Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
On 11/2/01 3:13 AM, Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 11/1/01 11:59 PM, Matt Egyhazy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: perhaps sun should make it more clear that petshop is not a benchmark and is instead a multi-faceted example of the possibilities offered by j2ee. i suppose they could rework it and create a benchmark out of it... microsoft is obviously misusing it...and that is possibly what they do best (and are 'doing right'), spread FUD. matt I don't get it though. Why shouldn't a fully functional demo also be able to be used as a real application (or the basis for one)? A pet store shopping cart isn't rocket science. Even if it is just an educational science project, why does it have to be that much more complex and overly done than an equivalent application in another language/system/os. The point being is that M$ claims that their version of PetStore is that much smaller and easier to understand. Well, if their version also has all of the same showcase of features, then how come it is still that much smaller/simpler/faster? Except that (someone noted) that the MSFT version doesn't have all the same features, so it's not a valid comparison. This is an opportunity for us to build a PetStore example w/o a middle tier, and see how that compares to the .NET version. geir I don't really see what M$ did as being FUD. What they are doing is showing the hypocrisy of Sun's marketing engine and the technologies that Sun is pushing on people to use. W a k e u p p e o p l e -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting He who throws mud only loses ground. - Fat Albert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/2/01 3:13 AM, Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 11/1/01 11:59 PM, Matt Egyhazy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: perhaps sun should make it more clear that petshop is not a benchmark and is instead a multi-faceted example of the possibilities offered by j2ee. i suppose they could rework it and create a benchmark out of it... microsoft is obviously misusing it...and that is possibly what they do best (and are 'doing right'), spread FUD. matt I don't get it though. Why shouldn't a fully functional demo also be able to be used as a real application (or the basis for one)? A pet store shopping cart isn't rocket science. Even if it is just an educational science project, why does it have to be that much more complex and overly done than an equivalent application in another language/system/os. The point being is that M$ claims that their version of PetStore is that much smaller and easier to understand. Well, if their version also has all of the same showcase of features, then how come it is still that much smaller/simpler/faster? Except that (someone noted) that the MSFT version doesn't have all the same features, so it's not a valid comparison. This is an opportunity for us to build a PetStore example w/o a middle tier, and see how that compares to the .NET version. Agreed. It could also be a useful comparison to see how simple Java of PetStore, w/o a middle tier compares to the full-monty, multi-tiered EJB PetStore implementation with data access objects, session beans, entity beans, state beans and all those other patterns. i.e. a way for developers to evaluate what the time performance differences are (both in development, maintenance and runtime) from doing things in a simple way, just at the web tier with a seperation from business logic, persistence presentation or using all the various EJB technologies related patterns. Then developers could see how it affects the amount of code, what different deployment topologies are open to them etc. It could help developers decide when EJB is right for them and when its not. I admit I'm an EJB-cynic myself after being burnt on several projects - however it would be good if the EJB-petstore could clearly demonstrate the benefits they offer over using just regular beans in a single-tier petstore. All that extra money we need to pay to the EJB vendors and all that extra code complexity must have some clearly demonstrable benefits right? :-) James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
They have: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/learn.html Justy - Original Message - From: Matt Egyhazy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop... perhaps sun should make it more clear that petshop is not a benchmark and is instead a multi-faceted example of the possibilities offered by j2ee. i suppose they could rework it and create a benchmark out of it... microsoft is obviously misusing it...and that is possibly what they do best (and are 'doing right'), spread FUD. matt - Original Message - From: Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop... on 10/31/01 5:41 PM, horwat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The J2EE PetStore application was created as an educational tool to showcase features available in a J2EE architecture. True, it has many more EJB's then required in a normal application but these EJB's are meant to be examples of how the technology can be used. PetStore shows by example various design patterns and is not meant to be a benchmarked application. Microsoft is really missing the point in their benchmark. In their port they don't have a middle tier. They are really missing the meat of the architecture and essentially have a database accessible through webpages. It is this middle tier, through the use of EJBs, that allows pluggability and reusability of business logic. It is quite telling that Microsoft targeted a strawman, non-optimized, education focused application instead of an official J2EE benchmark like ECPerf. Justy Why can't anyone learn that providing crummy examples only encourages people to create crummy applications? Most of the people out there probably try to copy/paste as much code as they can from samples like the PetStore. People who are even looking at it in the first place are looking at it as the 'Sun approved' way of creating applications. If you are really trying to educate people how to use various design patterns, then why not show them the right way in the first place? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in all of this? p.s. Sun's stock price is flying at a whopping 10.84. M$ must be doing something right (at 61.84). -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
The J2EE PetStore application was created as an educational tool to showcase features available in a J2EE architecture. True, it has many more EJB's then required in a normal application but these EJB's are meant to be examples of how the technology can be used. PetStore shows by example various design patterns and is not meant to be a benchmarked application. Microsoft is really missing the point in their benchmark. In their port they don't have a middle tier. They are really missing the meat of the architecture and essentially have a database accessible through webpages. It is this middle tier, through the use of EJBs, that allows pluggability and reusability of business logic. It is quite telling that Microsoft targeted a strawman, non-optimized, education focused application instead of an official J2EE benchmark like ECPerf. Justy - Original Message - From: James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:19 PM Subject: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop... http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/petshop.asp Its not a very fair comparison (suprise suprise) but from a quick look at the source code, it seems MS achieve their performance gains by not using EJBs :-) I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just regular JavaBeans and JSP... James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
on 10/31/01 5:41 PM, horwat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The J2EE PetStore application was created as an educational tool to showcase features available in a J2EE architecture. True, it has many more EJB's then required in a normal application but these EJB's are meant to be examples of how the technology can be used. PetStore shows by example various design patterns and is not meant to be a benchmarked application. Microsoft is really missing the point in their benchmark. In their port they don't have a middle tier. They are really missing the meat of the architecture and essentially have a database accessible through webpages. It is this middle tier, through the use of EJBs, that allows pluggability and reusability of business logic. It is quite telling that Microsoft targeted a strawman, non-optimized, education focused application instead of an official J2EE benchmark like ECPerf. Justy Why can't anyone learn that providing crummy examples only encourages people to create crummy applications? Most of the people out there probably try to copy/paste as much code as they can from samples like the PetStore. People who are even looking at it in the first place are looking at it as the 'Sun approved' way of creating applications. If you are really trying to educate people how to use various design patterns, then why not show them the right way in the first place? Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in all of this? p.s. Sun's stock price is flying at a whopping 10.84. M$ must be doing something right (at 61.84). -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
on 11/1/01 11:59 PM, Matt Egyhazy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: perhaps sun should make it more clear that petshop is not a benchmark and is instead a multi-faceted example of the possibilities offered by j2ee. i suppose they could rework it and create a benchmark out of it... microsoft is obviously misusing it...and that is possibly what they do best (and are 'doing right'), spread FUD. matt I don't get it though. Why shouldn't a fully functional demo also be able to be used as a real application (or the basis for one)? A pet store shopping cart isn't rocket science. Even if it is just an educational science project, why does it have to be that much more complex and overly done than an equivalent application in another language/system/os. The point being is that M$ claims that their version of PetStore is that much smaller and easier to understand. Well, if their version also has all of the same showcase of features, then how come it is still that much smaller/simpler/faster? I don't really see what M$ did as being FUD. What they are doing is showing the hypocrisy of Sun's marketing engine and the technologies that Sun is pushing on people to use. W a k e u p p e o p l e -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/petshop.asp Its not a very fair comparison (suprise suprise) but from a quick look at the source code, it seems MS achieve their performance gains by not using EJBs :-) I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just regular JavaBeans and JSP... James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
on 10/31/01 1:19 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/petshop.asp Its not a very fair comparison (suprise suprise) but from a quick look at the source code, it seems MS achieve their performance gains by not using EJBs :-) Ok. Now that is funny. I got a good laugh out of that one. Hi Justy! I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just regular JavaBeans and JSP... I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just Turbine and Velocity... Velocity already had results show it to be faster than JSP. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
on 10/31/01 1:54 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be interesting to have a Java competition - trying the various different techniques, tools and frameworks and seeing how each of them stack up to .NET. Comparing code complexity, performance etc. e.g. with beans or EJBs, with JDBC stored procedures or Turbine, with JSP or Velocity, then on a bunch of runtime platforms and databases and see how they stack up doing the same application. James Unfortunately, none of us in Jakarta land get paid to write demo's so I doubt you will see one soon. :-( Needless to say, Scarab is fully OSS, performs quite well and the code is a very nice example of how to write an extremely complex web app. http://scarab.tigris.org/ -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
FYI, Intel did a comparison of PetStore written using XMLC and no EJBs. Check out the following performance analysis done at the Intel performance labs that shows the PetStore app running 5x-10x faster on Lutris Enhydra than BEA, etc when implemented using XMLC instead of JSPs and using simple data objects instead of EJBs. http://www.lutris.com/media/LutrisSG.pdf Shawn James Strachan wrote: From: Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 10/31/01 1:19 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/compare/petshop.asp Its not a very fair comparison (suprise suprise) but from a quick look at the source code, it seems MS achieve their performance gains by not using EJBs :-) Ok. Now that is funny. I got a good laugh out of that one. Hi Justy! I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just regular JavaBeans and JSP... I wonder what the figures would look like if the PetStore were implemented along similar techniques using just Turbine and Velocity... Velocity already had results show it to be faster than JSP. I knew I shoulda said 'servlet' and not 'JSP' ;-) It would be interesting to have a Java competition - trying the various different techniques, tools and frameworks and seeing how each of them stack up to .NET. Comparing code complexity, performance etc. e.g. with beans or EJBs, with JDBC stored procedures or Turbine, with JSP or Velocity, then on a bunch of runtime platforms and databases and see how they stack up doing the same application. James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Shawn McMurdo mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Lutris Technologieshttp://www.lutris.com Enhydra.Orghttp://www.enhydra.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
One of the central points was there was less code. : http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/petshop.aspx It would be easy with Orion, EJBDoclet and a decent WAR file compatible page mark-up technology to beat the figures posted. Though not Apache, we should not discount SiteMesh.( http://www.opensymphony.com/sitemesh/ ) for the latter. Regards, - Paul H -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
On 10/31/01 6:45 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 10/31/01 1:54 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be interesting to have a Java competition - trying the various different techniques, tools and frameworks and seeing how each of them stack up to .NET. Comparing code complexity, performance etc. e.g. with beans or EJBs, with JDBC stored procedures or Turbine, with JSP or Velocity, then on a bunch of runtime platforms and databases and see how they stack up doing the same application. James Unfortunately, none of us in Jakarta land get paid to write demo's so I doubt you will see one soon. :-( I know! I was thinking about it another way. Most frameworks end up making a sample web application to demonstrate them in action. So Velocity, Struts, XMLC, EJBDoclet, JSP tags and so on could just pick the PetStore as a demo to build in the future (or at least a part of it). I've been thinking of converting PetStore to Velocity, as we have had questions on the Velocity list asking about just that. It would give a real apples to apples comparison. As jon notes, it's going to be a bit of work, although we could try to recycle the lutris simple beans... Now, if I could just avoid sleep... geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting You're going to end up getting pissed at your software anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Needless to say, Scarab is fully OSS, performs quite well and the code is a very nice example of how to write an extremely complex web app. http://scarab.tigris.org/ (Just to repeat myself) _I_WANT_IT_NOW_TO_REPLACE_THAT_STINK_OF_BUGZILLA_ (Basically, when is it going to be working?) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] MS makes a better PetShop...
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 10/31/01 6:45 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 10/31/01 1:54 PM, James Strachan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be interesting to have a Java competition - trying the various different techniques, tools and frameworks and seeing how each of them stack up to .NET. Comparing code complexity, performance etc. e.g. with beans or EJBs, with JDBC stored procedures or Turbine, with JSP or Velocity, then on a bunch of runtime platforms and databases and see how they stack up doing the same application. James Unfortunately, none of us in Jakarta land get paid to write demo's so I doubt you will see one soon. :-( I know! I was thinking about it another way. Most frameworks end up making a sample web application to demonstrate them in action. So Velocity, Struts, XMLC, EJBDoclet, JSP tags and so on could just pick the PetStore as a demo to build in the future (or at least a part of it). I've been thinking of converting PetStore to Velocity, as we have had questions on the Velocity list asking about just that. It would give a real apples to apples comparison. As jon notes, it's going to be a bit of work, although we could try to recycle the lutris simple beans... Now, if I could just avoid sleep... ;-) Thinking a bit more about it, using Turbine/Torque or Castor or EJBDoclet or JDO or whatever it should be a pretty quick job to make the 'simple beans'. Then sharing the same set of simple beans we could experiment with plugging in the various display/templating/framework technologies, Turbine, Velocity, JSP/tags, struts, XMLC, Cocoon/XSLT etc. James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
