Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 + "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA. Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD? I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on the record statements, if you're interested. I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 Ivan Chernyavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical discussions are of most importance here. You are sadly mistaken... Once again, all accusations and no proof. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] What to do when Python 2.5 is blocking your package from entering stable? (Agenda for next council meeting?)
Samuli Suominen wrote: I don't know about you, but when a package can't be stabled because it's depending on Python 2.5 and current stable is broken I'd like to start reverting stable keywords back to ~arch as noone wants to maintain broken junk. Latest being app-cdr/gtkcdlabel, and media-video/gaupol. Perhaps it should be a council agenda? Not much different from "slacking arches", it's simple, lack of active devs. What I would prefer, of course, is a list from one of python members to get it into stable but have no expetations, since I've asked it many times past 1-2 years. Unless there are any objections from the rest of the Python project, I'll try to get this done within the next 24 hours. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'. And not appreciate that addressing the 'corner cases' is very important and not to be dismissed. I have been a software developer (though not a Gentoo one) for 30 years, and learnt that lesson a long time ago. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] What to do when Python 2.5 is blocking your package from entering stable? (Agenda for next council meeting?)
I don't know about you, but when a package can't be stabled because it's depending on Python 2.5 and current stable is broken I'd like to start reverting stable keywords back to ~arch as noone wants to maintain broken junk. Latest being app-cdr/gtkcdlabel, and media-video/gaupol. Perhaps it should be a council agenda? Not much different from "slacking arches", it's simple, lack of active devs. What I would prefer, of course, is a list from one of python members to get it into stable but have no expetations, since I've asked it many times past 1-2 years. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Jan Kundrát wrote: The GDP has zero control over /proj/en/releng (well, in fact any developer can commit to that area, but you generally aren't supposed to change a project's web page without their approval). This document is maintained by releng. Ok Additionally, if you really expect any action from us (the GDP), please file a bug. We don't read every thread on the -dev ML. I bugged the releng =) lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Jeroen Roovers wrote: PS: I wanted to respond to many more of your comments, but then I always thought: who is this man anyway and does he perhaps contribute to Gentoo in some obscure way? Now I tend to think you don't. David seems to be a PMS contributor [1]. Cheers, -jkt [1] http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/pms.git -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:11:18 +0200 > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100 > > Mike Auty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> And yet still you keep fighting? Why? > > > > Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't > > given up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future. > > If you really think that "everyone else around here" but a small > minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a > future? Because a small number of people could deliver the improvements Gentoo needs to bring it up to speed. And once it's there, most of the people who are quite content to do the basic work necessary to let Gentoo sit around in its current state will be quite content to do the basic work necessary to sit around in its new, improved state. The problem, of course, is delivering the improvements, and it's not a primarily technical problem. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Luca Barbato wrote: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5 "The latest release of Gentoo Linux is: "Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, SH, SPARC, and x86 architectures. " Good point, doc team please update those places. The GDP has zero control over /proj/en/releng (well, in fact any developer can commit to that area, but you generally aren't supposed to change a project's web page without their approval). This document is maintained by releng. Additionally, if you really expect any action from us (the GDP), please file a bug. We don't read every thread on the -dev ML. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100 > Mike Auty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> And yet still you keep fighting? Why? >> > > Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given > up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future. > If you really think that "everyone else around here" but a small minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a future? Regards, Thomas -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Benedikt Morbach wrote: retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside. Please stop spreading FUD about PMS forcing some standards over Gentoo. Get your facts straight before commenting any further, thanks. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100 Mike Auty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And yet still you keep fighting? Why? Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future. > What do you *need* from Gentoo that you can't get for yourself? I don't need Gentoo. I do, however, think it would be a shame for all the work I've put into it over the years to go to waste. > There's a neat little project called Exherbo you might have heard of. > It's trying to build up most of those things, and they don't put up > with incompetent, unknowledgeable people, so I'm sure they'll let you > in, and I'm sure you'll be happy there. *yawn* http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/paludis-gentoo-and-exherbo/ > I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment, > where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and > people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they > can. I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the > people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff. You don't > seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to > contribute? ~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could > consider the environment you're working in, and be more accommodating > to it rather than fighting against it? The environment is a large part of Gentoo's problem. The focus needs to be taken away from the 'community' (where community means a bunch of Ubuntu users who make lots of noise on the forums) and put back into delivering a decent distribution. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 + "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 > | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the > | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently > | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current > | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers > | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA. > > Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If > not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD? I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on the record statements, if you're interested. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones | busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to | notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group | includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password | and give it to the GNAA. | Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD? - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkha4iIACgkQcAWygvVEyAIFQQCggICoBuSHXjdD7cbEY2yLr64/ d5wAoJDFQhCkZ8ki+BrvEuOKvkOOjMJ1 =9iLL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | And in amongst all of this, if you fight really really hard, you might, | after several months and a whole lot of people trying to kill you, | eventually get agreement upon some very minor technical point that's | necessary to start getting somewhere. So are you basically saying "You don't like fighting against Gentoo, and Gentoo doesn't like fighting against you?". I think I might have a mutually agreeable solution! 5:) And yet still you keep fighting? Why? What do you *need* from Gentoo that you can't get for yourself? A user base? A huge archive of ebuilds ready and working? A large set of mostly silent developers to maintain those ebuilds? There's a neat little project called Exherbo you might have heard of. It's trying to build up most of those things, and they don't put up with incompetent, unknowledgeable people, so I'm sure they'll let you in, and I'm sure you'll be happy there. Yet still, you seem to *need* something from Gentoo. Given that, it's bizarre that you're repeatedly disrespectful to members of its community. It seems an odd tactic to present yourself so poorly when you're in need of something... Obviously Gentoo is taking up a lot of your time (simply time writing replies to most every point raised on a thread), and you often seem frustrated by the level of people you have to work with. So perhaps you should direct your extensive energies exclusively at Exherbo? I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment, where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they can. I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff. You don't seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to contribute? ~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could consider the environment you're working in, and be more accommodating to it rather than fighting against it? Mike 5:) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkha4OsACgkQu7rWomwgFXpdywCfQMLkDJTxJpEYbBbZcz0dTToC Nk8AoJU3SSKg1Iz7mqjhHRJDlHLwVNR1 =JegH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Regardless of the points being made or their validity, this is the long-standing problem with Gentoo: excessive pride and ego and too little inability to cooperate internally, much less externally. Too many people are treating every discussion (turned argument) as life-or-death and are unwilling to concede anything. Sometimes you have to say, "I disagree, but not enough to make waves about it." This is why we've been bleeding old-guard developers (the quiet ones that got stuff done and didn't flame) for months and not gaining the people that carefully examine an environment before they commit. Some people just want to quietly go about their business and Do Things Right, not trudge through hundred-fatwa threads detailing the latest technical-turned-personal 'discussion'. For those of you doing the dev thing for CV points: which will your future employer appreciate more, fifty pseudo-technical flames or a few highly-informative documentation posts? A dozen new packages or a 20MB IRC log detailing what you hate about infra member $foo? Get over yourselves. Please. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
++ first posts People keep trolling and there is none to make them stop and that's sad to watch happening for years. I'd like to involve also thats y i subscribed but really whats the motivation to do so? Feels like all those discussions with users that have been made last year have been just wasted... When this is gonna end huh? :\ -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 Ivan Chernyavsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the > right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I > thought technical discussions are of most importance here. You are sadly mistaken. Gentoo hasn't been able to deliver technical progress for a long time, and anyone attempting to get anywhere will be met with constant attacks from people who are unable to admit to themselves that some fairly major changes are needed to allow Gentoo to keep up with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, Gentoo is now more concerned about pandering to its 'community' (in reality a small number of prolific forums posters who run Ubuntu) and stroking the egos of certain old-time staffers who haven't actually done anything for years. Getting anything done requires wasting large amounts of time dealing with people who: * do nothing but post links to that 'poisonous people' talk at random intervals and accuse people of being useless trolls, thus exhibiting all the hallmarks of being poisonous useless trolls themselves. * dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'. * think that their opinion is important despite them not understanding what's under discussion. * immediately claim that any thread with more than five posts is a flamewar. * deliberately disguise any point they may or not be making in horridly broken English (despite being a native speaker) just to wind people up. * yell about how projects 'aren't sufficiently inclusive' without ever bothering to either contribute themselves. or check whether anyone else has tried to contribute. * refuse to get involved in technical discussions on mailing lists or irc where people can disagree with them, instead keeping all their development discussion on their blog where they can delete any comment questioning their decisions. * pull silly emo tactics like posting "I'm not posting to this list any more" or "I'm telling everyone I'm killfileing you" or "I'm going to get my employer to end hosting Gentoo hardware unless you do everything I say" in an attempt to disrupt progress even further. * consider being in an uninformed majority more important than being correct. * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA. * use every given opportunity to disrupt things by saying "Why haven't the Portage people contributed to this?", knowing full well that the Portage person is busy doing other things. * conveniently forget that Portage is the thing holding Gentoo back. * will reply to any post suggesting that things are less than perfect with "well go away and fork Gentoo then". * think that any unanswered posts from people doing any of the above is sufficient reason for progress to be blocked until all the above are satisfied, which of course they won't ever be. And in amongst all of this, if you fight really really hard, you might, after several months and a whole lot of people trying to kill you, eventually get agreement upon some very minor technical point that's necessary to start getting somewhere. Which is a shame, because Gentoo could quite easily become a lot better than it is. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Benedikt Morbach schrieb: ++ I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of FUD, insults and other crap. I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.) I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people. What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back) In a perfect world, it, would be enough to look at one side of the thing. (Yeah, maybe in a perfect world, there would be no need to deal with stuff like this.) But this isn't a perfect world. So please don't make the mistake an go through this only reading it the way you want to see it. The problem with that kind of threads normally is, that people on both(!) sides would rather cut their leg off than admitting, that the other person might be right. (Not judging who was right, I have my opinion about it, but you might already know that.) Yes, there have been personal insults, but again on both sides and I would rather have hoped, that this wouldn't have happened. But again, this wasn't a one-side matter. You mention "tons of FUD". That is a really strong phrase and to be honest, I didn't see FUD from the Paludis folks. There was some mess about this Pkgcore bug, but that wasn't actually FUD, but the truth, which unfortunately turned into a really ugly thing. (And maybe got more attention than it deserved.) Now I guess that someone will reply to me, that this is off-topic on this list, which obviously nobody will answer you. But keep it low, no need to start over again. ;-) Bernd -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
++ I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of FUD, insults and other crap. I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.) I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people. What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back) --- Benedikt -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Ivan Chernyavsky wrote: Dear Gentoo developers, I am a grateful Gentoo user, I'm pretty happy with Gentoo and already have five installations of it, including one running a pilot project at my work. I started working with Linux 6 years ago and came through RH-SuSE-Ubuntu. None of them (except maybe SuSE 9.0 for some time) was perfect for me, until I tried Gentoo. So firstly, *thank a lot* guys. Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical discussions are of most importance here. But what do I see? For more than a week, I need to came through dozens of pure-fanatical e-mails having nothing except personal insults, FUD, idiotic wikipedia links etc. etc. I can't believe it was always like this. I really hope this is a temporary burst, caused by proposed EAPI change or something else, because it makes my plans of carefully introducing Gentoo as business-critical-ready-os to my employer much more complicated. Maybe it is time to create a list gentoo-flame or gentoo-fud and post everything there? I'm subscribed to several development and user mailing lists and I nowhere I saw anything like this, for so long period of time. Sorry if I don't understand something --- I'm really a new gentoo-dev reader, but I feel sorry for this brilliant distribution sinking in the darkness of FUD. Please please *do* stop it. Many thanks in advance, ++ Pretty much in the same situation and reading these emails for exactly the same reasons for a month or so. I am not impressed and a bit sad. -- Andreas Aronsson Mobil: +46 704 566 595 www.aron.nu "I'd rather have friends who care than friends who agree with me." - Arlo Guthrie -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:45:45 + "Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The userrel team has decided to request a 5 day ban to the -dev ml for > rbrown for his repeated misbehaviour, as noticed above, and that' now > in place. It's good to see the userrel team is active. Will you be looking at bug 228321 sometime soon please? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Arun Raghavan wrote: | On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Richard Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot | | This is the second time in 8 days that you are doing this. Please stop | filling our inboxes with this puerile trolling. | | Devrel team: I do appreciate that the Gentoo Way has been to keep the | communication channels as open as possible, but a line must be drawn | *somewhere*. Hello. The userrel team has decided to request a 5 day ban to the -dev ml for rbrown for his repeated misbehaviour, as noticed above, and that' now in place. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhaxXkACgkQcAWygvVEyAITtACbBf2V4PVlQFIRCDyw7Kq6M61L F1kAniSQm9B2Q35fwWec0ERe38dnR0l3 =zj14 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Gentoo developers, I am a grateful Gentoo user, I'm pretty happy with Gentoo and already have five installations of it, including one running a pilot project at my work. I started working with Linux 6 years ago and came through RH-SuSE-Ubuntu. None of them (except maybe SuSE 9.0 for some time) was perfect for me, until I tried Gentoo. So firstly, *thank a lot* guys. Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical discussions are of most importance here. But what do I see? For more than a week, I need to came through dozens of pure-fanatical e-mails having nothing except personal insults, FUD, idiotic wikipedia links etc. etc. I can't believe it was always like this. I really hope this is a temporary burst, caused by proposed EAPI change or something else, because it makes my plans of carefully introducing Gentoo as business-critical-ready-os to my employer much more complicated. Maybe it is time to create a list gentoo-flame or gentoo-fud and post everything there? I'm subscribed to several development and user mailing lists and I nowhere I saw anything like this, for so long period of time. Sorry if I don't understand something --- I'm really a new gentoo-dev reader, but I feel sorry for this brilliant distribution sinking in the darkness of FUD. Please please *do* stop it. Many thanks in advance, -- Ivan -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 18:06:17 Jeroen Roovers wrote: > In this case the attacks seem to be targeting a person who has been > attacking an entire ~300 person project for a few years now. Is it considered acceptable to attack someone as long as the attacker thinks they deserve it? > I honestly don't see how you are contributing to this project in general, Well, I'm no vapier, but I have filed the occasional bug, submitted the occasional patch, that sort of thing. > or in particular how you intend to contribute to this project by protecting > ciaranm against this project. 21:28 < dberkholz@> jmbsvicetto: bheekling did an outstanding job of stepping in on that thread and one or two others. he's setting a great role model for what the rest of us should do 21:30 let me read the mails again. 21:30 I guess peer-directed intolerance for bad behaviour is really the ideal solution for this 21:30 skim* 21:33 dberkholz: hmm, I can't find any mesage from bheekling on the -dev ml. Different name on the from address? 21:33 http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_4211dc4054de30f2ff52f6f8a2e2466e.xml might be it 21:33 < rane > Nirbheek 21:34 < dberkholz@> yeah, that's him. 21:34 (name is right, this might be the thread dberkholz is referring to) 21:34 < rane > or sth like that 21:34 < rane > no idea if it's his real name 21:34 thanks 21:34 < dberkholz@> the specific post i had in mind was a wikipedia reference to flames and personal attacks 21:35 < rane > yeah, this new idea of people telling others they are behaving like jerks 21:35 < rane > it looks like it worked 21:35 Indeed 21:40 < rane > silent majority stepping in and kicking ass 21:40 < rane > a great idea indeed 21:47 Maybe we can have a won't-tolerate-bad-behaviour pledge. :P -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 18:28 +0100, Robert Bridge wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:11:11 +0100 > Roy Marples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > > Nope. What I see as a problem is that the primary author and > > > current de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was > > > forcibly removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to > > > be written for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package > > > manager's development team with his constant not-so-subtle > > > attacks. Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over > > > the specification that defines the most important single feature of > > > Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its development. > > > No offense, but you're not a Gentoo developer any longer and you > > > shouldn't have a say in how *we* manage ourselves. You're more > > > than welcome to contribute code, fork, or whatever the hell you > > > want. This is open source, after all, but that doesn't mean you > > > should be allowed to hold the position of power over Gentoo that > > > you've been granted. > > > > I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people > > from -dev and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean > > for life. > > > > Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage > > participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time > > and time again over quite a number of years that they wont change no > > matter what. These people are posionous [1]. > > Slightly ironic for me to suggest this, but... > > It is the gentoo-dev mailing list, restrict posting to gentoo devs > (i.e. only people with a @gentoo.org email address) would make a lot of > sense. > Not really. It's there for general discussion of development matters, not developer matters. Some of the most interesting posts are from non-developers. gentoo-core is restricted. > Rob. Regards, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:11:11 +0100 Roy Marples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > Nope. What I see as a problem is that the primary author and > > current de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was > > forcibly removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to > > be written for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package > > manager's development team with his constant not-so-subtle > > attacks. Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over > > the specification that defines the most important single feature of > > Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its development. > > No offense, but you're not a Gentoo developer any longer and you > > shouldn't have a say in how *we* manage ourselves. You're more > > than welcome to contribute code, fork, or whatever the hell you > > want. This is open source, after all, but that doesn't mean you > > should be allowed to hold the position of power over Gentoo that > > you've been granted. > > I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people > from -dev and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean > for life. > > Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage > participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time > and time again over quite a number of years that they wont change no > matter what. These people are posionous [1]. Slightly ironic for me to suggest this, but... It is the gentoo-dev mailing list, restrict posting to gentoo devs (i.e. only people with a @gentoo.org email address) would make a lot of sense. Rob. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:06:21 +0100 David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The reason has already been explained multiple times, kindly stop > with the personal attacks and silly conspiracy theories. In this case the attacks seem to be targeting a person who has been attacking an entire ~300 person project for a few years now. I honestly don't see how you are contributing to this project in general, or in particular how you intend to contribute to this project by protecting ciaranm against this project. JeR PS: I wanted to respond to many more of your comments, but then I always thought: who is this man anyway and does he perhaps contribute to Gentoo in some obscure way? Now I tend to think you don't. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Donnerstag, 19. Juni 2008, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:20:10 +0100 > > David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" library using > > libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the > > library is missing, for example)? > > That's a pretty basic definition of a plugin. :) > > > JeR As example loading libm.so via dlopen. So I still would not name libm a plugin. Regards Matthias -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:20:10 +0100 David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" library using > libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the > library is missing, for example)? That's a pretty basic definition of a plugin. :) JeR -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
Olivier Crête a écrit : FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff While I haven't checked, I doubt that it uses libltdl to do so :) also kde-3.5 is using libtools dlopen for plugins Yep, but then again, it's for plugins. The real problem is with static linking : do we want to support it or not. That's the only question. I for one don't want to support it, none of the higher gnome packages properly work with it (even though we install both .so and .a libraries). Rémi -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On 2008-06-19 18:32, Nirbheek Chauhan uttered these thoughts: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Patrick Börjesson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts: > >> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force > >> it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all > >> if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a > >> different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start... > > > > I'm pretty sure "they" have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo > > community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations. > > The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of > time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Even if half > the community decides (out of the half that hasn't unsubscribed or > left because of them) not to reply to them, someone from the other > half will reply, and the thread will again spiral downwards. So how is that the Paludis guys fault? If you don't even expect "your guys" (ie. official Gentoo Developers) to handle a conversation over a mailinglist in a decent manner, how can you expect that from anyone else? > I recommend seeing (at least) the first 5-10 mins of > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 (posted > by Roy Maples in this same thread) Oh, I watched the entire thing, thank you. And from it i came to the conclusion that the Paludis folk aren't the ones being more poisonous. Sure, Ciaran can be an asshat at times, but he also brings up valid points most of the time (and by most i mean extremely close to always). The closest point of the "Identification" part of that presentation that I could find applying to Ciaran would be "Attempts to deliberately rile people", which doesn't even apply since he's personally insulting single individuals when he does it, and not the entire community. > > If you're > > not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source. > > That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with > > something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining). > > I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces. > We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's > ready, council will approve it. How exactly are they pushing it in everyone's faces? Actually, there's not much mension of PMS at all from the people actually working on PMS, but rather mension of EAPI. And that's when it's actually relevant. And EAPI _was_ deemed relevant quite a while back if i remember right (can't link to a specific discussion). And how exactly is "the developer community" going get to the point when they "think it's ready" without any discussion about it? > > I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking > > irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some > > people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just > > think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of > > just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you > > mess up. > > The problem, of course, comes up when one side likes to mix technical > replies with personal attacks[1][2][3][4][...]. > > > 1. > http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_23e836c773616f0e816f3c421900e1f1.xml > 2. > http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3bb49516dc83b9f4d8f80a4e67fa7a84.xml > 3,4,... Many many more. I don't intend to waste time searching for them. So you expect one side of the interraction (Ciaran in this case) to just sit silently and accept the insults, while he on the other hand can't say shit? Double standards anyone? -- () The ASCII Ribbon Campaign - against HTML Email /\ and proprietary formats. pgpedeqowdikt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
Am Donnerstag, 19. Juni 2008 16:22:19 schrieb Olivier Crête: > On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 14:08 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote: > > > Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a > > > "normal" library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail > > > gracefully if the library is missing, for example)? > > > > Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ > > or libpng. > > FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff also kde-3.5 is using libtools dlopen for plugins signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [GLEP] GLEP Purpose and Guidelines
Peter Volkov wrote: > ? ???, 17/06/2008 ? 09:48 +0200, Tiziano Müller ?: >> http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/glep/glep-glep.txt > > ?Your GLEP describes only two possible types: Technical and > Organizational. Yes. > At the same time type of your GLEP is informational. I can't use the new types since I have to write the GLEP in terms of the current GLEP system/types. > How > this could be? What happens with informational GLEPs? The current ones remain as they are. New ones should be one of the mentioned types. > > Why did you dropped motivation from the body while mentioning it in > workflow? There must be a motivation. But the motivation could also be made clear in the abstract. In other words: There must not be a separate section "motivation" to make the motivation clear. > ?What about previous copyright claim? What do you mean? (yes, in my proposal a "Credits" section is needed) > > Actually this is just a beginning of questions and generally it feels > this glep is not finished true, by intention. Just keep them coming. > and should borrow more ideas from the current > GLEP 1. It's even better to update GLEP 1 instead for writing new one... No. A GLEP should not be updated (besides trivial updates). That's one of the things I'm trying to make clear here. It's not good at all to have the GLEPs describing policies, they should only be used to propose/describe changes to our policies (example: even if some country's law system is based on the roman right you also don't get a copy of the roman right and a book with changes made to it if you want to look at the current right). In other words: GLEPs should only be patches or changesets. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 14:08 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote: > > Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" > > library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully > > if > > the library is missing, for example)? > > Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ > or libpng. FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff -- Olivier Crête [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:52:01 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > "oh noes, too many posts with the same 3 people replying everywhere > and spreading their minority irrelevant opinion as though it really > mattered! What a gargantuan waste of time and energy11!~" If you disagree with people's opinions, then you should try to convince them otherwise, not say "minority, STFU". > I mean, you guys don't have *any* control over how Gentoo works > anymore. No one wants you all around. More than enough people have > wasted their time and energy on you. Far more people have stopped > coming onto #gentoo-dev. People who contribute far more than you guys > have unsubscribed from the gentoo-dev ML. You guys have made even more > people *leave the project*. If people can't tell the difference between flaming and disagreeing, that's their problem. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Richard Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot This is the second time in 8 days that you are doing this. Please stop filling our inboxes with this puerile trolling. Devrel team: I do appreciate that the Gentoo Way has been to keep the communication channels as open as possible, but a line must be drawn *somewhere*. -- Arun Raghavan (http://nemesis.accosted.net) v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056 e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [GLEP] GLEP Purpose and Guidelines
В Втр, 17/06/2008 в 09:48 +0200, Tiziano Müller пишет: > http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/glep/glep-glep.txt Your GLEP describes only two possible types: Technical and Organizational. At the same time type of your GLEP is informational. How this could be? What happens with informational GLEPs? Why did you dropped motivation from the body while mentioning it in workflow? What about previous copyright claim? Actually this is just a beginning of questions and generally it feels this glep is not finished and should borrow more ideas from the current GLEP 1. It's even better to update GLEP 1 instead for writing new one... -- Peter. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:56 PM, David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:19:32 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton >> > On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> >> The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of >> >> time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. >> > >> > Replies? On a mailing list? Whatever is the world coming to? >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy > > I really don't see what context in your original post could change the meaning > from "oh noes, too many posts, it must be a flamewar11!" If you'd like > to clarify, I'd appreciate that very much. I meant "oh noes, too many posts with the same 3 people replying everywhere and spreading their minority irrelevant opinion as though it really mattered! What a gargantuan waste of time and energy11!~" I mean, you guys don't have *any* control over how Gentoo works anymore. No one wants you all around. More than enough people have wasted their time and energy on you. Far more people have stopped coming onto #gentoo-dev. People who contribute far more than you guys have unsubscribed from the gentoo-dev ML. You guys have made even more people *leave the project*. Stop. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:19:32 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > >> The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of > >> time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. > > > > Replies? On a mailing list? Whatever is the world coming to? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy I really don't see what context in your original post could change the meaning from "oh noes, too many posts, it must be a flamewar11!" If you'd like to clarify, I'd appreciate that very much. > > Who's "pushing it in everyone's faces"? > > Oh great, then I don't expect any more threads about PMS from the authors > :) Posting threads about PMS is not the same as "pushing it in everyone's faces". This is the appropriate list to discuss PMS issues, as far as I'm aware. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 14:19, Nirbheek Chauhan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >>> The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of >>> time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. >> >> Replies? On a mailing list? Whatever is the world coming to? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot -- Richard Brown -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: >> The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of >> time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. > > Replies? On a mailing list? Whatever is the world coming to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy > >> I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces. >> We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's >> ready, council will approve it. > > Who's "pushing it in everyone's faces"? Oh great, then I don't expect any more threads about PMS from the authors :) /me marks this reply for further reference -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] extending existing EAPI semantics
В Втр, 10/06/2008 в 21:10 -0700, Brian Harring пишет: > So... someone other then ciaran have a comment? >From ebuild developer point of view there is no difference if eapi is a variable of a function call. If changing eapi to a function call makes sourcing of ebuilds more sane, then it's good to have such change. -- Peter. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote: > The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of > time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Replies? On a mailing list? Whatever is the world coming to? > I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces. > We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's > ready, council will approve it. Who's "pushing it in everyone's faces"? -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] -bash: no job control in this shell
On 2008-06-19 00:46, vinod kumar uttered these thoughts: > I am geting this error when I login to my gentoo uml & it becomes very > difficult to stop any service. I am able to ssh into this uml from the host > without any errors. > > Any idea how to turn the job control back on...? I have googled for couple of > days in vain. please help me .. Sorry, but this list is not the right place for support. The gentoo-user mailing list is what you want. Patrick B -- () The ASCII Ribbon Campaign - against HTML Email /\ and proprietary formats. pgp5Ub5qZzKuE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Patrick Börjesson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts: >> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force >> it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all >> if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a >> different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start... > > I'm pretty sure "they" have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo > community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations. The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Even if half the community decides (out of the half that hasn't unsubscribed or left because of them) not to reply to them, someone from the other half will reply, and the thread will again spiral downwards. I recommend seeing (at least) the first 5-10 mins of http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 (posted by Roy Maples in this same thread) > If you're > not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source. > That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with > something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining). I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces. We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's ready, council will approve it. > > I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking > irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some > people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just > think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of > just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you > mess up. The problem, of course, comes up when one side likes to mix technical replies with personal attacks[1][2][3][4][...]. 1. http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_23e836c773616f0e816f3c421900e1f1.xml 2. http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3bb49516dc83b9f4d8f80a4e67fa7a84.xml 3,4,... Many many more. I don't intend to waste time searching for them. -- ~Nirbheek Chauhan -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts: > In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force > it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all > if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a > different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start... I'm pretty sure "they" have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations. If you're not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source. That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining). I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you mess up. -- () The ASCII Ribbon Campaign - against HTML Email /\ and proprietary formats. pgpSHxqxHyegJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thursday 19 June 2008 13:08:09 Rémi Cardona wrote: > David Leverton a écrit : > > Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig. > > I'd be in favor of having a _default_ configuration for Gentoo where > static binaries are never built except for some key packages (mainly for > rescue situations). > > That way, in a dynamic-lib only system, libtool will expand -l to > .so. Simple and easy. > > As Diego and others have been on a crusade to make sure that system libs > are used instead of bundled libs, static libs should also be outcast. I wouldn't be opposed to that, as long as there's a way to override it for people who need to. > > Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" > > library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully > > if the library is missing, for example)? > > Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ > or libpng. > > *None* of the binary distros out there ship .la files by default. Those > come with -devel packages. Proof that they are (almost) never needed. Well... the point is that removing them is a (potential) incompatibility with the package as shipped by upstream. As with the previous point, I suppose I could tolerate doing it by default, as long as users can choose to install them if they need. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
David Leverton a écrit : Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig. I'd be in favor of having a _default_ configuration for Gentoo where static binaries are never built except for some key packages (mainly for rescue situations). That way, in a dynamic-lib only system, libtool will expand -l to .so. Simple and easy. As Diego and others have been on a crusade to make sure that system libs are used instead of bundled libs, static libs should also be outcast. Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the library is missing, for example)? Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ or libpng. *None* of the binary distros out there ship .la files by default. Those come with -devel packages. Proof that they are (almost) never needed. And if an application chooses to dlopen() gtk+ or libpng, the ELF headers contain all the dependencies, so the actual content of the .la file is also useless in that case. Cheers :) Rémi -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote: > Nope. What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current > de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly > removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written > for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's > development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks. Quite > frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that > defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the > non-Gentoo developers from its development. No offense, but you're not > a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we* > manage ourselves. You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or > whatever the hell you want. This is open source, after all, but that > doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over > Gentoo that you've been granted. I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people from -dev and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean for life. Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time and time again over quite a number of years that they wont change no matter what. These people are posionous [1]. Whilst growing this set of balls, consider scrapping PMS I've yet to see any tangiable gain (from a user perspective) but plently of loss (developers, hair, temper). I'm leaving this list as I want no part in this any longer, so I won't read any replies. Thanks Roy [1] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thursday 19 June 2008 11:39:44 Luca Barbato wrote: > Corner cases as usual... What's that supposed to mean? -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
David Leverton wrote: On Thursday 19 June 2008 10:36:12 Luca Barbato wrote: 1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use) Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig. 2 load plugins using libtool support Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the library is missing, for example)? Corner cases as usual... lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thursday 19 June 2008 10:36:12 Luca Barbato wrote: > 1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use) Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig. > 2 load plugins using libtool support Why only plugins? What's to stop an application from loading a "normal" library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the library is missing, for example)? -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
David Leverton wrote: On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:51:15 Luca Barbato wrote: We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild. How do you decide when they're unnecessary? .la are used for : 1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use) 2 load plugins using libtool support if you have a pkg-config and you aren't building plugins you can do w/out them. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:51:15 Luca Barbato wrote: > We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la > files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild. How do you decide when they're unnecessary? -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:43:12 -0700: > Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo > take control over the specification that defines the most important > single feature of Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its > development. Leaving the history aside (I posted my personal feelings a week or so ago, no need to rehash), we have a serious practical problem with any proposal to take direct control of PMS and boot the main current contributors. The problem is -- like him or not, and like the problem or not, Ciaran is the ONE person who pushed and pushed on PMS, ultimately got the thing going, and continues to be the prime mover behind it. Now, part of that may be the result of the caustic style, no argument there. However, the fact is, he's and the other paludis folks are putting in the hard time that has to be put in to get the thing done. Nobody else is, either on their repository or on the Gentoo controlled one. In fact, last I knew, the Gentoo one tended not to be up to date and was often going weeks between any action at all (tho talk was of moving the active one to Gentoo hosting, don't know if it ever happened or not). Whatever our disagreements or dislikes for each other, the practical situation is that Ciaran and friends are doing what no one else took time to do, and, were we to forcibly remove them from their current activity on it, I'd put the chances at over 70% it'd end up stagnating pretty fast. That's the problem with scrapping and starting over, too, except even more so. I'd put the chances of a redo project ever reaching even /this/ far at less than 20%. So, while we might not particularly like the persons doing it, if we consider it worthwhile and useful to have done, we pretty much gotta work with them, because they /are/ doing it -- no one else was or is, nor, practically speaking, do I see anybody else having the discipline, time and talent to stick to it and get it done, right, regardless of likes or dislikes. Now, it may indeed be that having a working and adopted PMS or alike document isn't worth the trouble. It's the council, backed by individual devs, that ultimately decides such things. However, I believe it's worthwhile to face the facts, and know that if we /do/ nix this, we're probably nixing the entire idea for some years at least. Whether it's worth it or not I can't say, but that's what we're talking, in terms of cost, one way or the other. We either take this, like or not who doing it, or we don't, and we lose all the benefits, for now and perhaps forever, but also lose the poison. Honestly, I'm glad I'm not one of those having to make that decision. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:46:02 Luca Barbato wrote: > David Leverton wrote: > > On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote: > >> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda > > > > Lies and FUD. > > No Yes. > ...are you issuing a press release for exherbo? What the hell does Exherbo have to do with anything? -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:44:41 Luca Barbato wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
> >> Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?
> >
> > [ "${IDEA_ORIGIN}" != "Ciaran" ] && die
>
> I tend to agree.
The reason has already been explained multiple times, kindly stop with the
personal attacks and silly conspiracy theories.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:41:34 Luca Barbato wrote:
> > The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might
> > reasonably be using, even if only briefly. Do you really expect /all/
> > users doing a new installation to choose the scary beta instead of the
> > nice safe release?
>
> What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the
> havoc?
Is avoiding a beta version of something moderately important (like, say,
installation media) really equivalent to not updating for over five years?
> Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport
> of Ciaranm and crew, be it a "beta" tag, an obscure feature some
> developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not
> use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.
Please take the ad hominems elsewhere.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:39 AM, George Prowse wrote: > ++ > > It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of > developers will be thinking the same. ++ I'm not a developer, but I'm a Gentoo Summer of Code student[0] so maybe my experience counts for something: I approached this package manager mess with a completely open mind. I did not see any reason why someone would behave the way people were saying the Paludis folk did. I used to idle on both #pkgcore and #paludis, and occasionally contributed in both channels[1][2]. The result however, was a personal verification[3] of what people had been telling me all along. Ciaran deliberately steers threads in a completely non-productive direction[4] for reasons completely beyond me[5]. If I didn't know better I'd think he had been hired by someone to constantly plant seeds of disharmony and chaos within Gentoo. However, one thing is for certain. There is no doubt that his tactics waste everyone's time and energy. ~Nirbheek Chauhan who is quite depressed to see all this. 0. http://tinyurl.com/4plr7c 1. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8455 2. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8456 3. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/7939 4. Ciaran's reply (http://tinyurl.com/5sldtc) to Brian's mail (http://tinyurl.com/5zuf7y) and my reply to it (http://tinyurl.com/5l4ddk) 5. http://tinyurl.com/6b5sfb -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://getfiregpg.org iEYEARECAAYFAkhaErIACgkQb1z91vbKYbYIewCeO5eYks9Ep1WsqwcGXWMrB2xR XzEAoKdhmPCeixSoDOoK/8fJ+aWm4apc =KcMj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...
Alexis Ballier wrote: On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:18:19 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote: libogg and popt are now masked, and they'll wait a bit before return to ~arch that way. 2 months later, any news on this ? I've been using the unmasked versions so long; are we going to wait forever ? It's probably better to unmask it or revert the change at this point. We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] -bash: no job control in this shell
Hi, I am geting this error when I login to my gentoo uml & it becomes very difficult to stop any service. I am able to ssh into this uml from the host without any errors. Any idea how to turn the job control back on...? I have googled for couple of days in vain. please help me .. Vinod -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
David Leverton wrote: On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote: In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda Lies and FUD. No maybe it would be best for all if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start... Oh look, speaking of agendas ...are you issuing a press release for exherbo? lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
David Leverton wrote:
On Friday 13 June 2008 11:10:46 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
Interesting to note, however, that Paludis doesn't accept inline
comments, and this behaviour predates PMS.
There's a reason for Paludis not accepting them, and the same reason applies
to the question of allowing them in PMS or not, therefore PMS doesn't allow
them. There's no evil conspiracy here, just pure logic.
Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?
[ "${IDEA_ORIGIN}" != "Ciaran" ] && die
I tend to agree.
--
Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
David Leverton wrote:
On Thursday 19 June 2008 01:23:33 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
Considering that the "most recent official release" is 2008.0_beta2, I
don't see where you have a point, at all.
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5
"The latest release of Gentoo Linux is:
"Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, SH, SPARC,
and x86 architectures. "
2007.0 is also the first version listed at
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml
Good point, doc team please update those places.
The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might reasonably be
using, even if only briefly. Do you really expect /all/ users doing a new
installation to choose the scary beta instead of the nice safe release?
What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the
havoc?
Well I do have my opinion about this:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero/glep/migrationpath.rst
IFF we would like to be _that_ helpful for such minority of users.
Otherwise isn't that hard update portage in safe mode anyway.
Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport
of Ciaranm and crew, be it a "beta" tag, an obscure feature some
developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not
use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.
lu - putting in perspective
--
Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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