Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Alec Warner]

Jason Stubbs wrote:
> On Saturday 05 November 2005 03:53, Alec Joseph Warner wrote:
> 
>>As far as including news in the tree goes, news is repository bound
>>information.  Each repository may in fact have relevant news, and in
>>preparation for multiple repositories this is how the news should be
>>handled.  It goes with the rest of the repo-specific information.  That
>>is why it should be in the tree.
> 
> 
> I seem to be repeating myself... What's an example of repository-specific 
> non-package-specific news? Why does `emerge --changelog` not suffice for 
> package-specific news?
> 
> --
> Jason Stubbs

Ok so I'm pwned there ;)

emerge --changelog has no 'official' format.  I believe echangelog
actually puts the changes in the correct format for emerge -l to read,
however not everyone uses echangelog.  Many developers commit in an
incompatable syntax causing the parsing to fail.  This I believe, is an
implementation issue.  Obviously if someone is trying to get an upgrade
guide to users they aren't going to commit in an incompatable format.

We had a similar discussion before and many people wanted gentoo
changelogs to stay true to only gentoo changes, thus some think a gentoo
changelog is an inappropriate place to look for upgrade guides and
errata.  Changelogs are also not easy to search through and the current
syntax does not provide all the benifits of the syntax provided by GLEP 42.

So the options for using emerge --changelog are basically, updating the
syntax to make it useful, probably audit the changelog code in emerge to
make sure it works better ( even half decent 'entries' aren't grabbed,
but I haven't looked at the changelog code in months ).  This of course
makes emerge the newsreader you didn't want, although I'm sure the
eselect module could be modified to read Changelog's just as easily.

Also, nothing covers the expiration of Changelog contents vs expiration
of news items, since the news items are file independent, what if a
bunch of commits basically erases a relevant news item out of the changelog?

Certainly I would support either way ( news or changelog ) although in
the latter case there are some seperate issues that need to be worked
out ( mostly policy issues ).
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Jason Stubbs]

On Saturday 05 November 2005 03:53, Alec Joseph Warner wrote:
> As far as including news in the tree goes, news is repository bound
> information.  Each repository may in fact have relevant news, and in
> preparation for multiple repositories this is how the news should be
> handled.  It goes with the rest of the repo-specific information.  That
> is why it should be in the tree.

I seem to be repeating myself... What's an example of repository-specific 
non-package-specific news? Why does `emerge --changelog` not suffice for 
package-specific news?

--
Jason Stubbs
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:44:13 -0500 Dan Meltzer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| >``Content-Type:``
| >   Must be ``text/plain``. Mandatory.
| 
| Why have this header at all then?

Forwards compatibility.

| >   ``Posted:``
| >   Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001).
| > UTC time in ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be included. This
| > field is mandatory.
| How will prescendse be handled if two have the same date, and one has
| a time and the other doesn't?

Every existing client just sorts by filename... Multiple news items in
a day which require specific ordering is not exactly likely...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



pgpQ4ILvctsgy.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two

[Dan Meltzer]

>``Content-Type:``
>   Must be ``text/plain``. Mandatory.

Why have this header at all then?

>   ``Posted:``
>   Date of posting, in ``dd-mmm-`` format (e.g. 14-Aug-2001). UTC time in
>   ``hh-mm-ss +`` format may also be included. This field is mandatory.
How will prescendse be handled if two have the same date, and one has
a time and the other doesn't?

On 11/4/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Attached is a substantially reworked draft. I've restructured the whole
> thing, fleshed it out in places, clarified some parts and incorporated
> the useful stuff from previous discussions.
>
> Note: this is now GLEP 42 as allocated by Grant. AFAIK ChrisWhite's GLEP
> of the same number never made it to official status.
>
> Feedback from people who have something useful to say would be very much
> welcomed, assuming of course that they've read the GLEP.
>
> If you're going to rant on about XML or anything that assumes we have a
> static release Debian-style against which we somehow make
> 'corrections', you'll be ignored unless you come up with a very good
> justification based upon requirements and implementation rather than
> hand waving and incoherent rants. If you don't like it, you're welcome
> to write a competing GLEP.
>
> To give those who like arguing endlessly something else to go on about,
> the eselect news module is now upgraded to the 'suggested' tool for
> displaying news items. Look! I'm sneakily and evilly pushing a sekrit
> agenda here! Also, I murdered three puppies last night.
>
> Grant, please commit this to CVS. I'm too scared of docutils to do it
> myself.
>
> --
> Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
> Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
> Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm
>
>
>
>

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Danny van Dyk]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Xavier Neys schrieb:
| Danny van Dyk wrote:
|
|> Xavier Neys schrieb:
|> | Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending
|> | key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s.
|> | They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to
|> | check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some
|> | grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well,
|> | no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper
|> | hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini...
|> He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts...

| Had you read that bit properly, you would have noticed I was quoting
| someone else.
| Had you read the post to the end, you would have realised I understand
| that and that I even support it.

I did read your post to the end. Still, adding things like the above
quoted INI-File talk has nothing to do with this discussions. Therefore
my demand to 'stick to the facts'.

As to the quoting: Please mark quotes as such. There maybe people who
can memorize this whole thread and recognize unmarked quotes... i can't...

Danny
- --
Danny van Dyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDbAs9aVNL8NrtU6IRAmjKAKCNfYNw7SBbPttEK5ROy7PUgvWkGgCeM+ch
y/e6M4sYUp2/o3aZjBRREyI=
=pN17
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two

[Stephen Bennett]

On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 00:58:14 +
Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Feedback from people who have something useful to say would be very
> much welcomed, assuming of course that they've read the GLEP.

I think you might be missing a 'not' from the first Requirements
section. Unless you're secretly pushing an evil agenda to make everyone
use Debian by breaking everyone's Gentoo systems, that is.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 "Critical News Reporting" Round Two

[Ciaran McCreesh]

Attached is a substantially reworked draft. I've restructured the whole
thing, fleshed it out in places, clarified some parts and incorporated
the useful stuff from previous discussions.

Note: this is now GLEP 42 as allocated by Grant. AFAIK ChrisWhite's GLEP
of the same number never made it to official status.

Feedback from people who have something useful to say would be very much
welcomed, assuming of course that they've read the GLEP.

If you're going to rant on about XML or anything that assumes we have a
static release Debian-style against which we somehow make
'corrections', you'll be ignored unless you come up with a very good
justification based upon requirements and implementation rather than
hand waving and incoherent rants. If you don't like it, you're welcome
to write a competing GLEP.

To give those who like arguing endlessly something else to go on about,
the eselect news module is now upgraded to the 'suggested' tool for
displaying news items. Look! I'm sneakily and evilly pushing a sekrit
agenda here! Also, I murdered three puppies last night.

Grant, please commit this to CVS. I'm too scared of docutils to do it
myself.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm

GLEP: 42
Title: Critical News Reporting
Version: $Revision: $
Author: Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Last-Modified: $Date: $
Status: Draft
Type: Standards Track
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 31-October-2005
Post-Date: 1-November-2005, 5-November-2005

Abstract


This GLEP proposes a new way of informing users about important updates and news
regarding tree-related items.

Motivation
==

There are currently several ways of getting news out to our users, none of them
particularly effective:

* Gentoo Weekly News
* The ``gentoo-announce`` mailing list
* The Gentoo Forums
* The main Gentoo website
* RSS feeds of Gentoo news

A more reliable way of getting news of critical updates out to users is required
to avoid repeats of the various recent upgrade debacles. This GLEP proposes a
solution based around pushing news items out to the user via the ``rsync`` tree.

Requirements


An adequate solution must meet all of the following requirements:

Preemptive
Users should be told of changes *before* they break the user's system,
after the damage has already been done.

No user subscription required
It has already been demonstrated [#forums-whining]_ that many users do not
read the ``gentoo-announce`` mailing list or ``RSS`` feeds. A solution which
requires subscription has no advantage over current methods.

No user monitoring required
It has already been demonstrated [#forums-whining]_ that many users do not
read news items posted to the Gentoo website, or do not read news items
until it is too late. A solution that relies upon active monitoring of a
particular source has no advantage over current methods.

Relevant
System administrators who do not use a particular package should not have to
read news items which affect purely that package. Some news items may be of
relevance to most or all users, but those that are not should not be forced
upon users unnecessarily.

Lightweight
It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, web browser, email
client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.

No privacy violations
Users of the solution should not be required to provide information about
their systems (for example, IP addresses or installed packages).

Multiple delivery method support
Some users may wish to view news items via email, some via a terminal and
some via a web browser. A solution should either support all of these
methods or (better still) make it trivial to write clients for displaying
news items in different ways.

The following characteristics would be desirable:

Internationalisable
Being able to provide messages in multiple languages may be beneficial.

Quality control
There should be some way to ensure that badly written or irrelevant messages
are not sent out, for example by inexperienced developers, those whose
English language skills are below par or morons.

Simple for developers
Posting news items should be as simple as is reasonably possible.

Simple for users
Reading relevant news items should be as simple as is reasonably possible.

Compatibility with existing and future news sources
A news system would ideally be able to be integrated with existing news
sources (for example, Forums, GWN, the main Gentoo website) without
excessive difficulty. Similarly, easy interoperation with any future news
sources should not be precluded.

Specification
=

Overview


News items are published and delivered to users as follows:

1. A news item is written. The format to be used is described in
   `Ne

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Xavier Neys]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...
| 
| Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only

| biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged.

Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is
thousands of lines of code.


You know how to count. Well done.
You still haven't got a fscking clue what you're counting, though.
BTW, 1525 is not thousands.

Remove all the html that surrounds the content, i.e. the top bar with logo and 
menu, the left col with the menu and old news items, the right col with the 
ads and you're left with less than a thousand lines. Then remove the blank 
lines, comments and a bit of what I believe is dead wood but I know has 
nothing to do with GuideXML, and what's left already does a lot more than 
GuideXML to HTML transformation.



| Don't worry, some are even worse than you are, worse enough to claim
| that XML is hard to parse because "XML files from a programming
| perspective require extra logic to parse. Compare the following key
| value pair and xml tag pseudo parsing logic for configuration:
| entry
| Hit a >, tag1 as realized tag name, read until <, read ahead one to
| ensure a closing slash, read until > to get the tag name, compare tag
| name with previous tag name to see what tag it's closing. store value
| attached to tag1."

That is not parsing XML. That is parsing some arbitrary markup language
you just invented. Please read the XML specification, note how complex
some of the little used side features are, and then remember that a
compliant XML parser has to implement **all** of them.


I did not invent that, I was quoting another dev. FYI, the quote is the bit 
between the " characters.



--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Xavier Neys]

Danny van Dyk wrote:

Xavier Neys schrieb:
| Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending
| key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s.
| They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to
| check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some
| grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well,
| no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper
| hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini...
He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts...


Had you read that bit properly, you would have noticed I was quoting someone 
else.
Had you read the post to the end, you would have realised I understand that 
and that I even support it.


--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jan Kundrát]

On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:48 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying
> chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a
> generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto
> that...

https://bugs.gentoo.org/ please. It's quite hard to track list of wanted 
GuideXML improvements on several places.

TIA,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


pgpqWBt0LDHIT.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jan Kundrát]

On Friday 04 of November 2005 02:50 Lance Albertson wrote:
> After reading through the heated thread, I have yet to see your valid
> point of pushing xml for such a simple task. All I have seen is two 3rd
> grade kids arguing over a swing set. Please give some calm reasons for
> your opinion instead of voicing things in such a heated manner. Making
> assumptions about someone else's opinions gets you no where.

Well, my point is that our GLSAs and the associated code already handles stuff 
very similar to the `emerge --news` idea, namely:

a) displaying info only for users having affected package
b) support for arch-specific issues
c) version-specific messages
d) instructions on how to make a workaround and how to fix the problem 
permanently

So the code is here, as well as existing procedures to make new announcements, 
to list them on the website, forums etc.

The only disadvantage I'm aware of is that Portage would have to include XML 
parser, but as Brian said, most of Portage installations already do (sorry, 
I'm not familiar neither with stages nor with Portage, feel free to correct 
me).

WKR,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


pgpPa3rHqvhtW.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jan Kundrát]

On Friday 04 of November 2005 03:30 Luis F. Araujo wrote:
> The point is not about havig access to a web browser, but to have it
> installed in the respective box reading news.

Nope, I'd substitute "in the respective box" with "on the box that you're 
doing administrative tasks from". I rarely use physical console of a server.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


pgp65oUbhhPeV.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Dan Meltzer]

For simple translations? No.

For translations that span the same bredth (old version checking is
probably going to be fairly needed if we used xml as a main version,
and all other pretifying stuff is necessary.

On 11/4/05, Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:39 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > | > Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...
> > |
> > | Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only
> > | biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged.
> >
> > Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is
> > thousands of lines of code.
>
> Run a `less` or `gvim` or anything which actually displays the contents of the
> file. Are you sure that checking for obsoleted translations, highlighting
> top-page links and other stuff is really required for simple transformations?
>
> WKR,
> -jkt
>
> --
> cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
>
>
>

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jan Kundrát]

On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:39 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | > Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...
> |
> | Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only
> | biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged.
>
> Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is
> thousands of lines of code.

Run a `less` or `gvim` or anything which actually displays the contents of the 
file. Are you sure that checking for obsoleted translations, highlighting 
top-page links and other stuff is really required for simple transformations?

WKR,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


pgp4lr96TnyR4.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Translator: achumakov

[Jan Kundrát]

On Thursday 03 of November 2005 23:58 Brian Harring wrote:
> We've got a new lead russian translator, Alexey Chumakov (achumakov).

Glad to hear. docs-team alias will receive less [ru] bugs :-).

Welcome, Alexey.

-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


pgpjTn0VDgTQG.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] Themes for Webapplication

[Stuart Herbert]

Hi,

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 07:41 +0100, Rene Zbinden wrote:
> I am writing an eubild for an webapplication (wiki) and there are a lot 
> of themes available. I write an ebuild for these themes. Now my question 
> is where do I install these themes so that webapp-config handles them 
> correctly.

We need a little more information to help answer that question.  Which
wiki are you writing an ebuild for?

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo Developer  http://www.gentoo.org/
  http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/

GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu
Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319  C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C
--


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Nattfodd]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

>On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:42:51 + Tom Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>| There are currently 1066 open bugs assigned to
>| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>| 
>| Could everyone please take a moment to scan through them?
>
>Here's a more useful list. It's a summary of the maintainer-wanted
>ebuilds which are fairly unlikely to utterly suck. If anyone else wants
>to help out with the REVIEWED tagging, feel free. You can get canned
>responses to the most common screwups from [1].
>  
>

>102928: ebuild for media-sound/lltag
>102931: Ebuild for media-gfx/llgal


Hi,

I initially reported those two and am in the process of becoming a dev
for the text-markup herd (quizz posted almost a month ago). I'd like to
maintain them, if that is possible. And also dev-tex/rubber, which isn't
in your list but which already has some versions in the portage tree and
still needs a maintainer.


Regards,
Alexandre

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Bugday reminder

[kloeri]

Hi all.

Just a friendly reminder that bugday starts in a few hours and as usual
lasts most of the weekend. New this time is a new amd64 bugs category
but appart from that bugday should be it's old friendly self :)

As usual we gather around the campfire in #gentoo-bugs on
irc://irc.freenode.net and hopefully fix lots of bugs. The Bugday
website can be found at http://bugday.gentoo.org.

Hope to see lots of users and developers.

Regards,
Bryan Østergaard

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:12:17 -0600 Lance Albertson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| If however, we think its better to have a totally separate vhost like
| errata, we can be more flexible on the format we use to display. All
| I'm after from an infra POV is something simple for us to manage and
| scale.

As it stands, it's a trivially simple documentation format that can
easily be converted to any other sufficiently general markup format, so
long as said markup format doesn't impose any requirements for things
like heading structures. Would you like three lines of bash to convert
news items into a PDF? :)

There's nothing in this GLEP that precludes using the news files in
other locations. Being able to do so is even listed in the requirements
part. It wouldn't surprise me if someone just happened to come up with,
say, a forums auto-poster or a Gentoo news XML auto-conversion tool...
If there's anything in the GLEP that makes doing so harder than should
be necessary, please let me know because I'd consider that to be a
problem needing attention...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



pgpmm07woJa55.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Lance Albertson]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:37:16 -0600 Lance Albertson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's
> | are handled currently?
> 
> Sure, if that makes sense from an infra perspective.

Yes, I would prefer a standardish way to distribute these types of
things. GLSA's seem to work fine, but they are XML only currently and I
don't think this GLEP is heading that way. If we can nail down the
standards for local vs. remote (www) it should work fine from the infra
side.

> | Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually
> | reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of
> | the files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm
> | wrong, but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you
> | use a converter script to make it in guidexml.
> 
> There is no published official RST to guidexml conversion tool that
> anyone is prepared to admit to having written at this stage.
> 
> Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying
> chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a
> generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto
> that...

Yeah, I wondered about that too. I think the jist of this whole thread
is the www presentation level of it would most likely end up as guidexml
(unless there's a good reason to use something totally different). The
mean reason I say that is because I'm guessing most of the detailed
information will reside on the actual www nodes under the GDP which at
this time I'd like to keep in xml form. (And i'm only talking about the
presentation layer, not what you'll see in the tree).

If however, we think its better to have a totally separate vhost like
errata, we can be more flexible on the format we use to display. All I'm
after from an infra POV is something simple for us to manage and scale.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Danny van Dyk]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Xavier Neys schrieb:
| Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending
| key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s.
| They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to
| check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some
| grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well,
| no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper
| hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini...
He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts...

Danny
- --
Danny van Dyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa6+TaVNL8NrtU6IRAh7fAJ0WL6M0+KTk9uNQzIJxjS1YDVzN+ACdHMvY
OVj8WvjhXuN638d7Zs/Dvo8=
=zt9G
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Alec Joseph Warner]

Jason Stubbs wrote:

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:26, Xavier Neys wrote:


Nathan L. Adams wrote:


One source: http://errata.gentoo.org/

Push that out to as many alternate sources as you like (RSS feeds,
summaries in emerge --news, forums post, etc.), but make it known that
the website is *the* source (your alternate sources should point back to
it).


I beg to differ. The tree should be the central point because it's the only
known place where all users can receive relevant information on and for
each and every system they maintain right before they upgrade.
The warning and the logic that triggers its display should be part of
Portage. Sometimes, all that would need to be displayed is "run foo to fix
bar" or "Please do read http://bleh _before_ you upgrade foo".

If an "Upgrade guide to foo/bar for Gentoo" is required, you need an author
to write it, not extra code or an extra web site.



I probably shouldn't have included the sarcastic comment in my only other 
reply to this thread, but the rest of it was completely serious. People are 
under the mistaken impression that the ebuild tree is required to use 
portage. This is wrong and will become more and more wrong as time goes by.


If there is not a specific need for this news stuff to go into the tree then 
it shouldn't be there. If there is a specific need (ie. it is tied to 
packages) what difference is there to the existing ChangeLog?


--
Jason Stubbs


I am going to summarize a bit, and address your point.

Summary: people want small news tidbits to be distributed to all users. 
 Currently the suggestion is tree-based.  Portage should have code to 
detect news elements after a sync and copy relevant elements to a uesr 
specified news directory.  The news should be in a human readable format 
(XML, RST, pig latin, don't care at this point see below).  Portage 
should post-sync, print a message noting the number of unread but 
relevant news messages.  Users can use whatever means of reading them 
that they like.  IMHO, emerge --news can go to hell in a handbasket, I'd 
rather just friggin use less, but hey, if you write the code...


News messages should contain minimal information necessary to carry 
relevant information including affected packages, and a link to some 
sort of documentation, be it gentoo-wiki, or official package docs, or 
whatever.


For those without internet access 24/7, there may be an option required 
to fetch these links.  In the case of say, dial-up where someone only 
has network say, 4 hours a day, they may wish to sync their tree, and 
spider the docs links so they may view them locally.  Machines with no 
outside network ( internal production servers ) may also wish to make 
use of this.  In the case of online guides, we cannot necessarily define 
their content, it may be XML, it may be plain text.  I do not see how 
conceeding that a user may need a web browser SOMEWHERE, is that big of 
a tradeoff, especially if the content is already locally available.


As far as including news in the tree goes, news is repository bound 
information.  Each repository may in fact have relevant news, and in 
preparation for multiple repositories this is how the news should be 
handled.  It goes with the rest of the repo-specific information.  That 
is why it should be in the tree.


However, in the case of a remote tree, some extra API calls may be 
required.  However, it is up to the class implementor to implement those 
calls, not the original portage team ( unless you want to support remote 
trees yourself, in which case that duty falls to you ).  The only other 
thing was no tree but a binpkg repo, in which case in savior, binpkg 
repo should have news elements build in ( a repo, just all built 
packages ).  In stable, news should probably be added to the binpackage 
if it's listed in the packages-affected.


For the XML vs RST.  I personally don't want to read XML files in a 
console, or install anything that makes it look all pretty for me, RST 
is plenty good enough.  Since Ciaran has graciously written all the code 
for it already, I don't see any reason not to use it.  RST is pretty 
simple to migrate to a new format anyhow, and a converter could be 
easily whipped up to transform it to guideXMl for errate.g.o if that is 
what is desired ( not a bad idea IMHO ).


I forgot one other thing, that being perhaps a red NEWS that shows up 
next to affected packages during an emerge -pv , informing you 
that important news is available for a package you are about to install.


So yeah, this is a long thread :0

Alec Warner (Antarus)
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:37:16 -0600 Lance Albertson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's
| are handled currently?

Sure, if that makes sense from an infra perspective.

| Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually
| reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of
| the files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm
| wrong, but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you
| use a converter script to make it in guidexml.

There is no published official RST to guidexml conversion tool that
anyone is prepared to admit to having written at this stage.

Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying
chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a
generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto
that...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



pgptD2mgbtnrt.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Dev: markusle

[Donnie Berkholz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Lisa Seelye wrote:
| We have quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics packages?

Sure we do. I've been maintaining most of them, and it's been great to
see more packages showing up recently (and more help, too).

Donnie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa6r2XVaO67S1rtsRAiNNAJwPALcjGxlWpLuFzRO3CaFQNUVvLwCfX2MI
GGnnp06yeZB6ZiMnZm+FwBI=
=lwy4
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...
| 
| Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only
| biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged.

Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is
thousands of lines of code.

| Don't worry, some are even worse than you are, worse enough to claim
| that XML is hard to parse because "XML files from a programming
| perspective require extra logic to parse. Compare the following key
| value pair and xml tag pseudo parsing logic for configuration:
| entry
| Hit a >, tag1 as realized tag name, read until <, read ahead one to
| ensure a closing slash, read until > to get the tag name, compare tag
| name with previous tag name to see what tag it's closing. store value
| attached to tag1."

That is not parsing XML. That is parsing some arbitrary markup language
you just invented. Please read the XML specification, note how complex
some of the little used side features are, and then remember that a
compliant XML parser has to implement **all** of them.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



pgp1xHd4M891b.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Daniel Ostrow]

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 12:08 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > 
> > Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of
> > Gentoo gives you the wrong impression.  The GDP's policy applies to the
> > GDP.  That is not a global developer policy of any kind.  It is a policy
> > by a project, for that project.
> > 
> > If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the
> > games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on
> > what I do.  If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would.
> > 
> > At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update
> > information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in
> > arguing it with you.
> > 
> 
> So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely
> 'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the
> DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat,
> a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security
> need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows
> what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different
> project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto
> the website...

Yet more proof that you don't understand what you are talking
about...not meant to be insulting just stating that you don't. Just
because some groups (DevRel, Infra, etc.) have farther reaching tendrils
doesn't mean that every group does. 

For example, each arch team has a slightly different way to go about
allowing package maintainers to keyword their own packages on a given
arch...some teams insist that the maintainer join the arch team...some
allow for special arrangements (they all follow the same basic
guidelines).

With documentation there are actually 2 different types, those bits that
fall under the GDP and those that fall under the herd that uses them.
Take Chris' games example, the games team is free to release an FAQ in
plain text in Pig Latin if they want to, so long as it is on their own
project page. The GDP policy -only- covers the GDP...not anyone else, so
if Chris wanted to move his plain text Pig Latin doc to the official
Docs repository he would have to make an English version and make it
GuideXML. That's it plain and simple.

> The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output)
> would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc
> rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish
> a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then
> it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions
> should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is
> just silly.

Another thing you seem to be missing is that the GLEP specifically
separates the news from the documentation. The news or errata is just a
plain text *short* summary that something needs to be attended to. It
can, but does not always have to, link to further more detailed
*documentation*. Note then that what would go up on errata.g.o in this
case would be the *summary* (which would not necessarily be governed by
the GDP or it's policies) and *not* the full documentation. Said summary
would contain links to any relevant *documentation* which would then be
governed by the GDP if said documentation was in fact Gentoo created and
in the official Docs repository.

-- 
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jon Portnoy]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 12:08:23PM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > 
> > Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of
> > Gentoo gives you the wrong impression.  The GDP's policy applies to the
> > GDP.  That is not a global developer policy of any kind.  It is a policy
> > by a project, for that project.
> > 
> > If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the
> > games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on
> > what I do.  If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would.
> > 
> > At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update
> > information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in
> > arguing it with you.
> > 
> 
> So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely
> 'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the
> DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat,
> a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security
> need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows
> what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different
> project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto
> the website...

No, he's saying you're talking out of your behind. And you continue to 
do so

Gentoo projects have their own areas of responsibility, the GDP's area 
of responsibility is the GDP, devrel's area of responsibility is 
developers, infra's area of responsibility is infrastructure.

Thank you, come again

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Lance Albertson wrote:
> Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
> 
It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media.  I'm not making any
assumptions on this.  It's really not our fault when the user base
doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen.

Thank you for proving my point.

>>
>>
>>And what point would that be exactly? Console messages are ineffective?
> 
> 
> That you haven't completely read documentation that was right on your
> screen. I mean *read*, not glanced. I've finally read through ciaranm's
> GLEP and I get the impression you only skimmed through it. I suggest you
> stick with exact wording from the GLEP for discussion on this thread
> rather than assumptions made on arguments.
> 
> Cheers-
> 

Actually, Lance, I have read it. Where does it say anything about a
central web repository for the docs in question? Where does it specify
the format of those? It doesn't. It assumes that all Gentoo officially
cares about is the emerge --news output. Any external docs can live
anywhere in any format. Users have asked for a central location for
these documents and the transient nature of your current local portage
tree doesn't give that.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa5cY2QTTR4CNEQARAhBcAJ4oT9Wwf5ohK4prQgDSQNGCKoE3WwCeNCct
C16jLYYC4zKemRdzcJFNrr4=
=IQ1Y
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Grobian wrote:
> Danny van Dyk wrote:
> 
>> IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application
>> over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his
>> editor of choice, right from the console.
> 
> 
> This is an important aspect for sure, but why can't such file be
> generated from a marked up one?  Because the same message will be put in
> multiple forms (ideally) it is best to have a version with all the
> required meta-data to generate all the other formats, because if you
> have to add such meta-data it's usually much worse (= manual or
> conditional human work).
> 
> Some people like reading console messages, others plain text mail
> messages, others want html marked up mail messages, other others like
> reading an rss-feed, and of course there are people that like to read
> the full fledged funky marked up with all hyperlinks possible html
> version on the web.
> I think the only real importance is that all representations can easily
> be generated from the original source, be that XML, reStructuredText or
> any other format.
> 
> With regard to being it hard to write or not, I think these kind of
> messages are very well suited for templates, so it is just a matter of
> filling in the message, which should make the underlying format not so
> important.
> 
> Just my €0.02 on the XML vs. plain text discussion.
> 
> 

A very good point. You could even offer a web form for those who don't
even want to edit the template by hand.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa5YF2QTTR4CNEQARAly+AKCjnT+yONZPAmTO+cccByWeQcaVsQCfQ4Vb
K8Cwc/QQNKxAe/Q0VknIOiU=
=2Dow
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of
> Gentoo gives you the wrong impression.  The GDP's policy applies to the
> GDP.  That is not a global developer policy of any kind.  It is a policy
> by a project, for that project.
> 
> If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the
> games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on
> what I do.  If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would.
> 
> At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update
> information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in
> arguing it with you.
> 

So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely
'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the
DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat,
a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security
need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows
what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different
project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto
the website...

The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output)
would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc
rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish
a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then
it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions
should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is
just silly.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa5WH2QTTR4CNEQARAlERAKCeVue4ATD4fXBgLGdRAWt4Gi7vWgCcCs7R
w/Pvjk9vv2C00HmrTkhBnHU=
=Eiba
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Lance Albertson]

Nathan L. Adams wrote:

>>>It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media.  I'm not making any
>>>assumptions on this.  It's really not our fault when the user base
>>>doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen.
>>>
>>>Thank you for proving my point.
>>>
> 
> 
> And what point would that be exactly? Console messages are ineffective?

That you haven't completely read documentation that was right on your
screen. I mean *read*, not glanced. I've finally read through ciaranm's
GLEP and I get the impression you only skimmed through it. I suggest you
stick with exact wording from the GLEP for discussion on this thread
rather than assumptions made on arguments.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
>>I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions
>>existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just
>>because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to
>>exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to
>>delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to
>>distribute information...
> 
> 
> Ehh...
> 
> It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media.  I'm not making any
> assumptions on this.  It's really not our fault when the user base
> doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen.
> 
> Thank you for proving my point.
> 

And what point would that be exactly? Console messages are ineffective?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa5Ls2QTTR4CNEQARAm5NAKCiOQEkK07nz4KFfSY+5uzeUNMN2wCfUe1Q
LSTG+k4lWKo6v6Wl1AR+424=
=Ar9r
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Grobian]

Danny van Dyk wrote:

IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application
over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his
editor of choice, right from the console.


This is an important aspect for sure, but why can't such file be 
generated from a marked up one?  Because the same message will be put in 
multiple forms (ideally) it is best to have a version with all the 
required meta-data to generate all the other formats, because if you 
have to add such meta-data it's usually much worse (= manual or 
conditional human work).


Some people like reading console messages, others plain text mail 
messages, others want html marked up mail messages, other others like 
reading an rss-feed, and of course there are people that like to read 
the full fledged funky marked up with all hyperlinks possible html 
version on the web.
I think the only real importance is that all representations can easily 
be generated from the original source, be that XML, reStructuredText or 
any other format.


With regard to being it hard to write or not, I think these kind of 
messages are very well suited for templates, so it is just a matter of 
filling in the message, which should make the underlying format not so 
important.


Just my €0.02 on the XML vs. plain text discussion.


--
Fabian Groffen
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 11:05 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> > 
> >>So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
> >>lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
> >>without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
> > 
> > 
> > less /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/txt/install.txt
> > 
> > No web browser, so can you please quit beating this dead horse.  It
> > isn't even funny anymore.
> > 
> 
> That's a great and wonderful alternative, but the policy is to publish
> documentation in GuideXML:

No it isn't...

> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3

Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of
Gentoo gives you the wrong impression.  The GDP's policy applies to the
GDP.  That is not a global developer policy of any kind.  It is a policy
by a project, for that project.

If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the
games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on
what I do.  If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would.

At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update
information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in
arguing it with you.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Jason Stubbs]

On Friday 04 November 2005 23:26, Xavier Neys wrote:
> Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> > One source: http://errata.gentoo.org/
> >
> > Push that out to as many alternate sources as you like (RSS feeds,
> > summaries in emerge --news, forums post, etc.), but make it known that
> > the website is *the* source (your alternate sources should point back to
> > it).
>
> I beg to differ. The tree should be the central point because it's the only
> known place where all users can receive relevant information on and for
> each and every system they maintain right before they upgrade.
> The warning and the logic that triggers its display should be part of
> Portage. Sometimes, all that would need to be displayed is "run foo to fix
> bar" or "Please do read http://bleh _before_ you upgrade foo".
>
> If an "Upgrade guide to foo/bar for Gentoo" is required, you need an author
> to write it, not extra code or an extra web site.

I probably shouldn't have included the sarcastic comment in my only other 
reply to this thread, but the rest of it was completely serious. People are 
under the mistaken impression that the ebuild tree is required to use 
portage. This is wrong and will become more and more wrong as time goes by.

If there is not a specific need for this news stuff to go into the tree then 
it shouldn't be there. If there is a specific need (ie. it is tied to 
packages) what difference is there to the existing ChangeLog?

--
Jason Stubbs
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions
> existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just
> because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to
> exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to
> delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to
> distribute information...

Ehh...

It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media.  I'm not making any
assumptions on this.  It's really not our fault when the user base
doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen.

Thank you for proving my point.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Danny van Dyk]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nathan L. Adams schrieb:
| 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't
| stored as a simple flat file) ;)
On the other hand one could say that there are Gentoo-Devs which are
biased against anything that can work without using XML.

To quote Wikipedia.org[1]:
"The Extensible Markup Language (XML) is a W3C-recommended
general-purpose markup language for *creating special-purpose markup
languages*." (Emphasis added by me.)

There are occasions where creating a completely new markup language with
XML does make sense. However, this particular enhancement does not need it.

IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application
over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his
editor of choice, right from the console.

Danny
- --
Danny van Dyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa4bFaVNL8NrtU6IRAgQDAJ93+rj1sI6sADnq3QCLpCWE3BYx4gCfdrv3
/6p4ZR5A0kR7akOoCEuT/44=
=8moA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Xavier Neys wrote:
> Thierry Carrez wrote:
> 
>> Paul de Vrieze wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such
>>> a good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an
>>> e-mail format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't
>>> recognize it).
>>>
>>> Also having double files containing the same information is broken by
>>> design.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK so there is two options :
>>
>> 1- every "news" requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web
>> location
>> Pros:
>> - non-portage user can easily browse errata
>> - consistency in documentation
>> Cons:
>> - work overhead for errata-writing dev
>>
>> 2- every "news" requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is
>> optional
>> Pros:
>> - flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc
>> - external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can
>> be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient
>> Cons:
>> - lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse
>>
>> We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work
>> overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we
>> can't, I tend to favor the second solution...
> 
> 
> Both can be done.
> Posting news items on our front page can be done today, publishing
> upgrade notes can be done today, grouping all upgrade documents in an
> upgrade category on the main doc index (docs.gentoo.org) can be done
> today, having upgrade.gentoo.org point to it can be done one hour later.
> All of the above does not require a single line of code.
> 
> I suppose the news snippets could also be integrated in
> packages.gentoo.org, hopefully without requiring too much work.
> 

Great, then I hope that the scope of the GLEP gets expanded to include:

- - central website (ugrade.g.o or errata.g.o or whatever)
- - external docs follow existing doc policy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa4d82QTTR4CNEQARApNQAJ9RzRxl1y/KRd/5xhVh0gQuwU4OEQCdFofK
pC5D+BbzmgOcSDdW3IookUs=
=J44D
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
>>So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
>>lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
>>without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
> 
> 
> less /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/txt/install.txt
> 
> No web browser, so can you please quit beating this dead horse.  It
> isn't even funny anymore.
> 

That's a great and wonderful alternative, but the policy is to publish
documentation in GuideXML:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa4a42QTTR4CNEQARAqGnAJ4gfJLCMmK5/tU5lmnszaR1fW1MSQCfTyYK
wh/HaL69456P9eOqc7sabDc=
=D8T6
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:24 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
>>*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
>>a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
>>get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
>>appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
>>standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Then I guess we're wasting our time getting the Handbook converted to
> plain text for *every* release.  It's on the CD itself, have a look.  No
> need for a web browser of any kind.
> 
> You really need to check your facts before posting.
> 

I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions
existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just
because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to
exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to
delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to
distribute information...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa4U92QTTR4CNEQARAjkzAJ0YS2F/6zWLZeLQ0tbvIYNIqoe1PQCfcV53
bLnhNPoCJDNGrHuIw3pxEEA=
=rSj8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> On Friday 04 November 2005 14:38, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
>>Paul de Vrieze wrote:
>>
>>>What is worse is that some
>>>users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time
>>>they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But
>>>they will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews.
>>
>>Why would a "SomeSQL 1.0 to 1.1" guide ever need to dissappear? Surely
>>errata.g.o would have archiving/searching. But I do see your point
>>about emerge filtering out the unwanted stuff.
> 
> 
> It would be hidden in the forrest. Even if I did a search on SomeSQL, it 
> might return a number of news items on SomeSQL. That is besides the fact 
> that I have 737 packages installed. I'm not going to search news on all 
> of them. Archiving would of course be provided, but searching is not 
> usefull for updating.

You update all 737 packages with each emerge? I don't see any validity
in your point; a nice http://errata.g.o/ site with archived guides and
search wouldn't preclude 'emerge --news' in any way.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa4R12QTTR4CNEQARApTFAKCL3rZ88STZtuu1EZUw/iSFf8NJMACfXtHu
UyKLcgsYF4+nC+ezKSC4Of8=
=a4Ki
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Lance Albertson]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

> News Item Source
> 
> 
> News items are to be made available via the Portage tree. This removes any
> need for polling of a remote source.
> 
> A new directory, ``news/``, will be created in the main tree.  Commit access
> to this directory will be handled in the same way as for the rest of the
> tree. This directory will contain further subdirectories named
> ``-mm/``, where ```` is the current year and ``mm`` is the current
> month number (01 for January through 12 for December) -- this extra level
> of separation will help keep news items more manageable.

Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's are
handled currently? The main point here being that we can move the actual
cvs location outside of gentoo-x86 and put it in somewhere more
appropriate for translators. The example here is, all the GLSA's are
currently not in the gentoo-x86 module. The regeneration script on our
master mirror syncs with the gentoo module location for GLSA's and
copies those files in its current location in the tree.

Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually
reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of the
files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you use a
converter script to make it in guidexml. Then you actually commit both
the rst and xml file to cvs. Could we possibly do the same here to make
it simple? Automation is great where it fits best. I'd rather not deal
with conversion on the server end, I'd prefer the conversion be handled
by the developer/translator as they can double check the conversion
script better than the script itself can.

Poke at that :-)

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Xavier Neys]

Nathan L. Adams wrote:

One source: http://errata.gentoo.org/

Push that out to as many alternate sources as you like (RSS feeds,
summaries in emerge --news, forums post, etc.), but make it known that
the website is *the* source (your alternate sources should point back to
it).


I beg to differ. The tree should be the central point because it's the only 
known place where all users can receive relevant information on and for each 
and every system they maintain right before they upgrade.

The warning and the logic that triggers its display should be part of Portage.
Sometimes, all that would need to be displayed is "run foo to fix bar" or 
"Please do read http://bleh _before_ you upgrade foo".


If an "Upgrade guide to foo/bar for Gentoo" is required, you need an author to 
write it, not extra code or an extra web site.


--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Xavier Neys]

Thierry Carrez wrote:

Paul de Vrieze wrote:


Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a 
good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail 
format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it).


Also having double files containing the same information is broken by 
design.



OK so there is two options :

1- every "news" requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web
location
Pros:
- non-portage user can easily browse errata
- consistency in documentation
Cons:
- work overhead for errata-writing dev

2- every "news" requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional
Pros:
- flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc
- external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can
be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient
Cons:
- lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse

We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work
overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we
can't, I tend to favor the second solution...


Both can be done.
Posting news items on our front page can be done today, publishing upgrade 
notes can be done today, grouping all upgrade documents in an upgrade category 
on the main doc index (docs.gentoo.org) can be done today, having 
upgrade.gentoo.org point to it can be done one hour later.

All of the above does not require a single line of code.

I suppose the news snippets could also be integrated in packages.gentoo.org, 
hopefully without requiring too much work.


--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Xavier Neys]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:33:37 +0100 Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| "Once this tool is implemented and well tested it can be integrated
| into portage."

can ! will. It might, but don't count on it.

| GLSA already contains stuff for marking items as valid only for given
| systems, for "injecting" them etc. Why don't use existing code? Why
| duplication?

Because it's quicker to invent a wheel which is actually round.


Reinventing rounder wheels seems to be a common hobby.


| > You think XML magically makes things compatible? Then I suggest you
| > write a GuieXML to Docbook conversion tool, and see how many
| > thousand lines of XSLT it takes. All XML does is move the
| > conversion and parsing problems to a different, more complex level.
| 
| I'm not familiar with DocBook, but I doubt I'll need thousands of

| lines of code.

Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...


Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only biased 
against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged.
Don't worry, some are even worse than you are, worse enough to claim that XML 
is hard to parse because "XML files from a programming perspective require 
extra logic to parse. Compare the following key value pair and xml tag pseudo 
parsing logic for configuration:

entry
Hit a >, tag1 as realized tag name, read until <, read ahead one to ensure a 
closing slash, read until > to get the tag name, compare tag name with 
previous tag name to see what tag it's closing. store value attached to tag1."


Just a short sample against metadata.xml using ruby/dom instead of python/sax:
http://dev.gentoo.org/~neysx/metax.rb

Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending key=value 
flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s.
They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to check for 
unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some grouping and you 
introduce [sections], which you have to check as well, no doubles, no missing 
ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper hierarchy and you use 
key=/path/to/another/file.ini...


Both have reasons to be used, neither is a one-fits-all answer.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic, and, FWIW, I believe the suggested format 
is adequate because it is light, easy to write, read, parse, and even 
transform into XML should one process ever need it. Besides, it is very much 
standard, if it's good enough for billions of mail and http messages a day, 
it's probably good enough for us.


--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\


--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Getting Important Updates To Users

[Xavier Neys]

Duncan wrote:

Number of users subscribed to gentoo-announce: 7,988
Total number of GETs on our home page and news feed in a *single day*: 75,302 
from 19,240 different IPs (on Sunday 2005-10-30).


I read announce very regularly (checking it several times a day, most
days), but wouldn't show up in your announce stats.  Why?  Because I
subscribe to gmane.org's gmane.linux.gentoo.announce newsgroup.



Bottom line, then, announce has far more readers than the ones Gentoo
tracks thru its subscription list.  A wild guess, as it'd take some work
to make it anything more than that, would put it on par with the
gentoo.org front page.  It may actually get more circulation than the
front page.  (That said, as others have posted, if more news gets posted
to the front page, those unique IP counts will probably go up accordingly.
LWN and others could easily grab from there, as well.)


Of course there are more readers than subscribed ones.
Far more, I doubt it, how many would that be?
As many as our front page and news feed, definitely not.

FYI, 81,054 different IPs have hit our front page or the news feed in just 5 
days, and we're talking about a resource where hardly anything but the GWN and 
the occasional GDP status is ever posted.
Anyway, it's not like we had to choose between them, it's a trivial thing to 
post a news item to -announce.


--
/  Xavier Neys
\_ Gentoo Documentation Project
/  French & Internationalisation Lead
\  http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en
/\
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:06 +0100, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> I expect the average user to make a nice printout of the handbook. The 
> print version of the handbook was provided mainly on user request you 
> know. It also works a lot easier than either flipping screens to 
> links/lynx all the time or running up and down to another computer (if 
> available).

I think everyone has also missed that there *is* the ability to install
Gentoo completely offline.  I've done it before on a laptop without any
Internet access, besides doing it for QA during releases.

We do not expect the user to have a web browser, broadband, or Internet
access of any kind to perform an installation.  Using the installation
documents as an example of "requiring a web browser" is asinine.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:02 +0100, Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> No, gentoo expects people to have access to a webbrowser. But not all the 
> time. It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to make a nice printout 
> of the handbook at the office, and then take it at home to install a nice 
> new gentoo box.

We *do* provide the Handbook in PDF on our releases. ;]

> > The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides;
> > the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources).
> 
> The website should not as it a pull source of information. It requires 
> users to actively acquire the information. What is worse is that some 
> users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time 
> they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But they 
> will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews.

Right.  This is the entire point that Stuart was making from the
beginning.  The *only* thing that we can guarantee users will look at
when doing updates is portage itself.  Anything else is ancillary to the
tree.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Marius Mauch]

Thierry Carrez wrote:

Paul de Vrieze wrote:


Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a 
good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail 
format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it).


Also having double files containing the same information is broken by 
design.



OK so there is two options :

1- every "news" requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web
location
Pros:
- non-portage user can easily browse errata
- consistency in documentation
Cons:
- work overhead for errata-writing dev

2- every "news" requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional
Pros:
- flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc
- external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can
be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient
Cons:
- lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse


I don't understand the last point really ... You can always transform 
the plain text message into GuideXML (you just might not have all the 
fancy markup, but even that could be solved).
So all in all I really don't understand this whole subthread, I'll just 
post how I see it right now:
There will be one location (either in the tree or replicated to the 
tree) which contains summary style notices for important tree updates. 
The format of the notices should be as simple as possible (I've learned 
this the hard way with the GLSA system) while allowing at least basic 
filtering rules, I think the format described in the GLEP is good for 
that. It should also be possible to easily transform those notices into 
a website (be it errata.g.o or something else) that matches the general 
look and feel of the Gentoo websites, should be simple enough with the 
given format (but then I don't know much about XSLT).
If a notice needs a more detailed explanation that should be submitted 
in the docs section (maybe a special "Upgrade Guides" section?) and 
linked to from the notice.
Should also be simple enough to replicate notices to thw www.g.o 
frontpage/GWN/-announce/...


Just to make this crystal clear again: The main point of the notices is 
to get peoples attention so they become aware that some upgrade might 
not be as smooth as usual, not necessarily to provide them with all 
potential information, that's the job of the (external) upgrade guides.


One thing I'd be interested in before adding support for this: How many 
such notices do people here expect per year? Mainly trying to get an 
idea how this would affect the tree size  and if it needs some 
"housekeeping" (e.g. five files per month aren't an issue, 500 files per 
month might be).


Marius
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting Important Updates To Users

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 08:34:21AM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Almost all of them publish 'errata'. That is why I suggest a single
> place for all technical info such as the recent apache upgrade:
> 
> http://errata.gentoo.org/
> 
> i.e. Upgrade/migration stuff would go there as opposed to 'fresh
> install' stuff (which belongs in the normal docs area).

I disagree. Upgrading documentation can be part of the normal docs area as
well.

Wkr,
  Sven Vermeulen

-- 
  Gentoo Foundation Trustee  |  http://foundation.gentoo.org
  Gentoo Documentation Project Lead  |  http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp
  Gentoo Council Member  

  The Gentoo Project   <<< http://www.gentoo.org >>>


pgpcGuZmFRq3p.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:43 -0500, Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> How about getting some facts straight before running your mouth?  Gentoo 
> most certainly does not expect users to have a web browser to install. 
> The last time I actually installed on x86 (which was some time ago 
> admittedly), there was a .txt version of the install guide on the livecd.

Exactly.

> Even then, the web browser you are speaking of runs directly off the 
> livecd.  So, what happens when there is critical news to be read during 
> the install phase inside the chroot, but no web browser is yet 
> installed?  Are you suggesting we bloat stage1 and stage2 with some sort 
> of XML parser so that the user can read news without having to kill the 
> emerge and read the news outside the chroot?  I think you would have a 
> seriously hard time convincing the release folks this is a good idea.

We won't add more cruft to the stages.  We're already to the point of
trying to determine ways to reduce stage size, not increase it.

> Furthermore, it is not possible to include any sort of XML parser with 
> installers for certain arches which use very minimal netboots for the 
> default installation method.  So really, your complaints about the 
> "lightweight" requirement appears to just be a way of subverting 
> attention away from the real reasons it is a good idea, and towards 
> maintaining a flamewar with ciaran that you will surely lose.

What is it for SPARC again?  4MB for both kernel + initrd?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
> lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
> without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.

less /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/txt/install.txt

No web browser, so can you please quit beating this dead horse.  It
isn't even funny anymore.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 14:38, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> > What is worse is that some
> > users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time
> > they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But
> > they will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews.
>
> Why would a "SomeSQL 1.0 to 1.1" guide ever need to dissappear? Surely
> errata.g.o would have archiving/searching. But I do see your point
> about emerge filtering out the unwanted stuff.

It would be hidden in the forrest. Even if I did a search on SomeSQL, it 
might return a number of news items on SomeSQL. That is besides the fact 
that I have 737 packages installed. I'm not going to search news on all 
of them. Archiving would of course be provided, but searching is not 
usefull for updating.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgpgthztGskhf.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 19:33 -0600, Brian Harring wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 08:24:27PM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> > I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
> > reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
> > client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.
> > In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very
> > simple format."
> > 
> > *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
> > a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
> > get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
> > appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
> > standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> We actually have links in the base profile iirc, either way, the 
> example of where this breaks down is headless servers...

There are no web browsers in the base profile, the stages, nor in the
"system" target for any architecture or project.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:24 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
> a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
> get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
> appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
> standards (because of your XML hatred).

*sigh*

Then I guess we're wasting our time getting the Handbook converted to
plain text for *every* release.  It's on the CD itself, have a look.  No
need for a web browser of any kind.

You really need to check your facts before posting.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
x86 Architecture Team
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Paul de Vrieze wrote:
>
>>Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a 
>>good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail 
>>format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it).
>>
>>Also having double files containing the same information is broken by 
>>design.

By the way, we're talking about 1 source file being translated into
multiple formats (email for the mailing list, news blurb for GWN, etc),
and the idea is far from broken.

> 
> OK so there is two options :
> 
> 1- every "news" requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web
> location

[snip]

> 2- every "news" requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional
> Pros:

[snip]

> We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work
> overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we
> can't, I tend to favor the second solution...
> 

This is a wonderful comprimise. And one might even sucker me into
helping write the tool.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa2ZE2QTTR4CNEQARAvNVAJ4+q94QFV+fik4FRCywX1N1Yh1s9QCfab7m
trmF40e9e33usGS7EbpMjoQ=
=tPJE
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul de Vrieze wrote:
> What is worse is that some 
> users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time 
> they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But they 
> will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews.

Why would a "SomeSQL 1.0 to 1.1" guide ever need to dissappear? Surely
errata.g.o would have archiving/searching. But I do see your point about
emerge filtering out the unwanted stuff.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa2RQ2QTTR4CNEQARAv0fAKCFOH6RedaYBSG069nX+aAtmQ/YWgCgjVlE
RAF3N34PDvrtY88ks3QwRhc=
=b+7v
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dan Meltzer wrote:
> erm, and how exactly do you propose that the user who
> doesn't-read-the-site-because-it-has-no-useful-information-currently
> will learn about errata.g.o?

If all of the other replicated sources (forums, mailing lists, GWN, etc)
and 'emerge --news' link back to errata.g.o, they'll figure it out.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDa2N82QTTR4CNEQARAquRAJ9mKsu0QOubuK/IdSB1eyJakHgl+QCeJQqE
qhBjRtcR6zxebGOr1IjNAp4=
=LtIp
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Last rites for media-video/drip

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

Also if Luca already told of drip going away, I tried to safe it removing just 
the version hardly depending on divx4linux. Unfortunately drip has still 
problems, deps on avifile and GNOME 1.x, and it seems to be unmaintained.

It's masked now and pending removal for next week. If you want DVD ripper, 
consider acidrip that uses mplayer/mencoder instead.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE


pgphaVy4folhQ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Dan Meltzer]

erm, and how exactly do you propose that the user who
doesn't-read-the-site-because-it-has-no-useful-information-currently
will learn about errata.g.o?

On 11/3/05, Nathan L. Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Brian Harring wrote:
> > Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed
> > out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting
> > at).
>
> I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/ should
> be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not
> neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other
> places (although it certainly could be).
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFDarzS2QTTR4CNEQARAlB7AJsHfqCVL160KApWZU7iuqNtCb9SWwCcCtRR
> D2e1H1U208kQQNzLDo9CpGk=
> =kiyo
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Thierry Carrez]

Paul de Vrieze wrote:

> Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a 
> good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail 
> format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it).
> 
> Also having double files containing the same information is broken by 
> design.

OK so there is two options :

1- every "news" requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web
location
Pros:
- non-portage user can easily browse errata
- consistency in documentation
Cons:
- work overhead for errata-writing dev

2- every "news" requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional
Pros:
- flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc
- external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can
be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient
Cons:
- lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse

We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work
overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we
can't, I tend to favor the second solution...

-- 
Koon
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Tres Melton]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 19:29 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:

> 
> You're just missing the fact that a flat file (or whatever it is you're
> clinging to; for the purpose of this rant, I shall refer to your simple
> data format as "flat file") has trade-offs, just like XML's trade off is
> parsing overhead. XML was designed to solve certain problems;
> portability of data, separation and portability of presentation from the
> data, etc. Complexity in the parser is the trade-off.
> 
Perhaps I'm missing something here but I thought the concept of --news
is to get information in front of as many eyes as possible.  It seems
that information could just as easily be:


This upgrade is going to be a PITA and we highly recommend that you read
one (or more) of the following resources before proceeding:

http://www.gentoo.org/wherever/upgrade-instructions
http://forums.gentoo.org/thread=whatever
http://lists.gmane.org/link-to-mail-thread.

You have been warned.  Have a nice day. (tm)


This would have the simplicity of a flat file and all the functionality
of XML at once so we can eat our cake too.  Just a thought.

> 
> Nathan
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFDaqt52QTTR4CNEQARAoQ1AJ42ItHkJ37eFUY8rSoGpN/dVoKIFACeJi7b
> KW6/pzn8VEKi3hO0Gqomsms=
> =cSQh
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-

Best Regards,
-- 
Tres Melton
IRC & Gentoo: RiverRat

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 09:32, John Myers wrote:
> [[ACK! I sent this out from the wrong address before. Hope you don't
> get it twice!]]
>
> On Thursday 03 November 2005 21:44, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> > No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short
> > summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the "hey mr. end user,
> > the central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is
> > here: [insert url]" as well.
>
> [snip]
>
> > I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be
> > small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first
> > place then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of
> > console output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not
> > approach it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from
> > that?
>
> Here's an idea for a compromise solution. Sorry it's so messy:
>
> The errata entries would consist of two files per language:
> - An emerge news file, identical to the format ciaranm proposed.
> This file would give a very general notice of the issue, such as
> that given as an example in the GLEP, as well as containing the
> machine-readable commands for portage to control display.
>   This file's name would end in .news..txt
> - A GuideXML-formatted errata document.
> This would be the actual migration guide, such as the contents of
> the http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/yoursql-upgrading.xml
> referenced by the example.
>   This file's name would end in .guide..xml
> - The leading part of the filename would be as in ciaranm's GLEP

Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a 
good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail 
format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it).

Also having double files containing the same information is broken by 
design. This doesn't mean that all information should be in the news 
file. Let me give an example that would have been relevant some time ago.

Title: Incompatible subversion repository change
Author: Paul de Vrieze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2005-11-04
Version: 1
Display-If-Installed: =dev-util/subversion-0.34.0. After installation new 
repositories can be created and the dumps can be reloaded.

For more information on dumping and loading see the subversion migration 
guide:
http://subversion.tigris.org/subversion_migration.




If I have to write such a file in guidexml it would be a lot more 
complicated. Further this news item would only be relevant to people 
providing older subversion repositories wanting to update. As erata would 
contain all these files, it would be a swamp, hard to wade through.

I also fail to see where such a file as illustrated above is unclear to 
read. I prefer it over a bloated webpage with all kinds of slowness and 
eyecandy.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgpjcJU3Pv71j.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 02:52, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Let me say it one more time. I'm not saying you have to have a web
> browser installed on the system that you are updating or installing.
> I'm saying that the GuideXML docs are the standard, official source of
> documentation and the same should hold true for the migration guides.
> I'm also saying that feedback from users said they want ONE official
> place to find this stuff. Therefor any plan that doesn't take both of
> those things into account is silly. And having the GuideXML-ized guides
> on a central website marked as the 'official-one-stop-for-errata' does
> not in any way shape or form preclude anyone from mirroring that info
> in a text file, forum post, emerge --news, mailing list, etc. etc. ad
> nauseum.

GuideXML would not be an appropriate format in any case. GuideXML is too 
bloated with presentation items to be of use for such a purpose. While 
one could argue for an xml source version, it would certainly not be 
guidexml. This is also not necessary as it is possible to easilly apply 
double transformations by first transforming a file into guidexml and 
then into html. Look at the herds.xml file or projectxml for an example 
of this.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgpPVzeKlt0GC.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 02:43, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Brian Harring wrote:
> > Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed
> > out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting
> > at).
>
> I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/
> should be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not
> neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other
> places (although it certainly could be).

I'm saying that /usr/portage/news should be the *official* source where 
users should go to find the info. http://erata.g.o would be a secondary 
source, that while officially supported, is not the main source. 

The reason is that errata.g.o would not be able to offer the same user 
experience as emerge --news would. errata.g.o does NOT know about the 
local system (nor should it), and thus might be bloated with unneeded 
information. When I'm working at updating a system, I'm not interested in 
knowing that winex-cvs has been removed at transgaming's request (old 
news, as example). If however I was someone using winex-cvs, I'd be very 
interested. See the point.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgp8MtoD7JKcb.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 02:36, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >
> > I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you?
>
> So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
> lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
> without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.

I expect the average user to make a nice printout of the handbook. The 
print version of the handbook was provided mainly on user request you 
know. It also works a lot easier than either flipping screens to 
links/lynx all the time or running up and down to another computer (if 
available).

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgpGLH2Tizwau.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Paul de Vrieze]

On Friday 04 November 2005 02:24, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> I have read it, and I find it lacking; thus the comments. Or are you
> claiming that the idea of having a central website like errata.g.o with
> GuideXML-ized migrations guides is in your GLEP? Its not. I'm proposing
> adding that as the definative source of the errata, and feeding it to
> other places (emerge --news, mailing lists, forums, GWN) as desired.

I agree with Ciaran here. Emerge --news should be authoritive. I'm not 
opposed to erata.gentoo.org, but it is easy to generate from the tree. If 
there would be a master format to generate both from, that would also be 
OK, but news items in the tree is probably the best answer. And it is 
easy to display when pretending. One could even give a warning (in 
advance) when a user is trying to update an affected package (perhaps 
this should be an extra header item).

>
> I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
> reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
> client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.
> In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a
> very simple format."
>
> *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
> a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would
> never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight"
> requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current
> documentation standards (because of your XML hatred).

No, gentoo expects people to have access to a webbrowser. But not all the 
time. It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to make a nice printout 
of the handbook at the office, and then take it at home to install a nice 
new gentoo box.

> The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides;
> the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources).

The website should not as it a pull source of information. It requires 
users to actively acquire the information. What is worse is that some 
users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time 
they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But they 
will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net


pgp2kaCNoMG4z.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[John Myers]

[[ACK! I sent this out from the wrong address before. Hope you don't get it 
twice!]]
On Thursday 03 November 2005 21:44, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short
> summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the "hey mr. end user, the
> central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is here:
> [insert url]" as well.
[snip]
> I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be
> small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first place
> then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of console
> output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not approach
> it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from that?
Here's an idea for a compromise solution. Sorry it's so messy:

The errata entries would consist of two files per language:
- An emerge news file, identical to the format ciaranm proposed.
This file would give a very general notice of the issue, such as that 
given as an example in the GLEP, as well as containing the 
machine-readable commands for portage to control display.
  This file's name would end in .news..txt
- A GuideXML-formatted errata document.
This would be the actual migration guide, such as the contents of the
 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/yoursql-upgrading.xml
referenced by the example.
  This file's name would end in .guide..xml
- The leading part of the filename would be as in ciaranm's GLEP

Once it is time for the errata item to be published (after review, etc.), the 
files would be placed in a standard location, where an automated process 
would pick them up. The news files would be transferred to the Portage tree 
for emerge to pick up, and simultaneously published to a central errata 
website, e.g. http://errata.gentoo.org/. On the errata website, *all* errata 
notices would be published to its front page, unless specified differently by 
each individual user (perhaps a feature storing filters in a cookie). Each 
entry in the list would contain at least the publication date, the title of 
the news item as a link to a news item page, and the title of the guideXML 
document as a link to the document. 

Errata items would be accessible in a uniform namespace with names derived 
from their source filenames. For example:
2005-11/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade.news.en.txt
2005-11/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade.guide.en.xml
might become:
http://errata.gentoo.org/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade/en/
http://errata.gentoo.org/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade/en/guide.xml

For user convenience, URLs with language codes the text is not yet translated 
to, as well as URLs without a language code, should be redirected to the 
English version.

Errata items may be published in other areas for wider exposure, but should 
always contain a link back to the main source.

The news item page would contain a copy of the news text typeset in a 
fixed-width font, and with links made clickable, as well as a prominent link 
to the GuideXML document. The title of the page should be the title of the 
news item, and the title of the link to the GuideXML page should be the title 
of the GuideXML document.

Questions? Comments? 


pgpHAcs3R8c1G.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Sami Näätänen]

On Friday 04 November 2005 03:10, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> Stuart Herbert wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:51 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> >>Did you specifically ask them if it is because we have different
> >> news in different locations?  Somehow I think you're obscuring
> >> some facts to make your own argument.
> >
> > That seems an unpleasant accusation to make :(
> >
> > The answer is that I didn't ask them if it was because we have
> > different news in different locations.  The question didn't occur
> > to me.
> >
> >>The only problem that we have now with our multiple mediums is that
> >> not all news is on all mediums.  We should have the same
> >> information going to all of these and let the user choose which
> >> method they like for getting news.
> >
> > The critical difference between improving our existing mediums, and
> > the emerge --news approach that I've proposed, is that emerge
> > --news is the only approach that actively pushes news out to *all*
> > users, and puts it in a place that is as guaranteed as anything
> > else available to catch their attention.
> >
> > All the other approaches rely on the user going somewhere to get
> > news, whether it's signing up to a mailing list, reading www.g.o,
> > reading the forums, or whatever.  Inevitably, this is only going to
> > reach a smaller subsection of our user community.
> >
> > What I care about is that we've taken the right steps to put
> > important information in front of *all* of our users (and our
> > devs!).  Even (especially?) the ones who are unable to keep up with
> > the news as it is currently delivered.
> >
> > Making sure our users are well-informed improves the level and
> > quality of service that we provide; it can only enhance our
> > reputation; and it should also cut down on the amount of developer
> > time that goes into post-upgrade support (leaving more time for
> > package maintenance).
>
> One source: http://errata.gentoo.org/
>
> Push that out to as many alternate sources as you like (RSS feeds,
> summaries in emerge --news, forums post, etc.), but make it known
> that the website is *the* source (your alternate sources should point
> back to it).

Well I don't like web so much for this kind of things, so fails me.
I want the info where I need it. I don't have network access from all 
the machines I admin. So the best possible repository for the news is 
with the tree, because that is allways required.
And because Gentoo has the control over the tree it is very trivial and 
secure way to spread the news.
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Wernfried Haas]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 12:42:47AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution
> meets all of them. XML fails on several.
>
> And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before*
> dismissing XML.

Sorry, but this is too funny. 
You don't like XML.
You wrote the requirements.
You decided XML doesn't meet those requirements.
So even if you come up with the requirements *before* chances are
approximately 97% XML will fail.

I don't know if XML _is_ the right thing for this job, but i think you
are definitely biased towards it.

cheers,
Wernfried

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org
Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org
IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org
-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] New Dev: markusle

[Lisa Seelye]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 16:49 -0600, Brian Harring wrote:
> Hola all-
> 
> Got us a new dev to harass, mentored by ribosome, and helping out in 
> the scientific herd- quantum chemistry, and molecular dynamics 
> packages, subjects that have have the potential to cause 
> cereberal hemorrhaging :)

We have quantum chemistry and molecular dynamics packages?

*brain explodes*

Welcome to the club.

-- 
Regards,
Lisa Seelye
GPG: 09CF5 2D6B8 2B72B 997A7 601BC B46B5 561E4 96FC5
http://www.thedoh.com/~lisa/site


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part