Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 01:23:33 Chris Gianelloni wrote:

Considering that the most recent official release is 2008.0_beta2, I
don't see where you have a point, at all.


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5

The latest release of Gentoo Linux is:

Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, SH, SPARC, 
and x86 architectures. 


2007.0 is also the first version listed at 
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml




Good point, doc team please update those places.

The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might reasonably be 
using, even if only briefly.  Do you really expect /all/ users doing a new 
installation to choose the scary beta instead of the nice safe release?  


What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the 
havoc?


Well I do have my opinion about this:

http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero/glep/migrationpath.rst

IFF we would like to be _that_ helpful for such minority of users. 
Otherwise isn't that hard update portage in safe mode anyway.


Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport 
of Ciaranm and crew, be it a beta tag, an obscure feature some 
developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not 
use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.


lu - putting in perspective

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:

David Leverton wrote:

On Friday 13 June 2008 11:10:46 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:

Interesting to note, however, that Paludis doesn't accept inline
comments, and this behaviour predates PMS.
There's a reason for Paludis not accepting them, and the same reason applies 
to the question of allowing them in PMS or not, therefore PMS doesn't allow 
them.  There's no evil conspiracy here, just pure logic.

Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?


[ ${IDEA_ORIGIN} != Ciaran ]  die


I tend to agree.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote:

In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda


Lies and FUD.


No


maybe it would be best for all if paludis and it's developers were to
concentrate on making paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a
good place to start... 


Oh look, speaking of agendas


...are you issuing a press release for exherbo?

lu

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[gentoo-dev] -bash: no job control in this shell

2008-06-19 Thread vinod kumar
Hi,

I am geting this error when I login to my gentoo uml  it becomes very 
difficult to stop any service. I am able to ssh into this uml from the host 
without any errors.

Any idea how to turn the job control back on...? I have googled for couple of 
days in vain. please help me ..


Vinod


  
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

Alexis Ballier wrote:

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:18:19 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) wrote:


libogg and popt are now masked, and they'll wait a bit before return
to ~arch that way.


2 months later, any news on this ? I've been using the unmasked
versions so long; are we going to wait forever ? It's probably better
to unmask it or revert the change at this point.


We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la 
files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild.


lu

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:39 AM, George Prowse  wrote:
 ++

 It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of
 developers will be thinking the same.

++

I'm not a developer, but I'm a Gentoo Summer of Code student[0] so
maybe my experience counts for something:

I approached this package manager mess with a completely open mind. I
did not see any reason why someone would behave the way people were
saying the Paludis folk did. I used to idle on both #pkgcore and
#paludis, and occasionally contributed in both channels[1][2]. The
result however, was a personal verification[3] of what people had been
telling me all along.

Ciaran deliberately steers threads in a completely non-productive
direction[4] for reasons completely beyond me[5]. If I didn't know better
I'd think he had been hired by someone to constantly plant seeds of
disharmony and chaos within Gentoo.

However, one thing is for certain. There is no doubt that his tactics
waste everyone's time and energy.

~Nirbheek Chauhan who is quite depressed to see all this.

0. http://tinyurl.com/4plr7c
1. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8455
2. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/8456
3. http://pastebin.osuosl.org/7939
4. Ciaran's reply (http://tinyurl.com/5sldtc) to Brian's mail
(http://tinyurl.com/5zuf7y) and my reply to it
(http://tinyurl.com/5l4ddk)
5. http://tinyurl.com/6b5sfb

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Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

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XzEAoKdhmPCeixSoDOoK/8fJ+aWm4apc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:41:34 Luca Barbato wrote:
  The point is to avoid breaking Portage versions that users might
  reasonably be using, even if only briefly.  Do you really expect /all/
  users doing a new installation to choose the scary beta instead of the
  nice safe release?

 What about those who do not update since 1.0? how could they survive the
 havoc?

Is avoiding a beta version of something moderately important (like, say, 
installation media) really equivalent to not updating for over five years?

 Trying to make HUGE MONSTERS of little corner case is the favorite sport
 of Ciaranm and crew, be it a beta tag, an obscure feature some
 developers may like for tracking live sources (and the user should not
 use), possible fut{ure,ile} changes in the ebuild format.

Please take the ad hominems elsewhere. 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:44:41 Luca Barbato wrote:
 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
  On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 12:22 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote:
  Care to share the logic and wise reasoning ?
 
  [ ${IDEA_ORIGIN} != Ciaran ]  die

 I tend to agree.

The reason has already been explained multiple times, kindly stop with the 
personal attacks and silly conspiracy theories.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:46:02 Luca Barbato wrote:
 David Leverton wrote:
  On Thursday 19 June 2008 04:09:26 George Prowse wrote:
  In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda
 
  Lies and FUD.

 No

Yes.

 ...are you issuing a press release for exherbo?

What the hell does Exherbo have to do with anything?
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Duncan
Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted
[EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on  Wed, 18
Jun 2008 18:43:12 -0700:

 Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo
 take control over the specification that defines the most important
 single feature of Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its
 development.

Leaving the history aside (I posted my personal feelings a week or so 
ago, no need to rehash), we have a serious practical problem with any 
proposal to take direct control of PMS and boot the main current 
contributors.

The problem is -- like him or not, and like the problem or not, Ciaran is 
the ONE person who pushed and pushed on PMS, ultimately got the thing 
going, and continues to be the prime mover behind it.

Now, part of that may be the result of the caustic style, no argument 
there.  However, the fact is, he's and the other paludis folks are 
putting in the hard time that has to be put in to get the thing done.  
Nobody else is, either on their repository or on the Gentoo controlled 
one.  In fact, last I knew, the Gentoo one tended not to be up to date 
and was often going weeks between any action at all (tho talk was of 
moving the active one to Gentoo hosting, don't know if it ever happened 
or not).

Whatever our disagreements or dislikes for each other, the practical 
situation is that Ciaran and friends are doing what no one else took time 
to do, and, were we to forcibly remove them from their current activity 
on it, I'd put the chances at over 70% it'd end up stagnating pretty 
fast.  That's the problem with scrapping and starting over, too, except 
even more so.  I'd put the chances of a redo project ever reaching even 
/this/ far at less than 20%.  

So, while we might not particularly like the persons doing it, if we 
consider it worthwhile and useful to have done, we pretty much gotta work 
with them, because they /are/ doing it -- no one else was or is, nor, 
practically speaking, do I see anybody else having the discipline, time 
and talent to stick to it and get it done, right, regardless of likes or 
dislikes.

Now, it may indeed be that having a working and adopted PMS or alike 
document isn't worth the trouble.  It's the council, backed by individual 
devs, that ultimately decides such things.  However, I believe it's 
worthwhile to face the facts, and know that if we /do/ nix this, we're 
probably nixing the entire idea for some years at least.  Whether it's 
worth it or not I can't say, but that's what we're talking, in terms of 
cost, one way or the other.  We either take this, like or not who doing 
it, or we don't, and we lose all the benefits, for now and perhaps 
forever, but also lose the poison.  Honestly, I'm glad I'm not one of 
those having to make that decision.

-- 
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Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:51:15 Luca Barbato wrote:
 We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la
 files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild.

How do you decide when they're unnecessary?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 08:51:15 Luca Barbato wrote:

We could either pick a week and do a major ebuild update to remove .la
files when unnecessary or just append a notice about revdep rebuild.


How do you decide when they're unnecessary?


.la are used for :

1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use)
2 load plugins using libtool support

if you have a pkg-config and you aren't building plugins you can do 
w/out them.


lu

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 10:36:12 Luca Barbato wrote:
 1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use)

Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig.

 2 load plugins using libtool support

Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a normal 
library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if 
the library is missing, for example)?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

David Leverton wrote:

On Thursday 19 June 2008 10:36:12 Luca Barbato wrote:

1 getting static libraries (pkg-config replaces this use)


Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig.


2 load plugins using libtool support


Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a normal 
library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if 
the library is missing, for example)?


Corner cases as usual...

lu

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 11:39:44 Luca Barbato wrote:
 Corner cases as usual...

What's that supposed to mean?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Roy Marples
On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
 Nope.   What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current
 de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly
 removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written
 for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's
 development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks.  Quite
 frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that
 defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the
 non-Gentoo developers from its development.  No offense, but you're not
 a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we*
 manage ourselves.  You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or
 whatever the hell you want.  This is open source, after all, but that
 doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over
 Gentoo that you've been granted.

I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people from -dev 
and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean for life.

Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage 
participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time and time 
again over quite a number of years that they wont change no matter what. 
These people are posionous [1].

Whilst growing this set of balls, consider scrapping PMS I've yet to see any 
tangiable gain (from a user perspective) but plently of loss (developers, 
hair, temper).

I'm leaving this list as I want no part in this any longer, so I won't read 
any replies.

Thanks

Roy

[1] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Rémi Cardona

David Leverton a écrit :


Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig.


I'd be in favor of having a _default_ configuration for Gentoo where 
static binaries are never built except for some key packages (mainly for 
rescue situations).


That way, in a dynamic-lib only system, libtool will expand -lname to 
name.so. Simple and easy.


As Diego and others have been on a crusade to make sure that system libs 
are used instead of bundled libs, static libs should also be outcast.


Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a normal 
library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if 
the library is missing, for example)?


Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ 
or libpng.


*None* of the binary distros out there ship .la files by default. Those 
come with -devel packages. Proof that they are (almost) never needed.


And if an application chooses to dlopen() gtk+ or libpng, the ELF 
headers contain all the dependencies, so the actual content of the .la 
file is also useless in that case.


Cheers :)

Rémi
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 13:08:09 Rémi Cardona wrote:
 David Leverton a écrit :
  Not for library consumers that use libtool but not pkgconfig.

 I'd be in favor of having a _default_ configuration for Gentoo where
 static binaries are never built except for some key packages (mainly for
 rescue situations).

 That way, in a dynamic-lib only system, libtool will expand -lname to
 name.so. Simple and easy.

 As Diego and others have been on a crusade to make sure that system libs
 are used instead of bundled libs, static libs should also be outcast.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, as long as there's a way to override it for 
people who need to.

  Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a normal
  library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully
  if the library is missing, for example)?

 Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+
 or libpng.

 *None* of the binary distros out there ship .la files by default. Those
 come with -devel packages. Proof that they are (almost) never needed.

Well... the point is that removing them is a (potential) incompatibility with 
the package as shipped by upstream.  As with the previous point, I suppose I 
could tolerate doing it by default, as long as users can choose to install 
them if they need.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Börjesson
On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts:
 In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force 
 it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all 
 if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a 
 different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...

I'm pretty sure they have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo
community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations. If you're
not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source.
That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with
something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining). 

I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking
irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some
people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just
think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of
just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you
mess up. 

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/\  and proprietary formats.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Patrick Börjesson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts:
 In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force
 it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all
 if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a
 different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...

 I'm pretty sure they have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo
 community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations.

The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Even if half
the community decides (out of the half that hasn't unsubscribed or
left because of them) not to reply to them, someone from the other
half will reply, and the thread will again spiral downwards.

I recommend seeing (at least) the first 5-10 mins of
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 (posted
by Roy Maples in this same thread)

 If you're
 not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source.
 That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with
 something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining).

I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces.
We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's
ready, council will approve it.


 I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking
 irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some
 people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just
 think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of
 just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you
 mess up.

The problem, of course, comes up when one side likes to mix technical
replies with personal attacks[1][2][3][4][...].


1. 
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_23e836c773616f0e816f3c421900e1f1.xml
2. 
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3bb49516dc83b9f4d8f80a4e67fa7a84.xml
3,4,... Many many more. I don't intend to waste time searching for them.

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan
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Re: [gentoo-dev] -bash: no job control in this shell

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Börjesson
On 2008-06-19 00:46, vinod kumar uttered these thoughts:
 I am geting this error when I login to my gentoo uml  it becomes very 
 difficult to stop any service. I am able to ssh into this uml from the host 
 without any errors.
 
 Any idea how to turn the job control back on...? I have googled for couple of 
 days in vain. please help me ..

Sorry, but this list is not the right place for support. The gentoo-user
mailing list is what you want. 

Patrick B

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
 time and energy since people will *always* reply to them.

Replies?  On a mailing list?  Whatever is the world coming to?

 I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces.
 We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's
 ready, council will approve it.

Who's pushing it in everyone's faces?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] extending existing EAPI semantics

2008-06-19 Thread Peter Volkov
В Втр, 10/06/2008 в 21:10 -0700, Brian Harring пишет:
 So... someone other then ciaran have a comment?

From ebuild developer point of view there is no difference if eapi is a
variable of a function call. If changing eapi to a function call makes
sourcing of ebuilds more sane, then it's good to have such change.

-- 
Peter.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
 time and energy since people will *always* reply to them.

 Replies?  On a mailing list?  Whatever is the world coming to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy


 I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces.
 We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's
 ready, council will approve it.

 Who's pushing it in everyone's faces?

Oh great, then I don't expect any more threads about PMS from the authors :)

/me marks this reply for further reference

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Richard Brown
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 14:19, Nirbheek Chauhan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
 time and energy since people will *always* reply to them.

 Replies?  On a mailing list?  Whatever is the world coming to?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot
-- 
Richard Brown
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:19:32 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
  The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
  time and energy since people will *always* reply to them.
 
  Replies?  On a mailing list?  Whatever is the world coming to?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy

I really don't see what context in your original post could change the meaning 
from oh noes, too many posts, it must be a flamewar11!  If you'd like 
to clarify, I'd appreciate that very much.

  Who's pushing it in everyone's faces?

 Oh great, then I don't expect any more threads about PMS from the authors
 :)

Posting threads about PMS is not the same as pushing it in everyone's faces.  
This is the appropriate list to discuss PMS issues, as far as I'm aware.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:56 PM, David Leverton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:19:32 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, David Leverton
  On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:02:13 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
  The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
  time and energy since people will *always* reply to them.
 
  Replies?  On a mailing list?  Whatever is the world coming to?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contextomy

 I really don't see what context in your original post could change the meaning
 from oh noes, too many posts, it must be a flamewar11!  If you'd like
 to clarify, I'd appreciate that very much.

I meant

oh noes, too many posts with the same 3 people replying everywhere
and spreading their minority irrelevant opinion as though it really
mattered! What a gargantuan waste of time and energy11!~

I mean, you guys don't have *any* control over how Gentoo works
anymore. No one wants you all around. More than enough people have
wasted their time and energy on you. Far more people have stopped
coming onto #gentoo-dev. People who contribute far more than you guys
have unsubscribed from the gentoo-dev ML. You guys have made even more
people *leave the project*.

Stop.

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [GLEP] GLEP Purpose and Guidelines

2008-06-19 Thread Peter Volkov
В Втр, 17/06/2008 в 09:48 +0200, Tiziano Müller пишет:
 http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/glep/glep-glep.txt

Your GLEP describes only two possible types: Technical and
Organizational. At the same time type of your GLEP is informational. How
this could be? What happens with informational GLEPs?

Why did you dropped motivation from the body while mentioning it in
workflow? What about previous copyright claim?

Actually this is just a beginning of questions and generally it feels
this glep is not finished and should borrow more ideas from the current
GLEP 1. It's even better to update GLEP 1 instead for writing new one...

-- 
Peter.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Arun Raghavan
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Richard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot

This is the second time in 8 days that you are doing this. Please stop
filling our inboxes with this puerile trolling.

Devrel team: I do appreciate that the Gentoo Way has been to keep the
communication channels as open as possible, but a line must be drawn
*somewhere*.
-- 
Arun Raghavan
(http://nemesis.accosted.net)
v2sw5Chw4+5ln4pr6$OFck2ma4+9u8w3+1!m?l7+9GSCKi056
e6+9i4b8/9HTAen4+5g4/8APa2Xs8r1/2p5-8 hackerkey.com
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 14:52:01 Nirbheek Chauhan wrote:
 oh noes, too many posts with the same 3 people replying everywhere
 and spreading their minority irrelevant opinion as though it really
 mattered! What a gargantuan waste of time and energy11!~

If you disagree with people's opinions, then you should try to convince them 
otherwise, not say minority, STFU.

 I mean, you guys don't have *any* control over how Gentoo works
 anymore. No one wants you all around. More than enough people have
 wasted their time and energy on you. Far more people have stopped
 coming onto #gentoo-dev. People who contribute far more than you guys
 have unsubscribed from the gentoo-dev ML. You guys have made even more
 people *leave the project*.

If people can't tell the difference between flaming and disagreeing, that's 
their problem.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Olivier Crête

On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 14:08 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote:
  Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a normal 
  library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully 
  if 
  the library is missing, for example)?
 
 Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+ 
 or libpng.

FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff


-- 
Olivier Crête
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [GLEP] GLEP Purpose and Guidelines

2008-06-19 Thread Tiziano Müller
Peter Volkov wrote:

 ? ???, 17/06/2008 ? 09:48 +0200, Tiziano Müller ?:
 http://dev.gentoo.org/~dev-zero/glep/glep-glep.txt
 
 ?Your GLEP describes only two possible types: Technical and
 Organizational.
Yes.

 At the same time type of your GLEP is informational.
I can't use the new types since I have to write the GLEP in terms of the
current GLEP system/types.

 How  
 this could be? What happens with informational GLEPs?
The current ones remain as they are. New ones should be one of the mentioned
types.

 
 Why did you dropped motivation from the body while mentioning it in
 workflow?
There must be a motivation. But the motivation could also be made clear in
the abstract. In other words: There must not be a separate
section motivation to make the motivation clear.

 ?What about previous copyright claim? 
What do you mean? (yes, in my proposal a Credits section is needed)

 
 Actually this is just a beginning of questions and generally it feels
 this glep is not finished
true, by intention. Just keep them coming.

 and should borrow more ideas from the current 
 GLEP 1. It's even better to update GLEP 1 instead for writing new one...
No. A GLEP should not be updated (besides trivial updates). That's one of
the things I'm trying to make clear here. It's not good at all to have the
GLEPs describing policies, they should only be used to propose/describe
changes to our policies (example: even if some country's law system is
based on the roman right you also don't get a copy of the roman right and a
book with changes made to it if you want to look at the current right).
In other words: GLEPs should only be patches or changesets.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Mario Fetka
Am Donnerstag, 19. Juni 2008 16:22:19 schrieb Olivier Crête:
 On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 14:08 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote:
   Why only plugins?  What's to stop an application from loading a
   normal library using libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail
   gracefully if the library is missing, for example)?
 
  Nothing per se, but I have yet to see any FOSS application dlopen() gtk+
  or libpng.

 FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff

also kde-3.5 is using libtools dlopen for plugins


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Patrick Börjesson
On 2008-06-19 18:32, Nirbheek Chauhan uttered these thoughts:
 On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Patrick Börjesson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts:
  In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force
  it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all
  if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a
  different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...
 
  I'm pretty sure they have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo
  community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations.
 
 The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
 time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Even if half
 the community decides (out of the half that hasn't unsubscribed or
 left because of them) not to reply to them, someone from the other
 half will reply, and the thread will again spiral downwards.

So how is that the Paludis guys fault? If you don't even expect your
guys (ie. official Gentoo Developers) to handle a conversation over a
mailinglist in a decent manner, how can you expect that from anyone
else?

 I recommend seeing (at least) the first 5-10 mins of
 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 (posted
 by Roy Maples in this same thread)

Oh, I watched the entire thing, thank you. And from it i came to the
conclusion that the Paludis folk aren't the ones being more poisonous.
Sure, Ciaran can be an asshat at times, but he also brings up valid
points most of the time (and by most i mean extremely close to always). 

The closest point of the Identification part of that presentation that
I could find applying to Ciaran would be Attempts to deliberately rile
people, which doesn't even apply since he's personally insulting
single individuals when he does it, and not the entire community.

  If you're
  not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source.
  That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with
  something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining).
 
 I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces.
 We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's
 ready, council will approve it.

How exactly are they pushing it in everyone's faces? Actually, there's
not much mension of PMS at all from the people actually working on PMS,
but rather mension of EAPI. And that's when it's actually relevant. 
And EAPI _was_ deemed relevant quite a while back if i remember right
(can't link to a specific discussion). 

And how exactly is the developer community going get to the point when
they think it's ready without any discussion about it?

  I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking
  irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some
  people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just
  think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of
  just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you
  mess up.
 
 The problem, of course, comes up when one side likes to mix technical
 replies with personal attacks[1][2][3][4][...].
 
 
 1. 
 http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_23e836c773616f0e816f3c421900e1f1.xml
 2. 
 http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3bb49516dc83b9f4d8f80a4e67fa7a84.xml
 3,4,... Many many more. I don't intend to waste time searching for them.

So you expect one side of the interraction (Ciaran in this case) to just
sit silently and accept the insults, while he on the other hand can't
say shit? Double standards anyone?

-- 
()  The ASCII Ribbon Campaign - against HTML Email
/\  and proprietary formats.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Rémi Cardona

Olivier Crête a écrit :

FOSS is the keyword here... the flash plugin dlopens a bunch of stuff


While I haven't checked, I doubt that it uses libltdl to do so :)


also kde-3.5 is using libtools dlopen for plugins


Yep, but then again, it's for plugins. The real problem is with static 
linking : do we want to support it or not. That's the only question.


I for one don't want to support it, none of the higher gnome packages 
properly work with it (even though we install both .so and .a libraries).


Rémi
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Jeroen Roovers
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:20:10 +0100
David Leverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What's to stop an application from loading a normal library using
 libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the
 library is missing, for example)?

That's a pretty basic definition of a plugin. :)


 JeR
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Removing .la files...

2008-06-19 Thread Matthias Schwarzott
On Donnerstag, 19. Juni 2008, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
 On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:20:10 +0100

 David Leverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  What's to stop an application from loading a normal library using
  libtool's dlopen wrapper (perhaps so it can fail gracefully if the
  library is missing, for example)?

 That's a pretty basic definition of a plugin. :)


  JeR

As example loading libm.so via dlopen. So I still would not name libm a 
plugin.

Regards
Matthias

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Jeroen Roovers
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:06:21 +0100
David Leverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The reason has already been explained multiple times, kindly stop
 with the personal attacks and silly conspiracy theories.

In this case the attacks seem to be targeting a person who has been
attacking an entire ~300 person project for a few years now. I honestly
don't see how you are contributing to this project in general, or in
particular how you intend to contribute to this project by protecting
ciaranm against this project.


 JeR


PS: I wanted to respond to many more of your comments, but then I
always thought: who is this man anyway and does he perhaps contribute
to Gentoo in some obscure way? Now I tend to think you don't.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Robert Bridge
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:11:11 +0100
Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
  Nope.   What I see as a problem is that the primary author and
  current de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was
  forcibly removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to
  be written for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package
  manager's development team with his constant not-so-subtle
  attacks.  Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over
  the specification that defines the most important single feature of
  Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its development.
  No offense, but you're not a Gentoo developer any longer and you
  shouldn't have a say in how *we* manage ourselves.  You're more
  than welcome to contribute code, fork, or whatever the hell you
  want.  This is open source, after all, but that doesn't mean you
  should be allowed to hold the position of power over Gentoo that
  you've been granted.
 
 I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people
 from -dev and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean
 for life.
 
 Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage 
 participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time
 and time again over quite a number of years that they wont change no
 matter what. These people are posionous [1].

Slightly ironic for me to suggest this, but...

It is the gentoo-dev mailing list, restrict posting to gentoo devs
(i.e. only people with a @gentoo.org email address) would make a lot of
sense.

Rob.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Ferris McCormick

On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 18:28 +0100, Robert Bridge wrote:
 On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:11:11 +0100
 Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Thursday 19 June 2008 02:43:12 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
   Nope.   What I see as a problem is that the primary author and
   current de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was
   forcibly removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to
   be written for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package
   manager's development team with his constant not-so-subtle
   attacks.  Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over
   the specification that defines the most important single feature of
   Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its development.
   No offense, but you're not a Gentoo developer any longer and you
   shouldn't have a say in how *we* manage ourselves.  You're more
   than welcome to contribute code, fork, or whatever the hell you
   want.  This is open source, after all, but that doesn't mean you
   should be allowed to hold the position of power over Gentoo that
   you've been granted.
  
  I would like to see Gentoo grow some balls and start banning people
  from -dev and other media used. I don't mean temporary bans, I mean
  for life.
  
  Yes, it's not nice. Yes, Gentoo should be open for all and encourage 
  participation from all. However, some people have demonstrated time
  and time again over quite a number of years that they wont change no
  matter what. These people are posionous [1].
 
 Slightly ironic for me to suggest this, but...
 
 It is the gentoo-dev mailing list, restrict posting to gentoo devs
 (i.e. only people with a @gentoo.org email address) would make a lot of
 sense.
 

Not really.  It's there for general discussion of development matters,
not developer matters.  Some of the most interesting posts are from
non-developers.   gentoo-core is restricted.

 Rob.

Regards,
Ferris
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc, Userrel, Trustees)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread David Leverton
On Thursday 19 June 2008 18:06:17 Jeroen Roovers wrote:
 In this case the attacks seem to be targeting a person who has been
 attacking an entire ~300 person project for a few years now.

Is it considered acceptable to attack someone as long as the attacker thinks 
they deserve it?

 I honestly don't see how you are contributing to this project in general,

Well, I'm no vapier, but I have filed the occasional bug, submitted the 
occasional patch, that sort of thing.

 or in particular how you intend to contribute to this project by protecting
 ciaranm against this project.

21:28  dberkholz@ jmbsvicetto: bheekling did an outstanding job of stepping 
in on that thread and one or two others. he's setting a great role model for 
what the rest of us should do
21:30 jmbsvicett  let me read the mails again.
21:30 Ford_Prefe  I guess peer-directed intolerance for bad behaviour is 
really the ideal solution for this
21:30 jmbsvicett  skim*
21:33 jmbsvicett  dberkholz: hmm, I can't find any mesage from bheekling on 
the -dev ml. Different name on the from address?
21:33 Ford_Prefe  
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_4211dc4054de30f2ff52f6f8a2e2466e.xml 
might be it
21:33   rane  Nirbheek
21:34  dberkholz@ yeah, that's him.
21:34 Ford_Prefe  (name is right, this might be the thread dberkholz is 
referring to)
21:34   rane  or sth like that
21:34   rane  no idea if it's his real name
21:34 jmbsvicett  thanks
21:34  dberkholz@ the specific post i had in mind was a wikipedia reference 
to flames and personal attacks
21:35   rane  yeah, this new idea of people telling others they are 
behaving like jerks
21:35   rane  it looks like it worked
21:35 Ford_Prefe  Indeed
21:40   rane  silent majority stepping in and kicking ass
21:40   rane  a great idea indeed
21:47 Ford_Prefe  Maybe we can have a won't-tolerate-bad-behaviour 
pledge. :P

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[gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Ivan Chernyavsky
Dear Gentoo developers,

I am a grateful Gentoo user, I'm pretty happy with Gentoo and already have five
installations of it, including one running a pilot project at my work.
I started working with Linux 6 years ago and came through RH-SuSE-Ubuntu.
None of them (except maybe SuSE 9.0 for some time) was perfect for me,
until I tried Gentoo. So firstly, *thank a lot* guys.

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way
to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical
discussions are of most importance here.

But what do I see? For more than a week, I need to came through dozens of
pure-fanatical e-mails having nothing except personal insults, FUD, idiotic
wikipedia links etc. etc. I can't believe it was always like this. I really hope
this is a temporary burst, caused by proposed EAPI change or something else,
because it makes my plans of carefully introducing
Gentoo as business-critical-ready-os to my employer much more complicated.

Maybe it is time to create a list gentoo-flame or gentoo-fud and post everything
there? I'm subscribed to several development and user mailing lists and I
nowhere I saw anything like this, for so long period of time.

Sorry if I don't understand something --- I'm really a new gentoo-dev reader,
but I feel sorry for this brilliant distribution sinking in the darkness
of FUD. Please please *do* stop it.

Many thanks in advance,

-- 
   Ivan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Arun Raghavan wrote:
| On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Richard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot
|
| This is the second time in 8 days that you are doing this. Please stop
| filling our inboxes with this puerile trolling.
|
| Devrel team: I do appreciate that the Gentoo Way has been to keep the
| communication channels as open as possible, but a line must be drawn
| *somewhere*.

Hello.

The userrel team has decided to request a 5 day ban to the -dev ml for
rbrown for his repeated misbehaviour, as noticed above, and that' now in
place.

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:45:45 +
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The userrel team has decided to request a 5 day ban to the -dev ml for
 rbrown for his repeated misbehaviour, as noticed above, and that' now
 in place.

It's good to see the userrel team is active. Will you be looking at bug
228321 sometime soon please?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Andreas Aronsson

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Ivan Chernyavsky wrote:


Dear Gentoo developers,

I am a grateful Gentoo user, I'm pretty happy with Gentoo and already have five
installations of it, including one running a pilot project at my work.
I started working with Linux 6 years ago and came through RH-SuSE-Ubuntu.
None of them (except maybe SuSE 9.0 for some time) was perfect for me,
until I tried Gentoo. So firstly, *thank a lot* guys.

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way
to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical
discussions are of most importance here.

But what do I see? For more than a week, I need to came through dozens of
pure-fanatical e-mails having nothing except personal insults, FUD, idiotic
wikipedia links etc. etc. I can't believe it was always like this. I really hope
this is a temporary burst, caused by proposed EAPI change or something else,
because it makes my plans of carefully introducing
Gentoo as business-critical-ready-os to my employer much more complicated.

Maybe it is time to create a list gentoo-flame or gentoo-fud and post everything
there? I'm subscribed to several development and user mailing lists and I
nowhere I saw anything like this, for so long period of time.

Sorry if I don't understand something --- I'm really a new gentoo-dev reader,
but I feel sorry for this brilliant distribution sinking in the darkness
of FUD. Please please *do* stop it.

Many thanks in advance,




++
Pretty much in the same situation and reading these emails for exactly
the same reasons for a month or so. 
I am not impressed and a bit sad.


--
Andreas Aronsson
Mobil: +46 704 566 595
www.aron.nu

I'd rather have friends who care than friends who agree with me.
- Arlo Guthrie
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Benedikt Morbach
++

I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this
list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of
FUD, insults and other crap.
I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore
all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly
retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.)
I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people.

What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here
feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back)

---
Benedikt
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Bernd Steinhauser

Benedikt Morbach schrieb:

++

I'm a user too and I really find it annoying that one can't read this
list to keep up with recent development, without digging to tons of
FUD, insults and other crap.
I personally came to the conclusion that it is best to simply ignore
all mails from certain people (hint: Most of them were forcibly
retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.)
I found out, that you loose nearly nothing by completely ignoring these people.

What especially makes me sad is, that there are so many people here
feeding the trolls. (And yes, sometimes I can't even hold myself back)


In a perfect world, it, would be enough to look at one side of the 
thing. (Yeah, maybe in a perfect world, there would be no need to deal 
with stuff like this.)


But this isn't a perfect world.
So please don't make the mistake an go through this only reading it the 
way you want to see it.


The problem with that kind of threads normally is, that people on 
both(!) sides would rather cut their leg off than admitting, that the 
other person might be right. (Not judging who was right, I have my 
opinion about it, but you might already know that.)


Yes, there have been personal insults, but again on both sides and I 
would rather have hoped, that this wouldn't have happened.

But again, this wasn't a one-side matter.

You mention tons of FUD. That is a really strong phrase and to be 
honest, I didn't see FUD from the Paludis folks.
There was some mess about this Pkgcore bug, but that wasn't actually 
FUD, but the truth, which unfortunately turned into a really ugly thing.

(And maybe got more attention than it deserved.)

Now I guess that someone will reply to me, that this is off-topic on 
this list, which obviously nobody will answer you.

But keep it low, no need to start over again. ;-)

Bernd
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
Ivan Chernyavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
 right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
 thought technical discussions are of most importance here.

You are sadly mistaken. Gentoo hasn't been able to deliver technical
progress for a long time, and anyone attempting to get anywhere will be
met with constant attacks from people who are unable to admit to
themselves that some fairly major changes are needed to allow Gentoo to
keep up with the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, Gentoo is now more concerned about pandering to its
'community' (in reality a small number of prolific forums posters who
run Ubuntu) and stroking the egos of certain old-time staffers who
haven't actually done anything for years. Getting anything done
requires wasting large amounts of time dealing with people who:

* do nothing but post links to that 'poisonous people' talk at random
intervals and accuse people of being useless trolls, thus exhibiting all
the hallmarks of being poisonous useless trolls themselves.

* dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'.

* think that their opinion is important despite them not understanding
what's under discussion.

* immediately claim that any thread with more than five posts is a
flamewar.

* deliberately disguise any point they may or not be making in horridly
broken English (despite being a native speaker) just to wind people up.

* yell about how projects 'aren't sufficiently inclusive' without ever
bothering to either contribute themselves. or check whether anyone else
has tried to contribute.

* refuse to get involved in technical discussions on mailing lists or
irc where people can disagree with them, instead keeping all their
development discussion on their blog where they can delete any comment
questioning their decisions.

* pull silly emo tactics like posting I'm not posting to this list any
more or I'm telling everyone I'm killfileing you or I'm going to
get my employer to end hosting Gentoo hardware unless you do
everything I say in an attempt to disrupt progress even further.

* consider being in an uninformed majority more important than being
correct.

* have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones
busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to
notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group
includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password
and give it to the GNAA.

* use every given opportunity to disrupt things by saying Why haven't
the Portage people contributed to this?, knowing full well that the
Portage person is busy doing other things.

* conveniently forget that Portage is the thing holding Gentoo back.

* will reply to any post suggesting that things are less than perfect
with well go away and fork Gentoo then.

* think that any unanswered posts from people doing any of the above is
sufficient reason for progress to be blocked until all the above are
satisfied, which of course they won't ever be.

And in amongst all of this, if you fight really really hard, you might,
after several months and a whole lot of people trying to kill you,
eventually get agreement upon some very minor technical point that's
necessary to start getting somewhere. Which is a shame, because Gentoo
could quite easily become a lot better than it is.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Constantine D. Kardaris
++ first posts

People keep trolling and there is none to make them stop and that's
sad to watch happening for years.
I'd like to involve also thats y i subscribed but really whats the
motivation to do so?
Feels like all those discussions with users that have been made last
year have been just wasted...

When this is gonna end huh? :\
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread RB
Regardless of the points being made or their validity, this is the
long-standing problem with Gentoo: excessive pride and ego and too
little inability to cooperate internally, much less externally.  Too
many people are treating every discussion (turned argument) as
life-or-death and are unwilling to concede anything.  Sometimes you
have to say, I disagree, but not enough to make waves about it.

This is why we've been bleeding old-guard developers (the quiet ones
that got stuff done and didn't flame) for months and not gaining the
people that carefully examine an environment before they commit.  Some
people just want to quietly go about their business and Do Things
Right, not trudge through hundred-fatwa threads detailing the latest
technical-turned-personal 'discussion'.  For those of you doing the
dev thing for CV points: which will your future employer appreciate
more, fifty pseudo-technical flames or a few highly-informative
documentation posts?  A dozen new packages or a 20MB IRC log detailing
what you hate about infra member $foo?


Get over yourselves.  Please.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400

| * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the ones
| busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently forgetting to
| notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current Council nomination group
| includes the person who abused root powers to sniff out lilo's password
| and give it to the GNAA.
|

Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If not,
are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?

- --
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / SPARC / KDE
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
 | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the
 | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
 | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
 | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers
 | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.
 
 Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
 not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?

I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
the record statements, if you're interested.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
Mike Auty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And yet still you keep fighting? Why?

Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given
up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.

 What do you *need* from Gentoo that you can't get for yourself?

I don't need Gentoo. I do, however, think it would be a shame for all
the work I've put into it over the years to go to waste.

 There's a neat little project called Exherbo you might have heard of.
 It's trying to build up most of those things, and they don't put up
 with incompetent, unknowledgeable people, so I'm sure they'll let you
 in, and I'm sure you'll be happy there.

*yawn*

http://ciaranm.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/paludis-gentoo-and-exherbo/

 I'm quite happy to continue working in a friendly helpful environment,
 where simple questions are most often met with patient answers and
 people are given the chance to learn, improve and help out where they
 can.  I'm happy to keep quietly maintaining my ebuilds and let the
 people whose packages I package come up with the new stuff.  You don't
 seem to be, so perhaps this isn't the right place for you to
 contribute? ~ If you do want to contribute, perhaps you could
 consider the environment you're working in, and be more accommodating
 to it rather than fighting against it?

The environment is a large part of Gentoo's problem. The focus needs
to be taken away from the 'community' (where community means a bunch of
Ubuntu users who make lots of noise on the forums) and put back into
delivering a decent distribution.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Jan Kundrát

Benedikt Morbach wrote:

retired and work on an alternative package manager and a certain
dokument where they try to set gentoo standards from the outside.


Please stop spreading FUD about PMS forcing some standards over Gentoo. 
Get your facts straight before commenting any further, thanks.


Cheers,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub  more beer  /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Thomas Rösner
Hi,

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
 Mike Auty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 And yet still you keep fighting? Why?
 

 Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't given
 up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.
   

If you really think that everyone else around here but a small
minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a future?

Regards,
Thomas
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Jan Kundrát

Luca Barbato wrote:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/#doc_chap5

The latest release of Gentoo Linux is:

Gentoo Linux 2007.0 for Alpha, AMD64, HPPA, IA64, MIPS, PPC, S390, 
SH, SPARC, and x86 architectures. 

Good point, doc team please update those places.


The GDP has zero control over /proj/en/releng (well, in fact any 
developer can commit to that area, but you generally aren't supposed to 
change a project's web page without their approval). This document is 
maintained by releng.


Additionally, if you really expect any action from us (the GDP), please 
file a bug. We don't read every thread on the -dev ML.


Cheers,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub  more beer  /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:11:18 +0200
 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
  On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:42:51 +0100
  Mike Auty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  And yet still you keep fighting? Why?
 
  Because unlike pretty much everyone else around here, I haven't
  given up on Gentoo. I still think it can have a future.
 
 If you really think that everyone else around here but a small
 minority has given up on Gentoo, how can you believe it still has a
 future?

Because a small number of people could deliver the improvements Gentoo
needs to bring it up to speed. And once it's there, most of the people
who are quite content to do the basic work necessary to let Gentoo sit
around in its current state will be quite content to do the basic work
necessary to sit around in its new, improved state.

The problem, of course, is delivering the improvements, and it's not a
primarily technical problem.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Jan Kundrát

Jeroen Roovers wrote:

PS: I wanted to respond to many more of your comments, but then I
always thought: who is this man anyway and does he perhaps contribute
to Gentoo in some obscure way? Now I tend to think you don't.


David seems to be a PMS contributor [1].

Cheers,
-jkt

[1] http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/pms.git

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cd /local/pub  more beer  /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-19 Thread Luca Barbato

Jan Kundrát wrote:
The GDP has zero control over /proj/en/releng (well, in fact any 
developer can commit to that area, but you generally aren't supposed to 
change a project's web page without their approval). This document is 
maintained by releng.


Ok

Additionally, if you really expect any action from us (the GDP), please 
file a bug. We don't read every thread on the -dev ML.


I bugged the releng =)

lu

--

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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[gentoo-dev] What to do when Python 2.5 is blocking your package from entering stable? (Agenda for next council meeting?)

2008-06-19 Thread Samuli Suominen
I don't know about you, but when a package can't be stabled because
it's depending on Python 2.5 and current stable is broken I'd like
to start reverting stable keywords back to ~arch as noone wants to
maintain broken junk. Latest being app-cdr/gtkcdlabel, and
media-video/gaupol. Perhaps it should be a council agenda?

Not much different from slacking arches, it's simple, lack of
active devs. What I would prefer, of course, is a list from one of
python members to get it into stable but have no expetations, since
I've asked it many times past 1-2 years.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-19 Thread Graham Murray
Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * dismiss any technical criticism as being a 'corner case'.

And not appreciate that addressing the 'corner cases' is very important
and not to be dismissed. I have been a software developer (though not a
Gentoo one) for 30 years, and learnt that lesson a long time ago.
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