Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Robin H. Johnson wrote: - What I am asking Gentoo Foundation is, let me fix them Apply to be a developer, then you can fix them. I don't personally have any opinion (positive or negative) about Sabayon, but a former coworker of mine was a big fan. Addendum, the Foundation cannot do anything about that. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Natanael Copa wrote: IIRC thread starter complained about too many wrong RDEPEND. No, the thread started with an attitude problem, still unsolved btw. Problem is not that devs are not willing to fix. Problem is that its to easy to inject wrong RDEPEND in the tree in the first place and only way to get it out from there is to wait for someone to report it. Since many/most devs dont use binpkgs its expected that errors in RDEPEND are there. That could/will be solved with tinderbox checking or other means of automated checks. We need your help since we don't have enough resources to do that by ourselves. Might be i have ideas how to fix but I need to gain some experience with repoman before I present those. Thank you for your offer, I'm looking forward to heard back from you =) lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Natanael Copa wrote: So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right. I wonder what you are looking at :(. You've been told by multiple developers that we do care about dep correctness and are willing to fix bugs when we hear about them. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 10:09 +0100, Jan Kundrát wrote: Natanael Copa wrote: So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right. I wonder what you are looking at :(. IIRC thread starter complained about too many wrong RDEPEND. You've been told by multiple developers that we do care about dep correctness and are willing to fix bugs when we hear about them. Problem is not that devs are not willing to fix. Problem is that its to easy to inject wrong RDEPEND in the tree in the first place and only way to get it out from there is to wait for someone to report it. Since many/most devs dont use binpkgs its expected that errors in RDEPEND are there. Might be i have ideas how to fix but I need to gain some experience with repoman before I present those. -nc -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:35 AM, Fabio Erculiani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm ready. On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Fabio Erculiani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time left for the reporting. What I ask is [...] getting me able to fix stuff So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix them ? Interesting... In any case, we require users to have a consistent history of helping the project before they are considered for recruitment. What you are doing for Sabayon is great but it can't be taken into account. Please find below some information that may be useful to get you started. There are many ways you can help. Two good ways to start helping out are proposing solutions for bugs [1] and contributing to an overlay [2] like Sunrise for example [3]. There is more information on how to get involved with overlay development at [4]. When your contributions become significant enough, developers may contact you (or you can contact them). You may also want to have a look at the staffing needs page [5]. You will need to read the Gentoo Documentation Resources [6], and more specifically the Gentoo Developer Handbook [7] and the Gentoo Development Guide [8]. Another way to help, especially for non-technical projects, is to contact people directly [9]. Be aware that they can be away though, so be patient, try others on the same project, and finally get back to us in case you fail to reach anybody. Do not hesitate to contact recruiters in the future in case you need more information. Best regards, Denis. [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/ [2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/ [3] http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/sunrise/ [4] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/userguide.xml#doc_chap3 [5] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ [6] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=gentoodev [7] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml [8] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ [9] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml?showlevel=2 -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix. great! where is it? does it have a webvc or trac interface? thanks Thilo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
media-libs/x264-svn - dev-lang/yasm dev-libs/lzo - dev-lang/nasm sys-apps/attr - sys-devel/autoconf x11-libs/qt:3 (I reported it a while ago and it got fixed, it was a real mess) net-dialup/capisuite - sys-devel/autoconf dev-libs/xmlsec - sys-devel/autoconf x11-misc/fluxbg - sys-devel/autoconf media-video/effectv - dev-lang/nasm net-voip/linphone - dev-lang/nasm media-sound/gogo - dev-lang/nasm sys-boot/lilo - sys-devel/bin86 app-text/iso-codes - sys-devel/automake These depend on sys-devel/bison, are they correct? app-office/mdbtools-0.6_pre1-r1 www-servers/boa-0.94.14_rc21 media-video/sswf-1.8.0-r1 net-firewall/itval-1.0 app-office/openoffice-2.3.1-r1 sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1 sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1 media-gfx/gliv-1.9.6 These depend on sys-devel/make sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1 sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1 These depend on sys-devel/gcc (remember, only RDEPENDs here) app-text/pdftk-1.41 net-irc/inspircd-1.1.14 app-benchmarks/piozone-1.0-r2 sci-chemistry/xdrawchem-1.9.9 sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1 dev-lang/mono-1.2.6-r1 sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1 www-apache/anyterm-1.1.16 dev-lang/ghc-6.8.2 sci-libs/hdf5-1.6.6 x11-proto/xineramaproto: gnome-extra/gnome-screensaver-2.18.2-r1 media-video/ogle-0.9.2-r1 sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet x11-proto/printproto x11-libs/libXp-1.0.0 app-editors/nvu-1.0-r4 x11-libs/openmotif-2.3.0 x11-libs/openmotif-2.2.3-r9 sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet x11-proto/xproto x11-libs/libXevie-1.0.2 x11-libs/libXdmcp-1.0.2 x11-plugins/asclock-2.0.12-r1 dev-libs/libstroke-0.5.1 sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2 x11-libs/libXv-1.0.3 sys-devel/gcc-4.2.2 x11-libs/libXcomposite-0.4.0 x11-plugins/wmmixer-2.0_beta4-r1 x11-plugins/fsviewer-0.2.5 net-www/gnash-0.8.1-r1 x11-libs/libSM-1.0.3 dev-lang/ocaml-3.10.1 x11-libs/libXt-1.0.5 x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.4 x11-libs/libXcursor-1.1.9 gnome-base/nautilus-2.20.0-r1 media-gfx/gifsicle-1.44 x11-libs/xforms-1.0.90-r1 x11-libs/dnd-1.1-r1 x11-libs/libICE-1.0.4 x11-libs/libXft-2.1.12-r90 x11-terms/eterm-0.9.4 media-gfx/tgif-4.1.45 x11-libs/libFS-1.0.0 x11-libs/libXdamage-1.1.1 x11-libs/libXres-1.0.3 x11-libs/libXrandr-1.2.2 x11-libs/libXfont-1.3.1-r1 x11-libs/libXrender-0.9.4 x11-libs/libXau-1.0.3 app-editors/xvile-9.4d-r1 x11-libs/libast-0.7 media-plugins/vdr-xineliboutput-1.0.0_rc2_p20080120 x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.4 x11-libs/libxsettings-client-0.10 net-dialup/isdn4k-utils-3.11_pre20071003 x11-libs/libX11-1.1.3 x11-libs/libXmu-1.0.3 x11-misc/slim-1.3.0-r1 net-mail/gnubiff-2.2.5 x11-libs/libXfixes-4.0.3 sci-mathematics/snns-4.2-r7 ^^^ do they need x11-proto/xproto as RDEPEND? My time on it for today is over. I'm busy preparing a release, sorry. Probably some of them are ok, but I don't think all. Using http://packages.sabayonlinux.org interface you can query all our bins. -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: media-libs/x264-svn - dev-lang/yasm dev-libs/lzo - dev-lang/nasm I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there, as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct. (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64). sys-apps/attr - sys-devel/autoconf autoconf is in the DEPEND already. Do you want it not there? Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here). -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Infra Guy E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgpPnlmirUp7Z.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Hi Robin, first of all. What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me. This is not a good start. On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: media-libs/x264-svn - dev-lang/yasm dev-libs/lzo - dev-lang/nasm I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there, as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct. (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64). sys-apps/attr - sys-devel/autoconf autoconf is in the DEPEND already. Do you want it not there? Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here). -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Infra Guy E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
[02:31] Halcy0n lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way. ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad. You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from interacting with you. What we do is just trying to do our best, on the desktop, aggregating new technologies and bringing them to users. If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more gentle with users and external contributors. I am not talking to you directly Robin, but to whom are quite annoying and provocative. I know that the majority of you have been always kind, but I will never hang on #gentoo-dev anymore just to be played around giving me voice until I annoy someone with my POV. This is not a democratic way, let's talk publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably get more visibility, don't we? I will review your stuff on lzo probably tomorrow, hope won't be a problem. On 3/13/08, Fabio Erculiani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Robin, first of all. What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me. This is not a good start. On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: media-libs/x264-svn - dev-lang/yasm dev-libs/lzo - dev-lang/nasm I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there, as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct. (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64). sys-apps/attr - sys-devel/autoconf autoconf is in the DEPEND already. Do you want it not there? Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here). -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Infra Guy E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since it was close to useless. While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better on supporting other binary only package managers. -nc -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Natanael Copa kirjoitti: On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since it was close to useless. http://bugs.gentoo.org While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better on supporting other binary only package managers. -nc Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is what it is. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani kirjoitti: [02:31] Halcy0n lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way. ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad. Nope it's not. I already told you on IRC that you weren't understanding Halcy0n properly, at least from my POV. You say you have to maintain many local changes in your overlay and that you don't have the time to send them back upstream (via the official contribution method, bugs.gentoo.org). For me that means that you aren't contributing back upstream. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Natanael and Fabio, Petteri Räty a écrit : Natanael Copa kirjoitti: I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since it was close to useless. http://bugs.gentoo.org I know that we (in the Gnome Herd) will try to fix things when they are reported and I have no doubt other devs will do so as well. But a proper bug report is the way to go if you things to move in any direction. Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is what it is. +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks, we won't know. Cheers -- Rémi Cardona LRI, INRIA [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani wrote: media-libs/x264-svn - dev-lang/yasm dev-libs/lzo - dev-lang/nasm sys-apps/attr - sys-devel/autoconf *snip* Some of those aren't broken, and I just fixed a few media ones in the tree, but that list is similiar to what I was asking for earlier, and a good way to contribute. Thanks Steve -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Fabio Erculiani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [02:31] Halcy0n lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way. ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. While I would agree Halcy0n's statement is slightly exaggerated, it's somewhat true. There are exactly 26 non-duplicates in our bugzilla that you either filed or commented on. You have to admit that for somebody who's been a user for 7 years and who's been architecting (your word) a distribution based on Gentoo for 3 years (or more ? can't remember) this is a ridiculously low number. How do you want us to help you if you don't give us any feedback on what you need ? We're not very good at communicating but we have at least set up some tools for you to use, and the most important of them in your particular case is I believe bugzilla. And don't ask us to read you blog, we can't possibly read everybody's blog. Feedback is part of the game in the open source world. Gentoo itself gives a lot of feedback to upstream projects using upstream's communications tools. If you don't play the game, one thing is sure is that you'll never win. It seems some of you don't even realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad. I'm not sure we should thank you for this. Not that we don't care, but our aim isn't really to compete against say Ubuntu in the users department. Some of us are really happy of the success of Sabayon, there's a place for everybody. We don't make any money out of Gentoo, and do not intend to. We're only a bunch of volunteers who waste their free time doing something they think may be needed. It seems you don't even realize how many users we brought to Sabayon, and this is really sad. You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from interacting with you. I wouldn't agree with you here. But even if you were right, we live in stupid world and Gentoo doesn't claim to be better than what it's made of. Note that we're trying to though. But in the end there are always going to be obnoxious people everywhere. If you give up on the nice guys because of the bad guys, you lose and the bad guys win. That's life. If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more gentle with users and external contributors. I'm trying to believe you are not threatening here because *that* would be stupid. We'd love to be gentle with you. You've just got to make it happen. Denis. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
+1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks, we won't know. I'll kick it off, then. The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as they were on the machine the package was compiled on. Then, when emerging the binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be nice. I'll give an example. Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on =openssl-0.9.7. Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed. Binary package built, no problem. Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has openssl-0.9.7. It installs fine, deps met. But, whoops, there's some symbols missing when we go to use package A on machine 2. After some time, we finally realize it's because we need new openssl. I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of other scenarios. The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're talking about machine 301 and machine 559. If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine, that would be fantastic. Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff, I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway. I'm not complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact. Caleb -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
(I experimented with binpkgs a little while ago in Prefix) On 13-03-2008 10:15:33 -0400, Caleb Tennis wrote: +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks, we won't know. I'll kick it off, then. The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as they were on the machine the package was compiled on. Then, when emerging the binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be nice. I'll give an example. Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on =openssl-0.9.7. Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed. Binary package built, no problem. Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has openssl-0.9.7. It installs fine, deps met. But, whoops, there's some symbols missing when we go to use package A on machine 2. After some time, we finally realize it's because we need new openssl. Isn't that stored in the NEEDED file? I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of other scenarios. The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're talking about machine 301 and machine 559. If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine, that would be fantastic. I guess ideally the SLOTs should match, as for instance libpcre 7.5 and 7.6 work fine as long as libpcre.so.0 is there. (No guarantees) But even, for platforms that need libgcc_s.so.1, any gcc that provides it should be fine. Though luckily gcc is almost never in DEPEND/RDEPEND. Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff, I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway. I'm not complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact. I think binpkgs store more information than you think. It's just that Portage doesn't fully use it (yet). -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo on a different level -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Le jeudi 13 mars 2008 à 10:15 -0400, Caleb Tennis a écrit : +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks, we won't know. I'll kick it off, then. The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as they were on the machine the package was compiled on. Then, when emerging the binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be nice. I'll give an example. Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on =openssl-0.9.7. Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed. Binary package built, no problem. Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has openssl-0.9.7. It installs fine, deps met. But, whoops, there's some symbols missing when we go to use package A on machine 2. After some time, we finally realize it's because we need new openssl. I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of other scenarios. The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're talking about machine 301 and machine 559. If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine, that would be fantastic. Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff, I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway. I'm not complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact. I think remi was more speaking about incorrect deps (say misplaced in RDEPEND) than problems concerning the package manager. In any case, openssl is the perfect example of what can go wrong because of upstream's behavior. The problem is that program A compiled against version X of openssl won't work with version YX. Currently we need to keep X's libs around and run revdep-rebuild to fix this. Most librairies don't cause this problem though so I don't really see this as a bug on the gentoo side even if it's annoying. Anyway, to keep machines using binary in sync without much headache, my current solution is to use a squashfsed portage tree with --deep. It works pretty well. -- Gilles Dartiguelongue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Isn't that stored in the NEEDED file? It very well might be, I'm not much of an expert here :) I think binpkgs store more information than you think. It's just that Portage doesn't fully use it (yet). This is good information to know. Thanks! Caleb -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
I think remi was more speaking about incorrect deps (say misplaced in RDEPEND) than problems concerning the package manager. In any case, openssl is the perfect example of what can go wrong because of upstream's behavior. The problem is that program A compiled against version X of openssl won't work with version YX. Currently we need to keep X's libs around and run revdep-rebuild to fix this. Right, my example was mildly contrived. But I've run into this same issue with packages like ruby and glibc, where the build system had newer versions and you run into symbol issues (or errors like invalid binary format) because you need to upgrade underlying libraries. Most librairies don't cause this problem though so I don't really see this as a bug on the gentoo side even if it's annoying. It's not really Gentoo's fault, no, but it's a problem that could be somewhat fixed. Anyway, to keep machines using binary in sync without much headache, my current solution is to use a squashfsed portage tree with --deep. It works pretty well. Agreed, but the problem is (at least in my case) we're talking about production machines that are actively running, and the customer needs an upgrade of a package but we don't want to take a chance at ruining something else by upgrading --deep if we can help it. From their perspective, they just want it to work (and don't care about what has to be upgraded), but from a sysadmin perspective it's a difficult problem to solve over time, especially when you have 10+ other sysadmins, who all may not know that when you upgrade package X be sure to remember to also upgrade packages Y and Z at the same time or you'll run into problems. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani wrote: ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad. I'm not sure I understand how exactly you bring people to Gentoo. You bring people to your distribution which is a binary rebuilt of Gentoo, AFAIK. Or do you have a steady stream of users drifting away from Sabayon to Gentoo? You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from interacting with you. Us being you or who exactly? Halcy0n was just trying to understand what exactly are you going to improve. If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more gentle with users and external contributors. I am not talking to you directly Robin, but to whom are quite annoying and provocative. I know that the majority of you have been always kind, but I will never hang on #gentoo-dev anymore just to be played around giving me voice until I annoy someone with my POV. Well, I was trying pretty hard last night to hear interesting suggestions from you which could be actually implemented. I have even asked the same questions as Halcy0n did, yet you call him a bad guy and not me. That's strange. Anyway, please take your time to read the following and think about it. Perhaps you'll find out that we aren't a group of lazy and angry morons, but a group of people that respect each other and wants to get technical issues solved, but with limited time at hand. All you said yesterday was I don't have time to wait till my bugs are fixed, gimme access so that I can fix them myself. As we have been trying to tell you in more than two hours, this is not how things work. In Gentoo, we respect other developers' work, so if we see a flaw in their code, we speak to them about it and don't go blindly fixing stuff without prior chat with maintainers. Having more than 13k packages in the three, no single person can be expected to know the whole tree well. That's why we are organized into groups and generally talk to each other before fixing bugs. A change you make might have huge impact on packages you haven't ever heard of. During the chat, you proposed various things like having a mailing lists where child distributions could send bugreports they find. This is not the way to go. We already have a support channel, the Bugzilla. There is really no way to speed up maintainers' reactions. That doesn't depend on how they get the reports, but entirely on their spare time and motivation. If you don't like working with bugzilla's web interface, you've been already offered another access vectors to the bugzilla database. But let me repeat it once again -- if you are worried about maintainers taking long time to respond (where long time is, by your definition, at about more than two hours, if I understand you correctly), there's no way I'm aware of that this could be changed. We are just humans who have to sleep, eat, work, date beautiful girls and drink beer. We are not going to abandon any of these just to make the child distributions happy, sorry. I have quite a mixed feelings about your offer, too -- you said you're willing to fix stuff, yet you refuse to file bugs, giving a reason that it takes time. That doesn't make much sense to me, sorry. If you don't file the bug, the same error will stay in the package, it will propagate to each and every next release and you'll have to fix it over and over again in your code. This is not a democratic way, let's talk publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably get more visibility, don't we? I'm afraid I don't fully understand your point here -- Gentoo is not about democracy as in what majority wants, that happens. If it was such kind of democracy, we'd have reiser4 as a default filesystem for three years now. In Gentoo, things that happen are things that developers want. If you're bored with that, hey, become a developer and change stuff. Asking us to change the way we work, the process that has worked for many years and that we are happy with, just because it might give some benefits to your distribution, while also causing more work for us, that simply won't happen. Please, try to think about our reasons. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:48 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these problems. Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the close to useless comment be our only indication of the perceived problems? Yeah, but IIRC you are a SOURCE distro builder. Arent't you? (I am just asking!) No. I build binary packages. Hell, catalyst uses the binary package support *heavily* for its caching. Do people really think that a pre-compiled stage tarball is source? How about a pre-compiled LiveCD? Anyone? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Games Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:48 -0400, Caleb Tennis wrote: As much as I hate to say it, your example was rather bunk, because openssl changed SONAME during that time. Keeping the package You're right here. After review, the problem was the difference between 0.9.8e and 0.9.8g, the latter of which provided some form of newer symbol that wasn't in e. But the concept is the same. Correct. That would not have been caught and would be an issue, still. Uhh... = in RDEPEND does that, already... Also, this wouldn't have resolved your openssl issue, at all. Your machine scenario above would have still failed, since the minimum version was 0.9.7 on your build host. I'm not talking about meeting the minimum required by the ebuild, I'm talking about the minimum that were installed at the time of the emerge. Well, I sincerely hope that you do not file such a bug, as it would royally screw over the one team in Gentoo that *does* consistently use our binary package support. I don't plan on filing the bug, but if it was an optional emerge option to use the actual version deps vs. the DEPEND of the ebuild, it wouldn't affect you would it? If it were optional, it wouldn't affect us. I'd have no issue with some kind of optional support for this sort of thing. I would definitely like to see the support improved, but not at the expense of doing very stupid things like locking to specific versions/revisions of packages. No offense, but that screams of RPM hell. I'm not trying to lock to any specific version. I'm trying to reproduce on machine 2 the same state of packages that package A was compiled against on machine 1. And even make it optional to do so, via an emerge flag. This is likely usually done by controlling the binrepo. At least, that's how I do it. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Games Developer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I'm not a gentoo-dev - and I did not read the whole thread, because it was too political for me (do I really have to read all these IRC quotes?). But I just had an idea for this topic (don't know if anyone had this already - or if it is not applicable here), that I want to share: Why not try to find someone, who does all the bug filing? - So lxnay can find and fix the bugs - and someone else files the bugs and does the discussing with the gentoo-devs. Then both sides have what they want. Of course, it still takes time to get things into the tree, but this shouldn't be a problem :) (I think). Just an idea - please don't eat me, if it's a silly one ^^ Regards, Necoro -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH2X6a4UOg/zhYFuARAhiWAJ0WzGC6jzRODv9pjezsygRBAUoTWQCfQZro eCQ/dsAY+OZsMvg+ffLGCAc= =NqLb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 01:53:34PM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: Hi Robin, first of all. What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me. This is not a good start. Excuse me? I have never spoken to you on the #gentoo-dev IRC channel, and thus I cannot be 'playing you' there. The only places I have thus communicated with you are this mailing list, and a private IRC discussion. You still haven't responded either to the private IRC, or here, as to what you see about media-libs/x264-svn, dev-libs/lzo or sys-apps/attr is wrong, and I'd really like to know. P.S. Please don't top post. -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer Infra Guy E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgpLBhTMG6t9f.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Rémi Cardona wrote: Natanael Copa a écrit : But somethimes you just need to accept we don't live in a perfect world. I understood early that nobody cares that much about binpkgs anyway and moved on. I'd say you're mistaken. A lot of people care about binpkg. It's not because a majority of devs don't _use_ them that they are not willing to fix bugs for other use cases. If it would be practically possible I would still use RDEPEND. It worked alot better to build stuff around NEEDED. Same thing can be said about other arches or other OSs Gentoo can run on. and hardened. As for the URL you've provided, I don't know what you were trying to demonstrate because about 3/4th of the bugs were marked as fixed, showing me that your patches got accepted. :) Which is good... isn't it? I wanted to demonstrate that I do submit bugs and very often I submit a patch with it. (so I kinda know what bugs.g.o is) I, for one, encourage you to keep opening bug reports. Don't worry, I will. Cheers -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:34 +0100, Natanael Copa wrote: On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since it was close to useless. I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these problems. Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the close to useless comment be our only indication of the perceived problems? Regarding the RDPEND's, there is nothing in the framework protecting the RDEPENDS from be wrong. If its wrong, package still compiles and installs and (almost) everyone is happy. It pulls in unnecessary stuff but who cares? Disk space is cheap. So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right. That doesn't mean i dont submit bugreports. I do and I very often submit a patch. But there is a limit on how much you can fix in upstream before you need to go other ways. (That applies to fixing package splitting upstream as well btw...) -nc -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Natanael Copa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Regarding the RDPEND's, there is nothing in the framework protecting the RDEPENDS from be wrong. If its wrong, package still compiles and installs and (almost) everyone is happy. Just because it compiles and installs, doesn't mean it runs. It pulls in unnecessary stuff but who cares? Disk space is cheap. Not always the case. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Fabio Erculiani wrote: | Hi all, | snip | Cheers interestingly enough ixnay...I've tried contacting you about working together with Gentoo and on things related to eapi as sabayon is one of the more popular distributions that has somewhat of a basis on Gentoo (I've tried approximately 3-4 times in the last year or so) . Every time I tried from 4 different domain accounts including my Gentoo one I was denied the ability to send you an email. While I'm sure many comments are going to be a bit harsh if realistic please do feel free to talk to any of the developers. Splitting isn't really realistic as that is getting away from upstream. As an organization we try to maintain the same way as upstream intends. If they say that mysql is not a collection of server, client then its just mysql. Xorg is a perfect example. It was a huge package, that got split up. It took Donnie and the rest of the X team a while to get everything ready for the tree but we followed upstream in having individual packages for the different aspects of the larger project. Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH2aop2ZWR0Jhg/EsRAkppAJ0e5u5LEfrdHP/FpsgghMm0kd07mQCfRmZP 3rMibnJCkKJih3bsz/VYGpY= =c41u -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Hi Joshua, I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to answer you regarding to your issues :) SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's not that hard. On 3/13/08, joshua jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Fabio Erculiani wrote: | Hi all, | snip | Cheers interestingly enough ixnay...I've tried contacting you about working together with Gentoo and on things related to eapi as sabayon is one of the more popular distributions that has somewhat of a basis on Gentoo (I've tried approximately 3-4 times in the last year or so) . Every time I tried from 4 different domain accounts including my Gentoo one I was denied the ability to send you an email. While I'm sure many comments are going to be a bit harsh if realistic please do feel free to talk to any of the developers. Splitting isn't really realistic as that is getting away from upstream. As an organization we try to maintain the same way as upstream intends. If they say that mysql is not a collection of server, client then its just mysql. Xorg is a perfect example. It was a huge package, that got split up. It took Donnie and the rest of the X team a while to get everything ready for the tree but we followed upstream in having individual packages for the different aspects of the larger project. Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH2aop2ZWR0Jhg/EsRAkppAJ0e5u5LEfrdHP/FpsgghMm0kd07mQCfRmZP 3rMibnJCkKJih3bsz/VYGpY= =c41u -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| Hi Joshua,
| I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to
| answer you regarding to your issues :)
| SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can
| understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is
| about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's
| not that hard.
|
|
|
I personally have no desire to follow the redhat/debian/other binary
packaging systems which split up infinitesimally small packages. It
causes a lot more busywork in my opinion then any potential benefits
that it gains you.
As far as the depend issue you mentioned: Having both Rdepends and
Depends isn't as far as I'm aware part of any EAPI currently (Correct me
if I'm wrong people). Rdepends are needed for the builds so you will
often see either RDEPENDS=${DEPEND} or vice versa. If its not there then
its more of a matter of accounting then anything. I would think, and
correct me if I'm wrong again, that it would make sense that if you only
have RDEPENDS or DEPEND, then those same applications are required in
the runtime of the application. Does it need to be explicitly stated? So
far the three package manager that I'm aware of all manage this fine.
Those being portage, paludis, and pkgcore. If there are other package
managers out there that might have issues Its a perfect example of a
reason to be involved in the EAPI discussions to help define what is
needed and where.
So what I suggest to you is perhaps looking over the EAPI=0 draft
documentation and proposing some additions and or modifications that
benefit everyone (not just one person), as its designed to be a standard
for anyone who makes use of ebuilds and beyond.
http://dev.gentoo.org/~spb/pms.pdf
Is the current form, but halcy0n is working on an updated version of it
for the next council meeting.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFH2bL22ZWR0Jhg/EsRAkduAJsGBKKl5HgR5YXziPn9yOLbi5F5MwCfacIC
b/aqsokP3A6JFJ7hO4LGNXY=
=BGqi
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:25:17 -0700 Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:53 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote: What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev I guess you don't understand that respect has to be earned. Mmm, funny, when I said that, certain people disagreed very loudly... -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Joshua,
I know that draft quite well, I used as reference for writing Entropy,
our binary package manager which only uses {R,P}DEPEND and not DEPEND.
So here comes the issue, when *DEPEND are not declared properly
Entropy pulls in unneeded packaged.
What you are saying is something I am already aware of :) zmedico has
been really helpful :)
On 3/14/08, joshua jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| Hi Joshua,
| I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to
| answer you regarding to your issues :)
| SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can
| understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is
| about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's
| not that hard.
|
|
|
I personally have no desire to follow the redhat/debian/other binary
packaging systems which split up infinitesimally small packages. It
causes a lot more busywork in my opinion then any potential benefits
that it gains you.
As far as the depend issue you mentioned: Having both Rdepends and
Depends isn't as far as I'm aware part of any EAPI currently (Correct me
if I'm wrong people). Rdepends are needed for the builds so you will
often see either RDEPENDS=${DEPEND} or vice versa. If its not there then
its more of a matter of accounting then anything. I would think, and
correct me if I'm wrong again, that it would make sense that if you only
have RDEPENDS or DEPEND, then those same applications are required in
the runtime of the application. Does it need to be explicitly stated? So
far the three package manager that I'm aware of all manage this fine.
Those being portage, paludis, and pkgcore. If there are other package
managers out there that might have issues Its a perfect example of a
reason to be involved in the EAPI discussions to help define what is
needed and where.
So what I suggest to you is perhaps looking over the EAPI=0 draft
documentation and proposing some additions and or modifications that
benefit everyone (not just one person), as its designed to be a standard
for anyone who makes use of ebuilds and beyond.
http://dev.gentoo.org/~spb/pms.pdf
Is the current form, but halcy0n is working on an updated version of it
for the next council meeting.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFH2bL22ZWR0Jhg/EsRAkduAJsGBKKl5HgR5YXziPn9yOLbi5F5MwCfacIC
b/aqsokP3A6JFJ7hO4LGNXY=
=BGqi
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
--
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Hi all, I'm sure I'll find some sabayon-hater here, but my purpose won't be answering to them. I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm ready. Despite some of you might think, I love Gentoo since 2001 :) Cheers -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Fabio Erculiani wrote: I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 The name [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not a valid username. Either you misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla account., that's all what our bugzilla knows about you. Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years. It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog. With love, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree
Hi Jan, I'm registered with lxnay at lxnaydesign dot net. I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time left for the reporting. What I ask is either build a communication channel or getting me able to fix stuff, obviously after having contacted the respective maintainers and talked about the issue. Well, I am saying this utopic thing just because I don't even have time to track down all the issues I found and then report, most of the time I end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix. I tried to report a few bugs, but the response time is quite big and I always have to be quick. So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be useful for both sides. On 3/13/08, Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fabio Erculiani wrote: I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me a lot of headaches (along with localizations). For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105 The name [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not a valid username. Either you misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla account., that's all what our bugzilla knows about you. Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years. It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog. With love, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth -- Fabio Erculiani Information and Communication Technologies Consultant Sabayon Linux Chief Architect http://www.sabayonlinux.org -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
