Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On 20:46 Sun 13 Sep , Ryan Hill wrote: On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:15:34 +0200 Sebastian Pipping webmas...@hartwork.org wrote: Ryan Hill wrote: Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way. I was afraid it could be read in such a way. Handing out fake version numbers would be much easier, wouldn't it? I want every single package int he tree to be stable, up to date and polished. But as our resources are limited let's focus on packages that are most important first. That's actually what I meant by gaming the system. We could keep those particular packages up to the minute, but it wouldn't reflect the state of our distro as a whole. It's a false metric and I don't see the advantage in pandering to it. It's much more important that our packages actually work together than have the highest numbers. At the same time, we also want to ensure that any badly out-of-date packages on there aren't outliers that reflect poorly on our actual average status. And frankly, having any way to monitor popular yet outdated packages is a good thing. -- Thanks, Donnie Donnie Berkholz Developer, Gentoo Linux Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote: Sebastian Pipping posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:00:03 +0200 as excerpted: Duncan wrote: [L]et's get some context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, when compared to the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all the time. I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or Ubuntu). Not forgetting that, but perhaps forgetting how unordinary my own experience was. I came from Mandrake, but researched Gentoo well enough that I was already explaining portage basics based on the material in the Handbook, etc, on the user list (and reading the dev list), before I even had Gentoo installed. My first distro was also Mandrake. I eventually moved endlessly between Red Hat (before forking into Fedora) and Mandrake. The reason was the broken rpm package manager (and repo) which had a peculiar way of naming library .so names which interfered with my hand-built packages. I found Gentoo when a friend of mine told me there was a distro which was capable of producing CPU *optimized* code because all the packages were built from source. At the time (6~7 years ago?), I didn't have idea such distro could exist but that idea made sense and was left hard-coded in my head. That is when I read the *Gentoo philosophy* page (yes, there is people that reads it) and immediately got in love with it. That was Gentoo's biggest selling point for me. Then the handbook followed and you can probably guess the rest of the story. I like to think that if I can do it, everybody can, but regardless of whether they /can/ or not, it's a fact that not everybody /does/, as demonstrated by the fact that people were asking the questions I was answering. I think it is not a matter of capable of doing it or not but rather matching one's needs. It is also a fact that most people *don't get it* when it comes to the question *why gentoo*. I /do/ sometimes forget /that/ end of it, that for whatever reason, not everybody chooses to read the handbook, etc, even if it's ultimately only making the job of sysadmining their own Gentoo boxen an order of magnitude harder than it should be. For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There is three different kinds, one is not in the books afaik and it's no fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. The most confusing stuff for me was to learn all the GNU/Linux basics that I had as granted while using other distros. (...) Just my 2 cents about what mattered to *me* (and still matters) when I moved to Gentoo. -- Angelo Arrifano AKA MiKNiX Gentoo Embedded/OMAP850 Developer Linwizard Developer http://www.gentoo.org/~miknix http://miknix.homelinux.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote:
Jesús Guerrero posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:11:42 +0200 as excerpted:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:02:44 +0200, Sebastian Pipping
webmas...@hartwork.org wrote:
Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a
table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is
per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first
places people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about,
besides Wikpedia and ${distro}.org.
Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from Distrowatch.
Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the usual
binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing.
++
- - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1
but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see what
else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am,
years later using Gentoo.
Dale
:-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 2009-09-13 at 09:36 -0500, Dale wrote: Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from Distrowatch. Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the usual binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing. - - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1 but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see what else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am, years later using Gentoo. What do our market research people tell us? ;-) -a
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Albert Hopkins wrote: On Sun, 2009-09-13 at 09:36 -0500, Dale wrote: Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from Distrowatch. Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the usual binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing. - - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1 but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see what else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am, years later using Gentoo. What do our market research people tell us? ;-) -a Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Dale wrote: Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. - analysing referrer logs - doing polls sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote: Agreed. Yes, overlays are perhaps a bit more trouble to setup than simply maintaining normal tree updates once setup. But let's get some context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, when compared to the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all the time. Gentoo has never been about spoon-feeding and this is no exception. Layman is a great and powerful tool, certainly, and like any powerful tool, it takes a bit of learning to use, before even the user should trust himself with it. =:^) But that's more true of Gentoo itself than it is of layman, and anyone who can manage Gentoo can certainly manage layman with little trouble. I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or Ubuntu). For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There is three different kinds, one is not in the books afaik and it's no fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. Seriously, stuff like the layman setup mess is another tiny reason keeping our user base smaller than needed, keeping our recruiting rates down. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Sebastian Pipping wrote: Dale wrote: Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. - analysing referrer logs - doing polls sebastian Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of those. Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to do and not very accurate? Only very few would respond to a poll. Most would not even know the was going on. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:25:19 -0500, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of those. They are in the web server logs. Apache includes them in the combined log format, or you can add them in a custom log format. So cooperation with Infra is required for this sort of analysis. Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to do and not very accurate? I fail to see the difficulty of both creating and filling out a survey on a forums post. Also, accuracy is always an issue when doing online surveys as people can submit it multiple times, and there's always the kids that just click something out of boredom. Don't think that problem is specific to Gentoo polls. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Alex Legler wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:25:19 -0500, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of those. They are in the web server logs. Apache includes them in the combined log format, or you can add them in a custom log format. So cooperation with Infra is required for this sort of analysis. Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to do and not very accurate? I fail to see the difficulty of both creating and filling out a survey on a forums post. Also, accuracy is always an issue when doing online surveys as people can submit it multiple times, and there's always the kids that just click something out of boredom. Don't think that problem is specific to Gentoo polls. Alex As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the forums and I would have no idea they happened. Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even know the mailing lists exists. I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means is used. Add in the kids you thought of and it just adds more confusion. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:08:38 -0500, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the forums and I would have no idea they happened. That might be /your personal/ behavior. Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even know the mailing lists exists. Do the poll in the Forums. Advertise it on planet, some MLs, maybe the g.o front page, and on IRC. That way we reach the users that don't go to the forums, but are on IRC, and the folks that are on the forums but don't know of the MLs and vice-versa. Of course there'll be still people that don't know anything about the thing, but *shrug*. Those who care, know. And those who don't care, don't need to know, we have made our effort to reach people. I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means is used. Maybe that is something we just need to live with. Guess all the other people who do Internet polls do. Besides, what can we lose? I don't think Sebastian would mind preparing and posting the survey. A little more community participation and a little less time spent talking instead of doing would do us good. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Alex Legler wrote: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:08:38 -0500, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the forums and I would have no idea they happened. That might be /your personal/ behavior. May be true but someone else mentioned that back when I was going to the forums. I hadn't thought of it until then. Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even know the mailing lists exists. Do the poll in the Forums. Advertise it on planet, some MLs, maybe the g.o front page, and on IRC. That way we reach the users that don't go to the forums, but are on IRC, and the folks that are on the forums but don't know of the MLs and vice-versa. Of course there'll be still people that don't know anything about the thing, but *shrug*. Those who care, know. And those who don't care, don't need to know, we have made our effort to reach people. I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means is used. Maybe that is something we just need to live with. Guess all the other people who do Internet polls do. Besides, what can we lose? I don't think Sebastian would mind preparing and posting the survey. A little more community participation and a little less time spent talking instead of doing would do us good. Alex I agree that you can only put forth your best effort. I just wouldn't etch the results in stone. Maybe a pencil would be OK tho. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Ryan Hill wrote: Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way. I was afraid it could be read in such a way. Handing out fake version numbers would be much easier, wouldn't it? I want every single package int he tree to be stable, up to date and polished. But as our resources are limited let's focus on packages that are most important first. Also, screw DW. I'd be interested to hear details about your attitude off-list. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
What I personally think out of all this situation is nice propaganda for Gentoo, which we could somehow exploit in 'our benefit'. Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? On 3/20/07, Philip Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 070319 Michael Krelin wrote: someone wrote : Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with But seriously, folks ... (smile). -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote: What I personally think out of all this situation is nice propaganda for Gentoo, which we could somehow exploit in 'our benefit'. Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? If nothing else, it does prove that the development community is vibrant, active, and as a whole does not tolerate the bickering which has been the downfall of many other development groups. On 3/20/07, Philip Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 070319 Michael Krelin wrote: someone wrote : Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with But seriously, folks ... (smile). -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Join Gentoo NOW! We care! or I want YOU for Gentoo! On 3/20/07, Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ioannis Aslanidis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? Into S/M? Join Gentoo today! V-Li -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
I like that one! :) On 3/20/07, Christian Ulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Emerge your life! Join Gentoo! On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 10:59 +0100, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote: Join Gentoo NOW! We care! or I want YOU for Gentoo! On 3/20/07, Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ioannis Aslanidis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? Into S/M? Join Gentoo today! V-Li -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
070319 Michael Krelin wrote: someone wrote : Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with But seriously, folks ... (smile). Indeed, I am not. Thanks for clarification. The only consolation I have now is that I'm not an expert in common tricks of stand-up comedians in my native language either ;-) (it doesn't imply any lack of sense of humor, though). Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 20.03.2007 um 09:35 schrieb Ioannis Aslanidis: What I personally think out of all this situation is nice propaganda for Gentoo, which we could somehow exploit in 'our benefit'. Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? Gentoo is hot. Just look at all the flames. Robert -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFF/+hZyZx3L/ph1soRAtjkAJ9tfAS/PECSTAM9id78dBqoADAuTACeLm0o Zk61RV70fqw5r1id1fC2Zms= =nMak -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
That was neat :) On 3/20/07, Robert Buchholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 20.03.2007 um 09:35 schrieb Ioannis Aslanidis: What I personally think out of all this situation is nice propaganda for Gentoo, which we could somehow exploit in 'our benefit'. Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? Gentoo is hot. Just look at all the flames. -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Fri, 2007-03-16 at 21:28 -0400, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Wednesday 14 March 2007, Caleb Cushing wrote: Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were those rankings are less significant/accurate than slashdot polls ;) Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch ranking means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On 19/03/07, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch ranking means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. -- fwiw I guess most of us got it ;-) -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch ranking means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. I am sorry then. I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter, not the one you were answering to. The sad part is that it's not improbable that it could be serious. After all, I think you can't help noticing that rankings were brought up somehow. Love, H -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
070319 Michael Krelin wrote: someone wrote : Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with But seriously, folks ... (smile). -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wednesday 14 March 2007, Caleb Cushing wrote: Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were those rankings are less significant/accurate than slashdot polls ;) -mike pgpZnsXGFA6wU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Who cares about views? It is our distro and we just like to make it better. Right? There is a plethora of potential Gentoo developers out there and this sort of press does nothing for getting them any closer to joining the effort. Secondly, regarding the DW article, surely if it was as baseless as many members of this list suggest, and I am not referring to the specific references in the article, but to the underlying reasons the author may have decided to write it, then DW should have immediately been corrected on the issue and made to publish a retraction. I am not sure this is the case and, while I am only a user and casual contributor, I have become more and more aware of the grumblings and (perceived?) increase in turnover of developers. Thus, with all respect due to current and past developers, could I suggest that regardless of whether or not the DW article is worth consideration, the process of adopting the Communication CoC and the structures required to implement it be followed through in the best interests of all developers and users of the Gentoo project. -- Warwick Chapman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:54 +0100 Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ps. If someone wanted to start a gentoo-politics, by all means, go ahead, just don't expect anyone to read it. That's not such a bad idea, really. I don't mean creating -politics as such, but the idea of separating out these long debates from -dev, so that -dev can focus on technical issues (is this eclass ok, last rites, how do I do X,Y,Z in ebuilds etc). When these big debates arise, discussion could be shunted to the separate list, requiring those who care enough to join the debate, to join that list, which may help limit the number of people who get involved. Perhaps gentoo-discuss. -- Kevin F. Quinn signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Warwick Bruce Chapman wrote: There is a plethora of potential Gentoo developers out there and this sort of press does nothing for getting them any closer to joining the effort. I consider myself a potential Gentoo developer, although as I stated in my first post I simply don't have the time. I'd have to stop doing something else I love to do this. Most of the packages I'm interested in are very well maintained anyhow. In any event, the Distrowatch article did not change either my perception of the quality of Gentoo or rule out me volunteering as a developer. What it did do is prompt me to reply to the DistroWatch message board, as I often do. And I said essentially what I've said here -- I am still a Gentoo loyalist and I haven't seen a decrease in the day-to-day quality of Gentoo for *any* reason. Secondly, regarding the DW article, surely if it was as baseless as many members of this list suggest, and I am not referring to the specific references in the article, but to the underlying reasons the author may have decided to write it, then DW should have immediately been corrected on the issue and made to publish a retraction. I am not sure this is the case and, while I am only a user and casual contributor, I have become more and more aware of the grumblings and (perceived?) increase in turnover of developers. It isn't just DistroWatch any more. I'm here because there was an announcement on the Gentoo front page that a code of conduct was being discussed on the mailing list. Hell, there was even a mailto link to subscribe! As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps someone could find out just how gentoo.org ranks in web page hit statistics compared to Debian, Fedora, openSuSE and Ubuntu. So -- Gentoo's home page -- the marketing face of the distro to the world -- invites one and all to join a discussion on a code of conduct, and most of us, even advanced users, have no idea of the context. That's both good and bad. It's good -- very good, IMHO -- because it shows that the community is open to feedback and is willing to announce that. And it's bad because you don't in general want negativity on your front page. Thus, with all respect due to current and past developers, could I suggest that regardless of whether or not the DW article is worth consideration, the process of adopting the Communication CoC and the structures required to implement it be followed through in the best interests of all developers and users of the Gentoo project. +1, as they say on other lists, with the proviso that the discussion continue until all have been heard. Processes like this take as long as they take. -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P) http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Kevin F. Quinn wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:54 +0100 Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ps. If someone wanted to start a gentoo-politics, by all means, go ahead, just don't expect anyone to read it. That's not such a bad idea, really. I don't mean creating -politics as such, but the idea of separating out these long debates from -dev, so that -dev can focus on technical issues (is this eclass ok, last rites, how do I do X,Y,Z in ebuilds etc). When these big debates arise, discussion could be shunted to the separate list, requiring those who care enough to join the debate, to join that list, which may help limit the number of people who get involved. Perhaps gentoo-discuss. Which is exactly what I suggested ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Christian Faulhammer wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. V-Li And something good is coming from it too. They are setting up rules so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again. The mess in the last couple weeks was not the first either. It will happen again if nothing is done. Dale :D :D :D :D -- www.myspace.com/-remove-me-dalek1967
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:29:38 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And something good is coming from it too. Implementing policy based upon tabloid rantings is hardly 'something good'... If someone were to publish an article saying Embedded and arch support is killing Gentoo by forcing all the development effort into supporting minority platforms rather than those of interest to the majority of users, would Gentoo immediately institute a policy dropping support for embedded and non-mainstream archs? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org Web : http://ciaranm.org/ Paludis, the secure package manager : http://paludis.pioto.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On 14/03/07, Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. V-Li Ha. This is like the Is the Linux desktop dead FUD I read a few months ago - IIRC it got deservedly derisive comments from the people on this list when I posted it here. FWIW, that was not written by the same author, but it could have been. News commentary sites are like the stock market - when something insignificant but bad happens the stock goes way down (= doom is predicted), when something insignificant but good happens the stock goes way up (= whatever they're writing about is the cure for cancer, c.) It's the same prophets of doom who came out of the woodwork over the DuncTank affair in Debian that, in the main, are posting this rubbish. Gentoo will die sooner or later - everything does - but I for one am not going to bury it just because it has stubbed its toe. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 19:10:06 +0100, Christian Faulhammer wrote: Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If someone were to publish an article saying Embedded and arch support is killing Gentoo by forcing all the development effort into supporting minority platforms rather than those of interest to the majority of users, would Gentoo immediately institute a policy dropping support for embedded and non-mainstream archs? If it was true, it should. So are you saying that the bullshit of the DW article is true? And how do you define true anyway, in a manner where a majority (if not all) devs would agree on? /Alexandre -- Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature. pgpVsVGMsAPFn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:18:58 +0100 Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. Who cares about views? It is our distro and we just like to make it better. Right? Kind regards, JeR -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Jeroen Roovers wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:18:58 +0100 Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. Who cares about views? It is our distro and we just like to make it better. Right? Kind regards, JeR Well ... I as a user and Gentoo loyalist certainly care. As long as Gentoo is available and suits my needs better than any of the alternatives, I'll continue to use it and defend it in places like Distrowatch when it gets trashed. But unacceptable behavior of anyone -- a developer or a user -- is just that -- *unacceptable*. And a lack of an effective way of dealing with it *will* kill Gentoo. -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P) http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:29:38 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And something good is coming from it too. They are setting up rules so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again. I believe the move towards creating the CoC was in the pipeline before these outside events took place; it was a response to the surge on gentoo-dev itself, and as such an internally instigated matter. The pressure to get the draft approved in the ridiculously short period of three days in the middle of a week does look like it was affected by the bad PR in junk outlets like DW. If that is the case, then it is most definitely a bad thing. The mess in the last couple weeks was not the first either. It will happen again if nothing is done. That's the exact opposite of my reading. The so-called mess in the last couple of weeks is nothing so unusual - happens every few months or so, and IMO it's more about steam venting than the specific issues at hand at the time. Responding to the sort of pathetic blogging seen on Distrowatch is a bad thing, its sends the signal that rantings on the blog-o-sphere are due some respect, which the article of the 13th certainly does not. -- Kevin F. Quinn signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:18:58 +0100 Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. Yeah; isn't the blog-o-sphere great :/ For a dying distro, we're showing up pretty active on http://cia.navi.cx/ - but then I guess DW aren't interested in anything so mundane as facts. Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... -- Kevin F. Quinn signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were 7 in '04 9 '05 10 '06 11-12 '07 right now were 12 going up probably from all the sites saying negative things. funny sabayon a gentoo fork and overlay is in 8. I know these statistics aren't 100% accurate (given how they're generated) but maybe they mean something.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 20:56:51 +0100, Caleb Cushing wrote: Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were 7 in '04 9 '05 10 '06 11-12 '07 right now were 12 going up probably from all the sites saying negative things. funny sabayon a gentoo fork and overlay is in 8. I know these statistics aren't 100% accurate (given how they're generated) but maybe they mean something. It probably also means that we are not the latest trendy distro with bells and whistles everywhere. But I don't think that basing anything on DW rankings is really a good idea (and how can one rank a distribution anyway? we don't even know how many users we have!) /Alexandre -- Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature. pgp3k6tonTW7d.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Alexandre Buisse wrote: On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 20:56:51 +0100, Caleb Cushing wrote: Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were 7 in '04 9 '05 10 '06 11-12 '07 right now were 12 going up probably from all the sites saying negative things. funny sabayon a gentoo fork and overlay is in 8. I know these statistics aren't 100% accurate (given how they're generated) but maybe they mean something. It probably also means that we are not the latest trendy distro with bells and whistles everywhere. But I don't think that basing anything on DW rankings is really a good idea (and how can one rank a distribution anyway? we don't even know how many users we have!) /Alexandre Why would your server or random user visit distrowatch any way? Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wed, 2007-03-14 at 18:18 +0100, Christian Faulhammer wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. Gentoo will die the moment nobody cares for it any more; as long as big news sites care to spread some FUD about it every now and then, this is definitely not the case! so heads up - Gentoo is a great distro! -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Christian Faulhammer wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. V-Li Gentoo will never die; it will just get forked and carry on. ;-) Mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Caleb Cushing [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: right now were 12 going up probably from all the sites saying negative things. funny sabayon a gentoo fork and overlay is in 8. I know these statistics aren't 100% accurate (given how they're generated) but maybe they mean something. Maybe part of the reason is that the list of package versions for Gentoo on distrowatch is inaccurate. For example it gives the versions of gcc and glibc in 'unstable' as 3.4.6 and 2.3.6 respectively when the actual versions are 4.1.2 and 2.5 respectively. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Caleb Cushing wrote: Perhaps they're more interested in generating ad revenue from whipped-up scandals... or maybe they have a point. distrowatch hpd ranking show's us down from a few years ago we were 7 in '04 9 '05 10 '06 11-12 '07 Yeah, the good old days when Gentoo was the new cool kid in block were over. right now were 12 going up probably from all the sites saying negative things. funny sabayon a gentoo fork and overlay is in 8. I know these statistics aren't 100% accurate (given how they're generated) but maybe they mean something. If you analyze a moment what kind of users navigate through available distros on DW, you will actually see that our rank is better than before. The users that end up on DW, searching for a new distro to fit their needs, are looking mostly for a desktop distro. Since Sabayon is mostly a pre-installed Gentoo build for desktop purposes, we could claim that our score is actually Gentoo.HPD + Sabayon.HPD. On the last 6 months, this would place us on the 4th rank. Not bad for a meta-distribution, isn't it? :) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Wednesday 14 March 2007, Kevin F. Quinn wrote: That's the exact opposite of my reading. The so-called mess in the last couple of weeks is nothing so unusual - happens every few months or so, and IMO it's more about steam venting than the specific issues at hand at the time. Responding to the sort of pathetic blogging seen on Distrowatch is a bad thing, its sends the signal that rantings on the blog-o-sphere are due some respect, which the article of the 13th certainly does not. Personally I couldn't care less what anyone (e.g. distrowatch) is writing about gentoo. What I do see however is that the atmosphere on -dev has become such (and is still, even after the latest big flame) that arguments (that often get personal) dominate the discussions. The bad part about it is that it drives away users interested in development, and even worse, developers. This has developed to a point where development discussions is hardly held on the -dev list. I want to stop the main gentoo development forum from becomming a debian^H^H^H^H^H^Hgentoo-politics. Paul ps. If someone wanted to start a gentoo-politics, by all means, go ahead, just don't expect anyone to read it. -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgprrQKZpDyVy.pgp Description: PGP signature
