Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Wiktor Wandachowicz wrote: Simon Stelling wrote: Edgar Hucek wrote: I know my tools but not necessarly the normal user who wanna use gentoo and is ending frustrated. If the users are too lazy to read the documentation, why should we care about them? Because we risk that Gentoo may receive the user-UN-friendly label and become irrelevant in the long run? I know it ain't gonna happen, but still. Both Edgar and you have some valid points. He refers mostly to the out-of-box experience, which includes compiling GNOME and its dependencies at the install time. With USE=accessibility enabled, which makes perfect sense for people with disabilities. And then the first-ever Gentoo installation breaks on the speech-tools and festival. How would *you* feel in such case? You OTOH bring to the table a fact that developers shouldn't be that much concerned with the stabilization/testing of packages before new release of installation media. But new releases *ARE* targeted specifically at new users and it's them who suffer the most. Next to it is the reputation of Gentoo and its developers. Edgar's call was targeted mostly at releng and QA teams, who should poke developers to decrease number of similar problems. I maintain a bunch of Debian/sparc, Debian/i386, Gentoo/amd64, Gentoo/x86, Solaris/sparc, Ubuntu/i686 boxes and mind you, out-of-box experience at install time means A LOT. More respect to the users = more respect to Gentoo. Let's see... Several points (misunderstandings) need to be clarified. 1) Gentoo is not intended to be an out-of-the-box distro, but instead, a customizable distro. Can see the difference?.. There are many, one of them is that users should 'make' the process of using Gentoo _friendly_ partially by themselves through reading documentation and tutorial when needed (and sometimes going through a list of bugs to know what it is going on). 2) Gentoo releases are very.touppercase different to most of the other distros. Gentoo releases are mainly intended to be used as a tool to get you started building your _own_ system in an automatic way through scripts/metadata, this being very different to other distros, where they simply force you to use version 6.6.6 as a bunch of dead packages that won't likely suffer any major changes within the next 6 months until upgrading (which can be a very painful process) to the next 6.6.7 release. This is precisely why i say Gentoo is an incremental meta-distro. 3) Considering the two points above, i therefore think , there is no point (and actually makes no sense) to bitch at our releng team (which did a great job) because two packages don't currently compile. 4) Gentoo is more a community than anything else. So we indeed all deserve respect. Some developers put into this project (the releng team being one of them) a lot of effort, so making comments like this thread might be very insulting for many people; apart of making false claims that could lead to a bunch of misconceptions. Now who is being disrespectful? If neither of those points are convincing enough, then remember free software comes with *NO-WARRANTY* Thanks, My 0.2bs -- Luis F. Araujo araujo at gentoo.org Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Luis Francisco Araujo wrote: If neither of those points are convincing enough, then remember free software comes with *NO-WARRANTY* s/free// Even payware is w/out warranties. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Either MTA or MUA brokeness. Another email I have to send a second time. :( On Sunday 03 September 2006 00:42, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote: And waiting other 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 months won't change the thing. Why? Because we have _no_ accessibility team right now. Well, the bug is assigned to williamh, who is not /completely/ inactive. I wonder, if only 37 commits in more than two years suffices for cvs access, though. If we had one, the problem would have been solved. Unfortunately that software is doomed to lag behind the rest of Gentoo unless someone maintain it. If it wasn't for the need of that software by some users, probably treecleaners would have removed that already. In _this_ particular case, the notice interval is not important. You're wrong here. What I'm inclined about is that we had (leastwise) a fourteen day short notice to when the releaase snapshot would be taken. To the end of this time frame there was another one that we'd release with GCC 4.x. Even if we had enough people to deal with everything thrown at us,it would have been impossible to fix and stabilize the relevant packages on all architectures. If I had known this as estimated goal two months earlier, I'd had switched to GCC 4.x a while before and noticed the bug, instead when it is too late. I consider this part of what is broken within Gentoo communication-wise. Carsten pgp7FXmWvXFt3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
On Sunday 03 September 2006 00:42, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote: And waiting other 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 months won't change the thing. Why? Because we have _no_ accessibility team right now. Well, the bug is assigned to williamh, who is not /completely/ inactive. I wonder, if only 37 commits in more than two years suffices for cvs access, though. If we had one, the problem would have been solved. Unfortunately that software is doomed to lag behind the rest of Gentoo unless someone maintain it. If it wasn't for the need of that software by some users, probably treecleaners would have removed that already. In _this_ particular case, the notice interval is not important. You're wrong here. What I'm inclined about is that we had (leastwise) a fourteen day short notice to when the releaase snapshot would be taken. To the end of this time frame there was another one that we'd release with GCC 4.x. Even if we had enough people to deal with everything thrown at us,it would have been impossible to fix and stabilize the relevant packages on all architectures. If I had known this as estimated goal two months earlier, I'd had switched to GCC 4.x a while before and noticed the bug, instead when it is too late. I consider this part of what is broken within Gentoo communication-wise. Carsten pgpakM3TID5rc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 07:41 +, Wiktor Wandachowicz wrote: its developers. Edgar's call was targeted mostly at releng and QA teams, who should poke developers to decrease number of similar problems. Sorry, but Release Engineering has no wishes to become the Gentoo Developer Babysitting Project at this time. We would much prefer work on our release media. If some project, for any reason, is not up to snuff, it is *not* our job to fix it. There are simply too many projects out there. Would you rather we switch to a Debian model where everything has to be perfect, but we don't release for 5 years? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 07:41 +, Wiktor Wandachowicz wrote: its developers. Edgar's call was targeted mostly at releng and QA teams, who should poke developers to decrease number of similar problems. Sorry, but Release Engineering has no wishes to become the Gentoo Developer Babysitting Project at this time. We would much prefer work on our release media. If some project, for any reason, is not up to snuff, it is *not* our job to fix it. There are simply too many projects out there. Would you rather we switch to a Debian model where everything has to be perfect, but we don't release for 5 years? I'd rather have people ignore trolls (hi Enrico in disguise) If something is broken and _NOBODY_ noticed it before either: - it isn't a showstopper for most of the devs and we hadn't got the complaints from our users - it should be p.masked or updated with medium priority. if our favourite cu-troll wants to point that some programs written by a dog are ugly he could use the same time to fill a proper bug and or provide patches. that said releng has the duty to just provide a livecd that works and stages that could be used to start getting a working system and I think they succeeded as usual. There are some known issue pointed already but nothing could be perfect. Release quickly release often maybe isn't really THE solution, but make it to the deadline decently well and plan a -r1 to address some of the known issues that could hit more people in the future(eg new hw support) looks good enough. that said I hope that the sales on trollfood will end ... -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
On 02/09/06, Edgar Hucek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Realy funny, i only hear exuses but no real solution for the problem.The universe ending before testing is finished is a pretty good excuse.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Edgar Hucek wrote: Just a side hint. Try to enable all flags at the first cimpile time would reduce trys drasticaly ;) If you had a look at the php ebuild (just because we took it as example here), you'd see that it is a bit more complicated than just enabling everything to have everything tested. So you say a developer cant't test all useflags? That is a strange message from you. How can a developer garantee that his package is correct. He can't. That's what we're saying. Nobody said we can, nor do, nor want to. Realy funny, i only hear exuses but no real solution for the problem. You have heard the real solution for the specific problems you pointed out: File a bug. You have also heard why it is impossible to guarantee that it simply works. The fact is, that long outstanding bugs are simple ignored. If a useflag would only apply to one package it could be ok, but not when the same useflag is in other packages and makes this one useflag for the normal user unusable. man portage: package.use Per-package USE flags. Useful for tracking local USE flags or for enabling USE flags for certain packages only. Perhaps you develop GTK and thus you want documen- tation for it, but you don't want documentation for QT. Easy as pie my friend! Format: - comments begin with # - one DEPEND atom per line with space-delimited USE flags Example: # turn on docs for GTK 2.x =x11-libs/gtk+-2* doc # disable mysql support for QT x11-libs/qt -mysql Know your tools, man. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Edgar Hucek wrote: Danny van Dyk schrieb: This hasn't yet investigated allt he possible combinations of packages depending on dev-lang/php, or the ~10,000 other packages in the tree. Danny Just a side hint. Try to enable all flags at the first cimpile time would reduce trys drasticaly ;) Yes, it would indeed drastically reduce the time to almost zero due to use flag collisions... :) So you say a developer cant't test all useflags? That is a strange message from you. No, even PHP devs can't test them all, and definitely not all their combinations (simple maths, see previous mail). Not to mention that some of the flags require commercial software installed that's not in portage, so they are actually unsupported. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Edgar Hucek wrote: I know my tools but not necessarly the normal user who wanna use gentoo and is ending frustrated. If the users are too lazy to read the documentation, why should we care about them? -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
I know my tools but not necessarly the normal user who wanna use gentoo and is ending frustrated. cu Edgar (gimli) Hucek Enrico? Is that you in disguise? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Edgar Hucek wrote: Danny van Dyk schrieb: Am Samstag, 2. September 2006 13:18 schrieb Edgar Hucek: 2.) Enable the use flage accessibility gnome cant be merged. It fails on compile the speech-tools. It seams that USE flags are not realy tested or how can it happen that there are already know bugs in the stable distro ? http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116030 Festival and the speech-tools are well know not to compile with gcc =4. Well, you know - if you go to read the speech-tools/festival co. bug, and read the ebuild, you'll see that the whole thing and code is one huge mess, that doesn't compile even w/ gcc-3.3 without patching. You'd probably prefer to never put out a new release, I guess? How many people are using this one, and how does it justify delaying the release even more? From my point of view, should it be garanted that a package and depencies compiles when all use flags are enabled. If a depency can't be compiled the use flag and depence should be dissabled/removed from a package. Please _think_ before you make such a demand. Just a small investigation would show this: dev-lang/php-5.1.4-r6 has _96_ USE flags. That makes 2^96 = 7.9928+28 combinations. Given the (unreasonable) assumption that each compilation would only take 1s and each compilation would actually succeed, you'd still have ~8e28 seconds. The age of the universe is approximately 4e17 seconds. This hasn't yet investigated allt he possible combinations of packages depending on dev-lang/php, or the ~10,000 other packages in the tree. Danny Just a side hint. Try to enable all flags at the first cimpile time would reduce trys drasticaly ;) So you say a developer cant't test all useflags? That is a strange message from you. How can a developer garantee that his package is correct. Realy funny, i only hear exuses but no real solution for the problem. The fact is, that long outstanding bugs are simple ignored. If a useflag would only apply to one package it could be ok, but not when the same useflag is in other packages and makes this one useflag for the normal user unusable. cu Edgar (gimli) Hucek Edgar- You clearly have absolutely no idea how development and testing happens. This is *free* software with no warranty. Our releases are tested with the profile defaults provided in the release. Nothing more. If that's not good enough for you, please find a distribution that you have to pay for like RHEL. Their testing is no better than ours, but at least paying something entitles you to bitch at them. - -- === Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead Gentoo Developer Relations Gentoo Recruitment Lead Gentoo Infrastructure GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05 === -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBRPmNU4BrouQZ9K4FAQLu0QQAwHVnw/zCbHTjDLb3h50tMiUkdgfhZTpF sEYpsee/LlgYpoVqZoukOQ7X3h8N5uRaHNU/SkcS6blMYGNGhdbPuu9taOylp+x1 6BoXi7FlA3tbSpmRQQdsSO3/fqWwS26lHYKtvkYkhFfqjSP+wd3NZPBlUH4hVpbo id2I+hvq8R0= =3jiw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 08:55:33AM -0500, Mike Doty wrote: If that's not good enough for you, please find a distribution that you have to pay for like RHEL. Their testing is no better than ours, but at least paying something entitles you to bitch at them. Or consider paying a Gentoo developer [*] as your first level support person, and liaison with Gentoo. Thus they consult for you, and tell you if your specific combinations are going to work, and do their hardest to keep them working. But don't forget to heed their warnings of what you should and shouldn't do. I believe there are several developers that are unemployed, and would like more work of this nature. * I'm aware that myself and several other developers do this in various ways, most commonly by having our regular employer task us with making sure that changes in Gentoo won't break what we do. However I'm not taking any new consulting clients presently. -- Robin Hugh Johnson E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 pgp7RyO7m39zC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
Seems my message got swallowed... On Saturday 02 September 2006 15:36, Edgar Hucek wrote: Just a side hint. Try to enable all flags at the first cimpile time would reduce trys drasticaly ;) There are lots of use flag combinations incompatible with each other within a package as well as packages relying on other ones to be build with or without use flags of other packages. The number of pssoble combinations would is too high, even if we had build servers running around the clock. In case of point two, you're right, that it doesn't let Gentoo look good. Neither Gnome nor KDE (no use flag in this case) accessibiliy stuff builds now - and bug 116030 is open since nine months. Partly the problem is that we're understaffed, partly - and this is my very personal opinion - the problem is that releasing with GCC 4.x has been rushed - speak the notice came one or two months too late. Carsten pgprBvF4mMjmx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: The Age of the Universe
On Sunday 03 September 2006 00:16, Carsten Lohrke wrote: Neither Gnome nor KDE (no use flag in this case) accessibiliy stuff builds now - and bug 116030 is open since nine months. And waiting other 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 months won't change the thing. Why? Because we have _no_ accessibility team right now. If we had one, the problem would have been solved. Unfortunately that software is doomed to lag behind the rest of Gentoo unless someone maintain it. If it wasn't for the need of that software by some users, probably treecleaners would have removed that already. In _this_ particular case, the notice interval is not important. -- Diego Flameeyes Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/ Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgp5nlXyUJjEz.pgp Description: PGP signature
