Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Flammie Pirinen wrote: 2005-11-25, Curtis Napier sanoi, jotta: I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. Not really. So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to Aarons's reference. [...] Check out what I did change in the meantime. Uh-oh. The usability regression from what the site was yesterday is unbelievable. Almost all of the texts are too small to read again, and the color combinations are also unreadable again. I hope that you and Aaron are still going to take into account at least all the usability related requests from the feedback you asked, because I'd be pretty annoyed to see yet another web site redesign that manages to make original website even more unusable than it was. Sorry, I should have been a little more clear. What I meant in my last email is that I would get the site to match Aarons current reference and then he and I, working together as a team, would then address all the issues that were brought up during the last round of feedback. Aarons input as the designer will be make it so much easier to make sure those accessibilty/other feedack is incorporated in a way that is pleasing to look at and integrates with Aarons original design. This is how it should have been done from the beginning as I already said in my last email. Sorry for any confusion. ps. I'm moving all discussion of this to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. I'll start a new thread there right now. Anyone who wants to participate should sign up for that list. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Curtis Napier wrote: gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as possible. IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as announced by MS), how is that considered supported ? Is it even still distributed within MacOSX Tiger ? http://secunia.com/graph/?type=solperiod=allprod=2678 http://secunia.com/advisories/13356/ http://secunia.com/advisories/12920/ http://secunia.com/advisories/10500/ Now people can also use NCSA Mosaic. It's valid as long as you can run it. But a browser with vulns, unsupported by the vendor, with a broken CSS, I think you do not have to support it. Well of course, if you like it just do it ;) Oh btw, *great* progress on the design. Two things that I still find a bit wrong though: - I find code boxes ugly. Maybe its some useability thing, is easier to see, I dont' know, but its ugly ;) - The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you look for links. I'll take an example: http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml I am in 1024x768 and I don't see the boxes if I don't scroll. I don't think you acn reduce every page so that you see them without scrolling. Unfortunately I dont see any good solution. Maybe it'll stay this way. I would put more than 2 news items on the front page then, even if it also hides the boxes a bit on 800x600 or 1024, because it doesnt give much info to have 2 items per news page ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 12:14 +, kang wrote: Now people can also use NCSA Mosaic. It's valid as long as you can run it. But a browser with vulns, unsupported by the vendor, with a broken CSS, I think you do not have to support it. Well of course, if you like it just do it ;) Hmmm.. I think we should only support standard HTML/XHTML/CSS. No need to add fixes for known-broken browsers I guess. (And no old cruft where avoidable) Oh btw, *great* progress on the design. Yess, it's getting somewhere. - The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you look for links. I'll take an example: I'd have expected those in a nice collapsed menu on top with annoying mouseOver expansion (I hate that because if you move your mouse across the page you have one expanded menu hiding whatever is below) Like this they are out of sight and on smaller screens not directly visible without scrolling. http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml I am in 1024x768 and I don't see the boxes if I don't scroll. I don't think you acn reduce every page so that you see them without scrolling. Unfortunately I dont see any good solution. The common solution is a menu on the left side, but then it gets tricky with expanding/collapsing and keeping the whole menu visible. Maybe it'll stay this way. I would put more than 2 news items on the front page then, even if it also hides the boxes a bit on 800x600 or 1024, because it doesnt give much info to have 2 items per news page ;) I guess that's part of it being a prototype and all that ;-) Some usability issues: The top right textlinks are too dark and quite small. They aren't easily readable and don't present themselves as clickable items (especially with the dotted line below them they look like random text) The manage / customize / optimize / interact boxes on the startpage don't give any useful information (all those links are available in the unreadable text above and in the nice boxes at the bottom. Also their format looks like GoogleAds to me, so I mentally filed them away as more ads. As they don't appear anywhere else on the website I'd just remove them. Another (minor) inconsistency is that on the startpage the date stamp on the left shifts the text to the right, but all other subpages have the text left-aligned. That is unexpected, I'd like all pages to behave consistently. This also includes the infinity logo that's only in one place (why have it at all then?) Apart from that I like the spartan look. Keep up the good work! Patrick -- Stand still, and let the rest of the universe move signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On 25-11-2005 12:14:53 +, kang wrote: Curtis Napier wrote: gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as possible. IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as announced by MS), how is that considered supported ? Is it even still distributed within MacOSX Tiger ? IE5:mac is a dead end, IMHO. It isn't shipped with Tiger any more, and Safari has taken it's place. This already was the case for Panther as far as I know (but Panther does ship IE I think). Since Jaguar and before are really ancient I think it's not unreasonable to let IE5:mac have a very low priority in your renderings issue fixing list. IE5:mac has always had it's own quirks, but again, it's unsupported and not maintained anymore. Camino, Safari and Firefox cover its place quite well on the Mac. Talking about Camino (which is a native Cocoa/Aqua skin for Firefox more or less), the site looks fine, only the recent changes in the font affect it negatively to me. The fonts are small in the tabs-bar and shortcut menus (Documentation, Resources and Community). The text now looks vertically misaligned to me in the tabs-bar and footer, in comparison how it was before the font size change. I could live with it. Here are some screenies of the font-sizes: http://dev.gentoo.org/~grobian/Afbeelding%204.png http://dev.gentoo.org/~grobian/Afbeelding%206.png -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X Project -- Interim Lead -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Patrick Lauer wrote: Some usability issues: The top right textlinks are too dark and quite small. They aren't easily readable and don't present themselves as clickable items (especially with the dotted line below them they look like random text) Hm, the don't present themselves as clickable is sort of applicable to many other links IHMO. Personally I'm more than used to it as a technical guy, I find them as link without even thinking. For non technical people, I know that they hardly know hyperlinks used to be underlined and try to move the mouse wherever they feel like to click. (especially my mum, but psst ;p) When I first seen them they were green and quite visible. I see that now they're purple on purple which is hard to read. I don't know the reason though. btw: especially the www.gentoo.org catches the eye and tells immediately that thoses are links. Well, that's how I see it. - The bottom boxes are uneven in size, it looks a bit strange. Also i still wonder about this whole concept, as its not the first place you look for links. I'll take an example: I'd have expected those in a nice collapsed menu on top with annoying mouseOver expansion (I hate that because if you move your mouse across the page you have one expanded menu hiding whatever is below) Like this they are out of sight and on smaller screens not directly visible without scrolling. The manage / customize / optimize / interact boxes on the startpage don't give any useful information (all those links are available in the unreadable text above and in the nice boxes at the bottom. Also their format looks like GoogleAds to me, so I mentally filed them away as more ads. As they don't appear anywhere else on the website I'd just remove them. This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;) The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. (and just a bit usefull marketing wise, but is that really so important) kang -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 12:14:53PM +, kang wrote: Curtis Napier wrote: gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as possible. IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as announced by MS), how is that considered supported ? Is it even still distributed within MacOSX Tiger ? Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do. pgpNK7kaZudKw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Harald van Dijk wrote: On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 12:14:53PM +, kang wrote: Curtis Napier wrote: gentoo.org and all domains owned by the Gentoo Foundation should render correctly in all browsers that are still in general use. IE5 on the mac is still a valid browser and will be supported as much as possible. IE5 for mac contains unfixed security issues which won't be fixed (as announced by MS), how is that considered supported ? Is it even still distributed within MacOSX Tiger ? Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do. You might want to try iCab or opera. Well, I'd suggest you to run linux on it though ;) Or simple mozilla: http://www.t3.rim.or.jp/~harunaga/mozilla-macos9/ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 03:56:14PM +, kang wrote: Harald van Dijk wrote: Even with its bugs, it's one of best browsers for MacOS 8.1, which I still use. But if you can suggest a better one, please do. You might want to try iCab or opera. Well, I'd suggest you to run linux on it though ;) Or simple mozilla: http://www.t3.rim.or.jp/~harunaga/mozilla-macos9/ Linux can work fine on it, and I'd use that with MOL if I didn't have to deal with a dead battery not remembering the nvram settings, making Linux unbootable every time I pull out the cables. :) iCab has the same CSS issues as IE5 plus more, and as far as I know, all Mozilla ports require MacOS 8.6 (or higher). An older Opera should work though, thanks. And assuming it does, no complaints here if the site won't display right in IE5. pgpm6a1f7eN6P.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On 2005-11-25 15:46, kang wrote: This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;) The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. (and just a bit usefull marketing wise, but is that really so important) You name it !!! The purple bar is useless, navigation should go to the top. Want an impression, see: http://public.efil.de/gentoo-www.png -- Ingo Bormuth, voicebox telefax: +49-12125-10226517 '(~o-o~)' public key 86326EC9, http://ibormuth.efil.de/contact ---ooO--(.)--Ooo--- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Ingo Bormuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-11-25 15:46, kang wrote: This whole thing give me some idea. Now, it changes the design a bit and probably no one will listen, but, what if thoses purple boxes where to be replaced by the bottom link stuff ;) The bottom links which are hard to see or notice (cause they're at the bottom obviously) and never scales with the page size, could replace thoses boxes which are nice design-wise but useless content-wise. (and just a bit usefull marketing wise, but is that really so important) You name it !!! The purple bar is useless, navigation should go to the top. Want an impression, see: http://public.efil.de/gentoo-www.png I second that. Scrap the (oversized) purple bar und make it plain text. Get the user navigation up front and not cluttered all over the page. Personally i'd like the navigation to go to the left, but if that's too complicated i certainly won't suggest putting it at the bottom. I'd never look for navigation items below content. Just my 0,02 cent. Cheers, Matti -- Good evening, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the HAL plant in Urbana, Illinois, on January 11th, nineteen hundred ninety-five. My supervisor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a song. If you would like, I could sing it for you. pgpCfgdyfafHb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:37AM +0100, Sven Vermeulen wrote: Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a strong, compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has voted on. I'd say the fact that the Fedora Project plans to have it as part of their official logo (as mentioned in this thread) is enough for us not have it on our web page. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpSdvDC8UMD5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. Aaron was gone for months and months and months so I was listening to the feedback from others and trying to please everyone. I think I forgot that I took on this project to implement Aaron's winning design and not to *redesign* it to make other people happy. Aaron is the designer, I am simply the schmuck who is putting it into the XSL. I took on this project thinking that Aaron and I would work together as a team but when Real Life called Aaron away for all that time I did the best I could. Now that his real life obligations are giving him more time, Aaron is back. He and I will work together to implement this as closely as possible to his reference desogn. So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to Aarons's reference. It's a Holiday in my country and I'm going out of town so what you see on the test site won't be updated anymore until I get back. Check out what I did change in the meantime. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
2005-11-25, Curtis Napier sanoi, jotta: I honestly thought that the changes I made were better from an accessibility standpoint. I guess I was wrong. Not really. So on that note, I've gone over the design and gotten it closer to Aarons's reference. [...] Check out what I did change in the meantime. Uh-oh. The usability regression from what the site was yesterday is unbelievable. Almost all of the texts are too small to read again, and the color combinations are also unreadable again. I hope that you and Aaron are still going to take into account at least all the usability related requests from the feedback you asked, because I'd be pretty annoyed to see yet another web site redesign that manages to make original website even more unusable than it was. -- Flammie, Gentoo Linux Documentation's Finnish head translator. http://dev.gentoo.org/~flammie pgpezKzV4Bo8M.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wednesday 23 November 2005 07:40, Curtis Napier wrote: Aarons design uses a smaller default font, that is not acceptable from an accessibility POV. The main font is at 1em and all cursory fonts multipliers of 1em. The main font will remain at 1em which is the standard for the accessibility guidelines. If you don't like the standard font size every single graphical browser offers a font zoom capability, use it. First of all, this new design looks already a lot better. Then, I can see your point about the font sizes. However, if you want to aid people with bad eyesight, wouldn't it be a better solution to follow the browser's default size. That way the page shows the prefered user size regardless of being zoomed or not. Paul ps. I also found two graphical glitches: - There is a misterious white bar just below the overview bar (see ws1.png) - The corners of the jump pads do not have the proper background color (see ws2.png) pps. Maybe have the design by Aaron Shi actually point to his homepage -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net ws1.png Description: PNG image ws2.png Description: PNG image pgpNnHIPv8ReA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Wednesday 23 November 2005 07:40, Curtis Napier wrote: ps. I also found two graphical glitches: - There is a misterious white bar just below the overview bar (see ws1.png) - The corners of the jump pads do not have the proper background color (see ws2.png) Fixed. In CVS If anyone with experience in Internet Explorer can figure out what is causing it to push the page off the left side of the window I would greatly appreciate it. I have never seen an error like that before and can't figure it out. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:40:45AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote: If there are no more outstanding issues reported I will submit this current layout for approval. there's still a ton of wasted space in the purple bar ... if that was tightened up, more news could be displayed ... having the last two or three news items on the front page is pretty helpful imo and would help to offset all the space created by the large ad sidebar The artwork is all part of the winning design. Any issues with the infinity symbol should have been addressed a year ago. well it clearly wasnt, might as well cover it now before the site goes live ... as i pointed out, considering its location, this means that our new logo basically becomes gentoo with an infinity sign I actually implemented a search that used google much like the example that was posted here. The search was discussed at length with the project lead and it was decided that using a third party search engine such as google was unacceptable. why ? we all know google is great and the implementation would be both cheap and quite usable Gentoo is a not-for-profit but, unfortunetly, it is the wrong kind of non-profit so Google will not sponsor us. i dont see why a simple form redirect to google would require any sort of sponsorship ... the thread fork to hardware at google was weird anyways *all extraneous information and decorative news headers were removed from the front page to help readability and to bring focus to the information. This includes the cow image and text. Overwhelming amounts of information on the front page should no longer be a problem. This also brings the jumppads closer to the top so new users will be better able to spot them. seems like everything was cut ... now the frontpage is just a simple site index page ? i liked the simple cow/about blurb myself -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 01:40:45AM -0500, Curtis Napier wrote: If there are no more outstanding issues reported I will submit this current layout for approval. the links in the footbars still dont have 'on mouse over' behavior like all the other links -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, 2005-11-23 at 01:40 -0500, Curtis Napier wrote:
big_snip
Accessibilty guidelines say that all text links should be underlined. I
made an exception for the grey menu bar for aesthetic purposes but will
not make an exception for any other links.
/big_snip
Given the above shouldn't the text links below each advertisement
graphic also be underlined. The implication of the current text is that
they are not links at all when they are.
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 04:57:11PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinity was just a minor detail and not part of the design itself. Yes, I remember that - I just can't locate it in the archives. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpqV1gNUh5H2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:49:47 +0100 Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 04:57:11PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | I did bring this up a year ago. I brought it up before the close of | voting too. Back then, it was claimed that the infinity was just a | minor detail and not part of the design itself. | | Yes, I remember that - I just can't locate it in the archives. It was on -core. But there was a nice forums post too. Sven Vermeulen writes at http://tinyurl.com/amyy3 : Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the development though... And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too late to change things? Riiight. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Look! Shiny things!) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:05:53PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the development though... And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too late to change things? Riiight. I said that in that stage of the redesign development the logo discussion shouldn't be held as it is part of the design the infinity sign will be kept but that we leave it open for discussion if enough shoulders are put under it (huge discussion). The primary concern at that stage of the development was to continue to develop the design/XSL so that we have something workable when we offer the design to the public... which is now. Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a strong, compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has voted on. Wkr, Sven Vermeulen -- Gentoo Foundation Trustee | http://foundation.gentoo.org Gentoo Documentation Project Lead | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp Gentoo Council Member The Gentoo Projecthttp://www.gentoo.org pgphvGhgBwF9d.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Update of http://wwwredesign.gentoo.org
On Thu, Nov 24, 2005 at 06:23:37AM +0100, Sven Vermeulen wrote: On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 06:05:53PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Afaicr, the infinity sign will be kept, but I know a huge discussion will be held on this. It's not important in this stage of the development though... And now we're told that it *was* important at that stage and it's too late to change things? Riiight. Like I said before, I rather like the infinity sign. The trustees have had a discussion on this part too. Their decision was that we need a strong, compelling case for not using it since it is something the community has voted on. by 'voted on' you mean the vote that happened on the forums ? i thought that vote was for the different website designs, they didnt really cover aspects of different designs -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
