Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 07/14/2013 07:47 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: On 14/07/2013 18:42, Peter Stuge wrote: I bet you a tasty beverage that it will grow over time! :) I don't believe in the future until I can see it. I'm pretty sure that's the same thing that they said about app-antivirus at some point (can somebody _kill_ that category please?!) Or maybe populate it by adding few more. I guess there isn't much interest or clamav is really that good. lu
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 17:26 Sun 14 Jul , Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. I wrote a script years ago to make recommendations for this. I just updated it to do things a little smarter. It bases its suggestions on percentiles of existing category sizes. http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/scripts/category-size $ category-size Statistics for /usr/portage: Median packages per category = 51 Suggested category size (25%–75%): 18 to 91 Split categories with more than 91 packages, and do not create categories with fewer than 18 packages. -- Thanks, Donnie Donnie Berkholz Council Member / Sr. Developer, Gentoo Linux http://dberkholz.com Analyst, RedMonk http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/ pgpOocMKQ8ulN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves..
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 07/14/2013 06:26 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. 1 app-antivirus/ 3 net-zope/ 5 x11-base/ 7 gpe-utils/ 8 app-officeext/ 11 net-voip/ 12 games-kids/ 12 gnustep-libs/ 13 mail-mta/ 13 dev-ada/
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
And? Two wrongs don't make a right. And I've said the same for any other proposed category like that.
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
Diego, hasufell wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. 1 app-antivirus/ 3 net-zope/ 5 x11-base/ 7 gpe-utils/ 8 app-officeext/ 11net-voip/ 12games-kids/ 12gnustep-libs/ 13mail-mta/ 13dev-ada/ Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: And? Two wrongs don't make a right. What do you mean by And? - it doesn't make much sense as a reply. :\ I think you need to become much more specific in order to participate in the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right. implies that you can not imagine any exception to the (whose?) rule for how many packages are the minimum allowed in a category. It suggests a lack of fingerspitzgefühl needed to detect when a particular rule is actually wrong, which I think is the case here, if x11-base and the other above categories are all wrong. Sometimes it is the rule that needs to change, you know? //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: And? Two wrongs don't make a right. And I've said the same for any other proposed category like that. I agree that precedence alone isn't really a good basis for this. I don't really have concerns with the initial category size so much as the general lack of a definition for this category. Just what do wumpus (talk about a blast from the past), a game in the spirit of nethack, and a Leisure Suit Larry spinoff have in common? I imagine most games have some kind of adventure sense to them. If somebody can outline some kind of organizational strategy here it would probably make sense. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: Diego, hasufell wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. 1 app-antivirus/ 3 net-zope/ 5 x11-base/ 7 gpe-utils/ 8 app-officeext/ 11net-voip/ 12games-kids/ 12gnustep-libs/ 13mail-mta/ 13dev-ada/ Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: And? Two wrongs don't make a right. What do you mean by And? - it doesn't make much sense as a reply. :\ He means that none of those provide justification. Are you being intentionally obtuse?
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013, hasufell wrote: On 07/14/2013 06:26 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. 1 app-antivirus/ 3 net-zope/ 5 x11-base/ 7 gpe-utils/ 8 app-officeext/ 11net-voip/ 12games-kids/ 12gnustep-libs/ 13mail-mta/ 13dev-ada/ I tend to agree with Diego. If you want to split games-misc, then moving the 42 fortune-mod* packages into their own category would make more sense. That would leave 31 packages in games-misc which really isn't overcrowded. Ulrich
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
Rich Freeman wrote: Just what do wumpus (talk about a blast from the past), a game in the spirit of nethack, and a Leisure Suit Larry spinoff have in common? I'd say it's that they focus on exploration. I imagine most games have some kind of adventure sense to them. Puzzles and 52-card games maybe not so much, but I think a good metric is how much the gameplay focuses on the adventure/exploration compared to other elements. But - deciding whether a game is an adventure game or not is fortunately nothing that Gentoo needs to concern itself with, this is already done by the publisher, and I think that everybody interested in a game (dunno if Diego is one?) already knows what category they consider it to belong to. Gentoo should where possible not introduce elements of surprise, but simply model categories according to how the world *already* organizes them. I don't think anyone can dispute that there exists a genre called adventure games.. (Much like there exists a software genre called X11 window managers..) //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 14/07/2013 18:26, Peter Stuge wrote: I don't think anyone can dispute that there exists a genre called adventure games.. How comes scummvm is not in the list then? Just saying. Seriously, a category for 10 games is *not* a good idea. There is at least one (scummvm) who could fit there. Not sure if we have rainslick still in tree but it would fit as well. Maybe consider adding a few more, and if we reach the 20 games I wouldn't object. But 10 are way too few, and a roguelike would *not* fit in the genre to begin with. -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
Matt Turner wrote: And? Two wrongs don't make a right. What do you mean by And? - it doesn't make much sense as a reply. :\ He means that none of those provide justification. It seemed that the main argument was that there are too few packages and then then I do think that other categories with few(er!) packages provide lots of justification. But in any case I too feel that number of packages is secondary to what makes sense AKA a correct model.. Are you being intentionally obtuse? Why would I? I'm making an effort to understand what was intended to be communicated, because what was actually communicated makes no sense to me. :\ //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò flamee...@flameeyes.eu wrote: On 14/07/2013 18:26, Peter Stuge wrote: I don't think anyone can dispute that there exists a genre called adventure games.. How comes scummvm is not in the list then? Just saying. Seriously, a category for 10 games is *not* a good idea. There is at least one (scummvm) who could fit there. Not sure if we have rainslick still in tree but it would fit as well. Makes sense. If somebody wants to clean up the games categories I think a better place to start is to just list all the games and assign every one to a logical category, rather than just doing it piecemeal. Obviously we could give some weight to the status quo, but I think that dramatic change that at least makes sense would get us to a better place than just picking a dozen packages here and there and moving them. I have nothing against an adventure category - I guess I'm just more concerned with how we're populating it. One of the advantages of planning ahead is that for all we know just having one general adventure category might put too many packages in it. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
As a user, I have always wondered what was the rational for the current game categories and thought it should splitted in a more standard way. What immediately comes to mind as a decent way to split games is the wikipedia page for video game genres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_genres That would make 7 categories and the game description could include the subcategory if necessary. If a subcategory grows too large, it could justify making it its own category. Then, the maintainers only needs to follow the description of each genre to place the game in the appropriate category. But this is just a suggestion, the games-adventure category makes sense by itself IMHO. Damien On 07/14/13 13:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Sun, 14 Jul 2013, hasufell wrote: On 07/14/2013 06:26 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I would object... 10 games are wa too few for a new category and especially pkg moves.. 1app-antivirus/ 3net-zope/ 5x11-base/ 7gpe-utils/ 8app-officeext/ 11 net-voip/ 12 games-kids/ 12 gnustep-libs/ 13 mail-mta/ 13 dev-ada/ I tend to agree with Diego. If you want to split games-misc, then moving the 42 fortune-mod* packages into their own category would make more sense. That would leave 31 packages in games-misc which really isn't overcrowded. Ulrich
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Peter Stuge pe...@stuge.se wrote: Matt Turner wrote: And? Two wrongs don't make a right. What do you mean by And? - it doesn't make much sense as a reply. :\ He means that none of those provide justification. It seemed that the main argument was that there are too few packages and then then I do think that other categories with few(er!) packages provide lots of justification. I think it is a data point. However, decisions need to make sense on their own, not merely in the sense that they're similar to past decisions. I think continuity has some value, but not on its own. In any case, I consider a small number of packages in a category as a warning that something is probably wrong, not really an end-reason for rejecting a course of action. If the category is just immature and likely to grow then a small number of packages isn't a big deal. If the number is small because the category isn't well-defined or adds little value, then that is a reason to stop. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 07/14/2013 07:29 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: On 14/07/2013 18:26, Peter Stuge wrote: I don't think anyone can dispute that there exists a genre called adventure games.. How comes scummvm is not in the list then? Just saying. Because it's an engine. Scummvm games are already in the list I provided. Maybe consider adding a few more, and if we reach the 20 games I wouldn't object. I don't see the point in that, but I have no interest in bikeshedding and this thread is already drifting in that direction. But 10 are way too few, and a roguelike would *not* fit in the genre to begin with. Right, egoboo does not fit. On 07/14/2013 07:17 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: If somebody can outline some kind of organizational strategy here it would probably make sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game The description would be pretty similar to the first section of that link.
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I don't think anyone can dispute that there exists a genre called adventure games.. How comes scummvm is not in the list then? Just saying. Yep, it could also be included! OTOH the VM itself isn't technically a game. Seriously, a category for 10 games is *not* a good idea. I bet you a tasty beverage that it will grow over time! :) Maybe consider adding a few more, and if we reach the 20 games I wouldn't object. But 10 are way too few, So your number is 20. My number and the number of at least one other is lower. and a roguelike would *not* fit in the genre to begin with. Says you, while I and at least one other say that such a game does have strong focus on adventure/exploration. Wikipedia says Rogue is a dungeon crawling video game and, well, dungeon crawling seems like an adventure to me.. //Peter
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
On 14/07/2013 18:42, Peter Stuge wrote: I bet you a tasty beverage that it will grow over time! :) I don't believe in the future until I can see it. I'm pretty sure that's the same thing that they said about app-antivirus at some point (can somebody _kill_ that category please?!) So your number is 20. My number and the number of at least one other is lower. Yes, but unlike you, I'm a developer that needs to pick up the pieces. and a roguelike would *not* fit in the genre to begin with. Says you, while I and at least one other say that such a game does have strong focus on adventure/exploration. So either Matt is right or you should really refrain to posting without having a clue about what is being discussed. **We have a frigging games-roguelike category!** -- Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes flamee...@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
Re: [gentoo-dev] new category: games-adventure/
Diego Elio Pettenò wrote: I bet you a tasty beverage that it will grow over time! :) I don't believe in the future until I can see it. Huh - what does that mean? Obviously neither of us can say with certainty what will happen in the future and that's also not the point - making a friendly bet that nobody suffers from losing is an easy way for both sides to approach each other (helps if working in the same project) while at the same time stating their respective points. I'm pretty sure that's the same thing that they said about app-antivirus at some point Maybe, but there are a lot more games than there are antivirus apps. So your number is 20. My number and the number of at least one other is lower. Yes, but unlike you, I'm a developer that needs to pick up the pieces. I don't buy that. If someone else makes b0rk then they need to pick up the pieces themselves, not you do it for them. and a roguelike would *not* fit in the genre to begin with. Says you, while I and at least one other say that such a game does have strong focus on adventure/exploration. So either Matt is right or you should really refrain to posting without having a clue about what is being discussed. Have a look at this: http://www.netbooknews.com/wp-content/2011/07/the-pyramid-of-debate-550x417.jpg The central point in the above snippet is where roguelike games belong. It seems that Diego fell down the pyramid to an Ad Hominem. :\ It's super easy, I know - I've fallen often enough myself, but please do stick with talking about the point instead of talking about me. **We have a frigging games-roguelike category!** Several posters already pointed out that such a category probably isn't a very good model. I'm guessing that most if not all of the games in there would fit great in games-adventure instead. Thanks //Peter
