Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Wednesday 03 May 2006 12:13, Nich Steicke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail': modern, i would advise RoundCube - though its main draw back is its reliance on Java (its written at least in part in AJAX) - i personly AJAX = Asynchronous Javascript And XML Javascript != Java AJAX isn't a language and doesn't have anything to do with Java. Of course, roundcube might use Java AND AJAX or even use Java to generate the Javascript and/or XML parts of AJAX. But you don't write applications in AJAX (as you state), you write them using AJAX and using AJAX doesn't automatically add a dependency on Java (as you imply). hehehe - yes i do relise this - and what i beleve that i mee is that the down side is it reliance on Javascript... anways... -- Nicholas Steicke - http://www.narthollis.net Information Belongs to the World (Antitrust, 2001) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: The output of ASP.Net is trash. Most notably it doesn't gracefully degrade as the browser loses features, and generates unnecessary round-trips to the server. That was true for *Microsoft's* ASP.Net 1.1. The output HTML for the MS supplied controls was pretty ugly and non-standard. ASP.Net 2.0 is much improved. I also use Mono. Mono's .Net 1.1 has better output than MS's .Net 1.1. I agree that event-driven programming generally a better fit for GUIs, however it's not really a good fit for HTTP. I prefer a middle ground that removes the spew of markup (which is bad) but doesn't work against HTTP/HTML. In general, the goal is for php/java/vb/c#/your language here to not generate much markup, but to generate the content inside the markup. Middle ground is very good. I do like event driven programming and doing web apps with it seems natural to me. However, there are some things that do seem clunky and not to fit well with event oriented web apps. Code separation is easily done without writing event-driven code. You can define procedure libraries and/or Class (and object) hierarchies that don't deal with markup but use their results in the markup. True. However some models lend better to more separation. There is no one *true* method for every purpose. I have done the markup-with-code crap; The extremely complex abstractions Java crap for a simple web app; the make everything like a VB form MS C# web app crap; etc, etc. They all have had pros and cons. Writing an event-driven dynamic webpage is a little questionable to begin with since the underlying protocol is request-driven. If your applications are request driven, you'll find they are much easier to debug. Work *with* the tools you are given, not against them. On top of that, you have very little control over the other side of the protocol, most of the time. This is basically a requirement for layer another framework on a protocol and changing how it works. E.g. TCP [stream-oriented with delivery guarantees] over IP [packet-oriented with no delivery guarantees] has fairly specific behavior for both sides of the TCP connection. The protocol is not important and that is why it is OK to abstract it away. Event oriented web apps are not the answer for everything. They have pros and cons. All I know is I don't want to ever have to do stuff like this again: echo tabletrtd.$foo./td/tr/table\n; Response.write tabletrtd foo /td/tr/table vbCrLf : ) The SquirrelMail source code is trash. I haven't gone through all of it, or even much of it to really know. Though the compose.php page was a real mess. All I wanted to do was line the form buttons up nicely : ) Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Nick Rout wrote: you could take a look at roundcube.net Your the second person to mention roundcube. Has everyone heard of Roundcube but me? : ) It looks nice and I will go check it out. I am connecting to courier imap on the same box with some very large (read: owned by a lazy b'stard) mailboxes. The performance hit seems to be equally divided between courier and apache (which will be the php stuff no doubt). I may try dovecot which is held out by some as a better performer. I am running courier as well. I haven't tried dovecot. My largest folder has about 75 emails so I guess performance should be fine. I am the opposite and delete everything. It has come to bite me in the bum many times. I need to start saving emails. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
On Wed, 2006-05-03 at 00:37 -0400, JimD wrote: Michael Sullivan wrote: What other style is there besides procedural? A much better way IMO is to separate the presentation from the code like you can do with ASP.Net with Mono/MS. ASP.Net makes web app development *event* oriented. You write event handlers to handle certain events like a page loading or a button being clicked, just as you would do with a GUI app, and you don't have to have all the markup spewed about in the code. I will never go back to that old style of coding again. When I looked at the SquirrelMail php I got the willies from how ugly it looked. All I wanted to do was fix up the the ugly compose form. With an event-driven web app, the code would have been separated and it would have been real easy to make changes to. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol I know about event-driven programming (I wrote in VB for years before I achieved the enlightenment of Linux), but I didn't know that it was possible with PHP. I use event-driven techniques in Gambas and qt. I always thought squirrelmail code was like that for security purposes... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
JimD wrote: The SquirrelMail source code is trash. I haven't gone through all of it, or even much of it to really know. Though the compose.php page was a real mess. All I wanted to do was line the form buttons up nicely : ) Jim i personly use both SquirrelMail and roundcube for my webmail here, as i prefer the interface for RoundCube, but SquirrelMail has some of the features that i need (mainly mail filtering, and it not requiring any thing more at the user end than a html browser). i just took a quick glance at the compose page i have, and it seamed to be the the buttions were all nicely aligned anyway - if your are looking for a web mail interface which looks modern, i would advise RoundCube - though its main draw back is its reliance on Java (its written at least in part in AJAX) - i personly had no problems installing or configuring RoundCube, though i did a 'manual' install (that is i didn't use a ebuild) -- Nicholas Steicke - http://www.narthollis.net Information Belongs to the World (Antitrust, 2001) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Hi, On Wed, 03 May 2006 08:59:23 -0500 Michael Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know about event-driven programming (I wrote in VB for years before I achieved the enlightenment of Linux), but I didn't know that it was possible with PHP. I use event-driven techniques in Gambas and qt. I always thought squirrelmail code was like that for security purposes... I never heard of it as event driven programming, but I think what it should refer to is the MVC pattern. The events for web applications are of such a homogenuous nature that it has no worth to think of it as event driven. One needs a good understanding of MVC and the Doc/Controller model (and serialization of state data) for building fine complex webapps whose overall logic should keep being understandable. On the opposite, if you've just a plain simple page to display, MVC is definitely way too heavy. -hwh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
On 23:14 Tue 02 May , Jim wrote:
Can anyone recommend a webmail client? I am looking for something more
modern than
SquuirrelMal. I have been using SquuirrelMal, however I find it the
interface too old
and outdated.
I also looking into the code to see if I could freshen it up. From a quick
look, the
code is based on really outdated procedural-style PHP where the code and HMTL
is all
mushed together resulting in a mess like this in compose.php:
if ($compose_new_win == '1') {
echo 'table align=center bgcolor='.$color[0].' width=100%
border=0'.\n .
' trtd/td'.html_tag( 'td', '', 'right' ).
'input type=button name=Close onclick=return self.close()
value='.
_(Close).' //td/tr'.\n;
} else {
echo 'table align=center cellspacing=0 border=0' . \n;
}
if ($location_of_buttons == 'top') {
showComposeButtonRow();
Does anyone know of a good *modern* webmail app?
Jim
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
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gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Hi Jim,
I have not actually installed a web mail client, so I can't talk
from experience, but I was considering doing so a while back. Have You
had a look at horde or more specifically horde-imp? Looked good for me
at the time.
Good luck.
--
Cheers, Martin
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Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Nick Rout wrote: I am running courier as well. I haven't tried dovecot. My largest folder has about 75 emails so I guess performance should be fine. I am the opposite and delete everything. It has come to bite me in the bum many times. I need to start saving emails. I *just* (as in an hour or so ago) upgraded from courier-imap to dovecot. On large folders (1000+ messages) dovecot is *much* faster. I'd say around 5x faster when bringing up the folder in Squirrelmail. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Michael Sullivan wrote: I know about event-driven programming (I wrote in VB for years before I achieved the enlightenment of Linux), but I didn't know that it was possible with PHP. I use event-driven techniques in Gambas and qt. I always thought squirrelmail code was like that for security purposes... You can do event-driven programming in just about any language. Here is the good Wiki article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_programming At the bottom there are links to some good frameworks/libraries. PHP 5 has a nice one called PRADO. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Hans-Werner Hilse wrote: I never heard of it as event driven programming, but I think what it should refer to is the MVC pattern. The events for web applications are of such a homogenuous nature that it has no worth to think of it as event driven. One needs a good understanding of MVC and the Doc/Controller model (and serialization of state data) for building fine complex webapps whose overall logic should keep being understandable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event-driven_programming On the opposite, if you've just a plain simple page to display, MVC is definitely way too heavy. Very true. -hwh -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Manuel McLure wrote: I *just* (as in an hour or so ago) upgraded from courier-imap to dovecot. On large folders (1000+ messages) dovecot is *much* faster. I'd say around 5x faster when bringing up the folder in Squirrelmail. Any major changes in setup? Any quirks with your fav. client? Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Martin Richardson wrote: Hi Jim, I have not actually installed a web mail client, so I can't talk from experience, but I was considering doing so a while back. Have You had a look at horde or more specifically horde-imp? Looked good for me at the time. Good luck. No I have not. However I will check it out. Thanks for the tip, Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
JimD wrote: Manuel McLure wrote: I *just* (as in an hour or so ago) upgraded from courier-imap to dovecot. On large folders (1000+ messages) dovecot is *much* faster. I'd say around 5x faster when bringing up the folder in Squirrelmail. Any major changes in setup? Any quirks with your fav. client? A couple. First of all you won't find your subscribed folders unless you copy courierimapsubscribed to subscriptions, and edit this to remove INBOX. from the start of each folder name. Second, it won't allow plain-text authentication over a non-SSL connection unless you change a configuration setting. This doesn't apply to 127.0.0.1 so SquirrelMail still works fine, but if you have non-encrypted IMAP on your internal network, you either want to go encrypted or specifically allow plaintext logins. Otherwise it's working beautifully. -- Manuel A. McLure KE6TAW [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mclure.org ...for in Ulthar, according to an ancient and significant law, no man may kill a cat. -- H.P. Lovecraft -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Web mail
Can anyone recommend a webmail client? I am looking for something more modern
than
SquuirrelMal. I have been using SquuirrelMal, however I find it the interface
too old
and outdated.
I also looking into the code to see if I could freshen it up. From a quick
look, the
code is based on really outdated procedural-style PHP where the code and HMTL
is all
mushed together resulting in a mess like this in compose.php:
if ($compose_new_win == '1') {
echo 'table align=center bgcolor='.$color[0].' width=100%
border=0'.\n .
' trtd/td'.html_tag( 'td', '', 'right' ).
'input type=button name=Close onclick=return self.close()
value='.
_(Close).' //td/tr'.\n;
} else {
echo 'table align=center cellspacing=0 border=0' . \n;
}
if ($location_of_buttons == 'top') {
showComposeButtonRow();
Does anyone know of a good *modern* webmail app?
Jim
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
On Tue, 2006-05-02 at 23:14 -0400, Jim wrote:
Can anyone recommend a webmail client? I am looking for something more
modern than
SquuirrelMal. I have been using SquuirrelMal, however I find it the
interface too old
and outdated.
I also looking into the code to see if I could freshen it up. From a quick
look, the
code is based on really outdated procedural-style PHP where the code and HMTL
is all
mushed together resulting in a mess like this in compose.php:
What other style is there besides procedural?
if ($compose_new_win == '1') {
echo 'table align=center bgcolor='.$color[0].' width=100%
border=0'.\n .
' trtd/td'.html_tag( 'td', '', 'right' ).
'input type=button name=Close onclick=return self.close()
value='.
_(Close).' //td/tr'.\n;
} else {
echo 'table align=center cellspacing=0 border=0' . \n;
}
if ($location_of_buttons == 'top') {
showComposeButtonRow();
Does anyone know of a good *modern* webmail app?
Jim
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Michael Sullivan wrote: What other style is there besides procedural? A much better way IMO is to separate the presentation from the code like you can do with ASP.Net with Mono/MS. ASP.Net makes web app development *event* oriented. You write event handlers to handle certain events like a page loading or a button being clicked, just as you would do with a GUI app, and you don't have to have all the markup spewed about in the code. I will never go back to that old style of coding again. When I looked at the SquirrelMail php I got the willies from how ugly it looked. All I wanted to do was fix up the the ugly compose form. With an event-driven web app, the code would have been separated and it would have been real easy to make changes to. Jim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= There's no place like 127.0.0.1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
you could take a look at roundcube.net
There is an ebuild referred to in bugzilla (which actually points to an
svn server somewhere else).
I installed it a day or so ago. the postinstall instructions needed some
tweaking (mainly quoting on the mysql commands) but sorry i didn't make
notes.
The performance sucks a bit compared to squirrel - it is more cpu
intensive.
I am connecting to courier imap on the same box with some very large
(read: owned by a lazy b'stard) mailboxes. The performance hit seems to
be equally divided between courier and apache (which will be the php
stuff no doubt). I may try dovecot which is held out by some as a better
performer.
It is a nice looker, although lacking some stuff I thought. But its
still in beta, so no doubt more will come.
On Tue, 2 May 2006 23:14:35 -0400 (EDT)
Jim wrote:
Can anyone recommend a webmail client? I am looking for something more
modern than
SquuirrelMal. I have been using SquuirrelMal, however I find it the
interface too old
and outdated.
I also looking into the code to see if I could freshen it up. From a quick
look, the
code is based on really outdated procedural-style PHP where the code and HMTL
is all
mushed together resulting in a mess like this in compose.php:
if ($compose_new_win == '1') {
echo 'table align=center bgcolor='.$color[0].' width=100%
border=0'.\n .
' trtd/td'.html_tag( 'td', '', 'right' ).
'input type=button name=Close onclick=return self.close()
value='.
_(Close).' //td/tr'.\n;
} else {
echo 'table align=center cellspacing=0 border=0' . \n;
}
if ($location_of_buttons == 'top') {
showComposeButtonRow();
Does anyone know of a good *modern* webmail app?
Jim
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JimD
Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
--
Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
On Tuesday 02 May 2006 23:37, JimD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail': Michael Sullivan wrote: What other style is there besides procedural? A much better way IMO is to separate the presentation from the code like you can do with ASP.Net with Mono/MS. ASP.Net makes web app development *event* oriented. You write event handlers to handle certain events like a page loading or a button being clicked, just as you would do with a GUI app, and you don't have to have all the markup spewed about in the code. The output of ASP.Net is trash. Most notably it doesn't gracefully degrade as the browser loses features, and generates unnecessary round-trips to the server. I agree that event-driven programming generally a better fit for GUIs, however it's not really a good fit for HTTP. I prefer a middle ground that removes the spew of markup (which is bad) but doesn't work against HTTP/HTML. In general, the goal is for php/java/vb/c#/your language here to not generate much markup, but to generate the content inside the markup. With an event-driven web app, the code would have been separated and it would have been real easy to make changes to. Code separation is easily done without writing event-driven code. You can define procedure libraries and/or Class (and object) hierarchies that don't deal with markup but use their results in the markup. Code separation is easily broken even in event-driven code -- there's nothing preventing event driven code from outputting or manipulating markup in ugly ways. Writing an event-driven dynamic webpage is a little questionable to begin with since the underlying protocol is request-driven. If your applications are request driven, you'll find they are much easier to debug. Work *with* the tools you are given, not against them. On top of that, you have very little control over the other side of the protocol, most of the time. This is basically a requirement for layer another framework on a protocol and changing how it works. E.g. TCP [stream-oriented with delivery guarantees] over IP [packet-oriented with no delivery guarantees] has fairly specific behavior for both sides of the TCP connection. All this said (and bringing the message full-circle), if your example is indicative of the larger code base: The SquirrelMail source code is trash. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgpfXLNSWFwTv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Web mail
Michael Sullivan wrote:
On Tue, 2006-05-02 at 23:14 -0400, Jim wrote:
Can anyone recommend a webmail client? I am looking for something more modern
than
SquuirrelMal. I have been using SquuirrelMal, however I find it the interface
too old
and outdated.
I also looking into the code to see if I could freshen it up. From a quick
look, the
code is based on really outdated procedural-style PHP where the code and HMTL
is all
mushed together resulting in a mess like this in compose.php:
What other style is there besides procedural?
I had the same sort of thought about six months ago when I switched
jobs. I handle the infrastructure for a complicated web app now and it
is definitely not procedural. I tried to troubleshoot some PHP issues
since I had done some minor work like that at the last job for idiot web
devs.
ws01 site # more index.php
?PHP
_load_class('HomePage');
$ui = new HomePage();
$ui-display();
And that's it. Of course you can track class homepage to homepage.class
which loads mysql.class, forms.class, not to mention the Smarty
framework with templates and the CSS. My days of simple procedural
troubleshooting of PHP code intermingled with display code are
definitely over.
Moving on to the webmail bit, I like Roundcube as well. My personal
server is completely overbuilt so it seems as snappy as Squirrel. If
you're using PHP 4.4, I'd install pecl-apc which should speed things up
greatly. pecl-apc has *issues* with PHP 5.1.x especially if you're using
PHP in any sort of object oriented kind of way. I skipped the overly
complicated Gentoo ebuild/overlay and installed from source. Works fine
with Mysql 5.0 and PHP 5.1.2 if you're that bleeding edge.
Roundcube is low on features like shared address books and things you
might find in Horde, but has a nice interface. It's also likely to
change quite a bit since it's in early beta so it may not be the most
stable choice.
kashani
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