Re: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what to do?

2017-08-28 Thread Greg Rau 
Attenborough et al (link or website?) certainly must be referring to SRM. 
Otherwise, would the world be less insane, delusional and fascist if we turned 
off the 20 Gt/yr CDR that is naturally occurring? Another reason CDR and SRM 
deserve separate discussions (with all due respect for this "geoengineering" 
google group).Greg


  From: Bernard Mercer <bmer...@mercerenvironment.net>
 To: "andrew.lock...@gmail.com" <andrew.lock...@gmail.com>; durbrow 
<durb...@gmail.com>; geoengineering <geoengineering@googlegroups.com> 
 Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 11:45 AM
 Subject: RE: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what 
to do?
   
#yiv5781045918 #yiv5781045918 -- _filtered #yiv5781045918 
{font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5781045918 
{panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5781045918 
{font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv5781045918 
#yiv5781045918 p.yiv5781045918MsoNormal, #yiv5781045918 
li.yiv5781045918MsoNormal, #yiv5781045918 div.yiv5781045918MsoNormal 
{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv5781045918 a:link, 
#yiv5781045918 span.yiv5781045918MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5781045918 a:visited, #yiv5781045918 
span.yiv5781045918MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv5781045918 
p.yiv5781045918msonormal0, #yiv5781045918 li.yiv5781045918msonormal0, 
#yiv5781045918 div.yiv5781045918msonormal0 
{margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv5781045918 
span.yiv5781045918EmailStyle20 {color:windowtext;}#yiv5781045918 
.yiv5781045918MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv5781045918 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 
72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv5781045918 div.yiv5781045918WordSection1 {}#yiv5781045918 I 
think it is similar to the problems associated with climate scepticism. I 
remember when I first heard about “mirrors in space” as proposed (I think) by 
Paul Crutzen, in the early 2000s. I’ve worked in the biodiversity arena since 
the mid-1980s, and I was horrified. It seemed a license to continue spewing out 
CO2.    The problem is our collective yen to mythologize: that image of great 
big reflectors in space still probably underpins much of the hostility to 
geoengineering (apologies in advance to Oliver Morton as I am sure he goes into 
all of this in his book, which I have, but not yet read).    Now of course (and 
in large part by learning from the exchanges on this list) I know better – of 
course we need geoengineering, and in addition we now know (which I don’t think 
most of us knew in say, c.2006) that we need a massive amount of negative 
emissions. DAC was not on the table as a serious solution, back then, but it is 
now.    So that is what I think this community needs to concentrate on its 
media/celebrity outreach: the potential of geoengineering solutions to remove 
atmospheric CO2. That is a quite different narrative from the prevention of 
global warming by deflecting solar rays.    From: 
geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com]On 
Behalf Of Andrew Lockley
Sent: 28 August 2017 19:37
To: durbrow <durb...@gmail.com>; geoengineering 
<geoengineering@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what 
to do?    Centrally controlled CE certainly isn't the only approach. It can be 
democratic or decentralised. I'm working on a paper concerning decentralised 
governance     A    On 28 Aug 2017 19:29, "Eric Durbrow" <durb...@gmail.com> 
wrote: 
      Attenborough referred to climate engineering as “fascist" (he meant that 
a small group of people would control the climate) and Gore has called it 
“insane…delusional". Bill McKibben called it a "serious deadend”    Is it too 
late to reach out to environmental leaders and get them to change their minds 
for *research* in climate engineering? E.g. an open-letter editorial in the 
Times, etc.     Or do celebrity leaders actually have minimal impact among 
grassroots environmentalists and activists?       -- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
togeoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
togeoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.googl

RE: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what to do?

2017-08-28 Thread Bernard Mercer 
I think it is similar to the problems associated with climate scepticism. I 
remember when I first heard about “mirrors in space” as proposed (I think) by 
Paul Crutzen, in the early 2000s. I’ve worked in the biodiversity arena since 
the mid-1980s, and I was horrified. It seemed a license to continue spewing out 
CO2.

The problem is our collective yen to mythologize: that image of great big 
reflectors in space still probably underpins much of the hostility to 
geoengineering (apologies in advance to Oliver Morton as I am sure he goes into 
all of this in his book, which I have, but not yet read).

Now of course (and in large part by learning from the exchanges on this list) I 
know better – of course we need geoengineering, and in addition we now know 
(which I don’t think most of us knew in say, c.2006) that we need a massive 
amount of negative emissions. DAC was not on the table as a serious solution, 
back then, but it is now.

So that is what I think this community needs to concentrate on its 
media/celebrity outreach: the potential of geoengineering solutions to remove 
atmospheric CO2. That is a quite different narrative from the prevention of 
global warming by deflecting solar rays.

From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Andrew Lockley
Sent: 28 August 2017 19:37
To: durbrow <durb...@gmail.com>; geoengineering 
<geoengineering@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what 
to do?

Centrally controlled CE certainly isn't the only approach. It can be democratic 
or decentralised. I'm working on a paper concerning decentralised governance

A

On 28 Aug 2017 19:29, "Eric Durbrow" 
<durb...@gmail.com<mailto:durb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Attenborough referred to climate engineering as “fascist" (he meant that a 
small group of people would control the climate) and Gore has called it 
“insane…delusional". Bill McKibben called it a "serious deadend”

Is it too late to reach out to environmental leaders and get them to change 
their minds for *research* in climate engineering? E.g. an open-letter 
editorial in the Times, etc.

Or do celebrity leaders actually have minimal impact among grassroots 
environmentalists and activists?


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to 
geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To post to this group, send email to 
geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to 
geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To post to this group, send email to 
geoengineering@googlegroups.com<mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com>.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

__
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
__

__
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
__

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what to do?

2017-08-28 Thread Adam Dorr 
With respect to climate, the idea that mitigation alone is a full solution
to the carbon problem is what is "insane", "delusional", and a "serious
deadend". Our current trajectory unequivocally commits us to CDR
geoengineering at the very least, and the IPCC is (finally as of the latest
assessment) in agreement on this: 1.5 degrees is almost certainly
impossible without large-scale CDR, and 2 degrees is very likely impossible
without it. As for peak-shaving and preventing the worst effects of climate
change with SRM geoengineering, that remains an open debate. I am assuming
that Attenborough, Gore, and McKibben are thinking primarily of SRM when
they are casting aspersions on geoengineering. But lets see if they still
say it is an insane, delusional, and fascist idea when Florida, Beijing,
etc. start to disappear underwater in the 2040s...



On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Eric Durbrow  wrote:

>
>
> Attenborough referred to climate engineering as “fascist" (he meant that a
> small group of people would control the climate) and Gore has called it
> “insane…delusional". Bill McKibben called it a "serious deadend”
>
> Is it too late to reach out to environmental leaders and get them to
> change their minds for *research* in climate engineering? E.g. an
> open-letter editorial in the Times, etc.
>
> Or do celebrity leaders actually have minimal impact among grassroots
> environmentalists and activists?
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "geoengineering" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what to do?

2017-08-28 Thread Andrew Lockley 
Centrally controlled CE certainly isn't the only approach. It can be
democratic or decentralised. I'm working on a paper concerning
decentralised governance

A

On 28 Aug 2017 19:29, "Eric Durbrow"  wrote:

>
>
> Attenborough referred to climate engineering as “fascist" (he meant that a
> small group of people would control the climate) and Gore has called it
> “insane…delusional". Bill McKibben called it a "serious deadend”
>
> Is it too late to reach out to environmental leaders and get them to
> change their minds for *research* in climate engineering? E.g. an
> open-letter editorial in the Times, etc.
>
> Or do celebrity leaders actually have minimal impact among grassroots
> environmentalists and activists?
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "geoengineering" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[geo] Environmentalists that denounce climate eng research; what to do?

2017-08-28 Thread Eric Durbrow 
Attenborough referred to climate engineering as “fascist" (he meant that a
small group of people would control the climate) and Gore has called it
“insane…delusional". Bill McKibben called it a "serious deadend”

Is it too late to reach out to environmental leaders and get them to change
their minds for *research* in climate engineering? E.g. an open-letter
editorial in the Times, etc.

Or do celebrity leaders actually have minimal impact among grassroots
environmentalists and activists?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"geoengineering" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.