Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
I said when the new changes were being discussed that the use image file quality unless defaults are 'better' was a bad way to go. I think that use image file quality unless defaults are 'better' is not thee problem. Problem is inheriting image quality between different images in one GIMP session. I have a default quality of 85. Then I open DSLR image with quality 95. Save it with that quality. Then I open and save low quality cameraphone image. But I am not offered my default nor the original cameraphone quality (which would be both understandable) but the DSLR quality of 95. Huh? These images have nothing in common except they have been opened in the same editor session. Do not mix them up. Jakub Friedl ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
These are the best words I've heard on UI. A program cannot decide what is better for me because _I_have_not_told_it what _I_need_. This is a principle - it should be up to user, not a program. In a most common case of saving jpeg files I would like to be able to do via advanced mode: 1. See original file settings as numeric values. That includes quality, subsampling and DCT method . 2. See my current settings (saving and restoring is OK now in RC1). 3. Have some color flag showing which ones are better. This can be done based on the estimation provided in the tread before. And the better way is to show two progress bars one under another - original vs current settings. 3. Decide which one set of settings use for file save: original or adjustable current ones. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I said when the new changes were being discussed that the use image file quality unless defaults are 'better' was a bad way to go. Gimp should not decide what is better because it cannot know what is required so cannot make that choice. This sort of surprise behaviour is precisely the kind of thing I was warning against in making covert changes to user data. This sort of approach will always lead to unexpected results because it is inconsistant. Stop treating the user like a dumby and trying to make choices behind his back about what is best for his files. This would provide a more consistant and predictable behaviour. A lot of things are now done a lot better w.r.t jpeg but I think this aspect is still fundamentally wrong. Keeping the quality gleaned from the file would solve this problem and provide more predicatable behaviour. -- With respect Alexander Rabtchevich ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:57:44 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gimp should not decide what is better because it cannot know what is required so cannot make that choice. This sort of surprise behaviour is precisely the kind of thing I was warning against in making covert changes to user data. I think that you are trying to shoot the wrong target. The main problem that I described in my previous message is not the fact that GIMP tries to preserve the quality of the original image or decide what is better. The problem is that some changes that you make when saving one file are propagated to all other files that you save later. The recent updates to the JPEG plug-in make this problem more obvious, but it also affects all other file plug-ins. Before jumping to conclusions about where the problem comes from, please try the following exercise: - Load or create a GIF animation (2-3 layers should be enough). - Save it as A.gif and let's pretend that you don't like the speed at which that animation runs so you set the delay to 333ms and check the box Use delay entered above for all frames. - Close that image. - Open or create a new, totally unrelated GIF animation. - Save that image as B.gif. Although you probably wanted to keep its settings or at least save it with the default values, you see that Use delay entered above for all frames is now checked. The settings from an unrelated image that is now closed are used for saving your new image. If you do not want to destroy the timing of your animation, you have to pay attention and uncheck that box before you save the file. Does it make sense that two unrelated images influence each other? But things are even more confusing if you keep some images open. Try the following exercise, with PNG this time: - Load or create a new image. - Save it as A.png but set its compression level to 0 because you want to waste some disk space and disable all other options because you do not want to save the image comment, creation date, etc. - Keep A.png open and load or create another image. - Save the second image as B.png. Although you probably wanted to use your default settings (which can be customized with the buttons Load/Save defaults), you see that the same parameters as A.png are now used when saving this image. You do not like this, so you set the compression level back to 9 (you can also check or uncheck some of the other boxes) and save the image. - With both A.png and B.png still open, load or create a third image. - Save that image as C.png. Now you see that C.png inherited the settings from B.png, the last image that was saved. - Make some small changes to A.png and save it again using a new name such as D.png. By now, maybe you expect that saving D.png would use the same settings as C.png, the last image that was saved? But no, this time you see that D.png keeps the settigns from A.png because it was still open. - Now if you make some changes to B.png and give it a new name E.png, then that file will use the settings from B.png. But if you had closed and re-opened B.png, then you would see that E.png is saved with the parameters from D.png, not B.png. Are you confused yet? If you work on two files in parallel (A.png and B.png) and save them alternatively as your work progresses, then any new file that you open and save will inherit the settings from A.png or B.png, depending on which one was saved last. And if you are still convinced that all of this makes sense, try to play with some settings that are enabled or disabled depending on the contents of the original image. For example, if the original PNG image has transparency (alpha channel), then you will be able to check or uncheck the box Save color values from transparent pixels. This setting may be propagated to other PNG images that also have an alpha channel. But if you load a PNG image without alpha channel, then this option will not be available. After saving that last file, can you correctly guess if that box will be automatically checked or not when you load another PNG image with transparency and then try to save it? I consider the current situation to be broken for all file plug-ins. Instead of re-using the settings from whatever image was saved recently, each image should keep its own settings and should not be influenced by what you do with the other images. The save settings should come from the original image or from the user defaults if the image has never been saved yet. It should of course be possible for the user to customize these defaults (currently, this can only be done for JPEG and PNG, but the old bug #63610 is about extending this to other plug-ins). I hope that you are convinced that something is wrong with the behavior of the file plug-ins. Now, regarding the JPEG plug-in, I see two ways forward: 1) Do not re-use the values from previous (unrelated) invocations of the plug-in. This ensures that each file
[Gimp-developer] I would like to write a GAP user manual
Hi Everyone This is my first post here. My programming skills are still a little weak but I was hoping I could contribute by helping to write the Gimp GAP user manual. With a 1 1/2 year old child and a 1 1/2 year old business I don't have too much time. Things will go slow. I can however provide hosting space and indeed a dedicated website for the project. If the GAP developers/users can help to tutor me I can post my work online. I should also be able to do so in a Wiki format so others can correct my mistakes or clarify ambiguous statements. Please feedback as to whether or not this is a good idea, and if it is, any comments on the best way to achieve this. Thanks-Patrick ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:07:40 +0200, Raphaël Quinet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:57:44 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gimp should not decide what is better because it cannot know what is required so cannot make that choice. This sort of surprise behaviour is precisely the kind of thing I was warning against in making covert changes to user data. I think that you are trying to shoot the wrong target. The main problem that I described in my previous message is not the fact that GIMP tries to preserve the quality of the original image or decide what is better. The problem is that some changes that you make when saving one file are propagated to all other files that you save later. The recent updates to the JPEG plug-in make this problem more obvious, but it also affects all other file plug-ins. Before jumping to conclusions about where the problem comes from, please try the following exercise: - Load or create a GIF animation (2-3 layers should be enough). - Save it as A.gif and let's pretend that you don't like the speed at which that animation runs so you set the delay to 333ms and check the box Use delay entered above for all frames. - Close that image. - Open or create a new, totally unrelated GIF animation. - Save that image as B.gif. Although you probably wanted to keep its settings or at least save it with the default values, you see that Use delay entered above for all frames is now checked. The settings from an unrelated image that is now closed are used for saving your new image. If you do not want to destroy the timing of your animation, you have to pay attention and uncheck that box before you save the file. Does it make sense that two unrelated images influence each other? But things are even more confusing if you keep some images open. Try the following exercise, with PNG this time: - Load or create a new image. - Save it as A.png but set its compression level to 0 because you want to waste some disk space and disable all other options because you do not want to save the image comment, creation date, etc. - Keep A.png open and load or create another image. - Save the second image as B.png. Although you probably wanted to use your default settings (which can be customized with the buttons Load/Save defaults), you see that the same parameters as A.png are now used when saving this image. You do not like this, so you set the compression level back to 9 (you can also check or uncheck some of the other boxes) and save the image. - With both A.png and B.png still open, load or create a third image. - Save that image as C.png. Now you see that C.png inherited the settings from B.png, the last image that was saved. - Make some small changes to A.png and save it again using a new name such as D.png. By now, maybe you expect that saving D.png would use the same settings as C.png, the last image that was saved? But no, this time you see that D.png keeps the settigns from A.png because it was still open. - Now if you make some changes to B.png and give it a new name E.png, then that file will use the settings from B.png. But if you had closed and re-opened B.png, then you would see that E.png is saved with the parameters from D.png, not B.png. Are you confused yet? If you work on two files in parallel (A.png and B.png) and save them alternatively as your work progresses, then any new file that you open and save will inherit the settings from A.png or B.png, depending on which one was saved last. And if you are still convinced that all of this makes sense, try to play with some settings that are enabled or disabled depending on the contents of the original image. For example, if the original PNG image has transparency (alpha channel), then you will be able to check or uncheck the box Save color values from transparent pixels. This setting may be propagated to other PNG images that also have an alpha channel. But if you load a PNG image without alpha channel, then this option will not be available. After saving that last file, can you correctly guess if that box will be automatically checked or not when you load another PNG image with transparency and then try to save it? I consider the current situation to be broken for all file plug-ins. Instead of re-using the settings from whatever image was saved recently, each image should keep its own settings and should not be influenced by what you do with the other images. The save settings should come from the original image or from the user defaults if the image has never been saved yet. It should of course be possible for the user to customize these defaults (currently, this can only be done for JPEG and PNG, but the old bug #63610 is about extending this to other plug-ins). I hope that you are convinced that something is wrong with the behavior of the file plug-ins. Now, regarding the
Re: [Gimp-developer] I would like to write a GAP user manual
On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 05:46:44AM -0400, Patrick wrote: Hi Everyone This is my first post here. My programming skills are still a little weak but I was hoping I could contribute by helping to write the Gimp GAP user manual. With a 1 1/2 year old child and a 1 1/2 year old business I don't have too much time. Things will go slow. I can however provide hosting space and indeed a dedicated website for the project. If the GAP developers/users can help to tutor me I can post my work online. I should also be able to do so in a Wiki format so others can correct my mistakes or clarify ambiguous statements. Please feedback as to whether or not this is a good idea, and if it is, any comments on the best way to achieve this. Please contact the gimp-manual team. Perhaps it could be a good idea to just add a section on the online manual (that could have the side effect to enable the much useful F1 key contest open help browser). bye -- Marco Ciampa ++ | Linux User #78271 | | FSFE fellow #364 | ++ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Where all developers are?
Last I mailed it was said that there are not that many GIMP developers. Where are all image processing application developers have gone? Is there some other open source image manipulation software which sucks all the developers? In recent years Siggraph conference proceedings have had more image processing papers. For example: They are now making giga size photos with panoramic techniques. They are using hundreds of tourist photos for making 3D walkthroughs through city. Google earth and competitors are making 3D models from photos. And much more. It looks like today's image processing software needs to be redefined because there are many new applications for photos. You may suggest some other application for specific task as an easy solution but please don't. Juhana -- http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/linux-graphics-dev for developers of open source graphics software ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 08:56:33AM +0200, Jakub Friedl wrote: I think that use image file quality unless defaults are 'better' is not thee problem. Problem is inheriting image quality between different images in one GIMP session. I have a default quality of 85. Then I open DSLR image with quality 95. Save it with that quality. Then I open and save low quality cameraphone image. But I am not offered my default nor the original cameraphone quality (which would be both understandable) but the DSLR quality of 95. Huh? These images have nothing in common except they have been opened in the same editor session. Do not mix them up. There are times I definitely *want* to save the settings from a previous save. A common task for me is to edit ten or so images to present at 300x225 pixel size on the web. Of course, I don't want to save exif or thumbnail, so the carrying-over of these choices (and I don't know if this is fixed in 2.4 or not) is appreciated. Not wanting to use *too* much memory on my server, I will usually tweak the jpeg quality factor down to something less than the default 85, and I like having this carry forward from image to image when I am doing this task. If one looks too degraded at the new setting, then I can tweak it upwards, or if one is too big, then I can try lessening the quality, but I certainly wouldn't like to have each new image return to the default, or to some value determined by the image itself. I want to be in control but not have to control too much, if you know what I mean. I want the software to remember what I am doing. Couldn't there be a button somewhere to forget previous settings or begin new task? Actually, that would be helpful in many other situations, such as the file-save directory (and this is probably a GTK issue, I suppose). Now, I have to select the directory *every time*, even though I obviously want to save all 10 images to the same directory. Sort of like fifty first dates Actually, the more I think about it, the idea of a begin task - end task pair of buttons makes sense to me. Perhaps there could be pre-defined task parameters which the user has set up for different ones. Such as defaults for the resize-image, crop image, save directory, etc, etc. Maybe something like this already exists and I don't know about it. Who knows scott swanson just a user. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 23:56:16 +0200, Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 08:56:33AM +0200, Jakub Friedl wrote: I think that use image file quality unless defaults are 'better' is not thee problem. Problem is inheriting image quality between different images in one GIMP session. I have a default quality of 85. Then I open DSLR image with quality 95. Save it with that quality. Then I open and save low quality cameraphone image. But I am not offered my default nor the original cameraphone quality (which would be both understandable) but the DSLR quality of 95. Huh? These images have nothing in common except they have been opened in the same editor session. Do not mix them up. There are times I definitely *want* to save the settings from a previous save. A common task for me is to edit ten or so images to present at 300x225 pixel size on the web. Of course, I don't want to save exif or thumbnail, so the carrying-over of these choices (and I don't know if this is fixed in 2.4 or not) is appreciated. Not wanting to use *too* much memory on my server, I will usually tweak the jpeg quality factor down to something less than the default 85, and I like having this carry forward from image to image when I am doing this task. If one looks too degraded at the new setting, then I can tweak it upwards, or if one is too big, then I can try lessening the quality, but I certainly wouldn't like to have each new image return to the default, or to some value determined by the image itself. I want to be in control but not have to control too much, if you know what I mean. I want the software to remember what I am doing. Couldn't there be a button somewhere to forget previous settings or begin new task? Actually, that would be helpful in many other situations, such as the file-save directory (and this is probably a GTK issue, I suppose). Now, I have to select the directory *every time*, even though I obviously want to save all 10 images to the same directory. Sort of like fifty first dates Actually, the more I think about it, the idea of a begin task - end task pair of buttons makes sense to me. Perhaps there could be pre-defined task parameters which the user has set up for different ones. Such as defaults for the resize-image, crop image, save directory, etc, etc. Maybe something like this already exists and I don't know about it. Who knows scott swanson just a user. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer I think what you describe could be put under Save as. It is not Save though. Probably misusing the defaults. ;) gg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Annoying behavior of shared settings for file save plug-ins
On Fri, Aug 31, 2007 at 12:19:23AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think what you describe could be put under Save as. It is not Save though. Probably misusing the defaults. You're right, of course. Doh. I always use save as. And it works fine for my purposes (other than the save-to directory which I mentioned), and I hope it does in 2.4. Sorry to have misunderstood. Scott Swanson -- (or ss - hey, you've given me ideas, except it looks like something from a notary seal or the nazi era - my middle initial is 'O' - that's probably not a good idea either.) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
