Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
I still do the majority of my work on Linux in terminal windows. It loooks like you're referring to the GNU/Linux operating system, rather than the Linux kernel; if so, would you please write "GNU/Linux"? The GNU Project needs to get credit for the developing the GNU system, since this helps us do more of everything we try to do (including the Gimp). So it is a GNU convention that we should call the system GNU/Linux, the combination of GNU and Linux. That gives us a share of the credit, while still giving Linus Torvalds a share as well. See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html for more explanation.
Re: Compile error
On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 10:50:19AM -0500, Mathieu Dubé <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was using gcc-2.8.1 I switched to 2.95 and I still have the same error when > it compiles CML_explorer.c > :gcc: Internal compiler error: program cc1 got fatal signal 6 This is a bug in the compiler and should be reported to [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, does this happen at the same file and line all the times (does it output some more messages or just the quoted line)? [it is safe to rpely in private] -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | |
Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
On Fri, 01 Dec 2000, Lourens Veen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Olivier Lecarme wrote:
> [snip]
> > Although the PC keyboard is by far the dominant keyboard in the world,
> > it is a design mistake to have put a large Backspace key in place of the
> > Delete key of all the preceding keyboards (note that computers and
> > keyboards existed before the advent of the PC).
>
> Okay, now if I understand all this correctly, keyboards (and computers)
> did not have a delete-to-the-right key or keycode. Indeed,
> www.asciitable.com shows ascii 8 as Backspace and ascii 127 as DEL. If
> DEL is interpreted as delete-to-the-left, then we have two codes that
> mean the same, and no code for delete-to-the-right, correct?
OK, I'll bite... (you may want to delete this message right now...)
A bit of history from my (young) point of view: the first computer
keyboards that I used were DEC keyboards (for VT2x0 terminals and
DECStations) and Sun keyboards (the ones attached to sun3 and sun4
machines, not the newer ones). They had the Delete key in the upper
right corner and it meant delete-backwards. The only common
applications that supported delete-forward were Emacs and some
command-line shells, using Ctrl-D. Then some PC keyboards appeared
(with Backspace in the top right corner, meaning delete-backwards
under DOS). Later, the new type of Sun keyboards appeared, also with
the Backspace key in the right corner (above the Return key).
Working in heterogeneous environments was sometimes confusing because
the applications were associating different meanings to Delete and
Backspace, depending on who programmed them and how they were used
(some applications behaved differently if they were used in a telnet
session, under X or under SunView). So I used a set of login scripts
that were calling stty and xmodmap to remap the keys in order to get a
consistent behaviour. First I was enforcing the traditional
conventions (Delete means delete-backwards). That was working fine
with Emacs and some other applications, but more and more graphical
applications started to rely on the PC style. So after a couple of
years I modified my login scripts to remap the old keyboards to the
new meanings. That led to some inconsistencies when Emacs was used in
windowed or non-windowed mode, but most of the other applications
worked better.
Today, all the old Sun and DEC machines that were still using the old
layout (maybe more correct, but not used by the rest of the world)
have been discarded. I have even removed the keyboard detection code
and calls to stty and xmodmap from my login scripts. I am typing this
message in Emacs on a Sun workstation that has the PC-style keyboard.
Emacs and my shell are the only applications that are still using the
Delete key as delete-backwards, and Ctrl-D for delete-forward. All
other applications are using the PC style and use Ctrl-D for other
actions ("add bookmark", anyone?).
I think that the world has changed and it is better to use Delete as
delete-to-the-right, because this is what most keyboards are designed
for, and this is what most users are expecting. Using the old
meaning, even if it is more "correct", will only confuse the users who
have never seen any other type of keyboard.
Now, for those who still have a keyboard that has the Delete key in
the top right corner of the keyboard, there are three solutions:
- use xmodmap so that the Delete key sends the Backspace code
(but this may break some applications that rely on the old style)
- modify GTK+ (not the Gimp) so that the remapping will only be done
for GTK+ applications (the legacy applications will still work).
- replace the old keyboard by a new keyboard that use the incorrect
but de facto standard meaning for Backspace and Delete.
In any case, I do not think that the problem is specific to the Gimp.
-Raphael
Compile error
Hi, I posted a question on a compile error I get when I compile gimp-1.0.4 I was using gcc-2.8.1 I switched to 2.95 and I still have the same error when it compiles CML_explorer.c :gcc: Internal compiler error: program cc1 got fatal signal 6 What can it be and how do I make it work? -- Mathieu Dubé[EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmeur-Analyste[EMAIL PROTECTED] Syspark Inc.Visit www.mamalinux.com
Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
Olivier Lecarme wrote: [snip] > Although the PC keyboard is by far the dominant keyboard in the world, > it is a design mistake to have put a large Backspace key in place of the > Delete key of all the preceding keyboards (note that computers and > keyboards existed before the advent of the PC). Okay, now if I understand all this correctly, keyboards (and computers) did not have a delete-to-the-right key or keycode. Indeed, www.asciitable.com shows ascii 8 as Backspace and ascii 127 as DEL. If DEL is interpreted as delete-to-the-left, then we have two codes that mean the same, and no code for delete-to-the-right, correct? > In order to correct this design mistake, programs like Emacs have > interpreted the Backspace keysym as a DEL for years, knowing that the > Backspace character can always be typed as a C-h, and that users are > accustomed to erase on right using a C-d. However, this has the > inconvenience that in the non-window case, the Backspace key sends a > C-h, which is interpreted as a call for help. Now where did that C-d come from? Again, according to www.asciitable.com C-d or ascii 4, is EOT or end of transmission, not any form of erase. And I bet interpreting C-h as help is not something standard either (since ascii 8 is Backspace, nothing to do with help). I don't see why Emacs would be a better "standard" to model program behaviour after than the "standard" PC way of doing things. > For programs designed after the PC has begun to be the dominant > computer, most implementors have taken as granted that a Backspace key > is meant to erase on left, and a Delete key is meant to erase on right. > This was the simplest solution for them, but it is fundamentally wrong. > I have the feeling to preach in the desert when I try to convince people > of that, but at least they should try to understand the problem, and > even try to find a solution which would work for everybody. Okay, so an error was made. The makers of the pc keyboard should have left the DEL key where it was, and added a delete-to-the-right button in the place where we have delete buttons now. It seems that that brings us to a deadlock. Implementing programs using the old definition would mean making Delete delete-to-the-left, and Backspace also delete-to-the-left (since making it delete-to-the-right weuld be rather unlogical). For people using old-style keyboards like Msr. Lecarme, that would solve all problems, and it would also be consistent historically. However, this leaves us without a key (or keysym) for delete-to-the-right, thereby making supporting the pc standard impossible, even tweaking the xmodmap wouldn't work. The only solution for good default behaviour I can come up with is a rather weird one. We'd have to interpret the Delete keysym as delete-to-the-left, and Backspace as delete-to-the-right. As I said before, this is highly illogical, but it's, as far as I can see, the only solution that would support both original keyboards (automatically, Delete works correctly and there is no Backspace key) and PC style keyboards (the keys would have to be swapped in the xmodmap). The problem with this is that changing the behaviour in gimp (or GTK, since I agree that this would be more of a GTK problem) would "break" it on every PC out there, so that all users would have to change their Xmodmap, thereby breaking other programs that depend on Backspace being delete-to-the-left and Delete being delete-to-the-right. Having written that, I think that there is one solution left. Make a config option in GTK that allows Delete being interpreted as delete-to-the-left. I have no experience whatsoever with GTK hacking but I don't think it should be that hard to implement. People who prefer PC style behaviour would leave the switch to off, while Msr. Lecarme would turn it on and make his Delete key work appropriately according to his standard. And Simon: All true, so it conforms to the PC standard. As far as I understand now (and I think I understand the problem) the Delete keysym should actually delete to the left (ie behave like Backspace) Lourens Veen
Re: [gimp-devel] Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
Olivier Lecarme ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > For programs designed after the PC has begun to be the dominant > computer, most implementors have taken as granted that a Backspace key > is meant to erase on left, and a Delete key is meant to erase on right. > This was the simplest solution for them, but it is fundamentally wrong. > I have the feeling to preach in the desert when I try to convince people > of that, but at least they should try to understand the problem, and > even try to find a solution which would work for everybody. Ok, Ill give it a try. Please specify, where in Gimp you notice the wrong behaviour. I cannot check this, since every Keyboard I have access to is a PC-Style Keyboard, where the X-Server maps the Key above the Return Key to the "BackSpace" Keysym and the key to the right of the return key to the "Delete" Keysym (as reported by xev, this is a SuSE-Linux right now) In an XTerm The "BackSpace"-Keysym deletes the character to the left of the cursor and moves the cursor one position to the left. The "Delete"-Keysym deletes the character under the cursor and does not change the cursor position. In both cases the text to the right of the cursor is moved one position to the left. In a randomly chosen Text-Entry field in the Gimp the behaviour is the same (but the cursor is a vertical line between two chars). So what exactly is the Problem? Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/
Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
SN> GIMP does not do anything about key mappings and it will never do. SN> Configure your X-Server correctly and you're done. I would like to make it clear that I do know how to use xmodmap or other X tools. This is NOT a problem of configuring my X server: the Delete key on my keyboard sends a Delete keysym, and I have no reason to change it in order to send a Backspace, especially because this would break most other tools. Although the PC keyboard is by far the dominant keyboard in the world, it is a design mistake to have put a large Backspace key in place of the Delete key of all the preceding keyboards (note that computers and keyboards existed before the advent of the PC). In order to correct this design mistake, programs like Emacs have interpreted the Backspace keysym as a DEL for years, knowing that the Backspace character can always be typed as a C-h, and that users are accustomed to erase on right using a C-d. However, this has the inconvenience that in the non-window case, the Backspace key sends a C-h, which is interpreted as a call for help. For programs designed after the PC has begun to be the dominant computer, most implementors have taken as granted that a Backspace key is meant to erase on left, and a Delete key is meant to erase on right. This was the simplest solution for them, but it is fundamentally wrong. I have the feeling to preach in the desert when I try to convince people of that, but at least they should try to understand the problem, and even try to find a solution which would work for everybody. Olivier Lecarme
Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
Olivier Lecarme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Now you only need to get them Gimp developers to make it so :). (I'm not > a real full-time developer, I'm just on the list because I fixed a bug > not so long ago) GIMP does not do anything about key mappings and it will never do. Configure your X-Server correctly and you're done. Salut, Sven
Re: [gimp-devel] Re: use of the Delete key on Dec keyboard or similar
Richard Stallman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Gimp developers, I asked Olivier to report this because it is a > serious (though superficial) problem. Since the Gimp only runs under > a window system, it should be able to handle both Backspace and Delete > in the same way (as delete-backwards), since both of them can be > distinguished from the ASCII characters C-h and DEL. One Question: Where in Gimp is the handling of the Backspace/Delete Keys wrong? Probably in the GTK+-Widgets. So isn't this a general GTK+-Problem and should be discussed there? Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/
Perl Server question
I had sent the following mail to gimp user mailing list HI!!! I have been using perl for scripting and gimp 1.1.04, with no problems. Recently I upgraded Gimp to ver 1.1.29 and all my perl-gimp programs went for a toss,I am lost as no errors are thrown at me.(Starting gimp or running perl script) I suspect, perl server which comes along with gimp is the problem because in gimp 1.1.4, there is a option "perl server" in the drop down menu of "xtns" (on gimp main tool bar) but the same is absent in gimp 1.1.29. I would like to know if this (perl server) option should still showup in the dropdown menu of gimp 1.1.29? if yes what should I do. Thanks for patience Chetan
