Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

>
> In workflow, it makes sense to focus the dialog on the next likely action,
>> so if the user is filling out a form, focus would naturally be on the next
>> blank field that needs to be filled in.
>>
>  Are you arguing that having a global key to accept+dismiss the current
> dialog has no value? Even if you have focus-chasing logic, that does not
> preclude the accept+dismiss binding.
>


No, I'm arguing we shouldn't need another global hotkey just to get rid of
the current workflow bottleneck. If we implement my proposed solution
(which is the way people are used to accepting+dismissing dialogs in nearly
all popular graphics editors), the need for a global accept-dismiss hotkey
should vanish (of we do it right).

-C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Christopher Curtis]

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 2:29 AM, C R  wrote:

> In workflow, it makes sense to focus the dialog on the next likely action,
> so if the user is filling out a form, focus would naturally be on the next
> blank field that needs to be filled in.
>
 Are you arguing that having a global key to accept+dismiss the current
dialog has no value? Even if you have focus-chasing logic, that does not
preclude the accept+dismiss binding.

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Liam R. E. Quin]

On Thu, 2016-05-19 at 19:03 +0100, C R wrote:
> And yet hitting Enter/Return key to commit/save is standard here too,
> which
> is why there's a popup warning on overwrite in cases of overwriting a
> file.

Yes. (sorry for not being clear)

Whether enter commits the action in those cases depends on the focus
and autocomplete status, unfortunately.

I'd favour something like shift-enter doing the default action - still
one hand and not easily done accidentally.

I am not sure why Enter doesn't move from one text field to the next in
e.g. the Rotate dialogue - tab is needed instead. The Sun and AT UI
research led to the idea of pressing enter focussing each entry in turn
until you got to the OK button, and then applying it, but they didn't
study advanced image editors.

Liam




-- 
Liam R. E. Quin 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

Please ignore this bit, it's really beside the point, and is just me
thinking out loud. >

> It makes little sense to then have to change your hand position to apply
> the change with another hotkey, since we have already decided to focus it
> instead of the first item in the dialog, especially when the default when
> you press enter again is to do absolutely nothing. Also two shift keys are
> not always present, and tab works fine to move focus, so there's not much
> point in having Enter/Return focus the next box, instead of applying the
> change, which is intuitive. After all, enter commits the value, so it makes
> sense enter again will commit the dialog.
>

Thanks. :)



> On 20 May 2016 1:49 am, "Liam R. E. Quin"  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2016-05-19 at 19:03 +0100, C R wrote:
>> > And yet hitting Enter/Return key to commit/save is standard here too,
>> > which
>> > is why there's a popup warning on overwrite in cases of overwriting a
>> > file.
>>
>> Yes. (sorry for not being clear)
>>
>> Whether enter commits the action in those cases depends on the focus
>> and autocomplete status, unfortunately.
>>
>> I'd favour something like shift-enter doing the default action - still
>> one hand and not easily done accidentally.
>>
>> I am not sure why Enter doesn't move from one text field to the next in
>> e.g. the Rotate dialogue - tab is needed instead. The Sun and AT UI
>> research led to the idea of pressing enter focussing each entry in turn
>> until you got to the OK button, and then applying it, but they didn't
>> study advanced image editors.
>>
>> Liam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Liam R. E. Quin 
>>
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

In cases where you are unlikely to change every single option, it's still
much faster to handle it exactly like originally stated, and is why other
very popular graphics software applications use the convention. In
workflow, it makes sense to focus the dialog on the next likely action, so
if the user is filling out a form, focus would naturally be on the next
blank field that needs to be filled in.

The reason for auto focusing to the history combo box is for speed on
repeating the last used settings. It makes sense that the next focus should
be the OK button for these dialogs. In which case the Enter key would
function as requested, to press the OK button and commit changes.


The logic:

1. If you have chosen a history item from the combo box, you most-likely
want to apply the changes immediately following, so the OK button is
focused.

2. Hitting Enter/Return presses the button and completes the workflow for
this result.


If it's desired, I can do some workflow comparisons to show the difference
in various workflows with this "new" convention. :)

I believe most workflows will benefit from this change without the need to
add more non-standard hotkeys to GIMP.

-C




It makes little sense to then have to change your hand position to apply
the change with another hotkey, since we have already decided to focus it
instead of the first item in the dialog, especially when the default when
you press enter again is to do absolutely nothing. Also two shift keys are
not always present, and tab works fine to move focus, so there's not much
point in having Enter/Return focus the next box, instead of applying the
change, which is intuitive. After all, enter commits the value, so it makes
sense enter again will commit the dialog.
On 20 May 2016 1:49 am, "Liam R. E. Quin"  wrote:

> On Thu, 2016-05-19 at 19:03 +0100, C R wrote:
> > And yet hitting Enter/Return key to commit/save is standard here too,
> > which
> > is why there's a popup warning on overwrite in cases of overwriting a
> > file.
>
> Yes. (sorry for not being clear)
>
> Whether enter commits the action in those cases depends on the focus
> and autocomplete status, unfortunately.
>
> I'd favour something like shift-enter doing the default action - still
> one hand and not easily done accidentally.
>
> I am not sure why Enter doesn't move from one text field to the next in
> e.g. the Rotate dialogue - tab is needed instead. The Sun and AT UI
> research led to the idea of pressing enter focussing each entry in turn
> until you got to the OK button, and then applying it, but they didn't
> study advanced image editors.
>
> Liam
>
>
>
>
> --
> Liam R. E. Quin 
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

And yet hitting Enter/Return key to commit/save is standard here too, which
is why there's a popup warning on overwrite in cases of overwriting a file.

-C

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Liam R. E. Quin  wrote:

> On Thu, 2016-05-19 at 09:59 +0100, C R wrote:
> > > [...]
> > Can always be undone ctrl+z,
> This isn't true for Save As and Export dialogues, where enter will
> accept filename completion in the first instance. You can't undo
> overwriting a file on most file systems...
>
> Liam
>
>
> --
> Liam R. E. Quin 
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

>
> 1. open combo (space)
>> 2. confirm entry (enter)
>> 3. confirm dialog (enter)
>>
>
> Is that really a good approach? I'm concerned that it's too easy to
> accidentally commit some change by using the same key. Would it be better
> to leave Enter alone, and have a global Ctrl+Enter or Shift+Enter to
> accept+dismiss any dialog box?
>
>

It's a convention that is used in most of the graphics (and other) software
I've used over the years. It's the most intuitive way to handle it.
If it's a problem, or an accident, it will only happen once before the user
will see how it works.
Can always be undone ctrl+z, so it's not that big of a deal if a misfire
occurs now and again.

-C



> Chris
>
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Petteri Soininen]

From personal experience I'd say if using enter to commit changes 
hasn't messed a production

database of an entire factory, then this should be less critical.
Ctrl-Enter is good designwise though. It gives less chance of mistake 
keypress and is

easily accessible with just one hand.
(And the one who ever originally thought that Alt-O should be used as a 
shortcut to 'OK' should
get beaten with a mouse and keyboard combo repeatedly and mercilessly 
ridiculed ever after.)


On 19.5.2016 4:53, Christopher Curtis wrote:

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Michael Natterer  wrote:


On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 16:47 +0100, C R wrote:

1st enter opens the combo box, 2nd enter confirms the selection.
Third enter commits.



1. open combo (space)
2. confirm entry (enter)
3. confirm dialog (enter)


Is that really a good approach? I'm concerned that it's too easy to
accidentally commit some change by using the same key. Would it be better
to leave Enter alone, and have a global Ctrl+Enter or Shift+Enter to
accept+dismiss any dialog box?

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Christopher Curtis]

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Michael Natterer  wrote:

> On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 16:47 +0100, C R wrote:
> > 1st enter opens the combo box, 2nd enter confirms the selection.
> > Third enter commits.
>


> 1. open combo (space)
> 2. confirm entry (enter)
> 3. confirm dialog (enter)
>

Is that really a good approach? I'm concerned that it's too easy to
accidentally commit some change by using the same key. Would it be better
to leave Enter alone, and have a global Ctrl+Enter or Shift+Enter to
accept+dismiss any dialog box?

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Michael Natterer]

On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 16:47 +0100, C R wrote:
> Wait, what? Oh, I mean the third enter. Sorry, you're right, you have
> to
> hit enter to confirm the option.
> 
> 1st enter opens the combo box, 2nd enter confirms the selection.
> Third
> enter commits.
> 
> From any of value box (be it combo or otherwise), you should be able
> to hit
> Enter/Return to apply the changes of the dialog, after hitting enter
> to
> confirm the value.
> 
> Better?

Yes, much better :)

However: enter meaning something different before and after
combo selection is also bad.

How it *should* work:

1. open combo (space)
2. confirm entry (enter)
3. confirm dialog (enter)

3. is missing, see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=381254

Somebody needs to hack this up in GTK+...

Regards,
--Mitch

> On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Michael Natterer 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 07:31 +0100, C R wrote:
> > > 
> > > It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.
> > > 
> > > You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough,
> > > hitting
> > > the
> > > Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the
> > > last
> > > recorded preset. <-Love this.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to
> > > apply
> > > the
> > > changes.
> > > 
> > > Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK
> > > button,
> > > click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey
> > > that
> > > applies
> > > the changes I've made for that specific dialog.
> > > 
> > > Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the
> > > dialog,
> > > so if
> > > the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just
> > > commit
> > > the
> > > changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in
> > > GIMP.
> > You are essentially asking for:
> > 
> > 1st enter opens combo box
> > 
> > 2nd enter confirms entire dialog
> > 
> > Absoluteley not, this breaks the expected behavior of the combo
> > box and would lead to total confusion.
> > 
> > An enter in an open combo box (in all open combo boxes in GTK+)
> > simply confirms that combo box.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > --Mitch
> > 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

Wait, what? Oh, I mean the third enter. Sorry, you're right, you have to
hit enter to confirm the option.

1st enter opens the combo box, 2nd enter confirms the selection. Third
enter commits.

>From any of value box (be it combo or otherwise), you should be able to hit
Enter/Return to apply the changes of the dialog, after hitting enter to
confirm the value.

Better?
-C


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Michael Natterer  wrote:

> On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 07:31 +0100, C R wrote:
> > It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.
> >
> > You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough, hitting
> > the
> > Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the
> > last
> > recorded preset. <-Love this.
> >
> >
> > What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to apply
> > the
> > changes.
> >
> > Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK
> > button,
> > click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey that
> > applies
> > the changes I've made for that specific dialog.
> >
> > Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the dialog,
> > so if
> > the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just commit
> > the
> > changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in GIMP.
>
> You are essentially asking for:
>
> 1st enter opens combo box
>
> 2nd enter confirms entire dialog
>
> Absoluteley not, this breaks the expected behavior of the combo
> box and would lead to total confusion.
>
> An enter in an open combo box (in all open combo boxes in GTK+)
> simply confirms that combo box.
>
> Regards,
> --Mitch
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Michael Natterer]

On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 07:31 +0100, C R wrote:
> It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.
> 
> You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough, hitting
> the
> Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the
> last
> recorded preset. <-Love this.
> 
> 
> What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to apply
> the
> changes.
> 
> Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK
> button,
> click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey that
> applies
> the changes I've made for that specific dialog.
> 
> Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the dialog,
> so if
> the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just commit
> the
> changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in GIMP.

You are essentially asking for:

1st enter opens combo box

2nd enter confirms entire dialog

Absoluteley not, this breaks the expected behavior of the combo
box and would lead to total confusion.

An enter in an open combo box (in all open combo boxes in GTK+)
simply confirms that combo box.

Regards,
--Mitch
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[C R]

> Which dialogs that have Presets don't use an OK button accessible using
> Alt-O ?
>
>

Not many, but there are clashes, for example Hue-Saturation Alt+O does not
work at all.
Aside from that, Alt+O is a two-handed hotkey combo, and is much more
difficult to use with a mouse in your other hand.
I'd rather not have to take my hand off the mouse every time I want to
apply the dialog I'm looking at.
It slows me down a lot, and it would be faster to just use the mouse and
click the button.

-C








> Kevin
>
> 
> From: gimp-developer-list  on
> behalf of C R 
> Sent: 18 May 2016 07:31
> To: gimp-developer
> Subject: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes
> made in popup dialogs?
>
> It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.
>
> You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough, hitting the
> Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the last
> recorded preset. <-Love this.
>
>
> What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to apply the
> changes.
>
> Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK button,
> click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey that applies
> the changes I've made for that specific dialog.
>
> Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the dialog, so if
> the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just commit the
> changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in GIMP.
>
>
> Thanks again for all your wonderful work on GIMP!
>
> -C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Kevin Payne]

Which dialogs that have Presets don't use an OK button accessible using Alt-O ?

Kevin 


From: gimp-developer-list  on behalf of 
C R 
Sent: 18 May 2016 07:31
To: gimp-developer
Subject: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made 
in popup dialogs?

It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.

You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough, hitting the
Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the last
recorded preset. <-Love this.


What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to apply the
changes.

Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK button,
click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey that applies
the changes I've made for that specific dialog.

Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the dialog, so if
the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just commit the
changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in GIMP.


Thanks again for all your wonderful work on GIMP!

-C
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Can hitting Enter/Return twice apply changes made in popup dialogs?

[Chris Moller]

+1

For me, that would be especially useful in things like the Image>Scale 
Image dialogue.


On 05/18/16 02:31, C R wrote:

It's always been a bit of a kink in my workflows.

You want to quickly apply the last Preset, and sure enough, hitting the
Enter/Return key after the dialog opens jumps to a preview of the last
recorded preset. <-Love this.


What I'd like to be able to do is hit Enter/Return key again to apply the
changes.

Instead, I either have to try to tab/shift+tab my way to the OK button,
click the canvas and hit Enter, or try to remember the hotkey that applies
the changes I've made for that specific dialog.

Hitting Enter/Return key twice does nothing currently in the dialog, so if
the return button is hit again, is it possible to have it just commit the
changes? This would dramatically help hotkey based workflow in GIMP.


Thanks again for all your wonderful work on GIMP!

-C
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