Re: [Gimp-developer] fun with Adobe forums

2003-08-28 Thread Alan Horkan 

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:

> >>>So, did you guys know that Disney considered using the GIMP and/or
> >>>Cinepaint, but instead paid some coders to make sure PS runs in
> >>>WINE?
> >>>
> >>>

> I am finding out that trying to defend free software brigns more flames
> and bad moderation than other subjects. :-)
> I will try to find my post and paste it at the end of this message.

> > 4) Although there are some tradeoffs CinePaint better fills the niche for
> > a movie studio, higher colour depth and support for file formats such as
> > OpenEXR are important.
>
> Dunno. The only cinepaint I had seen was called  "filmgimp"

Well now they call it CinePaint, which better distinguishes the niche it
is trying to fill.  I believe there is an important place for CinePaint,
and that its clear focus is admirable.  I can only hope that in future
some compatibility can be regained and become more like different parts of
the same family, if you'll forgive the comparision more like Adobe
Photoshop Elements is to Adobe Image Ready.

> > 5) Adobe Photoshop users, particularly proffesional artists love Adobe
> > Photoshop.  Price is not really an issue when the company is paying (up
> > to a point, companies will eventually draw the line (no pun intended))
> > GIMP/CinePaint needs to be more than just as good, it needs to
> > be significantly better for that kind of specialist user to make the
> > effort to change. >
> > The killer feature(s) in the GIMP is freedom, and so cheap it is free.
> > Proffessionals who depend on Adobe Photoshop are probably the last
> > people that will convert to the GIMP.  The value they place on Photoshop
> > is not just the box price, it is the years of time and effort invested
> > into learning it inside out and more.
>
> Actually, one of the many replies pointed to this: Disney, better, the
> departament that went Wine/photoshop, actually tried pushing GIMP or
> CinePaint, but got a big No from the artists. That means you are
> completely right, Alan.

I can only hope that the developers will consider copying Photoshop more
often unless there are particularly good reasons to do otherwise.

> My post on /. on this subject was: (I am Pope Raymond Lama there)

> Re:Disney supporting open-source? (Score:*, Insightful)
> by Pope Raymond Lama (57277)  on Tue Aug 05, '03 12:25 PM (#6616021)
> (http://www.geocities.com/gwidion23)
>
>
>   No. Disney non-supporting Open Source,
> as it has always been.

supporting Wine, is supporting open source.
it would of course be more forward looking to support the Gimp rather than
a back-compatibility layer, but I am pleasantly surprised if Disney
makes any contribution at all to open source or free software.

> Now, instead of using, and helping
> improving The GIMP, "linux people"
> will just run their pirated Photoshops
> and be happy, as oftenly such users
> do not know the difference between free
> and proprietary software.

I might have moderated that Funny, although it was more likely to be
considered harsh.  People take accusations of 'piracy' (unlicensed use) of
software personally, guilty conscience methinks.  I also really doubt that
someone would go to all the trouble of running Linux, and
Wine to pirate Photoshop on Linux instead of taking the easy option and
just using Windows.

Usually on slashdot people say it differently more silly like
"free software, what do you mean it is not free, I downloaded it off the
internet"

> In reply to:
>
> Disney supporting open-source? (Score:5, Funny)
> by Prince_Ali (614163)  on Tue Aug 05, '03 12:13 PM (#6615846)
> (Last Journal: Sun Oct 27, '02 05:19 PM)
>
>
>   I can feel the slashdotters' brains explode with conflict.
> --
>
> Money follows votes; it does not buy votes.
> Two legs better!

I have learned to expect little intelligent feedback from slashdot, there
are a few exceptions but they only prove the rule that most of Slashdot is
utter dross and not worth reading at below Score:4 or 5.

The GIMP user and developers lists is one of the few places where you are
most likely to get well thought out feedback on the GIMP.  Everywhere else
you will probably get flamed, although I expect there will be some really
positive feedback when Gimp 2.0 is released (much more than any criticism
over the number jump).

Later

Alan


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Re: [Gimp-developer] fun with Adobe forums

2003-08-27 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno 


Alan Horkan wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:


So, did you guys know that Disney considered using the GIMP and/or
Cinepaint, but instead paid some coders to make sure PS runs in
WINE?

Yup.


When this was on Slashdot I did mention at least in a PS at the end of one
of my mails.
/me thinks of searching the archive
but is the archive working again?
will the alternative link suggested be up to date
(last time I looked it was lagging by a few days)
Let it be. I actually remember a post on this list, and it should be 
this one.

...
but anyway I am logged in on a console, so I'll skip finding a link this
time.

I saw this over on slashdot. And when I commented there something
about preferring to see th GIMP, if not for anything else, for the
free-software question, I got some 15 replies flaming me all over.


1) You will probably get flamed no matter what you say on Slashdot,
although I am would be interested to read exactly what you wrote.
I am finding out that trying to defend free software brigns more flames 
and bad moderation than other subjects. :-)
I will try to find my post and paste it at the end of this message.


2) Gimp and CinePaint were incidental to the article, the big deal was
that Disney *EVIL* actually spent some money and helped improve WINE
*GOOD* (although some looonatics object to WINE on a twisted notion
that compatability with legacy applications is a bad idea).
Correct, that is what the article was about

3) They probably only evaluated GIMP 1.2, and even though GIMP 1.3 is a
lot better I dont think any of you will deny there is 'room for
improvement'
4) Although there are some tradeoffs CinePaint better fills the niche for
a movie studio, higher colour depth and support for file formats such as
OpenEXR are important.
Dunno. The only cinepaint I had seen was called  "filmgimp"
5) Adobe Photoshop users, particularly proffesional artists love Adobe
Photoshop.  Price is not really an issue when the company is paying (up
to a point, companies will eventually draw the line (no pun intended))
GIMP/CinePaint needs to be more than just as good, it needs to
be significantly better for that kind of specialist user to make the
effort to change. >
The killer feature(s) in the GIMP is freedom, and so cheap it is free.
Proffessionals who depend on Adobe Photoshop are probably the last
people that will convert to the GIMP.  The value they place on Photoshop
is not just the box price, it is the years of time and effort invested
into learning it inside out and more.
Actually, one of the many replies pointed to this: Disney, better, the 
departament that went Wine/photoshop, actually tried pushing GIMP or 
CinePaint, but got a big No from the artists. That means you are 
completely right, Alan.

However after saying all that a whole lot could have been done to improve
the GIMP or (and you are not going to like me for saying this) more likely
CinePaint, with the hefty amount of money that Disney was willing to spend
on this project.
Perhaps if Adobe Photoshop 8 fails to maintain WINE compatibility they
will look this way again.
Has anyone mailed the man at Disney yet?  I probably will, and encourage
him to provide feedback, hopefully with a little more detail than just
make it more like Photoshop.
He seems to be in some way affiliated with CinePaint already
(I forget his name but I looked it up when the article was first mentioned).
- Alan




My post on /. on this subject was: (I am Pope Raymond Lama there)

__
Re:Disney supporting open-source? (Score:*, Insightful)
by Pope Raymond Lama (57277)  on Tue Aug 05, '03 12:25 PM (#6616021)
(http://www.geocities.com/gwidion23)
 No. Disney non-supporting Open Source,
as it has always been.
Now, instead of using, and helping
improving The GIMP, "linux people"
will just run their pirated Photoshops
and be happy, as oftenly such users
do not know the difference between free
and proprietary software.
--
-><- no .sig is good sig.
__
In reply to:
Disney supporting open-source? (Score:5, Funny)
by Prince_Ali (614163)  on Tue Aug 05, '03 12:13 PM (#6615846)
(Last Journal: Sun Oct 27, '02 05:19 PM)
 I can feel the slashdotters' brains explode with conflict.
--
Money follows votes; it does not buy votes.
Two legs better!
__
URLs follow:
/. Article:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/05/1552255
/. Comment:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=73635&threshold=2&commentsort=0&tid=106&mode=thread&cid=6616021

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Re: [Gimp-developer] fun with Adobe forums

2003-08-27 Thread Alan Horkan 

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:

> > So, did you guys know that Disney considered using the GIMP and/or
> > Cinepaint, but instead paid some coders to make sure PS runs in
> > WINE?
> >
> > 
> Yup.

When this was on Slashdot I did mention at least in a PS at the end of one
of my mails.
/me thinks of searching the archive
but is the archive working again?
will the alternative link suggested be up to date
(last time I looked it was lagging by a few days)
...
but anyway I am logged in on a console, so I'll skip finding a link this
time.

> I saw this over on slashdot. And when I commented there something
> about preferring to see th GIMP, if not for anything else, for the
> free-software question, I got some 15 replies flaming me all over.

1) You will probably get flamed no matter what you say on Slashdot,
although I am would be interested to read exactly what you wrote.

2) Gimp and CinePaint were incidental to the article, the big deal was
that Disney *EVIL* actually spent some money and helped improve WINE
*GOOD* (although some looonatics object to WINE on a twisted notion
that compatability with legacy applications is a bad idea).

3) They probably only evaluated GIMP 1.2, and even though GIMP 1.3 is a
lot better I dont think any of you will deny there is 'room for
improvement'

4) Although there are some tradeoffs CinePaint better fills the niche for
a movie studio, higher colour depth and support for file formats such as
OpenEXR are important.

5) Adobe Photoshop users, particularly proffesional artists love Adobe
Photoshop.  Price is not really an issue when the company is paying (up
to a point, companies will eventually draw the line (no pun intended))
GIMP/CinePaint needs to be more than just as good, it needs to
be significantly better for that kind of specialist user to make the
effort to change.

The killer feature(s) in the GIMP is freedom, and so cheap it is free.
Proffessionals who depend on Adobe Photoshop are probably the last
people that will convert to the GIMP.  The value they place on Photoshop
is not just the box price, it is the years of time and effort invested
into learning it inside out and more.

However after saying all that a whole lot could have been done to improve
the GIMP or (and you are not going to like me for saying this) more likely
CinePaint, with the hefty amount of money that Disney was willing to spend
on this project.

Perhaps if Adobe Photoshop 8 fails to maintain WINE compatibility they
will look this way again.

Has anyone mailed the man at Disney yet?  I probably will, and encourage
him to provide feedback, hopefully with a little more detail than just
make it more like Photoshop.
He seems to be in some way affiliated with CinePaint already
(I forget his name but I looked it up when the article was first mentioned).

- Alan


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Re: [Gimp-developer] fun with Adobe forums

2003-08-26 Thread Joao S. O. Bueno 
On Monday 25 August 2003 9:32 pm, Branko Collin wrote:
> Sometimes, when I get bored, I start scouring forums on the net for
> GIMP related chat. Of course, it's extra double plus fun to search
> Adobe.com's forums for talk of the GIMP. Most of it is talk about
> GIMP-print, of course.
>
> --==+++==--
>
> So, did you guys know that Disney considered using the GIMP and/or
> Cinepaint, but instead paid some coders to make sure PS runs in
> WINE?
>
> 
Yup.

I saw this over on slashdot. And when I commented there something 
about preferring to see th GIMP, if not for anything else, for the 
free-software question, I got some 15 replies flaming me all over.

JS
-><-

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[Gimp-developer] fun with Adobe forums

2003-08-26 Thread Branko Collin 

Sometimes, when I get bored, I start scouring forums on the net for 
GIMP related chat. Of course, it's extra double plus fun to search 
Adobe.com's forums for talk of the GIMP. Most of it is talk about 
GIMP-print, of course.

--==+++==--

So, did you guys know that Disney considered using the GIMP and/or 
Cinepaint, but instead paid some coders to make sure PS runs in WINE?



>From the article: 

(start quote)

Although Brooks [Jack Brooks, director of technology at Walt Disney 
Feature Animation--ed.] considered and even tried to use several open-
source alternatives, including GIMP, or GNU Image Manipulation 
Program (see related story), and Cinepaint (formerly FilmGimp), he 
said he ran into performance issues with the two programs. Artists 
also found the open-source programs less intuitive to use than 
Photoshop.

And while Photoshop is the program of choice among Disney's artist 
base, Disney is keeping an eye on Cinepaint and is even using the 
program in a few cases, Brooks said.

"There's this whole artistic community built around Photoshop, and we 
couldn't easily move these people to free alternatives," Brooks said. 
"[But] we hope [Cinepaint] will get to the point where we can use it 
for more tasks."

(end quote)

Perhaps somebody should call Jack Brooks and see if Disney can put 
resources in GIMP's and GEGL's development?

--==+++==--

Apparently, Adobe is ready to release PS 8 any time now. Some 
discussion was going on in the forums if speculation about the 
release date and feature set of this version; would that not play 
into the hands of the competition. No, somebody thought, the major 
competitors, GIMP, PSP, probably were the first to know these things. 
:-)

--==+++==--

About developers listening to users: 

User: I'm a 3d Character artist. I build and paint 3d characters, and 
something I want is a way to paint in realtime onto my models. I know 
that there are other third party solutions for this, but photoshop is 
the best thing to paint with. I've seen it done with the GIMP, but 
there's no way I'm using linux. What are the technical limitations to 
this? If it's an OS problem, I personally have contacts at Microsoft 
who i've talked to about this problem and they seemed interested in 
it but there's nowhere to go without some Adobe input.

Developer: The limitation is some sort of standard support from the 
3D applications. If they want to work with Adobe, we'll work with 
them 

User: Is there anyone at Adobe in particular that would be the person 
to get in contact with? If I could get a Alias or Discreet rep 
interested, who would I point them to? 

Developer: Probably me, and I'll forward them to marketing to see if 
they're really interested. In the meantime we can start discussing 
what's needed in an API to do this. 

(I would have replied that you don't need Linux to use the GIMP, but 
you need to register, and I'd feel silly doing that as I am not using 
PS myself.)


-- 
branko collin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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