Re: Censorship protest relevance (was: Re: Continuation of my previous mail)

[DJ Delorie]

shulie  writes:
> That is MOSTLY, but not completely true.  The Phone company, for
> example, can not disconnect you because your a communist.

That's an example of the contract thing I mentioned.  They entered into
a contract where, in exchange for a temporary monopoly, they agreed to
operate under certain rules.  Most scarce resources (roads, radio
spectrum, etc) are managed this way here.

You can certainly make your own private phone company and kick out
whoever you want, but don't expect the same benefits that big phone
company gets.

The interesting question is: what will happen when the government starts
*forcing* companies to follow these rules, without compensation?  That's
where the censorship argument comes into play, and possibly the Fifth
Amendment (government can't just "take" without compensation).

Re: Censorship protest relevance (was: Re: Continuation of my previous mail)

[shulie]

On 5/13/21 1:56 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
>  There
> is no such thing as a "free speech right" in the USA *outside of* the
> laws themselves.



That is MOSTLY, but not completely true.  The Phone company, for
example, can not disconnect you because your a communist.

Re: Censorship protest relevance (was: Re: Continuation of my previous mail)

[DJ Delorie]

Jacob Bachmeyer  writes:
> Since GNU is based in USA, is this particular protest obsolete, as any 
> such censorship applied to us would be clearly unconstitutional,

For those outside the USA (and probably many inside too ;) ...

The USA laws don't work that way; the first amendment *only* prevents
the government from censoring the non-government, it has no power over
private people or organizations from censoring their own speech.  There
is no such thing as a "free speech right" in the USA *outside of* the
laws themselves.

  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
  or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
  speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
  assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Note the "Congress shall make no law" part.  That's all there is.
Nothing else is covered, nothing else is prevented, nothing else is
guaranteed.

So no, censorship in the USA is NOT unconstitutional.  Only laws that
cause censorship are.

(as an amusing twist, laws that try to *prevent* private censorship
could be considered unconstitutional, since that's also government
trying to control speech)

HOWEVER...

USA law doesn't stop private individuals or organizations from entering
into contracts that limit speech, and providing for damages etc if
violated, as long as the contract is fair and valid.  The government can
thus offer a contract whereby a clinic (for example) receives funds in
exchange for an agreement to limit speech.  This is not considered
censorship since the clinic may choose to not enter in to the contract
and thus not be limited.  Voluntary is OK, involuntary is not.  This is
no different than, for example, an NDA you must sign in exchange for
employment.

That such clinics may in fact go out of business without government
funding, while relevent in reality, is irrelevent in this context.


[and I couldn't tell if you were referring to the manual, or the federal
program referred to therein, so I tried to cover both, as neither is
legally considered "censorship"]

Re: Censorship protest relevance (was: Re: Continuation of my previous mail)

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Il 13/05/21 04:32, Jacob Bachmeyer ha scritto:
Since GNU is based in USA, is this particular protest obsolete, as any 
such censorship applied to us would be clearly unconstitutional, or are 
there still possible risks here?


In short, is this protest still accurate or can we now confidently say 
that that change will never happen?


It sounds extremely unlikely that the issue has been resolved or 
reduced. Relevant First Amendment doctrine is a continuously evolving 
target.



Federico

Censorship protest relevance (was: Re: Continuation of my previous mail)

[Jacob Bachmeyer]

Jean Louis wrote:

-@c Put in by rms.  Don't remove.
-@cartouche
-@strong{Future Change Warning:} Proposed Federal censorship regulations
-may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of
-calling this function.  We would be required to say that this is not an
-acceptable way of terminating a program.
-@end cartouche

There was some "Federal censorship regulation" that would prohibit the
free speech, and the pun is within the programs function is abort() on
Federal censorship regulation.
  


That was a controversy far enough back to be known to me more as recent 
history than as direct experience, but I understand that we have made 
significant progress since then towards program source code being 
recognized as protected free speech under the US Constitution and that 
much of our cryptographic source code is now distributed on that basis.  
Since GNU is based in USA, is this particular protest obsolete, as any 
such censorship applied to us would be clearly unconstitutional, or are 
there still possible risks here?


In short, is this protest still accurate or can we now confidently say 
that that change will never happen?  Do we still keep it anyway just to 
highlight the absurdity?


[CC'ing RMS here in case this has fallen through the cracks and we 
really have already won on this issue -- I do not know but I expect that 
he does]



-- Jacob

Re: Continuation of my previous mail

[Jean Louis]

* Ali Reza Hayati  [2021-05-10 11:57]:
> > If you mean that I said it for any other reason, then I apologise. If
> > RMS has not done any harm to anyone, then once again, I apologise, I was
> > only going by what I read on the Net. Just to get things straight and
> > end the matter, what exactly is this "joke about /abortion/"??!! I don't
> > find abortion anything to joke about. Someone tell me please.

It was not a joke on abortion really, that is how people like to
misinterpret it, as many will never go into finding the true source or
origin.

-@c Put in by rms.  Don't remove.
-@cartouche
-@strong{Future Change Warning:} Proposed Federal censorship regulations
-may prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of
-calling this function.  We would be required to say that this is not an
-acceptable way of terminating a program.
-@end cartouche

There was some "Federal censorship regulation" that would prohibit the
free speech, and the pun is within the programs function is abort() on
Federal censorship regulation.

It is not a pun on abortion. (But I don't state here if I would
condone or not condone any pun).

For example Anthony Comstock opposed the distribution of information
about abortion and birth control:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States

Now we have the situation:

- that pun is on proposed non-sensical anti free speech regulation;

- that it is funny, as the function is abort() and maybe the Federal
  authorities would even limit the programming code for using the
  word; 

- that it is absolutely not related to abortion, rather to the similar
  word in programming;

- that people call it "Abortion" joke, which is not;

- that RMS is accused for fighting the US censorship, on the fact-less
  "abortion joke"

That is the nature of misunderstanding which is then used
intentionally by few people to exaggerate and exaggerate to the
unbearable points.


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

Re: Continuation of my previous mail

[Ali Reza Hayati]

We don't live, think, talk, or act by your standards. Human beings are 
free are part of their freedom is freedom of speech and thought.


I'm sorry you're hurt by jokes or undesirable humor, I too get hurt 
sometimes, but that doesn't mean anything but that I'm incapable of 
laughing at that. Sometimes they are wrong, and sometimes they are not, 
in any case, you can't limit people because you don't like their taste 
or sense.


On 04/05/2021 11:36, Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free 
software discussions wrote:

I got a mail from "shulie" saying this:

 > *IF* RMS hurt any woman, that's why I said it.



nonsense


If you mean that I said it for any other reason, then I apologise. If 
RMS has not done any harm to anyone, then once again, I apologise, I was 
only going by what I read on the Net. Just to get things straight and 
end the matter, what exactly is this "joke about /abortion/"??!! I don't 
find abortion anything to joke about. Someone tell me please.


Sent using Zoho Mail 





--
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Continuation of my previous mail

[Kaz Kylheku (gnu-misc-discuss)]

On 2021-05-04 00:06, Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free 
software discussions wrote:

Just to get things straight and end the matter, what exactly is this
"joke about _abortion_"??!! I don't find abortion anything to joke 
about.

Someone tell me please.


There was never any joke about abortion in the GNU C library manual.

There was a satirical remark protesting legislation that prohibits 
talking

about abortion.

That remark, under the description of the C abort function, made its 
point

without mentioning the word "abortion" at al.

"Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may 
prohibit us
from giving you information about the possibility of calling this 
function. We
would be required to say that this is not an acceptable way of 
terminating a

program."

Though there is humor in it, it is serious and not simply a joke. It is 
no more
a joke than Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is a joke about poor 
people,

or about eating children.

Framing the remark as a joke about abortion is not a well-reasoned,
intellectual stance. It's merely a populist narrative intended to obtain
agreement in support of the remark's removal.

The remark opposes censorship in connection with talking about abortion. 
 That
censorship harms women who are in a situation where one of their options 
may
be to have an abortion, by curtailing their choices. Therefore, the 
remark

can be interpreted as supporting those women.

(Notably, the remark can also be interpreted as a clear instance in 
which

Richard Stallman, stood up for women.)

Not a joke about abortion at all, the remark says that practitioners 
should

be free to talk about abortion and offer it as a choice.

Obviously, the remark would not have sat well with members of certain
demographic groups who oppose such freedom and support the gag 
legislation.

Continuation of my previous mail

[Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free software discussions]

I got a mail from "shulie" saying this:



>  *IF* RMS hurt any woman, that's why I said it. 

 

 

 

nonsense





If you mean that I said it for any other reason, then I apologise. If RMS has 
not done any harm to anyone, then once again, I apologise, I was only going by 
what I read on the Net. Just to get things straight and end the matter, what 
exactly is this "joke about abortion"??!! I don't find abortion anything to 
joke about. Someone tell me please.



Sent using null

Re: Continuation of my previous mail

[Ali Reza Hayati]

Dear Rohit,
I hope you're well.

I get from your statement that you're angry about controversies of RMS 
and your decision to install a malware named Windows is coming from that.


I believe after 25 of years of interaction with the GNU operating system 
and Linux kernel, you've understood that the philosophy of the free 
software is for everyone, not only RMS.


Even if you hate RMS, you can love yourself, respect yourself, and be 
free from malware and proprietary software by using a libre operating 
system.


Best.

On 19/04/2021 18:36, Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free 
software discussions wrote:

Hi,
This is Rohit D from another account. I just wanted to post, with a 
heavy heart despite everything, that I have removed Linux and installed 
Windows. I gave Linux 25 years of my life. RMS, please don't harm any 
women. And obviously this holds true of all the computing community and 
every human being in general.

Bye.

Sent using Zoho Mail 





--
Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771


OpenPGP_0xDCB8F138B8651771_and_old_rev.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys


OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Continuation of my previous mail

[Jean Louis]

* Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free software discussions 
 [2021-04-21 09:43]:

> This is Rohit D from another account. I just wanted to post, with a
> heavy heart despite everything, that I have removed Linux and
> installed Windows. I gave Linux 25 years of my life. RMS, please
> don't harm any women. And obviously this holds true of all the
> computing community and every human being in general.

RMS did not harm any woman. Please read: https://stallmansupport.org/

Please don't make personal attacks on GNU mailing lists, and observe
the GNU Kind Communications Guidelines:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Though, I understand your good intentions, but not that I consider
that as a general statement valid at all times, there are times of
self-defense, both women and men may be criminals or attack each
other, there are times when people harm each other beyond this context
here.

By the way, I have sent recently 1050+ offers for employment in East
Africa and about 2 of them responded very rude, like in the sense that
I am disrespecting them because I have sent them offer for
employment. But they have published their offer to get a job, that is
why I responded to their ad. This short story tells me that there will
be people complaining about each and everything, including when one
would start giving them money for free.

Your analysis is incorrect.

HEREBY, I AM ASKING YOU TO REVERT YOUR DECISION, REMOVE THAT WINDOZE,
AND PUT GNU/LINUX ON IT... hahhahhahahah n, I ma just joking. What
did you expect?


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
https://rms-support-letter.github.io/

Continuation of my previous mail

[Rohit Dutt via General GNU project and free software discussions]

Hi,

This is Rohit D from another account. I just wanted to post, with a heavy heart 
despite everything, that I have removed Linux and installed Windows. I gave 
Linux 25 years of my life. RMS, please don't harm any women. And obviously this 
holds true of all the computing community and every human being in general.

Bye.



Sent using null