Re: GnuPG on Android [was: Re: FAQ and GNU]

[Bernhard Reiter]

Hi,

note that a search for "Android" in wiki.gnupg.org would have shown you the 
Guardian port of GnuPG 2.1 to Android. (I've added additional details now.)

Am Mittwoch 11 Oktober 2017 16:40:42 schrieb Daniel Kahn Gillmor:
> here's the project i was thinking of that was farthest along in terms of
> system integration on Android is:
>
>    https://guardianproject.info/code/gnupg/

In 2016 I've downloaded and briefly tried the app. It also was available from 
the Free Software app store for Android: fdroid. So it indeed build and ran.

The 2016 study for using OpenPGP on Android (in German) linked from
  https://wiki.gnupg.org/Gpg4all2015?highlight=(Android)
has a more elaborate discussion of the port. It tests the 2014 version
that was supposed to be installed from the app store between 100k and 500k 
times.

Best Regards,
Bernhard


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[MFPA]

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Hash: SHA512



On Friday 13 October 2017 at 2:27:34 PM, in
, Mario Castelán
Castro wrote:-


> On 12/10/17 17:58, MFPA wrote:
>>> Would it be
>>> correct to refer to
>>> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?

>> It is usual in and around London to call a car a
>> "motor".

> Alright.

>> Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less
>> correct.

> But one can not conclude that it is correct just
> because it is common.

Yes one can: as Rob pointed out, the definition of correctness in
English is whether it conforms to everyday usage in the community in
question.


- --
Best regards

MFPA  

Pain is inevitable, but misery is optional.
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Yes, but surely, given the question you must have seen this one
> coming :-D

I consider the current amusement I'm receiving small payment for my
having to read every last %$^$#@! message in the bikeshedding.

But, as it's been requested to take it off-list -- and it *is* pretty
off-topic -- I think it's only genteel to do so.  And what a shame: I
was looking forward to showing examples of iambic pentameter that were
neither iambic, nor pentameter.  :)

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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> However, from this does not follow that one individual or a majority
> are allowed to dispense of any rules and do as they please while
> claiming that they are speaking English.

Sure it does.  Chaucer, Joyce, Shakespeare.  We even have special
grammatical terms for when the author decided to say "to hell with it".

English is a strict subject-verb-object (SVO) language: screw that up
and you sound like Yoda... or Shakespeare.  "Bloody thou art; bloody
will be thy end." (_Richard III_)  Inverting word order is called
hyperbaton.

Sentence fragments are bad, right?  Meet anapodoton.

Repetition is bad.  Well, except if you're Churchill, in which case
epizeuxis is your friend.  "Never give in -- never, never, never, never,
in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to
convictions of honour and good sense.  Never yield to force; never yield
to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."

English is chock full of special rules that tells speakers how we ought
break the rules.  It's beautiful.  :)

> Instead, one must apply the well-known rules of English and use
> common sense in determining which words one will regard as
> legitimate. Leaving this judgment to majority amounts to the ad 
> populum fallacy and to such blatant absurdities as regarding the
> words “u”, “gotta” and “wanna” as valid synonyms of “you”, “got to”
> and “want to”.

Perfectly valid depending on the community and the dialect.  When I go
visit my Southern relatives I don't talk about dragonflies, I talk about
snake doctors.  I don't say "the sun went down," I say "the sun's gone
done."  It's called code-switching, the ability to shift between
different dialects, vocabularies, and grammatical rules.

I get that you're a linguistic prescriptivist.  But English --
especially American English -- isn't.

> In the case of the word “Linux”, my argument is that this word was 
> introduced (at least in informatics) for a specific use: To refer to
> a kernel.

Sure.  And "cheater" was originally introduced to refer to an employee
of the Crown charged with administering real estate.  But that's not
what it means any more, and that's not what Linux means any more, either.

> Thus it is not necessity, but plain sloppiness what explains it use
> as something else.

Sure.  English is a sloppy language; that's what makes it so awesome.
Embrace the mutability.  Set yourself free.  :)

> In short: Your argument "_many_ people use “Linux” to refer to any 
> Linux-based operating system, therefore it is correct English” is a
> big mistake.

I continue to be amused by your tendency to think the English language
has to respect the fragility of your linguistic beliefs.  :)

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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 13/10/17 09:30, Duane Whitty wrote:
>> Your argument is unsound, because the inference is unjustified.
>> The possibilities that a language is regulated by an official body
>> or defined by majority usage are not exhaustive.
> 
> I'd be interested to know what the other possibilities are.

I mentioned another possibility in my previous message: “one must apply
well-known rules of English and use common sense in determining words
one will regard as legitimate”. The whole of my previous message is an
elaboration of this.

> I think that if one individual tried […]

You are referring to an hypothetical individual who develops a language
reform. But that is not the case here. Here (the discussion is or was
around the word “Linux”) we simply have a misuse of a word which is not
part of a proposal of a language reform and has no rationale. Since
these cases are very different, the reasoning for one case does not
necessarily applies to the other case.

In the case of misuse of the word “Linux”, I have already given my
arguments. In the very different case of a well-made language reform, I
would immediately regard it a a legitimate variant of English. However,
it would be _inappropriate_ (not _incorrect_) to use it when it would
cause significant confusion or be an obstacle to communication.

> What about the role of media and its influence on popular culture?  If
> I say "C'mon, you gotta be kiddin me" everybody knows what I'm saying
> and its acceptability depends on the audience.

“Popular culture” is not a good source of what is correct, precisely
because of aberrations like this. Many things that are socially
acceptable are factually or morally incorrect. These concepts should not
be conflated.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Duane Whitty]

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On 17-10-11 12:55 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this 
>> particular bikeshed!
> 
> I agree.  Bikeshedding frustrates me: I'll leave it at that.
> 

Yes, but surely, given the question you must have seen this one
coming :-D

Best Regards,
Duane

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du...@nofroth.com
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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Duane Whitty]

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On 17-10-13 11:05 AM, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> On 12/10/17 17:50, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> The observation that one, some, many, or all people use a
>>> linguistic construct in an incorrect way do not change the fact
>>> that it is incorrect.
>> 
>> It quite definitely does.  Unlike, say, French or Icelandic,
>> where there's an actual institution charged with the development
>> of the language, the *only* definition of correctness in English
>> is found in whether it conforms to everyday usage in the
>> community in question.
> 
> Your argument is unsound, because the inference is unjustified.
> The possibilities that a language is regulated by an official body
> or defined by majority usage are not exhaustive.
> 
I'd be interested to know what the other possibilities are.

> Since you are talking about the definition of the English language,
> and noticed that there is no official definition, then I contend
> that there is no _definition_ of the English language at all.
> However, from this does not follow that one individual or a
> majority are allowed to dispense of any rules and do as they please
> while claiming that they are speaking English.

I think that if one individual tried they would initially meet with
resistance.  But over time language rules, both grammar and
vocabulary, change.  Even in a time as short as 30 years many changes
have occurred in the English language.  It is a dynamic language.
"Resistance is futile" :-)

 Instead, one must apply the well-known rules of
> English and use common sense in determining which words one will
> regard as legitimate. Leaving this judgment to majority amounts to
> the ad populum fallacy and to such blatant absurdities as regarding
> the words “u”, “gotta” and “wanna” as valid synonyms of “you”, “got
> to” and “want to”.
> 
What about the role of media and its influence on popular culture?  If
I say "C'mon, you gotta be kiddin me" everybody knows what I'm saying
and its acceptability depends on the audience.
> 
> In short: Your argument "_many_ people use “Linux” to refer to any 
> Linux-based operating system, therefore it is correct English” is a
> big mistake.
> 
I think it depends on the audience :-)
> 
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 

Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Matthias Apitz]

El día viernes, octubre 13, 2017 a las 09:05:52a. m. -0500, Mario Castelán 
Castro escribió:

> Your argument is unsound, because the inference is unjustified. The
> possibilities that a language is regulated by an official body or
> defined by majority usage are not exhaustive.
> 
> ...

Could you please discuss this off-list. Thanks.

matthias


-- 
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+49-176-38902045
Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub
8. Mai 1945: Wer nicht feiert hat den Krieg verloren.
8 de mayo de 1945: Quien no festeja perdió la Guerra.
May 8, 1945: Who does not celebrate lost the War.


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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 12/10/17 17:50, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> The observation that one, some, many, or all people use a linguistic
>> construct in an incorrect way do not change the fact that it is
>> incorrect.
> 
> It quite definitely does.  Unlike, say, French or Icelandic, where
> there's an actual institution charged with the development of the
> language, the *only* definition of correctness in English is found in
> whether it conforms to everyday usage in the community in question.

Your argument is unsound, because the inference is unjustified. The
possibilities that a language is regulated by an official body or
defined by majority usage are not exhaustive.

Since you are talking about the definition of the English language, and
noticed that there is no official definition, then I contend that there
is no _definition_ of the English language at all. However, from this
does not follow that one individual or a majority are allowed to
dispense of any rules and do as they please while claiming that they are
speaking English. Instead, one must apply the well-known rules of
English and use common sense in determining which words one will regard
as legitimate. Leaving this judgment to majority amounts to the ad
populum fallacy and to such blatant absurdities as regarding the words
“u”, “gotta” and “wanna” as valid synonyms of “you”, “got to” and “want to”.

In the case of the word “Linux”, my argument is that this word was
introduced (at least in informatics) for a specific use: To refer to a
kernel. For an operating system based on Linux, the phrase “Linux-based
OS” is already accurate and unambiguous, and for one that includes GNU,
“GNU/Linux” is. Thus it is not necessity, but plain sloppiness what
explains it use as something else. Hence that I hold that any other use
should be rejected as illegitimate, in analogy with the sloppiness
behind the aforementioned aberrations (“u” for “you”, et cetera).

As a point of contrast: in the case of mathematics, it is necessary to
either coin entirely new words or use a pre-existing words with new
meanings. However, in this case it is justified because coining a new
words for each concept would require possible hundreds of words specific
to mathematics. The consequences are bad on all sides: First this
abundance of words would be hard to remember. Second, mathematicians
would hardly agree on a single new word for each concept leading to
diverging terminology. Third, the abundance of strange words would
contribute to the perception of mathematics by the general public as an
intimidating and incomprehensible subject.

In short: Your argument "_many_ people use “Linux” to refer to any
Linux-based operating system, therefore it is correct English” is a big
mistake.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> So how do you apply your superior language skills to improving gnupg
> nomenclature and documentation ?

By writing and maintaining the FAQ.  With the exception of some light
edits by Werner and about three sentences from A.M. Kuchling, the entire
thing is my work.

> Any chance you could put those in EPUB and other formats?

I'm not the manual maintainer; perhaps ask that person first.

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 12/10/17 17:58, MFPA wrote:
>> Would it be
>> correct to refer to
>> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?
> 
> It is usual in and around London to call a car a "motor".

Alright.

> Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less correct.

But one can not conclude that it is correct just because it is common.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Villarreal]

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Hash: SHA256

On 10/12/17 22:54, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> ... For someone who touts himself as a "languages geek
>> extraordinaire," I am shocked that you'd claim this.
> 
> What, that I'm a linguistic descriptivist?  Dude...

So how do you apply your superior language skills to improving gnupg
nomenclature and documentation ?

re: https://www.gnupg.org/documentation/manuals.html
Any chance you could put those in EPUB and other formats?
http://idpf.org/epub

Thanks,
Daniel Villarreal
http://www.youcanlinux.org
youcanlinux at gmail.com
PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03  3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49
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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

>>> The observation that one, some, many, or all people use a
>>> linguistic construct in an incorrect way do not change the fact
>>> that it is incorrect.
> 
>> It quite definitely does.
> 
> This is silly. I am flabbergasted at this assertion.

Great: you learned something today!  Read up on linguistic
prescriptivism and descriptivism; you'll find it rewarding.

Style guides, dictionaries, and grammatical references are useful tools
in that they write down the tacit and informal agreements the world has
made about how to use language.  However, they're always behind the
times because the language is in constant flux.  To understand English,
one must look at how it is actually spoken.

> For someone who touts himself as a "languages geek extraordinaire," I
> am shocked that you'd claim this.

What, that I'm a linguistic descriptivist?  Dude, I also use words like
"cromulent"[1], enjoy a good split infinitive[2], use "they" as a
singular epicene[3], and when I'm really feeling naughty I'll drink wine
straight from the bottle and read James Joyce[4].

... And why, yes, my mother *is* an English teacher, and I *do* have a
liberal arts degree.  :)

[1] Recently added to dictionaries, despite it being an utterly made-up
word, due to how often it was being used in language
[2] "To boldly go where no one has gone before!"
[3] ... along with the Brontë sisters, Thackeray, and Shakespeare
[4] "I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair
like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he
kissed me under the Moorish Wall and I thought well as well him as
another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he
asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my
arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts
all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I
will Yes."


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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Villarreal]

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On 10/12/17 18:50, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> The observation that one, some, many, or all people use a
>> linguistic construct in an incorrect way do not change the fact
>> that it is incorrect.
> 
> It quite definitely does.

This is silly. I am flabbergasted at this assertion.


> ... the *only* definition of correctness in English is found> in
whether it conforms to everyday usage in the community in question.

For someone who touts himself as a "languages geek extraordinaire," I
am shocked that you'd claim this.

I don't expect Germans to communicate in anything other than German. I
appreciate that the main developer communicates in this forum in
English, but I certainly don't feel he owes it to anyone.


Servus,
Daniel Villarreal
http://www.youcanlinux.org
youcanlinux at gmail.com
PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03  3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[MFPA]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512



On Tuesday 10 October 2017 at 8:30:40 PM, in
, Mario Castelán
Castro wrote:-


> Would it be
> correct to refer to
> a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?


It is usual in and around London to call a car a "motor".
Calling it an "engine" seems no more or no less correct.



- --
Best regards

MFPA  

Reality is nothing but a collective hunch.
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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> The observation that one, some, many, or all people use a linguistic
> construct in an incorrect way do not change the fact that it is
> incorrect.

It quite definitely does.  Unlike, say, French or Icelandic, where
there's an actual institution charged with the development of the
language, the *only* definition of correctness in English is found in
whether it conforms to everyday usage in the community in question.

You can insist all you want that a cheater is someone appointed by the
Crown to look after royal escheats, but (a) nobody cares that's what the
word originally meant and (b) you'll be using the language incorrectly.

(How did cheater get associated with dishonest people?  Let's say the
Crown's cheaters had a certain reputation...)

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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

Despite the bulk of your message, the only attempt at an argument is
“English is an evolving language”. The rest is completely irrelevant.

That English is a changing language is not a justification to misuse
words. The word “Linux” meant a kernel when it was introduced to
informatics and it still does. The observation that one, some, many, or
all people use a linguistic construct in an incorrect way do not change
the fact that it is incorrect. Other examples: “try and” (when it should
be “try to”), “wanna”, “gotta”, “electric current flows” (current may
flow; but most of the time this is erroneous and the phrase should be
“charge flows”).

If you reply with another iteration of the same fallacy or irrelevant
comments, I will ignore your message.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> The bulk of people use "Linux" to mean both terms, in casual and formal
> speech and writing.  You may as well try and insist we use "United
> States of America" all the time instead of "America";  context alone
> typically implies the intended meaning.

It's tempting, but unfair, to call these people a bunch of ideologues.
Most of us on this mailing list are ideologues, after all.  Human
rights, privacy, software freedom -- these are all pretty good ideas,
and I think we're right to be motivated by them.  They seem to be
logologues instead: it isn't enough to have the right ideas and be
working to put them into action, but we need to only use the right
language about it, as if the words were more important than the deeds.

One of my closest friends is a staunch atheist, the kind who thinks
Richard Dawkins is too conciliatory towards people of faith.  Recently
he suffered a stroke.  At the first sign he told one of his friends,
"I'm stroking out: help me."  He then sat there, cool as a cucumber with
a Zen smile on his face, as everyone jumped into action around him.  It
unnerved the paramedics, who thought his utter calm was a sign he didn't
understand what was happening.  Quite the opposite: as he explained to
the doctors, he understood what was happening perfectly well and that's
why he was so calm.  What was happening was he'd asked his friends to
save him, and so he was going to get saved: why should he worry?

Whenever he tells that story I laugh.  A man who claims to have no faith
demonstrates the power of it.  The way he *lives* faith, keeping
cheerful in the face of imminent death just on the strength of his
conviction that his friends would save him, is awe-inspiring.  I have
better sense than to tell him this, though: he'd get grouchy and accuse
me of being really annoying -- and he'd be right.  We can both enjoy the
benefits of faith in our lives, even if only one of us believes in God.

Ideologues: good.  Logologues: really annoying.

I will leave any application of this to the GNU/Linux-vs-Linux, or Free
Software-vs-Open Source, arguments to the reader.  I will, however, ask
that we remember we're ideologues of deeply compatible stripes.  :)

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Re: OT: FAQ and GNU

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Mario,

> > You snipped the bit where I said "Linux" has two meanings in the
> > English language depending on context.
>
> In the previous message you said “"Linux" can be the kernel or a
> distro.”.

"Linux" can be the kernel or a distro.  Context makes this clear in
the majority of cases.  Appending `kernel' or `distribution' in the
odd remaining case is sufficient.

> But this is outright incorrect (Linux is not a distribution).

You cut the important part.

> Thus I elided this part according to my practice of omitting
> irrelevant text in a reply to keep the messages to a readable size.

Or that contradicts your argument.

> The name “Linux” was invented for the kernel for which Linus Torvalds
> is known. Later, lazy people incorrecting began using the same word to
> refer to basically any software bundle that include this kernel.

No, not lazy people.  English-speaking people.  The language is
constantly evolving, taking on foreign words, allowing its rules to
adjust over time, assimilating...  That's why it's on course to be the
world's language, if it's not already.

The bulk of people use "Linux" to mean both terms, in casual and formal
speech and writing.  You may as well try and insist we use "United
States of America" all the time instead of "America";  context alone
typically implies the intended meaning.

> > Given your admirable, though misplaced, zeal, I doubt there's a
> > considered argument to be had here.

I should take my own advice!

> Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan

`Duck to go' is an unfortunate choice.  :-)

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Neal H. Walfield]

At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:47:29 +0200,
Werner Koch wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:15, n...@walfield.org said:
> 
> > I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> > was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
> 
> Actually we solved the Bionic problems a long time ago.  The major
> problem was actually custom pinentry for android.  That has been
> written and I have seen reports that everything worked.

That's great to know, thanks!  Unfortunately, it appears that there
have either been regressions or the people that I spoke with made some
mistakes.

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Werner Koch]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:15, n...@walfield.org said:

> I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is

Actually we solved the Bionic problems a long time ago.  The major
problem was actually custom pinentry for android.  That has been
written and I have seen reports that everything worked.  However, the
guardianproject ran out of funding and the involved hackers moved on to
other projects


Salam-Shalom,

   Werner

-- 
Die Gedanken sind frei.  Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.


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GnuPG on Android [was: Re: FAQ and GNU]

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Wed 2017-10-11 09:15:41 +0200, Neal H. Walfield wrote:
> At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:26:21 +0200,
> Werner Koch wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:
>> 
>> > Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
>> > Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
>> 
>> There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
>> to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
>> build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.
>
> I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
> was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
> currently stalled.

I've been asked about this repeatedly myself, and my impression aligns
with what Neal is saying, but i'd be happy to be wrong.

here's the project i was thinking of that was farthest along in terms of
system integration on Android is:

   https://guardianproject.info/code/gnupg/

At any rate, it sounds like the details here might be something that we
want to put in the FAQ :)

Clearly it is *not* the case that most Android-based Linux systems
(which is to say, most Linux-based systems, when measuring by
installation count) come with GnuPG installed by default, alas. :(

--dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Neal H. Walfield]

At Wed, 11 Oct 2017 08:26:21 +0200,
Werner Koch wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:
> 
> > Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
> > Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
> 
> There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
> to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
> build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.

I'm aware of an effort that tried to port GnuPG to Android.  bionic
was a source of several problems.  As far as I know, the work is
currently stalled.


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Neal H. Walfield]

At Tue, 10 Oct 2017 23:55:32 -0400,
Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> 
> > Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this 
> > particular bikeshed!
> 
> I agree.  Bikeshedding frustrates me: I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Reviewing the last forty-odd emails on the subject, there are a small
> number of regular contributors to the community who are in favor, a
> small number opposed, and a smaller number of mostly-lurkers who have
> exceptionally strong feelings.
> 
> I do not see a community consensus one way or another.  I'll continue
> with my original plan.

I didn't realize that there was a vote.  FWIW, I agree with dkg,
although I'm not particularly passionate about it.

:) Neal

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Werner Koch]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 20:55, b...@adversary.org said:

> Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
> Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP

There might be a problems with the current release but GnuPG is expected
to build for Android just fine.  And on AIX and HP/UX.  There might be
build problems but that are bugs we need to fix.


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 11:02, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> Please note, it's "GnuPG".  That's the project name.  If you wish to
> acknowledge that it's a GNU project then it's GNU GnuPG.  :-)

Well, then blame this project for being undecided about what its own
name is. They use both “GNU Privacy Guard” (which I abbreviate as “GNU
PG”) and “GnuPG”.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 11:05, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
>> the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
>> developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
>> possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
>> hate to acknowledge this.
> 
> So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.

Nice straw man fallacy. I have never asked anybody to call “GNU/*” all
free software projects, or anything similar, so your argument is unsound.

Moreover, there is no analogy between “FreeBSD” and “Linux”:

*The name “FreeBSD” has always referred to a specific distribution. That
is how people use it. There is no problem here.

*The name “Linux” refers to a specific *kernel* (from “Linus”, the first
author of this kernel). If you use the name “Linux” to refer to the
kernel, there is no problem, but using it for anything else is
incorrect, even if it *includes* Linux. Would it be correct to refer to
a car as an “engine”, because it includes an engine?

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 11:04, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> You snipped the bit where I said "Linux" has two meanings in the English
> language depending on context.  Given your admirable, though misplaced,
> zeal, I doubt there's a considered argument to be had here.

In the previous message you said “"Linux" can be the kernel or a
distro.”. But this is outright incorrect (Linux is not a distribution).
Thus I elided this part according to my practice of omitting irrelevant
text in a reply to keep the messages to a readable size.

The name “Linux” was invented for the kernel for which Linus Torvalds is
known. Later, lazy people incorrecting began using the same word to
refer to basically any software bundle that include this kernel.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Ben McGinnes]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 02:06:17AM +, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

Oh ... say hi to RMS from us.  ;)

> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I personally don't mind either way, but it is worth mentioning that in
the context of the GPG FAQ, it might be more accurate to say that it
is GNU/Linux.  Unless, of course, there are examples of the current
source code compiling on non-GNU/Linux systems successfully.

Has anyone managed to get any part of the GPG libs to compile on
Android/Linux?  As far as I'm aware no one has and all OpenPGP
implementations on Android devices require an entirely separate stack,
usually a Java implementation, but I'll be very happy to be proven
wrong on that.


Regards,
Ben



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Leo Gaspard]

On 10/10/2017 08:23 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:
> On Tue 2017-10-10 19:46:28 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
>> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
>> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
>> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
>> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
>> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”)
> 
> There's no "must" that a GNU system contain GnuPG.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So I think this FAQ is more correct if it's re-written to say
> "GNU/Linux" here and in the other place i mentioned.

Agreeing here.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Tue 2017-10-10 19:46:28 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”)

There's no "must" that a GNU system contain GnuPG.

For example, on Debian ("GNU/Linux"), it's possible in the "testing"
version to have no gnupg package installed at all if you want a
particularly minimal system.  One narrowly-scoped tool from the GnuPG
suite (gpgv) is required if you want secure software updates, but you
can even do away with that if your updates are handled some other way
(or if it is a one-shot system that will never be updated).

That said, on most standard Debian systems, GnuPG is indeed installed by
default, and even on systems where it isn't installed by default, it's
a simple "apt install gnupg" away.

So I think this FAQ is more correct if it's re-written to say
"GNU/Linux" here and in the other place i mentioned.

Amazing how much people want to comment on the color of this particular
bikeshed!

Can we get back to improving GnuPG itself?

   --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[ankostis]

On 10 October 2017 at 20:46, Leo Gaspard  wrote:
> On 10/10/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:> (where is the FAQ
> maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
>> patches?)
>
> I based my quotes on https://dev.gnupg.org/source/gnupg-doc.git ,
> directory web/faq, running `git grep Linux`.
>
>> I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
>> one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
>> suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
>> if you change it to GNU/Linux.
>>
>> Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
>> comparison?
>
> Hmm, I was thinking sta.li would have gnupg, but it looks like it
> doesn't come embedded. Thanks for noticing!
>
> I would thus like to withdraw this statement, as well as the other one
> you pointed out.
>
> That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
> feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
> as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
> if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
> includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
> interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”) If I'm correct and
> this would be a pleonasm, then maybe replacing it with “most Linux
> distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool, with the notable exception of
> Android” would make more sense? Then again maybe GNU/Linux would be both
> more precise and simpler indeed, despite the pleonasm.

Maybe start using "Gnu Variants"[1], because that is technically precise.
For instance, this name includes also `cygwin`, which requires the
typical configure-make-install procedure?

Those compiling GnuPG for other platform may clarify the situation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_variants

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
of the GNU project to be given proper credit.

Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
hate to acknowledge this.

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
of recognition of the GNU projects.

The most important contribution of the GNU project is not the software
packages, but starting the free software movement. GNU/Linux
distributions are only possible because of free software.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 07:13, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> Do not change to using GNU/Linux.  It's a purely political term;  there
> is no case for technical accuracy.  Alongside GNU programs I have Clang,
> musl C library, X Windows, KDE, Firefox, LibreOffice and many other
> non-GNU project, non-GNU licensed, parts.  Singling out GNU for credit
> is unfair to those.

Your argument is self-defeating. There is no reason to single Linux. It
is just another of thousands of programs without which a computer would
be useless exactly as the others you mentioned.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mario Castelán Castro]

On 10/10/17 04:45, Peter Lebbing wrote:
> That to me means I would support leaving it as is. I don't feel strongly
> on writing it one way or another, but I do dislike the pressure some
> people exert on others pushing their view. If however you are
> consistently writing "Microsoft Windows®" everywhere in the FAQ, I'd
> find it natural to write "GNU/Linux" as well.

This is a fallacy. Windows *is* Microsoft Windows, the only thing called
“Windows” (as a proper noun) in informatics.

Not so with “GNU/Linux”. GNU/Linux is not Linux. Linux is a kernel.
GNU/Linux is the combination of this kernel with software from the GNU
project.

The word “operating system” is too vague to have a reasonable discussion
of exactly what set of programs are part of an operating system. In any
case, it is clear that Linux is a kernel, not an operating system[1].

Also, the argument that GNU PG can be used on Linux without GNU is
invalid, for it can also be used without Linux. Several BSD variants
include GNU PG.

[1] I challenge anybody who replies with “operating system”=“kernel” to
explain how this viewpoint is compatible with the practice of calling
FreeBSD, Windows, OS X (as a whole) and so on an “operating system” and
not a “kernel”.

-- 
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Leo Gaspard]

On 10/10/2017 06:45 PM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:> (where is the FAQ
maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
> patches?)

I based my quotes on https://dev.gnupg.org/source/gnupg-doc.git ,
directory web/faq, running `git grep Linux`.

> I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
> one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
> suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
> if you change it to GNU/Linux.
> 
> Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
> comparison?

Hmm, I was thinking sta.li would have gnupg, but it looks like it
doesn't come embedded. Thanks for noticing!

I would thus like to withdraw this statement, as well as the other one
you pointed out.

That said, I wonder whether the sentence with “all GNU/Linux distros
feature a suitable GnuPG tool” would make sense at all, given GnuPG is,
as pointed out by Mike, part of the GNU operating system, which would,
if I understand correctly, mean that as soon as the distribution
includes GNU it must include GnuPG? (I may easily be wrong in my
interpretation of “part of the GNU operating system”) If I'm correct and
this would be a pleonasm, then maybe replacing it with “most Linux
distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool, with the notable exception of
Android” would make more sense? Then again maybe GNU/Linux would be both
more precise and simpler indeed, despite the pleonasm.

Thanks for the comment!
Leo



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Tue 2017-10-10 18:05:15 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.

Debian actually does ship a "port" that uses the FreeBSD kernel and the
GNU userland, and it calls it GNU/kFreeBSD.

  https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/

This naming clarity is useful to distinguish it from the FreeBSD
operating system, which uses the FreeBSD userland with the FreeBSD
kernel.

There is no single userland required for any kernel (though some
userlands do require a specific kernel).  When we're talking about
GNU/Linux distros, we should name them for what they are.

Enjoy,

 --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mike Gerwitz]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 17:56:05 +0100, Andrew Gallagher wrote:
> On 10/10/17 17:33, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> Not promoting its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.
>
> There is nothing in the GPL that requires one to be an evangelist. If
> the FAQ is incorrect or misleading, let's change it. But "insufficient
> fervour" is not sufficient grounds.

There may be a misunderstanding.

GnuPG is a package that is a part of the GNU operating system.  The list
of all such packages can be found here:

  https://www.gnu.org/software/

GNU is usually used with the kernel Linux.  GNU doesn't require that
packages support any other kernel (e.g. Hurd).  But the operating system
is GNU.  GnuPG works on other operating systems, but GNU only requires
that it work best on GNU, or at least as well as other operating
systems.

The GPL is unrelated to this discussion.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Andrew Gallagher]

On 10/10/17 17:33, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> Not promoting its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.

There is nothing in the GPL that requires one to be an evangelist. If
the FAQ is incorrect or misleading, let's change it. But "insufficient
fervour" is not sufficient grounds.

-- 
Andrew Gallagher



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

Thanks for going through the specific instances of Linux in the FAQ,
Leo.  This is what i was asking for when i was wondering whether a
concrete diff has been proposed.

(where is the FAQ maintained, btw?  how is one expected to submit
patches?)

I agree with all of Leo's conclusions except for the following:

On Tue 2017-10-10 18:03:52 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
>> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)
>
> Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
> on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
> no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

I suspect that many minimal Linux-based operating systems (particularly
one that uses sbase instead of the GNU userland) will *not* feature a
suitable GnuPG tool.  So the statement above is probably more accurate
if you change it to GNU/Linux.

Do you have a list of sbase+Linux distros that we can look at for
comparison?

Certainly, the Linux distro known as Android does *not* feature a
suitable GnuPG tool :(

>> *** … for Linux?
>>
>> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
>> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
>> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!
>
> The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
> GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
> easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

Again, i think this FAQ section is actually talking about GNU/Linux
systems, and it would be more appropriate to say that explicitly, rather
than to pretend that this covers every Linux-based operating system (it
clearly does not).

 --dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mike Gerwitz]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:37:15 -0300, Duane Whitty wrote:
> On 17-10-10 10:13 AM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is
>> used to describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should
>> be used.
>>
>> Please see:
>>
>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
>>
> I respect your point-of-view and your right to express it.  I would
> like to point out though that this link, from gnu.org, would be
> expected (at least by me) to promote a GNU centric and rightfully
> self-promoting view of how to proceed.

Of course it does.  GnuPG is _part of_ the GNU Project.  Not promoting
its own ideals is working contrary to its goals.

The link I provided is GNU policy.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mike Gerwitz]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 18:03:52 +0200, Leo Gaspard wrote:
> On 10/10/2017 03:13 PM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>> 
>> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
>> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.
>
> The occurences of “Linux” in the FAQ are in the following sentences,
> according to a `git grep` in the FAQ directory:

I haven't looked over the FAQ personally; I was just providing GNU's
stance on the issue.

But thank you for outlining it.

>> Except for a slight wording change, this DCO is identical to the one
> used by the Linux kernel.
>
> This sentence clearly deserves a Linux and not GNU/Linux... regardless
> of whether GnuPG is part of the “GNU operating system” (sorry for the
> quotes, it's the first time I hear this phrase) or not.

Yes, that shouldn't be GNU/Linux.

>> - Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds.
>
> Clearly Linux and not GNU/Linux once again.

Right.

>> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)
>
> Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
> on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
> no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

If the intent is really to convey any distribution using the kernel
Linux, then it could say any "distros based on the kernel Linux", or
more weakly "Linux-based".

I don't think that's what it means.

>> *** … for Linux?
>>
>> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
>> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
>> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!
>
> The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
> GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
> easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

"Linux system" is explicitly mentioned as something to avoid in the
maintainers document I referenced.

>>  … for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?
>
> It's already GNU/Linux.

Good!

>> ** … Linux or FreeBSD?
>>
>> [Follows a list of email clients compatible with non-{Windows,Mac}
>> operating systems]
>
> Do Thunderbird, Gnus, Mutt, Kontact, Evolution or Claws-Mail not work on
> computers which would have swapped the GNU userland with eg. sbase? If
> so, maybe it'd be good to add a note stating that it doesn't work
> without GNU tools, but I don't see any reason to exclude
> non-GNU-userspace-based Linux distribution from the list, especially
> given how FreeBSD is included in there too.

Same as above.

In any case, GNU packages have a bias toward GNU.  Emphasizing
"Linux-based" systems instead of GNU isn't much different than Apple
advertising BSD-based systems instead of Mac.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Duane Whitty]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-09 11:06 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
Rob, thanks for taking time out of your day and busy schedule for
dealing with this issue.  Too bad it is such a contentious issue for
so many people.  Thank you for your fairness and collaborative and
community minded approach.

Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Duane Whitty]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-09 11:06 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make
> sure that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting
> the proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
I just did a search for the term "Linux" in the FAQ.  I did this so
that the conversation would be about a concrete instance and not based
so much on abstract concepts.  The search returned four instances of
the word "Linux".

First match was a trademark attribution of the term "Linux" to Linus
Torvalds.

The second match was in a sub-header for section 3.6 "From where can I
download it…" "… for Linux?" with text as follows (containing 3rd match)
:

"The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG
on Linux systems. The good news is that it’s usually installed by
default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!"

In this context does Linux mean any system running the Linux kernel or
does it mean something else?

The fourth match is "… for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?" also a part of
the section "From where can I download it…"


Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Mario,

> Your argument is self-defeating. There is no reason to single Linux.
> It is just another of thousands of programs without which a computer
> would be useless exactly as the others you mentioned.

You snipped the bit where I said "Linux" has two meanings in the English
language depending on context.  Given your admirable, though misplaced,
zeal, I doubt there's a considered argument to be had here.

-- 
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https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Leo Gaspard]

On 10/10/2017 03:13 PM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.

The occurences of “Linux” in the FAQ are in the following sentences,
according to a `git grep` in the FAQ directory:

> Except for a slight wording change, this DCO is identical to the one
used by the Linux kernel.

This sentence clearly deserves a Linux and not GNU/Linux... regardless
of whether GnuPG is part of the “GNU operating system” (sorry for the
quotes, it's the first time I hear this phrase) or not.

> - Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds.

Clearly Linux and not GNU/Linux once again.

> (all Linux distros feature a suitable GnuPG tool)

Do we really want to exclude distros based on the Linux kernel but not
on the GNU base utilities, but rather on eg. sbase [1]? I'd say there is
no compelling reason to, so no reason to switch to GNU/Linux here.

> *** … for Linux?
>
> The bad news is there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on
> Linux systems.  The good news is that it’s usually installed by
> default, so nothing needs to be downloaded!

The same argument leads me to think there is no reason to switch to
GNU/Linux here again; distros without the GNU userspace don't have an
easier way to install than distros with the GNU userspace as far as I know.

>  … for Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu?

It's already GNU/Linux.

> ** … Linux or FreeBSD?
>
> [Follows a list of email clients compatible with non-{Windows,Mac}
> operating systems]

Do Thunderbird, Gnus, Mutt, Kontact, Evolution or Claws-Mail not work on
computers which would have swapped the GNU userland with eg. sbase? If
so, maybe it'd be good to add a note stating that it doesn't work
without GNU tools, but I don't see any reason to exclude
non-GNU-userspace-based Linux distribution from the list, especially
given how FreeBSD is included in there too.


Thus, I'm not in favor of any change to the current FAQ, to replace a
Linux by a GNU/Linux.

Cheers,
Leo


[1] https://core.suckless.org/sbase



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Leo Gaspard]

On 10/10/2017 05:55 PM, Mario Castelán Castro wrote:
> On 10/10/17 01:46, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
>> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
>> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
>> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
>> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
>> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
>> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.
> 
> To me it appears hypocritical that you are speaking of “respecting
> community rights” where the aforesaid communities (more precisely, the
> founding developers who are the ones that actually choose the name of
> the distribution, not the later community) have stepped over the right
> of the GNU project to be given proper credit.
> 
> Recall that the most important contribution of the GNU project is not
> the software packages, but starting the free software movement and
> developing the most important licenses. GNU/Linux distributions are only
> possible because of free software ideology, even though many such would
> hate to acknowledge this.

So we should call FreeBSD “GNU/FreeBSD” instead? Sorry, I could not resist.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Mario,

> the argument that GNU PG can be used on Linux

Please note, it's "GnuPG".  That's the project name.  If you wish to
acknowledge that it's a GNU project then it's GNU GnuPG.  :-)

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Duane Whitty]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



On 17-10-10 10:13 AM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ
>> be replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> 
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is
> used to describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should
> be used.
> 
> Please see:
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
> 
I respect your point-of-view and your right to express it.  I would
like to point out though that this link, from gnu.org, would be
expected (at least by me) to promote a GNU centric and rightfully
self-promoting view of how to proceed.

> 
> 
> ___ Gnupg-users mailing
> list Gnupg-users@gnupg.org 
> http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-users
> 
I believe FAQ should be left as is.

Best Regards,
Duane

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Andrew Gallagher]

On 10/10/17 13:13, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> 
> Those preferring GNU/Linux are more likely to reply.

This is a universal problem that is not understood well enough. If you
want to know what people actually think, you have to a) actively survey
them, and b) control for biases in the responses. This is a nontrivial
process. Anything else tells you at best what memes are trendy[1], and
at worst what factions are committed to entryism[2]. ;-)

[1] #boatymcboatface
[2]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11741861/How-you-can-help-Jeremy-Corbyn-win-and-destroy-the-Labour-Party.html

-- 
Andrew Gallagher



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[ankostis]

+1
The are very few references of "Linux" in the FAQ btw.

On Tue 10 Oct 2017, 16:42 Mike Gerwitz,  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> > A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> > replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>
> GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
> describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.
>
> Please see:
>
>   https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux
>
> --
> Mike Gerwitz
> Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
> GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
> https://mikegerwitz.com
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Mike Gerwitz]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

GnuPG is part of the GNU operating system.  Anywhere "Linux" is used to
describe the GNU/Linux operating system, "GNU/Linux" should be used.

Please see:

  https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Ralph Corderoy]

Hi Robert,

> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

I thought this zealotry had fizzled out about 2013.  :-)

> However, in order to make sure that the FAQ reflects the community's
> wishes, I'm submitting the proposal here for community feedback.

Those preferring GNU/Linux are more likely to reply.

> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

Do not change to using GNU/Linux.  It's a purely political term;  there
is no case for technical accuracy.  Alongside GNU programs I have Clang,
musl C library, X Windows, KDE, Firefox, LibreOffice and many other
non-GNU project, non-GNU licensed, parts.  Singling out GNU for credit
is unfair to those.

"Linux" can be the kernel or a distro.  Context makes this clear in the
majority of cases.  Appending `kernel' or `distribution' in the odd
remaining case is sufficient.

GNU/Linux is more awkward to read, and to verbalise in the mind.  Using
RMS's declaration of correction pronunciation, "GNU slash Linux" or "GNU
plus Linux", makes this worse.  (He argues, correctly, saying "GNU
Linux" is wrong because it suggests Linux is a GNU project.)

The term GNU/Linux is dying a natural death.  Do not resuscitate.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[charlie derr]

On 10/09/2017 11:20 PM, Francesco Ariis wrote:
> Hello Robert,
>
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
> A request has been made by whom?
>
>> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
>> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
>> proposal here for community feedback.
>>
>> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.
> I would say it is a fair change.

+1

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[ankostis]

On 10 October 2017 at 08:46, Robert J. Hansen  wrote:
> ...
> In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
> context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
> "there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."
> The truth/validity of that statement is in no way dependent on whether
> one's talking about a system that uses the GNU userland or the BSD userland.

Is there Linux with BSD userland?

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 10/10/2017 01:46 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
>> from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
>> "GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
>> accurate and precise term.
> 
> I disagree.  It's a more political term.

There is nothing political about giving proper credit to the GNU Project
for the operating system (the software which Linux, the kernel, boots
into in order to provide a useful system).

> With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
> prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
> Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
> set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
> appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
> to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
> that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

I will happily refer to, for example, Ubuntu GNU/Linux since there is
clearly a GNU userland surrounding Linux, the kernel. I feel wrong doing
otherwise.

> When speaking generically about operating systems using the Linux
> kernel, there it seems GNU is also inappropriate.  GNU is not an
> inseparable part of Linux; we should not promulgate the myth they are.

I agree that it is possible to use other userlands (BSD derivatives, or
whatever Android is) with Linux, the kernel. However, the vast majority
of so-called "Linux distributions" in fact rely on GNU software (most
notably GNU coreutils and GNU libc) to function.

> In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
> context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
> "there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."

s/on Linux systems/on systems which boot using Linux, the kernel/

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Peter Lebbing]

On 10/10/17 04:06, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> I'm not inclined to make this change.

That to me means I would support leaving it as is. I don't feel strongly
on writing it one way or another, but I do dislike the pressure some
people exert on others pushing their view. If however you are
consistently writing "Microsoft Windows®" everywhere in the FAQ, I'd
find it natural to write "GNU/Linux" as well.

I think you should pick your fights. That means I think people shouldn't
be pushing others to include GNU/. It also means I would soon capitulate
and just give them their way, changing it to GNU/Linux. It's just not
worth it. Luckily, I've yet to see people pushing to drop the GNU/ :-).

> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I'm chiming in to say I don't have strong feelings :-D.

Cheers,

Peter.

-- 
I use the GNU Privacy Guard (GnuPG) in combination with Enigmail.
You can send me encrypted mail if you want some privacy.
My key is available at 



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Werner Koch]

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 04:06, r...@sixdemonbag.org said:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

Some distros call themselves "Foo GNU/Linux" and if the part of the FAQ
is about this specific distro, you should call it this way.  However in
most cases "Linux" describes the environment well enough and there is no
need to confuse people.

I'd say, keep it as it is.


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner



p.s.
Remember: “Nobody expects the Free Software Police.”

-- 
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

> However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
> from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
> "GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
> accurate and precise term.

I disagree.  It's a more political term.

With respect to specific distros, we ought use the name the distro
prefers.  The Fedora Project releases Fedora, not Fedora GNU/Linux.  The
Debian guys release Debian GNU/Linux, not Debian Linux.  The people who
set up these distros have given their distros names, and it seems
appropriate to use the names properly.  It is as inappropriate to refer
to Debian Linux as it is to refer to Fedora GNU/Linux: in both cases
that's rejecting the community's right to name their distro what they wish.

When speaking generically about operating systems using the Linux
kernel, there it seems GNU is also inappropriate.  GNU is not an
inseparable part of Linux; we should not promulgate the myth they are.

In the FAQ, wherever "Linux" is used as a generic descriptor it is in a
context where the presence of GNU utilities is irrelevant.  Example:
"there is no single, consistent way to install GnuPG on Linux systems."
The truth/validity of that statement is in no way dependent on whether
one's talking about a system that uses the GNU userland or the BSD userland.

In those cases where "Linux" is used to open a segment detailing how
GnuPG works on different distros, I use the distro's preferred full name
or shortened name:

Debian GNU/Linux
Ubuntu
OpenSUSE
Fedora
CentOS
RHEL
Slackware
Gentoo

> Note that GnuPG also builds against (and runs on) other operating
> systems that use GNU but do *not* use Linux, such as Debian's
> GNU/kFreeBSD and GNU/Hurd ports.

Yes, but they aren't mentioned in the FAQ.



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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Thomas Harning Jr.]

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Francesco Ariis  wrote:
> Hello Robert,
>
> On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
>> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>

GNU/Linux assumes a GNU userland. There exists some with it not as
default. Alpine in its minimal state uses busybox for much
functionality.

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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Mon 2017-10-09 22:06:17 -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".
>
> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
> proposal here for community feedback.
>
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

Is there a specific patch to consider?  I wouldn't agree to a blind
s~Linux~GNU/Linux~g replacement, but for specific instances it's likely
to be a quite reasonable request.

Not all instances of "Linux" are generically replaceable by GNU/Linux --
for instance, if we're talking specifically about the kernel, then it
should remain just Linux (e.g. "Android uses the Linux kernel").
However, if the GnuPG FAQ is talking about an operating system built
from the Linux kernel and the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc), then
"GNU/Linux" is not only the respectful term to use, it's the more
accurate and precise term.

Note that GnuPG also builds against (and runs on) other operating
systems that use GNU but do *not* use Linux, such as Debian's
GNU/kFreeBSD and GNU/Hurd ports.

   https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/
   https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/

The FAQ should be both accurate and precise.  We don't want users
thinking that GnuPG will run on Android just because Android is a Linux
operating system.

Regards,

--dkg


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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Michael Englehorn]

On 2017-10-09 21:06, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
replaced with "GNU/Linux".


I think it's redundant, besides, what if I were to replace all of the 
userland utilities with my own, or some other non-gnu userland? It would 
still be Linux, and Gnupg would continue working (provided the new 
userland could compile it). ;)


Also, I don't think "GNU/Linux" is a trademark of Linus. Linux is more 
generic and possibly more correct than GNU/Linux.


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|
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Re: FAQ and GNU

[Francesco Ariis]

Hello Robert,

On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 10:06:17PM -0400, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
> A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
> replaced with "GNU/Linux".

A request has been made by whom?

> I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
> that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
> proposal here for community feedback.
> 
> If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

I would say it is a fair change.

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FAQ and GNU

[Robert J. Hansen]

A request has been made that each instance of "Linux" in the FAQ be
replaced with "GNU/Linux".

I'm not inclined to make this change.  However, in order to make sure
that the FAQ reflects the community's wishes, I'm submitting the
proposal here for community feedback.

If anyone has strong feelings on it one way or another, chime in.

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