Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- [1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with some members of the Toronto group, AND added that There is a striking difference between discussing a project for SOME TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of the project. [2] Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: My dear Doutor, I do realise now that there is a gulf of a difference berween ORIGINAL ASSOCIATION with and INITIAL PLANNING of' a project. Muitissimo obrigado. == RESPONSE: Dear Prof Borges, It is possible that some time during your formation process(perhaps, in the seminary), you came across and later taught / preached the following: Thou Shalt Not bear False Witness. However, just from me a Romi for Romi Konkani chap, please accept this Thank You for doing what an unscrupulous politician would do best i.e. cleverly juxta-position and realign words in order to twist the meaning of the original sentence altogether. Perhaps, that is the advantage that Devanagri has over Romi. de nada ! jc You may have the final word ONLY if you do NOT bear False and Crooked witness again.
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- On 31 Mar 2010 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com quoted me: [1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with some members of the Toronto group, [2] SB asks: Will this quote from his post do?: 'Michael and I have been talking about this project for SOME TIME. The INITIAL PLAN was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise. So, it appears that the Canadian production will go. [3] SB asks further: 'Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he should be quoted VERBATIM every time?' And wrote: YESyou, Sebastian Borges (probably) misunderstood and (definitely) misrepresented my words. There is a striking difference between discussing a project for SOME TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of the project. My response: My dear Doutor, Thanks for the tutorial. I do realise now that there is a gulf of a difference berween ORIGINAL ASSOCIATION with and INITIAL PLANNING of' a project. Muitissimo obrigado. Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- JC says: IF you have verifiable proof that some (expected) home-grown ingredients entered into the Ladainha which was brought by the Portuguese into Goa, please provide that proof. No 'invented' proof just the facts, Sir! Let me reiterate what I have already said earlier. Even when every ingredient of a dish is brought from the market, we cannot say that the dish itself has been procured from the market; this holds true even when not even one small item has been added from the kitchen garden. Having said that, let me cite some differences between the 'ladainha' SUNG in Goa and the PRINTED prayers in Latin and Portuguese. Kyrie eleison occurs twice in the printed litany but is sung only once. In the Salve Rainha that we sing, we find the words e depois deste desterro NOSSA mostrai (Is this how it is in the Portuguese prayer? To my mind, it is not even grammatically proper Portuguese.) Towards the end of the same, we sing sejamos dignos das promessas DAS PROMESSAS de Cristo DA PROMESSA DE CRISTO Amen JESUS. (The capitalized words are extra.) The orasanvam (hymns) to saints, Our Lady etc. in Konkani certainly could not have been imported from Portugal. I am not sure whether the above will meet JC's requirements. But this is all I can do. Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- [1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with some members of the Toronto group, [2] SB asks: Will this quote from his post do?: 'Michael and I have been talking about this project for SOME TIME. The initial plan was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise. So, it appears that the Canadian production will go. [3] SB asks further: 'Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he should be quoted VERBATIM every time?' ANSWER: YESyou, Sebastian Borges (probably) misunderstood and (definitely) misrepresented my words. There is a striking difference between discussing a project for SOME TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of the project. It might be that you have a problem with comprehending the English language (possibly) because it is written in the Romi script. Perhaps, I should write it in the Devanagri script for you. Now we know (I hope) that: a: the Chinese brought Chinese cuisine to India, where it was modified by the addition of some Indian spices, b: the Portuguese brought the chorico or salsicha (sausage) to Goa where it was modified by the addition of spices, c: the Portuguese brought the ladainha to Goa, where it was sung (also) in Konkani I cannot be more clear than this about this topic. I'd say this in conclusion: d: If you can help this project - financially, please help. e: If you can help this project by not nit-picking at irrelevant side issues, please help by zipping up. f: I find it pointless discussing anything with a person who is challenged in the English language and who engages in arguing on the basis of his (own) misrepresentation of the facts. g: Accordingly, please have the last word on this exchange, and have a good day. jc
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- It was precisely to avoid such time-wasting, puerile and pediatric diatribe that I had defined the terms. Assuming that JC had honestly misunderstood my expression Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics and anticipating that, as is his wont, he would twist and turn my statements, I had only clarified what I meant by the following paras in my original post: The Goan Hindus have a rite called Satyanarayana Puja which is performed for almost all the reasons that the Catholics celebrate the Ladainha. In this puja too the prayers are sung. Therefore, as a substitute, we have a conglomeration of the Litany of Our Lady in Latin, Salve Rainha and Virgem Mae de Deus in Portuguese all set to music. (Are the different music scores for these prevalent anywhere else? I doubt it.) This is followed by the singing the hymns or 'orasanvam' in honour of the saints of the family (whose images are present in the oratory). I would be happy to learn of any parallels elsewhere. Have the definitions modified my original statement? My straight question to JC: Do you still contest my surmise that the entire format of 'ladainha' (elaborated above) as sung in Goa was not brought by the Portuguese but was put together in Goa itself? I have not requested him to fetch any U-tubes from the 15th century; just INFORM us that this format was prevalent in Portugal a couple of centuries ago so as to be available for export to Goa. If possible, he could also inform us whether it was exported to some other colony as well. Now that JC has claimed that he too was one of those who originally thought of of the project and was associated with some members of the Toronto group, I would be happy if someone directly connected with the Toronto recording would tell us whether they would restrict themselves to the recording of only the litany beginning with Kyrie eleison and ending with Agnus Dei or would they also include the SINGING of Salve Rainha and Virgem Mae de Deus as well. This will go a long way to clarify WHAT THEY MEAN by 'ladainha'. Another suggestion / request to the Toronto group: In years gone by, during the month of May, almost every ward in Goa used to celebrate the feast of the Holy Cross where the Latin litany was sung, but with some differences: (1) the musical accompaniment also included the drums, (2) the Salve Rainha was replaced with 'Regina Coeli laetare' (upto the feast of Ascension of Our Lord), (3) the whole rite ended with the singing of Exultemos com alegria to the accompaniment of drums. Nowadays these feasts have become very rare. Could these, if possible, be also recorded for posterity, especially when this rite has become almost extinct? When I visited my original post, I was shocked at the very first sentence therein. I am glad that JC did not pounce on that; he could have really made mincemeat of me. When that sentence is read with the rest of the para, the reader would understand that I was referring to 'ters' as a purely Goan rite which it is not. I was referring to the 'ladainha'; but, from the next sentence on, I digressed into the situation in Mumbai wrt the 'ters'. My profound apologies to any reader who might have got this impression. Sebastian Borges PS: I do not know whether Girgolina Sattam were prepared at Sokoilo Vaddo but they were certainly sold at Shimoniposaro next door. No re baba JC? Lembra nao?(;-) Sebastian Borges On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: re 1: please review the original sentence: Did it say entire ladainha format? Did the Borges post say that? Why modify the statement which was challenged without acknowledging the chip on one's shoulder? re 3: so the ladainha sung by Goans ...was home grown? really? The next thing I will hear is that the Gregorian chant was also home grown in 'Sokoilo Vaddo' in Velim! What prejudicial nonsense is this? jc ps: I am trying to locate Youtube recordings made before 1498 - to satisfy the Borges question infra. I have been told that some antique recordings exist. But what is the use if cybercafe's do not allow access to such media? (;-) Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: 1: I would request JC to inform us whether the entire 'ladainha' format, as SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at least a couple of centuries ago. 2: If yes, then we can be certain that it was brought to Goa by the Portuguese. 3: Else, I shall have to stick to my original statement, it would be a fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: [1] My straight question to JC: Do you still contest my surmise that the entire format of 'ladainha' (elaborated above) as sung in Goa was not brought by the Portuguese but was put together in Goa itself? [2] Now that JC has claimed that he too was one of those who originally thought of of the project and was associated with some members of the Toronto group, Dear Prof Borges, wrt # 1: Now that you have brought in the phrase entire format into the sentence, my answer to that question is: I do not know. Whenever something is brought from somewhere and transplanted somewhere else, some 'local' flavouring does (is expected to) take place. e.g. food. A classical example is the Mughlai and (Indian) Chinese cooking. It would be a fallacy for me to pronounce on Day 1 that It is a fallacy to state that 'Chinese cooking' was brought to India by the Chinese .and then argue with the additional phrase entire format of Chinese cooking! IF you have verifiable proof that some (expected) home-grown ingredients entered into the Ladainha which was brought by the Portuguese into Goa, please provide that proof. No 'invented' proof just the facts, Sir! wrt # 2: Please refrain from misrepresenting sentences written in simple English. You are free to make your ghuspott in Konkani esp Devanagri Konkani. But please do NOT reinvent my statements. With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was one of those who originally thought of of the project and was associated with some members of the Toronto group, Once again: You may re-invent your own words to try win arguments, but please - do not re-invent my words and in doing so, misrepresent what I have stated. Por favor, não esqueça. jc
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
--- Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php --- JC asks: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was one of those who originally thought of of the project and was associated with some members of the Toronto group, Will this quote from his post do? Michael and I have been talking about this project for some time. The initial plan was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise. So, it appears that the Canadian production will go. Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he should be quoted VERBATIM every time? Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
It appears that JC has confused the meaning of my statement Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics with that of the Portuguese word ladainha per se. Therefore, in order to avoid further confusion, let me define some terms, FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DISCUSSION. This stipulation, I feel, is necessary to obviate these definitions being generalized, as is sought to be done by vested interests wrt the definition of the word 'Konkani' in the Official Language Act. 1. littany = the Litany of Our Lady which in Latin begins with Kyrie eleison and ends with Agnus Dei.. miserere nobis 2. rosary = five decades of the Rosary interspersed with the five mysteries relevant for the day. 3. 'ters' = the whole prayer consisting of the Sotmanitam (Credo), the rosary, Xoronn-yetam and the litany (in Latin or Konkani) in that order and ending with rozar. 4. 'ladainha' = the entire rite IN SONG beginning with the litany (in Latin), Salve Rainha (in Portuguese), Virgem Mae de Deus (in Portuguese), Hymns to Saints etc. (in Konkani / Portuguese / Latin) and ending with rozar. This is also the meaning, I believe, in which the word has been used thus far in this thread. Some prayers are common to both ters and ladainha. But there are important differences: (a) The 'ters' is largely RECITED whereas the 'ladainha', except for the final rozar, is SUNG. (b) Credo or Sotmanitam, with which 'ters' begins, is not found anywhere in 'ladainha'. (c) 'Virgem Mae de Deus' and the Hymns are found in the 'ladainha' but not in 'ters'. (d) Xoronn-yetam is the Konkani translation of the Portuguese 'Salve Rainha'. But its position wrt the litany differs: in 'ters' it precedes litany whereas in 'ladainha', 'Salve Rainha' follows the litany. All the prayers constituting the 'ladainha' were certainly available as separate entities, but my contention is that their arrangement in a unique FORMAT called 'ladainha' was done in Goa. Just because all the constituent parts were available in - and brought from - Portugal, we cannot claim that the final product was also imported from there. When all the ingredients of a dish are purchased from the market, do we do say that the dish itself was brought from the market? JC has sent some links. I could open the first one which only gives the history of the litany and the explanation of some selected terms. This in no way contradicts my statement. Being in a cybercafe, I could not open the youtube links. But do they contain the entire 'ladainha' format as sung in Goa? To simplify the matter, I would request JC to inform us whether the entire 'ladainha' format, as SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at least a couple of centuries ago. If yes, then we can be certain that it was brought to Goa by the Portuguese. Else, I shall have to stick to my original statement, it would be a fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought by the Portuguese. They could not have brought it because it was not available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that were at hand! Sincerely, Sebastian Borges On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: That brings me to this point which I read a couple of minutes ago: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: it would be a fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought by the Portuguese. They could not have brought it because it was not available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that were at hand! Trust the following might be useful. It is posted without comment or verification. Sincerely jc Amanha = Time to refocus on other matters. Enough of zuzz on GN for March . The Origin of the Ladainha (Origem das ladainhas) http://www.npdbrasil.com.br/religiao/rel_meditar_012.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtp7oldyDpUfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM4VwjTOp5Efeature=related Sebastian Borges Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
I haven't been following this thread too carefully but when I read the last post I thought of Alfred Rose's song about the 'ladainha' in Konkani and started to google. The following post of Eugene Correa is one of the entries that cropped up and you can follow up if you feel like. http://www.mail-archive.com/goa...@goanet.org/msg05342.html -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal, Moira, Bardez, Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com or ypinto...@yahoo.co.in P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
re 1: please review the original sentence: Did it say entire ladainha format? Did the Borges post say that? Why modify the statement which was challenged without acknowledging the chip on one's shoulder? re 3: so the ladainha sung by Goans ...was home grown? really? The next thing I will hear is that the Gregorian chant was also home grown in 'Sokoilo Vaddo' in Velim! What prejudicial nonsense is this? jc ps: I am trying to locate Youtube recordings made before 1498 - to satisfy the Borges question infra. I have been told that some antique recordings exist. But what is the use if cybercafe's do not allow access to such media? (;-) Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: 1: I would request JC to inform us whether the entire 'ladainha' format, as SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at least a couple of centuries ago. 2: If yes, then we can be certain that it was brought to Goa by the Portuguese. 3: Else, I shall have to stick to my original statement, it would be a fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought by the Portuguese
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
Dear Sir I am Bento F. Rodrigues. Working in K.S.A. I was suprise to see you mail ,about Ladainha.If you have the text.Please can you mail it. Both in konkani and latin.thank very much.and god bless you From Bento F.Rodrigues _ What does Budget 2010 mean for you? Catch all the latest news, updates and analysis on MSN Budget Special http://news.in.msn.com/moneyspecial/budget2010
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
I am truly delighted to know that my very good friend and debating opponent (during college days in Goa) Michael Pinto has embarked on this project from the very cold climes of Winnipeg, Canada. For those who may wish to know, Michael (aka Mingloo) was my mentor in the field of debating. Those days, the debating field had some very strong contenders including Michael Pinto, Pandurang Ginde, Yadunath Joshi and Santosh Lad. And then there were the impostors e.g. Wilfred Mesquita and Jawaharlal Henriques. No prizes for guessing that Michael and yours truly, wiped out the opposition. The impostors, as we had predicted, joined (successfully or otherwise) the field of politics. BTW: If anyone has any contact with Pandurang Ginde, would you please advise? It would be nice for Michael and me to renew contact. Michael and I have been talking about this project for some time. The initial plan was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise. So, it appears that the Canadian production will go. At least, there will be none of this divisive nonsense of What is Konkani, Devanagri/Antruzi/Romi etc etc. It is best to leave that nonsense to the weirdos. That brings me to this point which I read a couple of minutes ago: Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: it would be a fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought by the Portuguese. They could not have brought it because it was not available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that were at hand! Trust the following might be useful. It is posted without comment or verification. Sincerely jc Amanha = Time to refocus on other matters. Enough of zuzz on GN for March . The Origin of the Ladainha (Origem das ladainhas) http://www.npdbrasil.com.br/religiao/rel_meditar_012.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtp7oldyDpUfeature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM4VwjTOp5Efeature=related
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto
On 28 March 2010 20:29, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: For those who may wish to know, Michael (aka Mingloo) was my mentor in the field of debating Oh my god, how did he do such a bad job then? :-) FN
