Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
I just noticed these unbiased responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks like he has different levels or standards of corruption and crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the taxpayer's money. But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it measure up? I for one would really like to know what his unbiased threshold for corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese system. It also appears that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese. Cheers, Santosh On Monday, April 7, 2014 10:46 AM, roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com wrote: Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one). What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar? Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light. Roland. Roland Francis wrote: Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another Lotlecar go unanswered. Roland
Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
I just noticed these unbiased responses from Roland on Goanet. Looks like he has different levels or standards of corruption and crookedness in his unbiased mind. Illegal profiteering from massive fraud and forgery does not reach the threshold if it happens during the Portuguese rule. The same for theft of Rs. 35 lakhs from the taxpayer's money. But how about torture and murder in police custody, and falsification of the autopsy report by the government? What do you think? Would it measure up? I for one would really like to know what his unbiased threshold for corruption and crookedness is in the Portuguese system. It also appears that names of Portuguese public officials are special. They get sullied if reported by the press in connection with allegations of public corruption. Perhaps, sanctification and worship of the Portuguese administrators does not amount to being pro-Portuguese. Cheers, Santosh On Monday, April 7, 2014 10:46 AM, roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com wrote: Actually dear doctor your examples of criminal acts of inflated rice manifests are so sketchy that even I, once misty eyed holiday going Goan would hesitate to tell this to my own brother (if I had one). What will be your next example if I push you for a worse case? Over- manifesting imported Japanese toys coming into Goa for Christmas, or perhaps busting the blockade by providing Indian customs officials State 555 cigarettes and Black Label scotch to look the other way while beef and vegetables came in from Belgaum and Karwar? Sad you have to scrape the bottom of the law-breaking barrel to show up the Portuguese in a poor light. Roland. Roland Francis wrote: Over to you Senhor Gabriel de Figuereido. Don't let this sully against Senhor Ismail Gracias another Lotlecar go unanswered. Roland
Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa. So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese system from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed. Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing of rice manifests with over-inflated figures. So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end? For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist. Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes. The second corruption scandal was called the Bogus Rice Deal. It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always. That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them. Cheers, Santosh On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com wrote: Jose and Santosh babs, JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done. WHAT SYSTEM Santosh? A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal, illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity. Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one expresses incredulity like you have done. You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief. Roland. Sent from Samsung Mobile Original message From: Jose Colaco cola...@gmail.com Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com,Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Cc: roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks? On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it? COMMENT: While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of. Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is being asked to prove/disprove the negative. Such techniques are possibly brilliant in Debates, Political skirmishes and perhaps in the Court of Public Opinion; NOT in any reasonable court. ps: it is my understanding that the Vast Majority of administrators and policemen in Portuguese Goans were Goans. Is the suggestion being made here that A SYSTEM which enabled Goans to live without locking their front doors, actually allowed Corruption in public administration to flourish? Might be a good idea to prove it. jc
Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
Dear Roland, What my dear Santoshbab has proved, beyond a scintilla of doubt, is that Goa under the Portuguese was just as corrupt as Goa under the present dispensation. Would you not agree? Would you not also agree that one had to bribe one's way for every little thing unlike now. As far as I am concerned, I am absolutely convinced. Now ...I plan to research a new topic (in the spirit of Easter): The Resurrection of the Saligao tower. best jc On 5 April 2014 17:12, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: I express incredulity based on actual reports that I have read in contemporaneous sources about corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese administration. It is not based on third person hearsay or from the misty nostalgic childhood memories of summer holidays in Goa. So as promised, I provide below examples of corruption and crookedness in the Portuguese system from published sources documented in real time as the events were unfolding. I will provide only two examples for now with names of three high ranking public officials. I will provide more examples later, if needed. Both examples I give below have to do with the purchase and sale of Goa's staple food - rice. Both were serious scandals by any standard. The first one was particularly massive, and took place in 1936. It involved hundreds of Goan landlords and public officials, including district officers who were retired Portuguese military men, as well as the members of the Rice Board appointed by the Governor-General. Two of the biggest land owners in Salcete were implicated and charged with criminal offenses. One report indicated that over 250 people were charged with fraud, and this was merely the beginning. These corrupt private businessmen and government servants had forged official documents (rice manifests) on a massive scale and violated the protectionist and price control laws enacted by the government. The contemporaneous news report said that this organized fraud network in Goa had created a new manufacturing industry overnight - the wholesale manufacturing of rice manifests with over-inflated figures. So what happened to these hundreds of crooked and corrupt Portuguese administrators and citizens of Portuguese Goa in the end? For the most part, nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist. Only the board was replaced by a new board, and some of the district officers went back to their retired military life. The Governor-General went back to Lisbon and another took his place. In fact, one Craveiro Lopes was replaced by another Craveiro Lopes. That is to say, Major Higino Craveiro Lopes took the musical chair of General Craveiro Lopes. The second corruption scandal was called the Bogus Rice Deal. It took place in 1954-55. It cost the Goan exchequer Rs. 35 lakhs. The Lisbon government suspected three high ranking Portuguese officials in Goa to be the culprits behind it - the Chief of the Cabinet, Captain Carmo Ferreira, the Police Chief, Captain Romba and another official named Ismail Gracias. Again, nobody took any action against these individuals. Justice, Goan style as always. That was the Portuguese system in Goa. If you need more examples of crookedness and corruption from this system I would be happy to provide them. Cheers, Santosh On Friday, April 4, 2014 12:31 PM, roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com wrote: Jose and Santosh babs, JC's undermentioned post takes care of my reply in a better manner than I could have done. WHAT SYSTEM Santosh? A system where honesty, clean public administration, speedy justice, and the economic good of the people within the means available, trumped personal, illegal, pecuniary gain perpetrated in mega doses and without impunity. Santoshbab, there are many things that have to be visualized and experienced like in your scientific world in order to be believed. Otherwise one expresses incredulity like you have done. You are pessimistic about Portuguese administration, not having seen it or experienced it. To that extent I can excuse your disbelief. Roland. Sent from Samsung Mobile Original message From: Jose Colaco cola...@gmail.com Date: 04-04-2014 8:09 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com,Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Cc: roland.francis roland.fran...@ymail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Incubator For Political Crooks? On Apr 4, 2014, at 1:12 AM, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: How is Roland sure that there were no crooks in Portuguese administration, and when? What system did not allow it? COMMENT: While Roland does the needful to answer Santoshbab's question, I believe it would help IF Santoshbab identified at least a couple of the crooks from the Portuguese administration that he knows of. Otherwise, at this moment, it appears as though Roland is
Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: Incubator For Political Crooks?
Santosh Helekar:I like to consult contemporary or historical writings for facts about our history. I will retrieve from what I have read in the past the names and/or designations of public officials who were reported to be corrupt and crooked in the Portuguese administration when I have some free time later. jc: Excellent step == Santosh Helekar:: But asking to substantiate a factual statement by Roland is not asking to prove a negative. All he has to do is tell us where he got that factual information from. jc: Asking Roland to provide factual information about the absence of corruption during the Portuguese regime (esp the last few decades of their regime) in Goa = asking him to prove the negative. == Santosh Helekar:: Given the fact that there was no freedom of the press in Goa during the Portuguese rule, most of the claims made by lay people are hearsay, and for the most part, wrong. jc: This is a specious method of arguing a point. There was ALL kinds of information about Goa available in Bombay, some accurate some invented. Did any information of civil service corruption turn up in Bombay? Did any information of that corruption turn up on Dec 20, 1961 or thereafter? The civil service was mainly Goan. They did not go anywhere. Anybody complained about corruption involving those Goan civil servants? Some might still be alive. Check with them na! BTW: I wonder if my reference to 'Goans' was construed appropriately. == Santosh Helekar: As for Josebab's understanding below, we know very well that in the post-Portuguese Goa many of the administrative officials who are known to be crooked and corrupt are also Goans, jc: Is it or Is it not because the SYSTEM (that Roland was referring to) did not tolerate corruption ? I am not really up to date with the events of 2014. Personally, I have no evidence at hand to state that any officials are corrupt in 2014. But, for now, I will accept Santoshbab's view on matters as they exist in 2014. He may wish to opine IF the present SYSTEM tolerates corruption. === Santosh Helekar: My observation has been that corruption and crookedness does not have anything do with education, race or religion. jc: I almost agree. My belief is that it was the SYSTEM which played an important positive or negative role...along with the Culture of Zhalacch Pahije and Chalta hai. jc
