Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Russ Cox]

Although this conversation started out on the wrong foot, it did end up
being a valuable discussion. If you haven't seen the posts yet, the
conversation continued on /r/golang. I want to update this thread to point
at my latest post there, proposing that the Googlers who are moderators all
step back, leaving dgryski to establish a new set of moderators drawn from
the active users there. If you want to discuss that proposal, please do it
on the Reddit post, not here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/5h87u6/proposal_dgryski_for_top_mod/

Thanks.
Russ

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

There is also HN currently in existence, as much as I despise the interface.

But I would like to warn against building a go-specific (or only adopted by
go) solution to this; the cross-pollination with other communities is a
specific advantage of reddit that isn't just a technical restriction that
can be re-implemented.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 7:27 AM,  wrote:

> I don't weigh in often because the Go team has been very good about
> vetting their options before executing them. I want to highlight that
> because that is what I feel Brad is doing here. I do not think they are
> going nuclear and pulling the trigger. I appreciate that we are consider
> the ethics involved with this issue.
>
> With that being said, I do think we need a viable alternative for a source
> of news whether hosted by the go team or unofficial. I do not want to
> continue to use Reddit even though I was an avid user.
>
> I do not see an issue with parking the subreddit as there are several
> reasons not to delete it.
>
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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[austin]

I don't weigh in often because the Go team has been very good about vetting 
their options before executing them. I want to highlight that because that is 
what I feel Brad is doing here. I do not think they are going nuclear and 
pulling the trigger. I appreciate that we are consider the ethics involved with 
this issue.

With that being said, I do think we need a viable alternative for a source of 
news whether hosted by the go team or unofficial. I do not want to continue to 
use Reddit even though I was an avid user. 

I do not see an issue with parking the subreddit as there are several reasons 
not to delete it.

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Craig]

I took the same interpretation ("rankist", not sexist). Still an ad hominem.
On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 9:32 AM Andy Balholm  wrote:

> I took the usage of “men” in that comment to be gender-neutral. I read it
> as “Are you rankist?", not as “Are you sexist or rankist?”
>
> (I don’t know if rankist is a word, but I mean someone who discriminates
> on the basis of rank.)
>
> Andy
>
> On Nov 27, 2016, at 6:43 PM, vac...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I would just like to point out what a genuinely vile response this is.
> Your vague and menacing implication is that Florian is somehow a sexist
> because he disagrees with you is beneath you, Dave, and you should
> apologise.
>
>
> On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 6:26:40 PM UTC+13, Dave Cheney wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Florian Weimer 
> wrote:
> > * Brad Fitzpatrick:
> >
> >> In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see
> >> dozen news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang subreddit.
> >>
> >> That is so beyond unethical and immature,
> >
> > Was it immature because they didn't make any money out of it, at least
> > not directly?  Modifying user-generated content without informed
> > consent is standard business practice.  You must be aware of that.
> > (Many people who read this will see totally misleading ads next to
> > this post, for instance, and I obviously never agreed to that.)
> >
> > It was a bad prank for sure.  But it was just a prank.
>
> Do you normalise the behaviour of all men, or only those at the C level?
>
> >
> > --
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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Andy Balholm]

I took the usage of “men” in that comment to be gender-neutral. I read it as 
“Are you rankist?", not as “Are you sexist or rankist?”

(I don’t know if rankist is a word, but I mean someone who discriminates on the 
basis of rank.)

Andy

> On Nov 27, 2016, at 6:43 PM, vac...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> I would just like to point out what a genuinely vile response this is. Your 
> vague and menacing implication is that Florian is somehow a sexist because he 
> disagrees with you is beneath you, Dave, and you should apologise. 
> 
> 
> On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 6:26:40 PM UTC+13, Dave Cheney wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Florian Weimer  > wrote: 
> > * Brad Fitzpatrick: 
> > 
> >> In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see 
> >> dozen news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang subreddit. 
> >> 
> >> That is so beyond unethical and immature, 
> > 
> > Was it immature because they didn't make any money out of it, at least 
> > not directly?  Modifying user-generated content without informed 
> > consent is standard business practice.  You must be aware of that. 
> > (Many people who read this will see totally misleading ads next to 
> > this post, for instance, and I obviously never agreed to that.) 
> > 
> > It was a bad prank for sure.  But it was just a prank. 
> 
> Do you normalise the behaviour of all men, or only those at the C level? 
> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
> > Google Groups "golang-nuts" group. 
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> > . 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
> > golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com . 
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> > . 
> 
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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[as . utf8]

I don't use the site, nor understand how any immediate conflicts of interest 
can manifest based on the CEO's actions that justify removing the subreddit or 
locking it down.

Why not add a community to the official golang.org site and let the subreddit 
die of natural causes? It would be a favorable outcome if Reddit ever 
disappeared in the future to the hand of some other site: no content would need 
to be moved and the language's community posts would be self-contained.

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Micky]

I don't think people realize the gravity of the situation, of what Brad
pointed out.

If I said something (which in reality I never said) and if someone responds
back to me in a way (which they never did), it could have serious
implications on the parties conversing on a topic -- particularly when the
nature of conversation is, software!

(I know people will say they are other mediums of communication but think
of security issues, etc.)

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:53 AM, Brad Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see
> dozen news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang subreddit.
>
> That is so beyond unethical and immature, I no longer want anything to do
> with that site. I will be deleting my account on Reddit after backing up my
> content, and I will no longer be a moderator of /r/golang.
>
> If other moderators of /r/golang feel strongly that it should remain, I
> suppose you're welcome to keep it going.
>
> But if the other moderators want to abandon it and focus our conversation
> elsewhere (or build a replacement), I'm happy to just delete /r/golang.
>
> Opinions?
>
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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[idigix]

So CEO spends an hour modifying some comments that were personally insulting 
him, yes pretty bad, but makes no sense to conclude site is bullshit because of 
that. It is not like he even hid the fact, just admitted it for no reason. 
Still bad, but could be a lot lot lot worse.

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Michael Christenson II]

Proof of the vibrancy of the community can be partially established by how many 
posts you received on this post, versus the Reddit thread. While this post is 
one of the most responded to posts on this user group of late, the comments on 
the Reddit thread dwarf it by far. Consider the impact of that in your 
decisions please.

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Tom Cameron]

This is the most ridiculous, short sighted, and I'll advised thing I've seen 
suggested on this list for a while.

Are we also going to remove every article written about go in a newspaper, 
magazine, or blog because editors and journalists did something idiotic? 
Because if that's the case, we're going to have to do a lot of cleanup. And 
we're basically going to have to burn hackernews to the ground (not a bad idea, 
but I'd still have a problem with it).

If you don't support what happens on Reddit (this is far from their first 
scandal) then don't use it. That's the best part of freedom of choice. But I 
don't see too many alternative forums for people to use, so you're going to 
have to come up with something better than mailing lists and news groups before 
pulling the plug.

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[erick . romero . dev]

The depressing unintended consequence of this is that a rift has been created 
between community leaders and r/golang users (Who happened to see the post). 

I recently entered r/golang because I already used a couple other subreddits 
that perform a function similar to an RSS feed. Simple content aggregation. But 
I was already using the platform so r/golang became a valuable entry point. 
Removing this entry point, at the very least, seems shortsighted. 

Coming back to the riff: The unintended consequence of actions such as 
proposing the removal of the subreddit, outside of the subreddit, no less. Is 
that you entrench people in their points. Reddit people see this as a personal 
action against them, they come retaliate here. People here feel attacked, they 
entrench themselves in their views. Essentially this creates an "Us vs Them" 
mentality. 

As community leaders you must try to be aware of the impact your words will 
have on said community. I am still a beginner. r/golang was my entry point but 
the likely logical evolution would've likely put me either here or in the 
Google Group eventually as I got more comfortable with the language. Now, this 
seems less probable. Not because I think the discussion here is less, or more 
valuable, but because when I was in reddit and then "We faced destruction! 
Together!" against "The Go team members who wanted to destroy us!", this 
creates a very ugly bias. 

Fragmentation of a community, however unintended, should be something that 
leadership should very consciously try to avoid. Rooting people in their 
communities, effectively hamstringing horizontal mobility between platforms due 
to bias is a serious problem. 

Even if you see the reddit community as an inferior option compared to the 
others, it's important realize that it serves a purpose. As leaders you must 
try to be more magnanimous and practice tolerance. In the end we're all 
participating in one way or another because we love the language, and want to 
learn and see more. 

Additional Resource:
HackerNews is also talking about this: 
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13036890

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[jamesmcminn]

What a knee-jerk reaction. An admin does one stupid thing so it's suddenly time 
to abandon one of the most popular websites in the world?

Honestly, I don't think the subreddit should ever have been "official". No one 
expects anything on reddit to be an official support channel. It wasn't created 
as one - instead it was slowly taken over by members of the Go team and turned 
into one.

Reading this thread, there's clearly contempt for /r/golang from the Go team 
and high-profile members of the community, and that's really sad to see, 
because it shows contempt for a large part of the Go community that use it.

The current set of moderators do the job of moderating it, but nothing more - 
it's just an annoying distraction for them. /r/Golang has its issues, but it's 
very possible for a programming language subreddit to foster a great community, 
and plenty of them do. However, that takes time and effort on the part of the 
moderation team, which frankly I don't think the current team is able to 
provide.

Hand the subreddit over to the community - everyone will be happier. A reddit 
admin edited extremely insulting posts aimed directly at him and calling him a 
paeodphile is not a reason to delete /r/golang, it's simply a bad excuse. 

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[dwin]

The community makes these decisons, not the Mods otherwise what makes you 
different than the CEO. 

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[hrj . nzym]

Laughable, coming from a guy who has turned Livejournal into a Russian 
Intelligence collection tool.

Shut the fuck up already

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Matt Proud]

While I find Reddit and the conduct on/around it to be vile and nonredeemable, 
/r/golang is a nice addition to the community whose positives have generally 
outweighed the negatives.  Killing it unnecessarily fragments the Go community 
at-large — especially if no good alternative/transition can be offered.  
Apropos: We don't need that *now* after several acrimonious outbursts of 
immaturity in the past few weeks hurt collective morale.

Both golang-nuts and /r/golang serve two distinct purposes.  I have no problem 
with them co-existing.  Please don't suggest Slack.  The moves toward that have 
caused enough personal annoyance.

That's my _foif Rappen_ for whatever its worth.

- Matt

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Tieson Molly]

I personally like the /r/golang  subreddit for finding new projects or blog 
posts related to Go.   I prefer Google groups for more discussion.

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Harrison Kelly]

Individually, I get all my Go news (including this) through /r/golang so please 
don't. 

Strategically, I think deleting it does more harm than good.

I get that sometimes principles should trump practicality, but this specific 
problem seems very minor. By keeping it open, we aren't confining the CEO's 
actions. But we are [re]inviting 25,000+ people to participate in the Go 
community, which is a heck of a limb to cut off on principle. 

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Christoph Berger]

Deleting /r/golang means destroying a very active community.
Deleting /r/golang means deleting years of helpful answers, fruitful 
discussions, and useful links. 
Deleting /r/golang means thousands of seach engine results becoming stale.
Deleting /r/golang means making Go less visible to the world.

Please don't.

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Peter Bourgon]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Brad Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see dozen
> news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang subreddit.

That would be a dramatic overreaction, and a real shame.


> That is so beyond unethical and immature, I no longer want anything to do
> with that site. I will be deleting my account on Reddit after backing up my
> content, and I will no longer be a moderator of /r/golang.
>
> If other moderators of /r/golang feel strongly that it should remain, I
> suppose you're welcome to keep it going.
>
> But if the other moderators want to abandon it and focus our conversation
> elsewhere (or build a replacement), I'm happy to just delete /r/golang.
>
> Opinions?
>
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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Jonathan Fraser]

I think one of the reasons that the editing of posts by /u/spez is considered 
such a betrayal is that we view these forums as owned by the contributors and 
the community at large. It's seen as an invasion that he has such an authority 
(of course he did but we like to imagine he doesn't). However, this 
expectation, that power won't be used to further personal vendettas, applies 
just as much to the moderators of /r/golang and the Go team as it does to the 
reddit admins. To me, the decision to throw away a community of some 25 
thousand people on a whim seems to be just as big a betrayal of trust. To 
betray the golang community in such a way, in order to protest the reddit 
admins betrayal of the reddit community as a whole seems a bit hypocritical.

Jon

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[James Aguilar]

Another vote for temperance here. The CEO making a scumbag move that affected a 
tiny handful of posts seems barely related to deleting a subreddit. If some 
folks don't want to support Reddit, that seems reasonable. It seems less 
reasonable to disrupt a community without that community's consent. 

At least, don't make the decision without waiting for reasonable feedback after 
the holiday. 

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Re: [go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Robert Melton]

I think it is worth taking a moments pause and remember that community
is over 25,000+ gophers.  Those are just subscribed users, excludes
just people passing through or who don't formally subscribe (RSS or
other means).


I absolutely agree you shouldn't have to maintain something you have a
moral stance against.  Additionally if the core Go team thinks it
shouldn't be an official place, by all means, eject it form the go
community space.


That said, the idea of intentionally squatting on a namespace to kill
off a community of 25,000+ gophers feels -- gross.  It feels vindictive
not to the CEO of Reddit, but to the 25,000 gophers.


Additional, I suspect it will be ineffective.  A new subreddit will
popup and rebuild /r/golang2 or /r/goproglang or whatever.  If you want
to stop maintaining it -- at least at this point you could hand it off
to some experienced reddit users who could continue to try to make it a
worthwhile place and show respect (even in disagreement) to those
gophers who happen to like a place that you may not.
 







On Thu, Nov 24, 2016, at 18:53, Brad Fitzpatrick wrote:

> In light of the CEO of Reddit admitting to editing user comments (see
> dozen news stories today), I propose we delete the /r/golang
> subreddit.
> 

> That is so beyond unethical and immature, I no longer want anything to
> do with that site. I will be deleting my account on Reddit after
> backing up my content, and I will no longer be a moderator of
> /r/golang.
> 

> If other moderators of /r/golang feel strongly that it should remain,
> I suppose you're welcome to keep it going.
> 

> But if the other moderators want to abandon it and focus our
> conversation elsewhere (or build a replacement), I'm happy to just
> delete /r/golang.
> 

> Opinions?

> 

> 



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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Florin Pățan]

Rather than going with the nuclear option, imho, I'd be happy to continue 
running it if the Go team backs out of it and / ir other moderators. I'll make 
it clear it's unofficial and so on.

Maybe we should consider upgrading golang.org to a more useful website? 
Includes a list of meetups, maybe even suggest it based on geoip, add some more 
blog posts, be it from the team or guest posts, show cases from the community, 
success stories and so on?

We have a forum, https://forum.golangbridge.org, which can be use to replace 
the sub-reddit as well as a Slack team and an IRC channel. Make them more 
visibile on golang.org and encourage people to use any of them. 

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[go-nuts] Deleting the /r/golang subreddit

[Will Jessop]

Perhaps it would be fairer to ask this question in /r/golang instead?

Personally I like getting my Go (and Ruby, climbing, StarCitizen, 
EliteDangerous, VR and robotics) news there. I'm no fan of Reddit overall, but 
for me, and I suspect a number of the other people who use the sub, it works 
well for what we use it for.

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