Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Eric S. Raymond]

'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts :
> I don't want to think about people objecting to anti-racist fundraising,
> and yet, here we are.

It's not "anti-racist fundraising" that anybody objects to. It's
politically loaded messaging.

> We all sometimes have to think about things we would rather not think about.

Quite. And we can do it off-list.
-- 
http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond


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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jon Reiter]

I'll say that my main suggestion is that such links only show in certain
regions.  For example, youtube and google filter all kinds of stuff
depending on where you are.

Assuming American-style free speech exists everywhere go is used is not
good for anybody.  This link sits atop all the godoc.org
reference materials used by developers in countries where I am quite sure
it is well out of bounds.  I'm not going to comment further.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:35 AM Thomas Bushnell, BSG 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 9:27 AM 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>
>>> Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police
>>> Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or
>>> risk being deported:
>>> https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408
>>> Is that concrete enough?
>>>
>>
> You should probably take that into account when deciding on your actions.
> I don't see how it means you have acquired a right to control other
> people's actions, including those who run golang.org.
>
> Thomas
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Ian Lance Taylor]

I would like to again remind everyone to be respectful and charitable
in this discussion.  Also, please ask yourself whether you really need
to keep this thread going.  Consider letting someone else have the
last word, and being the more generous person and walking away.
Thanks.

Ian

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 9:27 AM 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <
golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>
>> Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police
>> Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or
>> risk being deported:
>> https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408
>> Is that concrete enough?
>>
>
You should probably take that into account when deciding on your actions. I
don't see how it means you have acquired a right to control other people's
actions, including those who run golang.org.

Thomas

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:30 PM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)"
> or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.   This banner
> differs only in degree of risk.  It increases the risk of a problem by some
> non-0 amount.
>
> This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments.  It's about
> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
>

I don't want to think about people objecting to anti-racist fundraising,
and yet, here we are.

We all sometimes have to think about things we would rather not think about.

Thomas

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jon Reiter]

Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police
Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or
risk being deported:
https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408
Is that concrete enough?  That is a public post from an official
government account from 2018 that is quite clear.

I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on
my screen while giving a public talk.  I do not want any such banners
anywhere near any documentation I might send to a colleague or client.  I
want 0 risk of these things happening.  I do not think it is fair to equate
this to orcs and wizards.


On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:55 PM Axel Wagner 
wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>
>> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)"
>> or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.
>>
>
> It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and
> intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.
> Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real
> precedence with a different imagined problem?
>
>
>> This banner differs only in degree of risk.
>>
>
> Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by
> a needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of
> stabbing. But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd
> rightly point out that that's an imagined problem.
>
>
>> It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.
>>
>
> Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be weighed
> against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of people of
> color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to their
> lives.
> To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual
> amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.
>
> This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about
>> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
>>
>
> It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that
> was brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is
> about for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting
> that as well.
>
> As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm
>> concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed
>> concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously
>> (regardless of outcome).
>>
>
> I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or
> flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.
>
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you
>>> have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a
>>> page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have
>>> some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.
>>>
>>> Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
>>> believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
>>> around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws
>>> I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about
>>> real.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>>
 I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a
 significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many
 major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a
 presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source
 or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply
 with them.

 I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to
 dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is
 an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct
 isn't the primary concern.

 On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner <
 axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve
> as a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the 
> police.
> Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for
> a foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live
> in the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by 
> any
> judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project 
> page
> is the least of your worries.
>
> Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of
> conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood
> that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the 

Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jon Reiter]

I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a significant
number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many major cities
around a world where a banner like this appearing during a presentation or
training session could cause problems.  I am not the source or enforcer of
such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply with them.

I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to
dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is
an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct
isn't the primary concern.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner 
wrote:

> I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a
> testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
> Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
> foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
> the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
> judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
> is the least of your worries.
>
> Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct
> as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just
> pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is
> pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>
>> Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
>> events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
>> that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
>> countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
>> 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
>> of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
>> community.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
>> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
>>> are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
>>> Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
>>> action and what doesn't varies between people.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>>> > Sam Whited :
>>> > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
>>> > > It
>>> > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>>> >
>>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
>>> > belong.
>>> >
>>> > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
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>>> an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jon Reiter]

It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)"
or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.   This banner
differs only in degree of risk.  It increases the risk of a problem by some
non-0 amount.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments.  It's about
not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.

As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm
concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed
concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously
(regardless of outcome).

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner 
wrote:

> Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have
> precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page
> for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some
> real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.
>
> Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
> believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
> around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws
> I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about
> real.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a
>> significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many
>> major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a
>> presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source
>> or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply
>> with them.
>>
>> I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to
>> dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is
>> an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct
>> isn't the primary concern.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner <
>> axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as
>>> a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
>>> Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
>>> foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
>>> the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
>>> judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
>>> is the least of your worries.
>>>
>>> Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct
>>> as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just
>>> pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is
>>> pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>>
 Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
 events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
 that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
 countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
 of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
 community.

 On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
 golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
> are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
> Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
> action and what doesn't varies between people.
>
> On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > Sam Whited :
> > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
> > > It
> > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
> >
> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
> > belong.
> >
> > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
>
>
>
> --
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> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io
> .
>
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

I support the EJI 100%. That was not the white person or Ivory tower I was 
referring to. As a person living with burned out and destroyed buildings on all 
sides in one of the most violent cities in the US, I am too close to this issue 
and will no longer comment. I only ask for compassion. 

> On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:12 AM, Nathan Fisher  wrote:
> 
> 
> Who knew a 50px high desktop only banner was such a usability obstacle.
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:00 PM 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts 
>>  wrote:
>> I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they disagree 
>> with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.
>> 
>> I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow 
>> objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some 
>> people are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives 
>> matter.
>> 
>> I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Marvin Renich  wrote:
>>> [Note To and CC]
>>> 
>>> Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
>>> review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
>>> determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
>>> Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
>>> inappropriate in this context.
>>> 
>>> ...Marvin
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> "golang-nuts" group.
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>>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/20200615142640.2p37xxlnammendrr%40basil.wdw.
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Nathan Fisher
>  w: http://junctionbox.ca/
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Nathan Fisher]

Who knew a 50px high desktop only banner was such a usability obstacle.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:00 PM 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts <
golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they
> disagree with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.
>
> I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow
> objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some
> people are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives
> matter.
>
> I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Marvin Renich  wrote:
>
>> [Note To and CC]
>>
>> Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
>> review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
>> determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
>> Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
>> inappropriate in this context.
>>
>> ...Marvin
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "golang-nuts" group.
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>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/20200615142640.2p37xxlnammendrr%40basil.wdw
>> .
>>
> --
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> 
> .
>


-- 
Nathan Fisher
 w: http://junctionbox.ca/

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

The Equal Justice Initiative is not "a white person shouting from their
ivory tower".

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM Robert Engels 
wrote:

> Maybe I am confusing the lower case black lives matter with the BLM org
> and platform - the former I agree with wholeheartedly. I can assure you
> that elements of the BLM platform are very fringe with little support in
> the minority community- specifically the defund the police - so having a
> white person shouting from their ivory tower about what’s right for these
> communities is laughable.
>
> On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they
> disagree with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.
>
> I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow
> objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some
> people are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives
> matter.
>
> I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Marvin Renich  wrote:
>
>> [Note To and CC]
>>
>> Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
>> review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
>> determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
>> Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
>> inappropriate in this context.
>>
>> ...Marvin
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "golang-nuts" group.
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>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/20200615142640.2p37xxlnammendrr%40basil.wdw
>> .
>>
> --
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

It might be helpful to know that the Equal Justice Initiative is strongly
supported by the Google.org foundation (
https://www.google.org/our-work/inclusion/equal-justice-initiative/) and
Google itself (
https://about.google/main/google-supports-equal-justice-initiative/), and
has been for years. Moreover, golang.org is itself supported by Google.

I would encourage those posting here to reflect on what their message might
say to African American contributors, in particular. Are they saying, "you
and your contributions are welcome", or are they saying something more
guarded and hesitant? And if so, why?

This is not a request for you to answer these questions here, but a request
for you to consider them yourself, and place their needs and interests
ahead of your own for a moment.

Thomas

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:01 AM Thomas Bushnell, BSG 
wrote:

> Eric: It's not your list. You don't get to decide the policies of the list.
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:44 PM Eric S. Raymond  wrote:
>
>> Sam Whited :
>> > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
>> > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>>
>> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
>> belong.
>>
>> Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
>> --
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond
>>
>>
>> --
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>> "golang-nuts" group.
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>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> .
>>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

Maybe I am confusing the lower case black lives matter with the BLM org and 
platform - the former I agree with wholeheartedly. I can assure you that 
elements of the BLM platform are very fringe with little support in the 
minority community- specifically the defund the police - so having a white 
person shouting from their ivory tower about what’s right for these communities 
is laughable.

> On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:00 AM, 'Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they disagree 
> with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.
> 
> I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow 
> objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some people 
> are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives matter.
> 
> I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Marvin Renich  wrote:
>> [Note To and CC]
>> 
>> Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
>> review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
>> determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
>> Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
>> inappropriate in this context.
>> 
>> ...Marvin
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

Eric: It's not your list. You don't get to decide the policies of the list.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:44 PM Eric S. Raymond  wrote:

> Sam Whited :
> > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>
> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.
>
> Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
> --
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond
>
>
> --
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Thomas Bushnell, BSG' via golang-nuts]

I'm saddened by all the snowflakes who can't handle a message they disagree
with for a second, which is literally costing them exactly nothing.

I'm also saddened by anyone who thinks the message itself is somehow
objectionable. But I won't stop being an anti-racist just because some
people are made uncomfortable by the fairly plain message that black lives
matter.

I'm disgusted by the dog whistles already blown on this thread.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:27 AM Marvin Renich  wrote:

> [Note To and CC]
>
> Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
> review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
> determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
> Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
> inappropriate in this context.
>
> ...Marvin
>
> --
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Marvin Renich]

[Note To and CC]

Please consider this a formal request for the Go Project Stewards to
review the website banners being discussed in this thread and to make a
determination that these banners are causing divisiveness in the Go
Community and have offended some, and that the banners' content is
inappropriate in this context.

...Marvin

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

To clarify, that was not the point I was trying to make. If the BLM banner 
directed donations to BLM org I would have no issue, assuming BLM is a verified 
not-for-profit. 

The community leaders have a right to set the tone and focus for the group. The 
community can support, accept, ignore or fight their decisions. This community 
is not a democracy. The members are also free to leave. 

By linking BLM and EJI the Go leaders are speaking for both of those groups - 
which is wrong in my opinion - unless maybe they had prior approval. 



> On Jun 15, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Sam Whited  wrote:
> 
> If the argument were what specific charity to put in the banner this
> might be a discussion worth having, however I get the impression that
> many of these people are arguing against including a banner at all.
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 10:04, Robert Engels wrote:
>> I think a more specific point to be made is that it is a few select
>> people speaking for the community. In fact, the associating of BLM
>> with the EJI is suspect. Neither org associates with the other and
>> their platforms are in many ways Incompatible.
>> 
>> As a 30+ year major inner city dweller I can testify the issues
>> are complex and nuanced, and people should be really hesitant
>> when speaking for others under the assumption they know what’s
>> best for them.
> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

I think long years of experience has shown that this is not the case.
This argument is made frequently and amounts to "let's just ignore the
issues and hope they go away because they only affect a minority among
us". This is one of the reasons for the lack of diversity in this
industry (at least within the United States, I certainly can't speak for
everywhere else).

—Sam

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 10:05, Marvin Renich wrote:
> In what way does not having the banner affect how welcome people feel
> on the Go lists and websites?  As long as the discussions on these
> lists and websites remain technical, everyone should feel welcome.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

If the argument were what specific charity to put in the banner this
might be a discussion worth having, however I get the impression that
many of these people are arguing against including a banner at all.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 10:04, Robert Engels wrote:
> I think a more specific point to be made is that it is a few select
> people speaking for the community. In fact, the associating of BLM
> with the EJI is suspect. Neither org associates with the other and
> their platforms are in many ways Incompatible.
>
> As a 30+ year major inner city dweller I can testify the issues
> are complex and nuanced, and people should be really hesitant
> when speaking for others under the assumption they know what’s
> best for them.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Marvin Renich]

* Sam Whited  [200615 09:34]:
> This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
> here, which is also covered by this mailing list.

This is _so_ wrong.  The evidence that this banner has caused
substantial divisiveness and offended many members of the Go community
is obvious in this thread.

In what way does not having the banner affect how welcome people feel on
the Go lists and websites?  As long as the discussions on these lists
and websites remain technical, everyone should feel welcome.  When you
start discussing unrelated social issues, you are certain to offend some
people.

...Marvin

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

I think a more specific point to be made is that it is a few select people 
speaking for the community. In fact, the associating of BLM with the EJI is 
suspect. Neither org associates with the other and their platforms are in many 
ways Incompatible. 

As a 30+ year major inner city dweller I can testify the issues are complex and 
nuanced, and people should be really hesitant when speaking for others under 
the assumption they know what’s best for them. 

> On Jun 15, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Sam Whited  wrote:
> 
> This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
> here, which is also covered by this mailing list.
> 
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:18, K Davidson wrote:
>> Please keep posts limited to things about go.
> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

You're starting from the assumption that anything off-topic to the
language itself is bad. Why do you hold this position?

Even if we accept your position that anything slightly off topic is bad
(although I do not accept that position), this topic is relevant to
everyone trying to build a more diverse and equitable community, and Go
is as much a community of people as it is a language.

—Sam

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:43, Marvin Renich wrote:
> My opinion, and the way I interpreted Peter's original post, is that
> this banner is extremely inappropriate, independent of its social or
> political views, because it is completely off-topic for the
> discussion of the Go language and introduces a highly controversial
> non-technical issue into places where people go to discuss a specific
> technical topic.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Marvin Renich]

* 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts  [200614 20:15]:
> No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*.
> You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement,
> that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
> claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
> project is thus paradoxical.

My opinion, and the way I interpreted Peter's original post, is that
this banner is extremely inappropriate, independent of its social or
political views, because it is completely off-topic for the discussion
of the Go language and introduces a highly controversial non-technical
issue into places where people go to discuss a specific technical topic.

I find it even more offensive that it is not just a banner promoting
awareness of a social issue, but contains a request and link soliciting
money.

My alignment for or against any social issue has absolutely no bearing
on my opinion that this type of banner is inappropriate in this context.
I also believe that the people who run these websites have the right to
place banners of this nature if they wish, but they also have a
responsibility to _not_ do so.

...Marvin

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

This is an important issue about the Go Community and who feels welcomed
here, which is also covered by this mailing list.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 09:18, K Davidson wrote:
> Please keep posts limited to things about go.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:04 PM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> Ok.  I live in Singapore.  Here is a statement from the Singapore Police
> Force directly telling foreigners not to advocate for political causes or
> risk being deported:
> https://www.facebook.com/singaporepoliceforce/posts/10157358158324408
> Is that concrete enough?
>

No. The scenario you outlined was that you might link to golang.org or show
it in a talk and have that be interpreted as political fundraising. The
post is specifically concerned with foreigners organizing public protests.
That's basically the polar opposite to "a page I linked to for unrelated
reasons also contained a banner-ad for a political non-profit". This is a Ship
of Theseus  argument. You"re
replacing "linking to a site containing a banner" with "political advocacy"
and that again with "organizing a public protest" and you are replacing
"there's a warning about doing X" with "doing X will cause you real and
immanent danger" and you're replacing "Fundraising for a social justice
movement" with "interfering in a foreign election". And you're pretending
that it's still the same argument.

But it's not. What I'm skeptical on is the specific claim, that this banner
will land you, or anyone, in trouble when linking to golang.org.

I would not want any banners that could appear to be political to appear on
> my screen while giving a public talk.
>

Then don't show them. You can show screenshots and censor them, for
example. But "I don't want to show this piece of info" can hardly be
translated to "you shouldn't show it".

I do not want any such banners anywhere near any documentation I might send
> to a colleague or client.  I want 0 risk of these things happening.  I do
> not think it is fair to equate this to orcs and wizards.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:55 PM Axel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>
>>> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic
>>> place)" or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.
>>>
>>
>> It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and
>> intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.
>> Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real
>> precedence with a different imagined problem?
>>
>>
>>> This banner differs only in degree of risk.
>>>
>>
>> Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by
>> a needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of
>> stabbing. But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd
>> rightly point out that that's an imagined problem.
>>
>>
>>> It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.
>>>
>>
>> Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be
>> weighed against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of
>> people of color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to
>> their lives.
>> To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual
>> amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.
>>
>> This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about
>>> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
>>>
>>
>> It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that
>> was brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is
>> about for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting
>> that as well.
>>
>> As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm
>>> concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed
>>> concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously
>>> (regardless of outcome).
>>>
>>
>> I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or
>> flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you
 have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a
 page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have
 some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

 Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
 believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
 around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws
 I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about
 real.

 On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter 
 wrote:

> I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a
> significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many
> major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a
> presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the 

Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[K Davidson]

This mailing list is for the Go Programming Language, there are other places on 
the internet to discuss unrelated topics.

Please keep posts limited to things about go.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:56 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> It's not difficult to imagine banners like "free (some geographic place)"
> or "remember (someone or some date)" causing severe problems.
>

It's also not difficult to imagine Orcs and wizarding schools and
intergalactic star flight. Doesn't make any of them real.
Are you aware of the optics of responding to a question about real
precedence with a different imagined problem?


> This banner differs only in degree of risk.
>

Quantitative differences easily become qualitative ones. Being pricked by a
needle or getting knifed in the stomach only differ by degree of stabbing.
But if I told you that my doctor is trying to kill me, you'd rightly point
out that that's an imagined problem.


> It increases the risk of a problem by some non-0 amount.
>

Assuming that was true, this non-0 amount would still needed to be weighed
against the benefits and in this case, the very real plight of people of
color across the world. Who are in very, painfully real danger to their
lives.
To make that tradeoff, at the very least, we'd need to know the actual
amount. But so far, the amount appears to be an actual zero.

This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiments. It's about
> not wanting to think about it when consulting technical documentation.
>

It is, for some people. In fact, it seems to me the only "concern" that was
brought up by multiple people. Even if it might not be what this is about
for you, you should at least still be aware that you are supporting that as
well.

As an aside it is not nice to be told my concerns are trivial.  I'm
> concerned. I'm not the only person on this list that has expressed
> concerns. That should be enough for the issue to be taken seriously
> (regardless of outcome).
>

I disagree with this logic. There are millions of anti-vaxxers or
flat-earthers. Doesn't mean their claims and concerns have any merit.


> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 17:23 Axel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
>> Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you
>> have precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a
>> page for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have
>> some real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.
>>
>> Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
>> believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
>> around how what you may say is violating them. NBut just because it's laws
>> I make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about
>> real.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a
>>> significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many
>>> major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a
>>> presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source
>>> or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply
>>> with them.
>>>
>>> I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to
>>> dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is
>>> an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct
>>> isn't the primary concern.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner <
>>> axel.wagner...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as
 a testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
 Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
 foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
 the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
 judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
 is the least of your worries.

 Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of
 conduct as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood
 that. Just pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire
 community" is pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.

 On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
> events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
> that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
> countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
> 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
> of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
> community.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all
>> actions
>> are 

Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Eric S. Raymond]

Sam Whited :
> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> and important to do so?

The ensuing dispute over its appropriateness is enough evidence that
it is political.
-- 
http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond


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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

Can you be more specific about how this is a real issue? Like, do you have
precedent, where a banner-ad was the reason someone who linked to a page
for unrelated reasons was prosecuted? Would be interesting to have some
real cases so we get a clear picture of the threat here.

Because to be clear, the reason I am trivializing this, is because I
believe it to be trivial. I can make up all kinds of laws and speculate
around how what you may say is violating them. But just because it's laws I
make wild claims about doesn't actually make the problems I talk about real.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:33 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> I'm sorry, I think this trivializes real concerns that impact a
> significant number of people.  It is not hard to imagine a setting in many
> major cities around a world where a banner like this appearing during a
> presentation or training session could cause problems.  I am not the source
> or enforcer of such rules -- but I am responsible for ensuring I comply
> with them.
>
> I don't know where you live or work or travel but is in insensitive to
> dismiss this as a non-issue for everyone that uses go.  To the extent it is
> an issue it's a local legal issue.  In that way the go code of conduct
> isn't the primary concern.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM Axel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
>> I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a
>> testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
>> Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
>> foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
>> the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
>> judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
>> is the least of your worries.
>>
>> Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct
>> as not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just
>> pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is
>> pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:
>>
>>> Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
>>> events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
>>> that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
>>> countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
>>> 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
>>> of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
>>> community.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
>>> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
 are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
 Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
 action and what doesn't varies between people.

 On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
 > Sam Whited :
 > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
 > > It
 > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
 >
 > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
 > belong.
 >
 > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.



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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

I share link to golang.org all the time and I'd be willing to serve as a
testcase for this. Feel free to report my alleged crimes to the police.
Claiming that simply sharing a link to the Go page is "advocating for a
foreign political cause" is clearly a bad-faith argument, so if you live in
the kind of legal system where you aren't laughed out of the room by any
judge you try to make it to, I feel that the content of the Go project page
is the least of your worries.

Also telling that you seem to explicitly call out the Go code of conduct as
not "impacting the entire community"? Surely I misunderstood that. Just
pointing that out to make clear that "it impacts the entire community" is
pretty much par for the course for things the Go team does.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jon Reiter  wrote:

> Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
> events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
> that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
> countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
> 219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
> of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
> community.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
>> are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
>> Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
>> action and what doesn't varies between people.
>>
>> On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>> > Sam Whited :
>> > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
>> > > It
>> > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
>> >
>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
>> > belong.
>> >
>> > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> "golang-nuts" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jon Reiter]

Except now sharing links to golang.org, or showing those web pages at
events, could be argued as advocating for a foreign political cause.  And
that's illegal in much of the world.  Per google, google operates in 219
countries.  This could force community members to argue in any of at least
219 legal systems this is apolitical under local law.  Not the golang code
of conduct, local law.  That is a decision that impacts the entire
community.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM 'Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts <
golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
> are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
> Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
> action and what doesn't varies between people.
>
> On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > Sam Whited :
> > > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
> > > It
> > > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
> >
> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
> > belong.
> >
> > Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "golang-nuts" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d396661a24dd31c0f97842cd69dd939437bf2e4c.camel%40kortschak.io
> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Jesse McNelis]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:12 AM andrey mirtchovski 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
> on golang.org for me?
>
> (reductio ad absurdum)
>

This sounds like a great idea to me. It would probably need to be a
non-profit that furthers the Go language by expanding the reach and appeal
of the community to underrepresented groups.
Perhaps someone could put together a policy on what kind of non-profits
that would involve and this could be an ongoing thing.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 01:22 robert engels  wrote:

> All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing
> based on political party affiliations.
>

No, what you said is, that objecting to the banner may not be *political*.
You didn't mention parties and neither did I. And I stand by my statement,
that objecting to the banner *is* inherently a political act. And that
claiming to object on the grounds that you don't want politics in the Go
project is thus paradoxical.

Do you think all Democrats think alike on all issues? This is the problem
> with society at large these days - you can be aligned on the goals and
> disagree on how you get there but if you disagree with the vocal minority
> then look out.
>
> You know nothing about me, my background, my politics - or morals for that
> matter - so please be more respectful. Nothing I said on this topic was in
> any way disrespectful of anyone - yours clearly has been.
>
> On Jun 14, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Axel Wagner 
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:08 AM Robert Engels 
> wrote:
>
>> Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not
>> correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how
>> best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all.
>>
>
> No, it is *inherently* political to try and silence the support of
> marginalized people.
> That's what's happening here, to point out the obvious. Some people (the
> Go project) expressed support for a marginalized group and now, you and
> others are trying to silence them. That's a political act. Which is why I
> say, it's not about "if politics", it's "which politics". You are saying
> your political activism is okay, but theirs isn't.
>
>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <
>> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an
>> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I
>> was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first
>> amendment here).
>> Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what*
>> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized
>> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm
>> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two
>> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way
>> or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be
>> sad to see you leave.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:
>>
>>> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
>>> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
>>> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
>>> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
>>> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
>>> your point).
>>>
>>> —Sam
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
>>> > not belong.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com
>>> .
>>>
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Ian Lance Taylor]

Let's please all remember to be respectful and charitable in this
discussion, per the gopher values in the code of conduct.  Let's not let
this go off the rails.  Thanks.

Ian

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[robert engels]

I never said once that what the Go team was wrong, or not within their rights - 
all I ever called for was transparency so people can educated decisions on the 
subject. After more research into EJI I even stated I was wrong about possible 
political affiliations in this case. 

Maybe you were reading someone else’s post ???

All I pointed out was that someone objecting to this may not be doing based on 
political party affiliations. Do you think all Democrats think alike on all 
issues? This is the problem with society at large these days - you can be 
aligned on the goals and disagree on how you get there but if you disagree with 
the vocal minority then look out.

You know nothing about me, my background, my politics - or morals for that 
matter - so please be more respectful. Nothing I said on this topic was in any 
way disrespectful of anyone - yours clearly has been.

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Axel Wagner  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:08 AM Robert Engels  > wrote:
> Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not 
> correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best 
> to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all. 
> 
> No, it is *inherently* political to try and silence the support of 
> marginalized people.
> That's what's happening here, to point out the obvious. Some people (the Go 
> project) expressed support for a marginalized group and now, you and others 
> are trying to silence them. That's a political act. Which is why I say, it's 
> not about "if politics", it's "which politics". You are saying your political 
> activism is okay, but theirs isn't.
>  
> 
>> On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts 
>> mailto:golang-nuts@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an 
>> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I 
>> was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first amendment 
>> here).
>> Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what* 
>> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized 
>> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm 
>> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two 
>> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way or 
>> don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be sad 
>> to see you leave.
>> 
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited > > wrote:
>> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
>> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
>> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
>> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
>> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
>> your point).
>> 
>> —Sam
>> 
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
>> > not belong.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> "golang-nuts" group.
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>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com
>>  
>> .
>> 
>> -- 
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>>  
>> .

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Dan Kortschak' via golang-nuts]

In the context of a sufficiently large collection of people all actions
are political to some degree, *including inaction and non-comment*.
Where the boundary is for the degree on what constitutes a political
action and what doesn't varies between people.

On Sun, 2020-06-14 at 16:44 -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> Sam Whited :
> > This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue.
> > It
> > is a social issue. It is a justice issue.
> 
> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not
> belong.
> 
> Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.



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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

You could start here. If the Go team is comfortable putting a banner in its
support on the page, they might do so.
(You are using "reductio ad absurdum" wrong).

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:12 AM andrey mirtchovski 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
> on golang.org for me?
>
> (reductio ad absurdum)
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:08 PM Robert Engels 
> wrote:
> >
> > Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not
> correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how
> best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all.
> >
> > On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Hi,
> >
> > the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an
> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I
> was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first
> amendment here).
> > Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what*
> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized
> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm
> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two
> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way
> or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be
> sad to see you leave.
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:
> >>
> >> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> >> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> >> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
> >> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
> >> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
> >> your point).
> >>
> >> —Sam
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> >> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
> >> > not belong.
> >>
> >> --
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:08 AM Robert Engels 
wrote:

> Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not
> correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how
> best to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all.
>

No, it is *inherently* political to try and silence the support of
marginalized people.
That's what's happening here, to point out the obvious. Some people (the Go
project) expressed support for a marginalized group and now, you and others
are trying to silence them. That's a political act. Which is why I say,
it's not about "if politics", it's "which politics". You are saying your
political activism is okay, but theirs isn't.


>
> On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts <
> golang-nuts@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi,
>
> the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an
> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I
> was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first
> amendment here).
> Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what*
> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized
> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm
> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two
> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way
> or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be
> sad to see you leave.
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:
>
>> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
>> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
>> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
>> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
>> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
>> your point).
>>
>> —Sam
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
>> > not belong.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "golang-nuts" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[andrey mirtchovski]

Hi,

I have a non-profit I'd like to support. Who do I ask to put a banner
on golang.org for me?

(reductio ad absurdum)

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 4:08 PM Robert Engels  wrote:
>
> Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not 
> correct. You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best 
> to do so. It doesn’t have to be political at all.
>
> On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts 
>  wrote:
>
> 
> Hi,
>
> the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an 
> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I was 
> a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first amendment 
> here).
> Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what* 
> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized 
> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm 
> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two 
> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way or 
> don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be sad 
> to see you leave.
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:
>>
>> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
>> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
>> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
>> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
>> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
>> your point).
>>
>> —Sam
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
>> > not belong.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "golang-nuts" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com.
>
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

Equating not supporting this and supporting marginalized groups is not correct. 
You can support marginalized groups all day and disagree on how best to do so. 
It doesn’t have to be political at all. 

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 4:43 PM, 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an 
> opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I was 
> a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first amendment 
> here).
> Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what* 
> politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized 
> groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm 
> concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two 
> I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way or 
> don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be sad 
> to see you leave.
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:
>> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
>> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
>> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
>> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
>> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
>> your point).
>> 
>> —Sam
>> 
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
>> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
>> > not belong.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "golang-nuts" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com.
> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

['Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts]

Hi,

the Go Team and the Go Project are composed of people and expressing an
opinion - *especially* a political one - is well within their right (If I
was a conservative American I would wax poetically about the first
amendment here).
Let's not pretend this is about politics or not. This is about *what*
politics. Some people will feel turned away if you support marginalized
groups. But not doing so will turn away other people. And as far as I'm
concerned, if I'm given the choice, I know perfectly well which of the two
I'm fine turning away. Black lives matter. And if you don't feel that way
or don't want to support that message, as far as I'm concerned, I won't be
sad to see you leave.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 11:07 PM Sam Whited  wrote:

> What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
> an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
> and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
> unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
> donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
> your point).
>
> —Sam
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> > It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
> > not belong.
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/d7710db8-7e16-4e36-aa76-627de71cb7e9%40www.fastmail.com
> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

What makes you think this is somehow politics and not simply supporting
an important not-for-profit at a time when it's particularly relevant
and important to do so? I don't see anything political about the topic
unless you count that some of the solutions are political (but this one,
donating to a respected non-profit, is not, so I still don't understand
your point).

—Sam

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 16:44, Eric S. Raymond wrote:
> It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does
> not belong.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Eric S. Raymond]

Sam Whited :
> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue.

It is the injection of politics into a list where politics does not belong.

Kindly perform your virtue signalling elsewhere.
-- 
http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond


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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Amarjeet Anand]

Thanks Sam for the details
Now it makes sense and I can see where it is coming from.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:44 PM Sam Whited  wrote:

> They are directed to the Equal Justice Initiative which is a non-profit.
> In the united states 501(c)3 not-for-profit organizations are barred
> from certain kinds of political speech including endorsing individual
> parties or candidates. The banner does not point to any particular
> political party.
>
> —Sam
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:10, Robert Engels wrote:
> > I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I
> > believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the
> > boundary between supporting social issues and political contributions
> > is murky. I am not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more
> > transparent.
>
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

Thank you, I had already corrected my statement. Sorry to everyone. 

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 9:13 AM, Sam Whited  wrote:
> 
> They are directed to the Equal Justice Initiative which is a non-profit.
> In the united states 501(c)3 not-for-profit organizations are barred
> from certain kinds of political speech including endorsing individual
> parties or candidates. The banner does not point to any particular
> political party.
> 
> —Sam
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:10, Robert Engels wrote:
>> I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I
>> believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the
>> boundary between supporting social issues and political contributions
>> is murky. I am not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more
>> transparent.
> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

They are directed to the Equal Justice Initiative which is a non-profit.
In the united states 501(c)3 not-for-profit organizations are barred
from certain kinds of political speech including endorsing individual
parties or candidates. The banner does not point to any particular
political party.

—Sam

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020, at 10:10, Robert Engels wrote:
> I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I
> believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the
> boundary between supporting social issues and political contributions
> is murky. I am not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more
> transparent.

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

Major correction, this is not the .org I was thinking of. I have no knowledge 
that what I said is the case with the EJI. 

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 9:10 AM, Robert Engels  wrote:
> 
> I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I 
> believe the funds are directed to specific political parties so the boundary 
> between supporting social issues and political contributions is murky. I am 
> not saying it shouldn’t be done but it should be more transparent. 
> 
>> On Jun 14, 2020, at 8:58 AM, Sam Whited  wrote:
>> 
>> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
>> is a social issue. It is a justice issue. It seems quite obvious to me
>> that this is different than if they had put a fundraiser for a candidate
>> for office, for instance, in a banner.
>> 
>> It amazes me how often people come out of the wood work to criticize the
>> politicization of things as soon as anyone posts a black lives matter
>> banner, but would be perfectly happy with banners for another cause. Of
>> course, I don't know if that's you or not, so I'll leave you with some
>> questions: If you have a problem with this, consider whether you'd have
>> the same problem with a banner for a cancer research foundation during
>> the U.S.'s cancer awareness month, for example. If the answer is no,
>> consider why that might be and work on it. If the answer is yes consider
>> why a banner that doesn't hurt you but could help a lot of people
>> bothers you so much.
>> 
>> This *is* related to Go, because it's a community issue and Go is a
>> community as much as it's a language. Communities of privilege staying
>> silent on these matters and leaving it up to others, often to
>> communities that have expended many generations worth of emotional
>> capital on this already and who often are dismissed by the very people
>> who need to hear their message, is part of the problem. We don't want to
>> be part of the problem, so let's do our part, however small, with the
>> platforms we have.
>> 
>> —Sam
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Robert Engels]

I agree it is an important social issue, but in this particular case I believe 
the funds are directed to specific political parties so the boundary between 
supporting social issues and political contributions is murky. I am not saying 
it shouldn’t be done but it should be more transparent. 

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 8:58 AM, Sam Whited  wrote:
> 
> This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
> is a social issue. It is a justice issue. It seems quite obvious to me
> that this is different than if they had put a fundraiser for a candidate
> for office, for instance, in a banner.
> 
> It amazes me how often people come out of the wood work to criticize the
> politicization of things as soon as anyone posts a black lives matter
> banner, but would be perfectly happy with banners for another cause. Of
> course, I don't know if that's you or not, so I'll leave you with some
> questions: If you have a problem with this, consider whether you'd have
> the same problem with a banner for a cancer research foundation during
> the U.S.'s cancer awareness month, for example. If the answer is no,
> consider why that might be and work on it. If the answer is yes consider
> why a banner that doesn't hurt you but could help a lot of people
> bothers you so much.
> 
> This *is* related to Go, because it's a community issue and Go is a
> community as much as it's a language. Communities of privilege staying
> silent on these matters and leaving it up to others, often to
> communities that have expended many generations worth of emotional
> capital on this already and who often are dismissed by the very people
> who need to hear their message, is part of the problem. We don't want to
> be part of the problem, so let's do our part, however small, with the
> platforms we have.
> 
> —Sam
> 
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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Sam Whited]

This is not a simple political issue, it is a personal human issue. It
is a social issue. It is a justice issue. It seems quite obvious to me
that this is different than if they had put a fundraiser for a candidate
for office, for instance, in a banner.

It amazes me how often people come out of the wood work to criticize the
politicization of things as soon as anyone posts a black lives matter
banner, but would be perfectly happy with banners for another cause. Of
course, I don't know if that's you or not, so I'll leave you with some
questions: If you have a problem with this, consider whether you'd have
the same problem with a banner for a cancer research foundation during
the U.S.'s cancer awareness month, for example. If the answer is no,
consider why that might be and work on it. If the answer is yes consider
why a banner that doesn't hurt you but could help a lot of people
bothers you so much.

This *is* related to Go, because it's a community issue and Go is a
community as much as it's a language. Communities of privilege staying
silent on these matters and leaving it up to others, often to
communities that have expended many generations worth of emotional
capital on this already and who often are dismissed by the very people
who need to hear their message, is part of the problem. We don't want to
be part of the problem, so let's do our part, however small, with the
platforms we have.

—Sam

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Re: [go-nuts] political fundraising on golang.org!

[Amarjeet Anand]

I second Peter.
This is absolutely unbelievable.

On Sun, Jun 14, 2020 at 7:06 PM peterGo  wrote:

> Recently, a political message with a fundraising link appeared as a banner
> atop golang.org websites: https://golang.org/, https://pkg.go.dev/.
>
> content/static: add Black Lives Matter banner to top of site
> https://go-review.googlesource.com/c/website/+/237589
>
> 
> Black Lives Matter.
> https://support.eji.org/give/153413/#!/donation/checkout;
>target="_blank"
>rel="noopener">Support the Equal Justice Initiative.
> 
>
> How was this decision made?
>
> Go is a programming language. For political fundraising use personal
> Twitter and Facebook accounts.
>
> Peter
>
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> 
> .
>

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