RE: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Yeah, remember here in California, people voted "The Terminator" into the
office of governor. And when I was a kid, I remember hearing one adult say
she was voting for Ronald Reagan for governor because he always played such
nice guys in movies and she was sure he was just like that! Even as a kid, I
was appalled.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Films


 
In a message dated 4/23/2006 7:46:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But if  more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable 
sources of  history...




**
 
If only they would not use them as a reliable source of anything. Many  
people REALLY think Bruce Willis is a tough guy you'd want to have on your
side  in 
a pinch. NOT! They think Julie Andrews really is singing right then and
there 
 on that Austrian hill side during a helicopter shot. Uh huh. Hell they
think 
 that really is an Austrian hill side!
 
And I love those "behind the scenes" and "Making of" featurettes on  
DVDsas if they're true! No... they are films too! Nothing on film is
real.  Not 
even reality TV!
 
Hell, we've got a president who won't listen to Science on global warming,  
but invites Michael Crichton to the White House to discuss his stupid little

work of fiction "State of Fear"!
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Robin Netherton]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote:

> I don't even want to think about what church historians and
> Renaissance historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code
> movie comes out.  There are going to be an awful lot of people who
> will think it's entirely factual.

I'm already getting that from my audiences. I do a lecture on "dress of
the saints" -- that is, how to use religious figures in costume research.
One of the figures I spend a lot of time on is Mary Magdalene, and ever
since Da Vinci Code came out, I've had to spend a chunk of my Q&A time
patiently setting people straight on misconceptions they picked up out of
that damn book. (Sample question: How can I be sure that such-and-so-image
of the Madonna and Child isn't really Mary Magdalen and her baby by
Jesus?)

No, it's not the majority of people in the room, but it only takes a few
to derail the entire conversation.

I can't predict whether the movie will just make it worse, but it sure
won't make it better.

--Robin


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] RE:fall front trousers, etc

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

What you're looking for can easily be found in the following two or
three patterns, all by Kannik's Korner, historically accurate with excellent
engineering, historical and sewing notes, all of which we carry, and can be
viewed, and purchased, at: http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_17.html :

KK4303 Man's Trousers, 1790-1810
KK4304 Outer Breeches-Slops 1750-1820
KK4551 Men's double-breasted Short Jacket

Hope you find this of some assistance.


I was looking in an old Smoke and Fire catalog and must have missed this 
trousers pattern.  It's just what I was looking for.  I can't use the slops 
pattern, tho I have access to one thru another group I'm in, and the jacket 
isn't quite what I had in mind.  But the trousers are perfect.


Does Five Rivers Chapmanry have flat brass buttons?  Jas. Townsend has nice 
domed ones, but I don't know if they're quite right for 1812.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

 ///\
-@@\\\
      7 )))
)((  <> ))(
 * )   ( *
  /\   /---\

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Lavolta Press]

I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance 
historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes 
out.  There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's 
entirely factual.


So what?  There are a great many fields which you and I know little 
about, which are no more or less important than history, and which we 
probably have many "misconceptions" about.


And if you're going to teach you need to be able to deal with people not 
knowing everything already without looking down on them.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltaress.com
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Fascinating: oldest evidence for needle binding

[Catherine Olanich Raymond]

On Friday 21 April 2006 9:45 pm, Chris Laning wrote:
> At 8:43 AM -0700 4/21/06, Chris wrote:
> >Forgot...I was completely blown away by the plaids they've found as
> >well...reminds me of the Stewart 'hunting' plaid, but regardless,
> >it's absolutely BEAUTIFUL!!!  Wait until you see it!
>
> Yes, and of course the news media immediately seized on this and
> started speculating about "Celtic peoples" in central Asia .
>
> You don't have to be Celtic to weave plaid fabric. Or wear it. Or
> anything it's just what happens naturally when you have repeating
> color patterns in your warp and weft...

True.  If you start looking into sarong designs in Indonesia you find tribes 
who wear plaids--some of which are predominantly pink.

-- 
Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"I'm starting to like the cut of this man's gibberish."
--General Fillmore (from "The Tick," episode 2)

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Remember Julie Christie's hair in "Dr. Zhivago"?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Laning
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 3:56 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale


At 6:22 PM -0400 4/23/06, Ruth Anne Baumgartner wrote:
>... everything blends together into the look of Yore. That's why
>hennins, for example, seem to be appropriate headgear for The Merry 
>Wives of Windsor?!?!?! etc.

Thank you for a very useful term! "Yore" it is.

On Apr 23, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Sharon L. Krossa wrote:
>The more I learn about the entertainment industry, the clearer it
>becomes that "accuracy" is more an advertising buzz-word (used to 
>attract audiences) than something truly pursued. That is, it is far 
>more important to persuasively _claim_ accuracy than to actually 
>_be_ accurate. (I'm know there are exceptions among individuals who 
>work in these industries -- but in the industry as a whole...)

Besides, it's a lot easier and cheaper to just *claim* it than to 
actually *do* even a half-decent job of it.

At 6:50 PM -0700 4/21/06, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:
>I agree- the leading lady was SO out of period. I kept thinking one hat 
>looked more like it belonged in "Breakfast at Tiffany's". The costumes 
>bothered me more than the music.

"Leading Lady Syndrome" -- the Big Name Star playing the leading lady 
more or less gets to wear whatever she wants, even if that means it's 
wildly different from what everyone else is wearing. Often this means 
no corset, low necklines, clingy fabrics, modern hairstyles 
whatever _she_ thinks makes her look sexy. 

-- 


OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California
+ http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 4/23/2006 7:46:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But if  more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable 
sources of  history...




**
 
If only they would not use them as a reliable source of anything. Many  
people REALLY think Bruce Willis is a tough guy you'd want to have on your side 
 in 
a pinch. NOT! They think Julie Andrews really is singing right then and there 
 on that Austrian hill side during a helicopter shot. Uh huh. Hell they think 
 that really is an Austrian hill side!
 
And I love those "behind the scenes" and "Making of" featurettes on  
DVDsas if they're true! No... they are films too! Nothing on film is real.  
Not 
even reality TV!
 
Hell, we've got a president who won't listen to Science on global warming,  
but invites Michael Crichton to the White House to discuss his stupid little  
work of fiction "State of Fear"!
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Susan Carroll-Clark]

Greetings--

Lavolta Press wrote:
Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor particularly 
job-getting in our society. 
Tell me about it.  PhD in history.  Now working as a project manager (a 
job I love, by the way--and doing the doctorate was great prep work!)
My bet is that most college history professors seeing enthusiastic 
enrollment increase after a major film for that era is released, waft 
a mental "Thanks!" to the producers.
Having been in academia when a number of these movies came out, I can 
tell you they don't really do all that much for enrollment in history 
classes, unless someone goes out of their way to target a class 
specifically at the time period or topic covered in the movie, and to 
gear the class for those who wouldn't have otherwise taken a history 
class.  The general history classes most non-historians take are too 
broad to benefit from interest generated by a focused historical movie, 
and those who are taking higher-level courses which would have a closer 
focus would likely have taken them anyway.


I was a TA when that Scottish film came out.  It got a little tiring 
after awhile continually debunking it.  If it had brought about 
pertinent and probing questions about the period at hand (we've had some 
excellent historical movies that have done that--just not much for the 
medieval period), it would have been a different story altogether.  But 
that particular movie didn't. (The part that got *very* old very quickly 
was the whole "right of the first night" thing that the movie claims 
Edward promulgated on the Scots.  Grr.)


I don't even want to think about what church historians and Renaissance 
historians are going to go through when the Da Vinci Code movie comes 
out.  There are going to be an awful lot of people who will think it's 
entirely factual.


Susan


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Elizabeth Walpole]

One of the best examples of this is perhaps the best King Arthur movie 
ever made, the immortal "Monty Python and the Holy Grail."  The more you 
know about Arthurian legend and medieval history, the funnier it 
gets--although it's pretty funny even without a jot of knowledge about 
either.


Susan


Very true, if anybody wants a good scholarly look at medieval films have a 
look at this book:
Aberth, John. _A_Knight_at_the_Movies:_Medieval_History_on_Film. Routledge 
New York. 2003. ISBN 0-415-93885-6


the example he gives of a good historical movie is in fact Monty Python and 
the Holy Grail and he points out just how relevant the jokes are. I'm 
currently doing a course on History on Film (not history of film but looking 
at the way history is portrayed in movies).


Elizabeth

Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Lavolta Press]

The problem, as I said, "is when audiences believe what they see in 
films". The solution to that is to try to get more people to understand 
the nature of films -- such as that they are inevitably inaccurate -- 
and thus the appropriate and inappropriate uses of films, and to stop 
using them inappropriately, specifically, to stop using them as if they 
were reliable sources of historical information.


I think most modern people have both a healthy skeptism about 
advertising, and an awareness that fiction (including films) is not reality.




Now, admittedly, it would help a lot with this if movie makers would 
stop lying to their audiences by making false claims about the accuracy 
of their films. Personally, I'm not holding my breath on this, as 
unscrupulous movie makers show no signs of giving up lying about this or 
any other matter. 


"Lying" and "unscrupulous" is putting it too strong, unless it's a 
supposed to be a documentary.  Even then, there are often multiple, 
equally valid interpretations of things.


So while I do urge movie makers to be more honest, my real

target for change is movie watchers, not movie makers.




Many professors would rather have only 20 students
truly interested in learning real history than 200 students insisting 
they already know all the answers because they saw the movie and getting 
mad when the professor shatters those fondly held movie myths that 
"inspired" them to study history.


I don't recall any of my professors being anything but enthusiastic 
about students' sincere interest in their subjects. Nor did they expect 
students to know all about a topic before signing up for a class--if 
they had, those students wouldn't have bothered to sign up.




For as I said in a previous post -- teaching is a lot more fun than 
unteaching, and movies that bring students to the classroom usually also 
bring a lot of need for unteaching. 




OK, well, I was trained as a historian too . . . and I've spent my 
entire working life (ever since college) as a writer and editor of 
how-to on a number of subjects, in addition to historic customing.  In 
other words, teaching.


And I don't think it is productive to maintain an attitude that other 
people are "wrong," full of "misconceptions" and "inaccuracies," 
requiring my personal correction in order to set the world right, and 
bemoaning the fact that everyone doesn't know everything I know.


I remember in a historiography seminar, the professor asking the 
students what first got them interested in history.  Most of them came 
up with legends, old or modern historical novels, films, and so on.   I 
remember the professor saying that most people become interested in 
history that way, and that historians tend to be romantics; you just 
can't let romanticism get in the way of social science.


But that's for professionals; not the world at large.

There are lots of good courses and lectures and books and websites out 
there. People who want in-depth information will look for it and find 
it. Those who don't want it, won't.


And there will always be people who prefer a dream to reality.  So what? 
 Dreams and fictions are important too.  Reenacting is just a hobby, 
and there are many ways to enjoy it.  For some people it's serious 
research; and for some, it's pretending they're Robin Hood or Scarlett 
O'Hara or whoever.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

A friend and I once costumed "The Seagull". The director wanted it period
(1904)and had an idea of what he wanted the women's costumes to look like.
My friend and I brought in dress after dress. He kept rejecting them.
Finally, he borrowed a couple of dresses from a friend of his, to show us.
They were fancy 1830's ballgowns. My friend and I looked at each other and
stopped asking him for his opinion. We just went ahead and made dresses
appropriate to 1904. He loved them (and didn't understand how they were
different from the stuff he'd brought in). 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale


 
In a message dated 4/23/2006 6:17:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

but I  think the dating of the chest was 
absolutely precise. Most people nowadays  (and, I promise you, my 
college students included) think of time in only a  few categories: the 
future, now, their parents' "day," and "Yore." For  many Americans, 
"Yore" applies especially to anything before the American  Revolution, 



**
Some of my fave examples of this was when I worked for a costumeas in  
masquerade and Halloween...shop. They were trying their best to break out
into  
theatre and such, but...alas.
 
Anyway, I'll never forget a blurb, in a catalogue, for a long full skirt:  
"Wear over hoopskirt for old-timey effect." Hahahaha! That became an inside
joke 
 for any dreadfully off costume.
 
Another time, there was a couple who were going to a fancy dress party and  
were looking thru the slide show the shop had set up of couples wearing 
costumes  they had for rent that went with each other. The "Napoleon and
Josephine"  
couple flashed up and the woman exclaimed "Why there's Queen Elizabeth and  
her husband!"
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Historical Films (was: Knight's Tale)

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

I had never before heard about TFWNSNBU, so didn't know if it was
superstition or a critique. :-)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sharon L. Krossa
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:20 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Historical Films (was: Knight's Tale)


At 12:12 PM -0400 4/23/06, Carol Kocian wrote:
>>"Braveheart"
>>SharonC., who says "Macbeth" backstage too, and doesn't spit, turn 
>>around, go out and come back in, etc.

I quite happily say Macbeth, and I don't really care if anyone else 
says in my presence the name of That Film Whose Name Shall Not Be 
Uttered (though I may spit ;-). I avoid saying the name as an 
expression of my feelings (which others may or may not share), not 
superstition.

>  On the Revlist (American Revolution) some people will write
>*spit* after they mention the movie, The Patriot.  It's a testament to 
>Mel that there are such reactions to his movies...

I don't find this reaction surprising, given that Mel in particular 
goes to great lengths to persuade audiences that his "historical" 
films are accurate, while at the same time not really bothering much 
with historical accuracy and essentially making the same movie over 
and over again. The resulting reaction to the supposedly historical 
films by those who care about history is predictable, and magnified 
by the popularity of his movies (which increases the numbers who 
believe the nonsense peddled as truth by Gibson).

(The Patriot *spit* and TFWNSNBU are essentially the same plot, which 
plot borrows a great deal from the plots of various contemporary and 
futuristic movies Mel has been in. Never mind that the real history 
he claimed to be portraying doesn't actually fit that plot...)

If Mel did not work so hard at selling his movies as accurate, he and 
his movies would not get the strong reaction they get for being so 
inaccurate.

Sharon
-- 
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
 Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: Center strip on Eleonora's gowns (WasRE: [h-cost] TudorTailor....a review)

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

Oh, if you click on the second pic listed here, it does an extreme
close-up. I notice that her partlet is tied with one tie, threaded through
double holes on each side. My current has 2 ties and they get tangled. I
love this list.
Sharon :-)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bella
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:46 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: Center strip on Eleonora's gowns (WasRE: [h-cost]
TudorTailora review)


monica spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >The dresses worn by Eleonora in her Bronzino portraits
usually don't have that center strip down the CF. You can surmise that is
there from the pictures where she wears a zimarra (surcoat). Where you do
see the strip come from the hands of copyists, or students of Bronzino or
from his workshop-- not from the master himself.
   
   
   
  I believe this one is stated to be by the master himself...
   
  http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?45823+0+0
   
  Just thinking out loud here -  perhaps the centre-front strip owes its
existance more to a then current fashion (1550s-1560s I mean) for decorating
bodices of plain fabric (as opposed to figured fabric), than to a
copyist/school of Bronzino. 
   
  There are very few images of Eleonora. Of those of her in a non-figured
fabric, the above image (1560s, by Bronzino himself) shows a centre-front
strip of embroidery, and only one of her (the pink one by Bronzino) which
does not show it is dated from the 1540s...
  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Angelo_Bronzino_040.jpg
   
  So perhaps it is rather the date of the portrait which explains why "the
dresses worn by Eleonora in her Bronzino portraits usually don't have that
center strip down the CF".
   
  As for evidence from the 1550s-1560s centre-front strip of
embroidery/embellishment, I can only think of one earlier image (from
Bergamo rather than Florence) of the 1550s that features a centre-front
strip, albeit in a fan-shaped rather than T-shaped bodice embellishment
   
 
http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/IsottaBrembatiGrumelli.jpg
   
  I'm sure there must be others out there.
   
  As to the extant item posted earlier (the one laid out flat post
conservation), it is, as I understand it, the very same one Janet Arnold
examined and discussed in Patterns of Fashion, which was indeed the burial
garment of Eleonora de Toledo. It too has a centre-front strip of
embroidery.
   
   
   
  Bella




Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 4/23/2006 6:17:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

but I  think the dating of the chest was 
absolutely precise. Most people nowadays  (and, I promise you, my 
college students included) think of time in only a  few categories: the 
future, now, their parents' "day," and "Yore." For  many Americans, 
"Yore" applies especially to anything before the American  Revolution, 



**
Some of my fave examples of this was when I worked for a costumeas in  
masquerade and Halloween...shop. They were trying their best to break out into  
theatre and such, but...alas.
 
Anyway, I'll never forget a blurb, in a catalogue, for a long full skirt:  
"Wear over hoopskirt for old-timey effect." Hahahaha! That became an inside 
joke 
 for any dreadfully off costume.
 
Another time, there was a couple who were going to a fancy dress party and  
were looking thru the slide show the shop had set up of couples wearing 
costumes  they had for rent that went with each other. The "Napoleon and 
Josephine"  
couple flashed up and the woman exclaimed "Why there's Queen Elizabeth and  
her husband!"
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 4/23/2006 12:14:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

The wore  their own repro 18thC uniforms 


***
 
And not paid any rental fee probably.
 
It was pretty forgettable. And not even about the "ideology" of the  
revolution, But just about [petty] revenge.
 
I'll stick with Mad Max.
 
I must admit, however, that the film "Revolution" with Al Pacino  and...oh  
what's her name?...Natasha Kinsky?is the WORST film about the  revolution 
ever!
 
No...I don't hate every movie madereally! For instance I love "Cyrano  de 
Bergerac" ... the one in French...with Gerard... which I just saw again the  
other night. Perfect!
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[Chris Laning]

At 6:22 PM -0400 4/23/06, Ruth Anne Baumgartner wrote:
... everything blends together into the look of Yore. That's why 
hennins, for example, seem to be appropriate headgear for The Merry 
Wives of Windsor?!?!?! etc.


Thank you for a very useful term! "Yore" it is.

On Apr 23, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Sharon L. Krossa wrote:
The more I learn about the entertainment industry, the clearer it 
becomes that "accuracy" is more an advertising buzz-word (used to 
attract audiences) than something truly pursued. That is, it is far 
more important to persuasively _claim_ accuracy than to actually 
_be_ accurate. (I'm know there are exceptions among individuals who 
work in these industries -- but in the industry as a whole...)


Besides, it's a lot easier and cheaper to just *claim* it than to 
actually *do* even a half-decent job of it.


At 6:50 PM -0700 4/21/06, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote:

I agree- the leading lady was SO out of period. I kept thinking one hat
looked more like it belonged in "Breakfast at Tiffany's". The costumes
bothered me more than the music.


"Leading Lady Syndrome" -- the Big Name Star playing the leading lady 
more or less gets to wear whatever she wants, even if that means it's 
wildly different from what everyone else is wearing. Often this means 
no corset, low necklines, clingy fabrics, modern hairstyles 
whatever _she_ thinks makes her look sexy. 


--


OChris Laning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Davis, California
+ http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 3:34 PM -0700 4/23/06, Lavolta Press wrote:

Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem
is when audiences believe what they see in films.


On the other hand, the benefit is that films, novels, and other
forms of fiction have gotten many people interested in historical
subjects who might well not have given them a second thought.
Except for getting a passing grade in required American History and
History of Civilization courses--and then forgetting almost all the
material immediately after finals.

Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor
particularly job-getting in our society. My bet is that most college
history professors seeing enthusiastic enrollment increase after a
major film for that era is released, waft a mental "Thanks!" to the
producers.

The reality, also, is that there's absolutely nothing you can do to
make the film industry work your way--unless you're a mogul in it.
You're just another viewer. If you don't like the film, get rid of
the DVD and view another one you like better.


You're missing the point of my comments:

"The problem  isn't that films are inaccurate" means that the problem 
isn't that films are inaccurate. Thus, since the problem isn't that 
films are inaccurate, the solution isn't for film makers not to make 
inaccurate films. (Which is just as well, since they _can't_ make 
films that are accurate -- all films, by their nature, are inaccurate 
to one degree or another. It is inevitable.)


The problem, as I said, "is when audiences believe what they see in 
films". The solution to that is to try to get more people to 
understand the nature of films -- such as that they are inevitably 
inaccurate -- and thus the appropriate and inappropriate uses of 
films, and to stop using them inappropriately, specifically, to stop 
using them as if they were reliable sources of historical information.


Now, admittedly, it would help a lot with this if movie makers would 
stop lying to their audiences by making false claims about the 
accuracy of their films. Personally, I'm not holding my breath on 
this, as unscrupulous movie makers show no signs of giving up lying 
about this or any other matter. (There are other movie makers who 
seem to do just fine without such lying, but my guess is the 
unscrupulous kind will always be with us...) So while I do urge movie 
makers to be more honest, my real target for change is movie 
watchers, not movie makers.


As for college history professors, their reactions to seeing 
enthusiastic enrollment increases after a major film varies greatly, 
depending not only on their individual personalities, but also the 
specific topic they are teaching and the degree of damage the 
particular film has done, and especially whether the students 
attracted believed what they saw or not. Many professors would rather 
have only 20 students truly interested in learning real history than 
200 students insisting they already know all the answers because they 
saw the movie and getting mad when the professor shatters those 
fondly held movie myths that "inspired" them to study history.


For as I said in a previous post -- teaching is a lot more fun than 
unteaching, and movies that bring students to the classroom usually 
also bring a lot of need for unteaching. Sometimes the balance is 
tolerable, sometimes it isn't. I know TFWNSNBU has resulted in me 
wasting a lot of time trying to unteach things that were never an 
issue before the film -- and in Scottish history we already had more 
than our fair share of things that need to be untaught just from the 
general culture. It is very easy for all the unteaching of what 
didn't happen to completely crowd out any positive teaching of what 
did.


But if more movie goers didn't use movies as if they were reliable 
sources of history...


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Lavolta Press]

Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem is 
when audiences believe what they see in films.


On the other hand, the benefit is that films, novels, and other forms of 
fiction have gotten many people interested in historical subjects who 
might well not have given them a second thought.  Except for getting a 
passing grade in required American History and History of Civilization 
courses--and then forgetting almost all the material immediately after 
finals.


Let's face it, history is neither particularly valued nor particularly 
job-getting in our society. My bet is that most college history 
professors seeing enthusiastic enrollment increase after a major film 
for that era is released, waft a mental "Thanks!" to the producers.


The reality, also, is that there's absolutely nothing you can do to make 
the film industry work your way--unless you're a mogul in it.  You're 
just another viewer. If you don't like the film, get rid of the DVD and 
view another one you like better.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com







___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[Ruth Anne Baumgartner]

I'm not now and never was a fan of the TV show "Friends," but it did 
yield one relevant cultural insight:
   One of the women was moving in with another one who loved antiques 
(Phoebe?). The new roommate (Monica?) bought a piece of furniture--an 
apothecary's chest, I think-- from Pottery Barn, only to learn that her 
roomie HATED Pottery Barn stuff, with its pseudo-antiquity. So Monica 
(?) pretended she had bought it at a flea/antiques market at a NYC 
location she couldn't recall. When asked what period the chest was 
from, she replied "Yore."
   I may have the characters wrong (we sometimes watch reruns when 
we're drifting off to sleep), but I think the dating of the chest was 
absolutely precise. Most people nowadays (and, I promise you, my 
college students included) think of time in only a few categories: the 
future, now, their parents' "day," and "Yore." For many Americans, 
"Yore" applies especially to anything before the American Revolution, 
and everything blends together into the look of Yore. That's why 
hennins, for example, seem to be appropriate headgear for The Merry 
Wives of Windsor?!?!?! etc. So, yes, I'm absolutely echoing what has 
already been said here: I just had to share what it's called.

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner
scholar gypsy and amateur costumer

On Apr 23, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Sharon L. Krossa wrote:


At 8:35 PM -0400 4/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Designers often use styles from the whole century all at once without
following the time line. They seem to do this more in the 18th
century than any
other.


I don't think they do it more in the 18th century than any other -- I 
think rather that the fashion time-span they squish together (rather 
than following the historical time line) in general increases the 
further removed from our own time period the historical setting is. 
So, for things set in the late 20th century, the fashions may compress 
a few years, for the early 20th century they might use styles from a 
decade or two, for the 19th century they might draw from several 
decades at once, for they 18th century the whole century, etc. And 
when the setting is medieval, they throw together styles spanning 
multiple centuries.


There appears to be a similar dynamic when it comes to cultures -- the 
further back the setting, people tend to be happy to squish together 
styles from ever more culturally and geographically far-flung places.


(Thus, for a movie set in a relatively narrow medieval time and place, 
you might see styles taken from half a millennium of time and culled 
from cultures half a world apart...)



Perhaps because the changes aren't a drastic as they are in the 19th
century. Although, I can't tell you how many 1840s and 1850s dresses
get used in Civil War epics!


I think it is more that the further back you go, the less people know 
and so care about the various distinctions. (And even if the costume 
designer knows, the audience is unlikely to.) A sort of the further 
away things are from their own experience -- in time or space -- the 
more it "all looks the same" to them effect. (Which also explains why 
those who _do_ learn all about a particular historical time/place 
don't think it all looks the same -- it's no longer far from their 
experience.)


I once worked for an LA designer who mainly did TV. He and his 
assistant
were snotty to us hayseeds [they thought] here in NC. His assistant 
with his
nose in the air gave me a speech on how carefully they had researched 
and how
the designer was a stickler for accuracy. Then he handed me to alter 
for the

...

Yeaha stickler for accuracy alright.

[For those who's period is not the mid 1800s, all those details
screamand I mean scream... 1840s]


The more I learn about the entertainment industry, the clearer it 
becomes that "accuracy" is more an advertising buzz-word (used to 
attract audiences) than something truly pursued. That is, it is far 
more important to persuasively _claim_ accuracy than to actually _be_ 
accurate. (I'm know there are exceptions among individuals who work in 
these industries -- but in the industry as a whole...)


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Historical Films

[Susan Carroll-Clark]

Greetings--

Sharon L. Krossa wrote:
Which, again, is why I prefer films such as A Knight's Tale and 
Shakespeare in Love, which include enough truly obvious anachronisms 
(such as modern rock music, psychiatrist jokes, modern coffee mugs, 
etc.), and attitude, to essentially scream out "If you use this movie 
as source of historical information, you're a fool" over movies such 
as TFWNSNBU, Elizabeth, and Kingdom of Heaven, which go out of their 
way, both in the film itself and in the promotion of the film, to try 
to persuade people that the film is historically accurate and real and 
true and can and should be used as a source of historical information 
-- that is, instead of screaming "If you use this movie as a source of 
historical information, you're a fool", they whisper seductively 
"Honest, really, we're not making this up -- believe us". 
The thing that gets me is that the movies in the former category (with 
the obvious anachronisms) often end up being more accurate and truer to 
the spirit of the period they are trying to portray than the supposedly 
"accurate" ones.  I enjoyed "Knight's Tale", despite a few clunkers here 
and there, because there are parts of the whole tourney circuit 
atmosphere and the way certain things are set up that are dead-on (and I 
have agreement on this from a historian of medieval tournaments).   Both 
movies also use humour in a way that reveals the past in a way a modern 
person might understand. 

One of the best examples of this is perhaps the best King Arthur movie 
ever made, the immortal "Monty Python and the Holy Grail."  The more you 
know about Arthurian legend and medieval history, the funnier it 
gets--although it's pretty funny even without a jot of knowledge about 
either.


Susan
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Movies, was: Knight's Tale

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 8:35 PM -0400 4/21/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Designers often use styles from the whole century all at once without
following the time line. They seem to do this more in the 18th
century than any
other.


I don't think they do it more in the 18th century than any other -- I 
think rather that the fashion time-span they squish together (rather 
than following the historical time line) in general increases the 
further removed from our own time period the historical setting is. 
So, for things set in the late 20th century, the fashions may 
compress a few years, for the early 20th century they might use 
styles from a decade or two, for the 19th century they might draw 
from several decades at once, for they 18th century the whole 
century, etc. And when the setting is medieval, they throw together 
styles spanning multiple centuries.


There appears to be a similar dynamic when it comes to cultures -- 
the further back the setting, people tend to be happy to squish 
together styles from ever more culturally and geographically 
far-flung places.


(Thus, for a movie set in a relatively narrow medieval time and 
place, you might see styles taken from half a millennium of time and 
culled from cultures half a world apart...)



Perhaps because the changes aren't a drastic as they are in the 19th
century. Although, I can't tell you how many 1840s and 1850s dresses
get used in Civil War epics!


I think it is more that the further back you go, the less people know 
and so care about the various distinctions. (And even if the costume 
designer knows, the audience is unlikely to.) A sort of the further 
away things are from their own experience -- in time or space -- the 
more it "all looks the same" to them effect. (Which also explains why 
those who _do_ learn all about a particular historical time/place 
don't think it all looks the same -- it's no longer far from their 
experience.)



I once worked for an LA designer who mainly did TV. He and his assistant
were snotty to us hayseeds [they thought] here in NC. His assistant with his
nose in the air gave me a speech on how carefully they had researched and how
the designer was a stickler for accuracy. Then he handed me to alter for the

...

Yeaha stickler for accuracy alright.

[For those who's period is not the mid 1800s, all those details
screamand I mean scream... 1840s]


The more I learn about the entertainment industry, the clearer it 
becomes that "accuracy" is more an advertising buzz-word (used to 
attract audiences) than something truly pursued. That is, it is far 
more important to persuasively _claim_ accuracy than to actually _be_ 
accurate. (I'm know there are exceptions among individuals who work 
in these industries -- but in the industry as a whole...)


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] TFWNSNBU (was: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 351)

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 9:30 AM -0400 4/22/06, Gail & Scott Finke wrote:

Sharon wrote:

 > No, the other Mel Gibson Scottish film.

I always thought The Film Whose Name Shall Not Be Uttered was the one with
the title ending "Prince of Thieves."

Around here, anyway.

Sorry if I caused any palpitations by writing even that much of it--


I have always used (and many others have picked it up) "That Film 
Whose Name Shall Not Be Uttered" (aka TFWNSNBU) for Mel Gibson's 1996 
film supposedly about William Wallace. It does not surprise me, given 
that it is a fairly obvious joke, that others use a similar phrase 
for other films they find particularly objectionable for one reason 
or another.


(I'm a trained Scottish historian, which is why TFWNSNBU gained that 
designation from me -- not so much due to the film being inaccurate 
as due to all the people who believe what they see in the film, and, 
even worse, tell others what they "know" about Scottish history based 
on what they saw in the film, usually without mentioning their source 
of "historical" information was a movie, etc.. The film has made 
necessary a lot of unteaching, which is annoying for many reasons, 
including that teaching is much more enjoyable than unteaching...)


Sharon

PS For those who still aren't sure what film I am referring to by 
"That Film Whose Name Shall Not Be Uttered", the actual title is 
uttered on the web page I mentioned before: 


--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Historical Films (was: Knight's Tale)

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 12:12 PM -0400 4/23/06, Carol Kocian wrote:

"Braveheart"
SharonC., who says "Macbeth" backstage too, and doesn't spit, turn around,
go out and come back in, etc.


I quite happily say Macbeth, and I don't really care if anyone else 
says in my presence the name of That Film Whose Name Shall Not Be 
Uttered (though I may spit ;-). I avoid saying the name as an 
expression of my feelings (which others may or may not share), not 
superstition.



 On the Revlist (American Revolution) some people will write
*spit* after they mention the movie, The Patriot.  It's a testament
to Mel that there are such reactions to his movies...


I don't find this reaction surprising, given that Mel in particular 
goes to great lengths to persuade audiences that his "historical" 
films are accurate, while at the same time not really bothering much 
with historical accuracy and essentially making the same movie over 
and over again. The resulting reaction to the supposedly historical 
films by those who care about history is predictable, and magnified 
by the popularity of his movies (which increases the numbers who 
believe the nonsense peddled as truth by Gibson).


(The Patriot *spit* and TFWNSNBU are essentially the same plot, which 
plot borrows a great deal from the plots of various contemporary and 
futuristic movies Mel has been in. Never mind that the real history 
he claimed to be portraying doesn't actually fit that plot...)


If Mel did not work so hard at selling his movies as accurate, he and 
his movies would not get the strong reaction they get for being so 
inaccurate.


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Historical Films (was: h-costume Digest, Vol 5, Issue 351)

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 5:53 AM -0400 4/22/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 4/22/06 6:05:50 AM GMT Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 > No, the other Mel Gibson Scottish film.

ah - but william wallace took York, you know;-)


[For those who don't know -- and there is no reason why most of you 
should, which is why I take the time to clarify here -- actually, he 
didn't. And there ain't no way anyone who doesn't already know that 
can figure it out from the film, where the fantasy William Wallace is 
shown taking York...]



I actually have one friend (Scottish) who rants for about half an hour every
time it's mentioned - on the basis of how large an insult it is to william
wallace to show him as basically a peasant (given he was actually a lowland
knight, and very well educated).

And then he starts on the tartan and blue faces


Nothing wrong with tartan, per se -- just the way the used it!

Anyway, the film in question does seem to be especially gratuitously 
historically inaccurate, but while that makes it particularly 
annoying to those with an affection for Scottish history, the real 
issue is not that TFWNSNBU is especially inaccurate, but that *all* 
films are historically inaccurate, and *no* film is or should be used 
as a reliable source of pre-modern historical information, yet, alas, 
many people none-the-less use films as sources of historical 
information, frequently encouraged by film makers who go to great 
lengths to persuade people that their films are "true" and "real".


Because it doesn't matter if 99% or 50% or only 25% of a film is 
inaccurate -- unless you are already an expert (and so, by 
definition, not using the film as a source of your information), you 
can't tell which bits are made up and which bits are accurate history.


Take, as an example of the difficulties of guessing what is and is 
not historically accurate, A Knight's Tale, recently mentioned. How 
many of you have assumed that a female smith was one of the film's 
anachronisms? If you did, you assumed wrong. Whether the movie makers 
knew it or not (and my guess is that they didn't know it), in 
Medieval England, at least, there were actually female smiths. What 
is accurate and what is inaccurate isn't obvious or at all something 
one can determine by watching the film -- even the film's makers 
rarely (if ever) know how much, or exactly which bits, of their film 
is pure fiction vs. historically plausible vs. historical fact. Not 
to mention that even when film makers do know, their goal is to make 
their film seemless, so the audience won't know...


Which, again, is why I prefer films such as A Knight's Tale and 
Shakespeare in Love, which include enough truly obvious anachronisms 
(such as modern rock music, psychiatrist jokes, modern coffee mugs, 
etc.), and attitude, to essentially scream out "If you use this movie 
as source of historical information, you're a fool" over movies such 
as TFWNSNBU, Elizabeth, and Kingdom of Heaven, which go out of their 
way, both in the film itself and in the promotion of the film, to try 
to persuade people that the film is historically accurate and real 
and true and can and should be used as a source of historical 
information -- that is, instead of screaming "If you use this movie 
as a source of historical information, you're a fool", they whisper 
seductively "Honest, really, we're not making this up -- believe us".


Because the problem isn't that films are inaccurate -- the problem is 
when audiences believe what they see in films.


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen

[otsisto]

The problem with bleach is that it likes to eat the fibers. Though one
washing shouldn't cause to much problem.
RIT has a product that is designed to remove bled in dyes. Try a bit on the
spot and then wash it in the product. I have found this works most of the
time.
If it is actually mold, I have found OxyClean to work. Spot treat and then
wash in using more Oxyclean. This works 90% of the time. I had a badly
molded cream brocade that I treated and washed 2 times in Oxy. Still have
the cream color but not the black splotches. I recommended the Oxy to a
person whose canvas tent siding was moldy. The side panels came clean. The
canopy has hints of gray. We don't know if it is because the panels were
washed in a washer and the canopy wasn't.

De



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] RE:fall front trousers, etc

[Five Rivers Chapmanry]

Carolyn,

What you're looking for can easily be found in the following two or
three patterns, all by Kannik's Korner, historically accurate with excellent
engineering, historical and sewing notes, all of which we carry, and can be
viewed, and purchased, at: http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_17.html :

KK4303 Man's Trousers, 1790-1810
KK4304 Outer Breeches-Slops 1750-1820
KK4551 Men's double-breasted Short Jacket

Hope you find this of some assistance.

Regards,
Lorina
Five Rivers Chapmanry
purveyors of historical sewing patterns, quality hand-crafted cooperage,
re-enactor and embroidery supplies, and more.
519-799-5577 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - www.5rivers.org
   5.. (Carolyn Kayta Barrows)



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat

[E House]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Yes, in the movie that was the nickname for the separatist/rebellion 
fighters, because of the long brown leather coats they wore.


It's also turned into the nickname for fans of Firefly/Serenity... there are 
Browncoat Balls, and there's a Browncoat charity organization (donating 
coats, oddly enough =} ) and so on.


But you know, in the series pilot (also called Serenity), the Browncoat 
soldiers were wearing something a lot more like Zoe's coat from Train 
Job I need to go back and do some more freeze-framing!  Mal's version of 
the coat is irresistable, but it would be neat to make one that looks as 
much like the 'real' brown coat as possible.


-E House
(OK, this DOES tie into historical costume, because if I can find some 
pre-1600 garment that looks even vaguely like a browncoat, my husband will 
wear it and attend SCA events with me!) 


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Help - underlay dilema

[REBECCA BURCH]

Help!!! - I washed the wool crepe for my son's new
garb, as suggested - in cold water and air dried.  The
gold for the doublet and slop panes came out fine, but
the burgundy for the slop underlay has turned out
looking like a fuzzy wool blanket!!!  Now what do I
do?

I don't have time to reorder fabric and the JoAnn's
here doesn't have any wool at all.  Is it kosher to
use something else besides wool?

Please remember this is my first time doing
historically accurate and it is more daunting than I
had expected.

Rebecca Burch
Center Valley Farm
Duncan Falls, Ohio, USA
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Knight's Tale

[Carol Kocian]

"Braveheart"
SharonC., who says "Macbeth" backstage too, and doesn't spit, turn around,
go out and come back in, etc.


 On the Revlist (American Revolution) some people will write 
*spit* after they mention the movie, The Patriot.  It's a testament 
to Mel that there are such reactions to his movies...


 Many people on the Revlist were extras in The Patriot, so they 
had even more personal investment in it.


 The wore their own repro 18thC uniforms (to keep it costume related!)

 -Carol
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

The 1840s is kind of late for what I'm doing.  I need that baggy seat, to 
cover my anatomy and to 'read' early, and I need the resultant trousers 
to stay up without suspenders.


Simplicity 4923 is fall-front with a baggy seat and does not use 
suspenders. It is taken from 'Cut of Men's Clothes' diagram XXII. The book 
dates it ~1760-65, but it does meet the design requirements you have.


The construction of the upper part seems like it would do.  I actually need 
longer trousers, not breeches, but making this pair longer will be a 
trivial alteration compared to turning a modern fly-front pattern into a 
fall-front one.


Yes, I think it will do nicely.  Thank you.

   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

 ///\
-@@\\\
      7 )))
)((  <> ))(
 * )   ( *
  /\   /---\

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen

[monica spence]

What about a diluted solution of chlorine bleach? That always works on
whites for me.
Monica Spence

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Sharon at Collierfam.com
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:24 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen


I've used it and had luck with it, but it weakens fabric (it says). Try
acetone first.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Diana Habra
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:14 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen



> I've read all the posts about the mouldy linen but what about a white
> linen that dye has bled into?  I have heavy white linen and it has
> blue black stains on it from another fabric that was touching it.

Rit makes something called "color remover".  I haven't used it myself but it
may help your linen.

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

"Become the change you want to see in the world."
--Ghandi

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen

[Adele de Maisieres]

Gwen wrote:
I've read all the posts about the mouldy linen but what about a white 
linen that dye has bled into?  I have heavy white linen and it has 
blue black stains on it from another fabric that was touching it.




Try an oxygen-based bleach.  If that doesn't do it, chlorine bleach.

--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Habeo metrum - musicamque,
hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
-Georgeus Gershwinus
-


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: Center strip on Eleonora's gowns (WasRE: [h-cost] Tudor Tailor....a review)

[Bella]

monica spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >The dresses worn by Eleonora in her Bronzino portraits usually 
don't have
that center strip down the CF. You can surmise that is there from the pictures 
where she wears a zimarra (surcoat). Where you do see the strip come from the 
hands of copyists, or students of Bronzino or from his workshop-- not from the 
master himself.
   
   
   
  I believe this one is stated to be by the master himself...
   
  http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?45823+0+0
   
  Just thinking out loud here -  perhaps the centre-front strip owes its 
existance more to a then current fashion (1550s-1560s I mean) for decorating 
bodices of plain fabric (as opposed to figured fabric), than to a 
copyist/school of Bronzino. 
   
  There are very few images of Eleonora. Of those of her in a non-figured 
fabric, the above image (1560s, by Bronzino himself) shows a centre-front strip 
of embroidery, and only one of her (the pink one by Bronzino) which does not 
show it is dated from the 1540s...
  http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Angelo_Bronzino_040.jpg
   
  So perhaps it is rather the date of the portrait which explains why "the 
dresses worn by Eleonora in her Bronzino portraits usually don't have that 
center strip down the CF".
   
  As for evidence from the 1550s-1560s centre-front strip of 
embroidery/embellishment, I can only think of one earlier image (from Bergamo 
rather than Florence) of the 1550s that features a centre-front strip, albeit 
in a fan-shaped rather than T-shaped bodice embellishment
   
  http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/IsottaBrembatiGrumelli.jpg
   
  I'm sure there must be others out there.
   
  As to the extant item posted earlier (the one laid out flat post 
conservation), it is, as I understand it, the very same one Janet Arnold 
examined and discussed in Patterns of Fashion, which was indeed the burial 
garment of Eleonora de Toledo. It too has a centre-front strip of embroidery.
   
   
   
  Bella




Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale

[Becky]

Yes that's it. I couldn't rmember the term. Thanks.
- Original Message - 
From: "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'Historical Costume'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knight's Tale



Aramaic?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Becky
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:45 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale


No they were speaking a dialect from that time. It is suppose to be the 
same


language Jesus spoke. I can't think of what it is called rigght now. But 
it

isn't pict or galic.
- Original Message - 
From: "Sue Clemenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale



ROTFLMAO!!!
--Sue

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale




In a message dated 4/22/2006 12:45:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

No, the  other Mel Gibson Scottish film




"The Passion of the Christ"?

Weren't they speaking Pict?
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

[h-cost] Smithsonian's National Museum of American History

[Cozit / Liz]

It's occurred to me that I'd forgotten to make sure I mentioned this on 
this list.


For any of you who have been planning to visit the Smithsonian's 
National Museum of American History, where the First Ladies' dresses are 
(and right now a suit of Benjamin Franklin's has been on display for a 
while as well) as well as a number of Presidential clothing pieces, and 
I believe a few odds and ends in other exhibits as well...


The NMAH is going to be closing for a few years' worth of rennovations 
right after Labor Day (first Monday in September, for those non-US folks 
here).  Also, a number of exhibits will be closing by sometime in July.  
The FAQs are here:  
http://americanhistory.si.edu/about/faq.cfm?key=55&faqkey=96


(oh, and while I *hope* *hope* *hope* that the rennovations will stay on 
schedule, one only has to look over at the Portrait Gallery to see that 
sometimes they don't manage to... so come one, come all and check it out 
while you can... I doubt that it'd be shorter than the 2 year time span 
that we've been told.)


Hmm... speaking of the National Portrait Gallery... for those of you 
into American historical costuming, it's scheduled to re-open this 
summer.  July is the date being given.


-Elisabeth
(I've been a docent there in several of their programs for a number of 
years now... and yes, I'm keeping track so I can go play there some more 
when it re-opens, and there *may* be related things for me to do 
docent-y type-wise while they're closed... we'll see)


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen

[Sharon at Collierfam.com]

A cheap remover for marker is acetone.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Susan B. Farmer
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:55 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mouldy linen/dyed linen


Quoting Gwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I've read all the posts about the mouldy linen but what about a white
> linen that dye has bled into?  I have heavy white linen and it has 
> blue black stains on it from another fabric that was touching it.
>

 From another list ...



- Forwarded message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:25:45 -0400
From: jen funk segrest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [sca-bead] Got a stain on your garb?
  To: App list list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I did. I was showing someone at RUM a few weeks ago how to do viking
wire knitting and the pen I was using as a mandrel had the cap off
and garb beneath had a HUGE permanent ink marker stain. All the way
through two dresses to my skin.

I had washed the viking apron, it's old I wasn't out anything, and
taken alcohol to it to vainly try to get it out (don't use that I
found out).

The large dime sized black dot on the front right above the belt line
on my grey herolfnes underdress was the worst, it's my main piece of
garb right now. I wisely hadn't washed since it happened, but had
taken some alcohol to the smaller spots.   I knew washing could set
in stains so I let it alone. it's been sitting in my hamper since
while I researched some options.

I found this stuff recommended on the Sharpie marker site called Amodex.
http://www.amodexink.com/

A quick google search found me several places that had it and I
ordered a 1oz bottle. It came today. It claims to remove ink of all
kinds, grease, food, berry, blood, the works. Basically if it's a
stain it'll take it out on ANY fabric or surface.

I have to say this crap works. At least on permanent marker on
fabric! WOW!

It's very much like a dishwashing liquid in appearance an
consistancy, it comes with a brush. I could see each successive
application of a few drops and rubbing working by the spot underneath
go from a bloody yellow to  yellow to a beige to barely anything at
all. Took about a half hour and over a dozen applications of the
liquid but by the end I had a hard time spotting the I was working
on. And it took out the smaller ones.

It also, though, removed most of the stain on my viking apron as
well, and it had been washed before. but the results are not NEARLY
as impressive as the unwashed dress.

After the washing I just put the dresses in for I expect it to be
nearly invisible on the grey dress. Definitely wearable without being
under another dress even.

Just wanted to pass on a good product we probably will all need at
some point. I have a ton left (probably only used a tablespoon's
worth) and happy to have it in case of a future incident.

If anyone wants the link to buy where i got it from email me. You can
also order some direct from the manufacturer in larger and travel sizes.

I highly suggest buying one before you need it. I wish I'd found it
years ago.

griz


This email is allowed to be:
[x] Shared
[x] Forwarded
[ ] Used as documentation
[x] Tattoed on butt in 72 point Times New Roman



Susan


-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

I guess you misunderstood me about the date.


I guess I did.  I thought you were talking about an existing pair of 
trousers from the first quarter of the 19thC.  I couldn't find the Eagle 
pattern online, to compare with.



  The pattern is about 1780's.
As Suzi has suggested, the basic FullFall pattern was well established the
last quarter of the 18thC and  the long version continued in use for about
100 years until the slim style came into vogue. If you use the ...Eagle
pattern as it is presented, you will have the style you are seeking.
- Original Message -
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.


>
> >Carolyn, I have a pair of trousers from the first quarter 19th C and they
> >are constructed pretty much the same as the LongFall of the ...Eagle
pattern
> >that included knickers.  The two major differences are the width of the
> >waist band and the back omits the capacious seat and gusset. No pockets,
but
> >the from is cut full enough to accommodate them.  There are buttons for
> >straps or suspenders.  Basically, the naval trou still being used through
> >the 1940's.
>
> The 1840s is kind of late for what I'm doing.  I need that baggy seat, to
> cover my anatomy and to 'read' early, and I need the resultant trousers to
> stay up without suspenders.  Does the Eagle pattern do that?  Is it a good
> pattern otherwise?
>
>
> CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>   www.FunStuft.com
>
>   ///\
>  -@@\\\
>    7 )))
>  )((  <> ))(
>   * )   ( *
>/\   /---\
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

 ///\
-@@\\\
      7 )))
)((  <> ))(
 * )   ( *
  /\   /---\

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat

[Dawn]

Becky wrote:

Is a "browncoat" something more than just a brown coat? Like a British 
Redcost?



Yes, in the movie that was the nickname for the separatist/rebellion 
fighters, because of the long brown leather coats they wore.




Dawn


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.

[Dawn]

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:




The 1840s is kind of late for what I'm doing.  I need that baggy seat, 
to cover my anatomy and to 'read' early, and I need the resultant 
trousers to stay up without suspenders. 


Simplicity 4923 is fall-front with a baggy seat and does not use 
suspenders. It is taken from 'Cut of Men's Clothes' diagram XXII. The 
book dates it ~1760-65, but it does meet the design requirements you have.





Dawn


___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat

[Becky]

Is a "browncoat" something more than just a brown coat? Like a British 
Redcost?
- Original Message - 
From: "Avien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:19 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat


Hehe!  I've made my husband a browncoat, Mal's suit from Shindig, and
several Wash-style Hawaiian shirts.  For me, I am mostly a Kaylee person
having made the jumpsuit and fluffy dress.  I've done one Inara - the gold
and black one from Serenity, and working on several more this year.  So much
fun and I love seeing pics of other people doing Firefly costumes.  I love
the browncoat posted!  It looks great!

I can't provide any help with the pattern either, I completely drafted it
but it was really easy.
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.

[Lloyd Mitchell]

I guess you misunderstood me about the date.  The pattern is about 1780's.
As Suzi has suggested, the basic FullFall pattern was well established the
last quarter of the 18thC and  the long version continued in use for about
100 years until the slim style came into vogue. If you use the ...Eagle
pattern as it is presented, you will have the style you are seeking.
- Original Message - 
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] fall front trousers, etc.


>
> >Carolyn, I have a pair of trousers from the first quarter 19th C and they
> >are constructed pretty much the same as the LongFall of the ...Eagle
pattern
> >that included knickers.  The two major differences are the width of the
> >waist band and the back omits the capacious seat and gusset. No pockets,
but
> >the from is cut full enough to accommodate them.  There are buttons for
> >straps or suspenders.  Basically, the naval trou still being used through
> >the 1940's.
>
> The 1840s is kind of late for what I'm doing.  I need that baggy seat, to
> cover my anatomy and to 'read' early, and I need the resultant trousers to
> stay up without suspenders.  Does the Eagle pattern do that?  Is it a good
> pattern otherwise?
>
>
> CarolynKayta Barrows
> dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
>   www.FunStuft.com
>
>   ///\
>  -@@\\\
>    7 )))
>  )((  <> ))(
>   * )   ( *
>/\   /---\
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>

___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

Re: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat

[Avien]

Hehe!  I've made my husband a browncoat, Mal's suit from Shindig, and
several Wash-style Hawaiian shirts.  For me, I am mostly a Kaylee person
having made the jumpsuit and fluffy dress.  I've done one Inara - the gold
and black one from Serenity, and working on several more this year.  So much
fun and I love seeing pics of other people doing Firefly costumes.  I love
the browncoat posted!  It looks great!

I can't provide any help with the pattern either, I completely drafted it
but it was really easy.
___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

RE: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat

[Silvara]

Love it!!
I'm currently working on one of Inara's outfits.

Silvara


> [Original Message]
> From: A. Thurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: 
> Date: 4/22/2006 11:54:51 AM
> Subject: [h-cost] Re: Firefly browncoat
>
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:54:30 -0500
> > From: "E House" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale
> > To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > Shiny! =}
> >
> > Ob costume comment--Inara has some pretty darn spiffy outfits, and I
made my
> > husband a suede browncoat.
>
> Fellow "browncoat" here! Probably a better question for the f-costume
> list, but seeing as you brought it up:
>
> What pattern (if any) did you use for your husband's browncoat? I'm
> toying with making Zoey's outfit.
> >
> > -E House
>
> Allison T.
>
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume



___
h-costume mailing list
h-costume@mail.indra.com
http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume