Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[michaela de bruce]

> Ah Ha!  
> http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html
>
> I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an under 
> dress with this kind of cuff...

This type of sleeve appears quite often in dress of Cologne. They are
separate sleeves (and here are made with a damask) and come in a
variety of styles and are definitely not underwear. But I suspect that
what is seen at the neck is a partlet.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Barthel_Bruyn_3.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Bartholom%C3%A4us_Bruyn_d._%C3%84._003.jpg
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=22046

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Bruyn_Anne_of_Cleves.jpg
I don't think this shows a dress and undersleeve but it shows this
sort of cuff treatment is associated with outerlayers.

The most common type is very fitted and usually of a piled fabric. But
here are even some with short fur turnbacks.

There are some Saxon images that show what may be a coloured "shirt"
type garment.
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/1525cranyounglady.htm  (Ignore
the text, I think the person who told me about the painting was
talking about the gown not the inner layer.)
And another of one of the Emperors but in his case (painted terracotta
bust) it looks like there is a high necked shirt underneath.

Michaela de Bruce
(Cleves/Cologne is my "pet" area and I have been trawling through
appropriate extant texts to find information. So far the undersleeves
appear quite often in one huge inventary with the goller, suggesting
they were ordered together and have a similar function- warmth and
decoration.)
http://glittersweet.com
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Ron Carnegie]

You do get colored shirts in the 19th century, but they are still underwear. 
Meant to be worn under other clothing.


Ron Carnegie

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?




In a message dated 1/18/2008 3:56:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Anyone  know when shirt became applicable to "over the underwear" rather
than the  first layer?





Well, it depends on whether it's cold or not, I would think.

And, y'know, that early Louis XIV "petticoat breeches" period shows oodles
of shirt. I mean a ridiculous amount! And it all looks white, even if 
adorned

with colored embroideries or ribbons. In the sixteenth century, shirts are
pretty much white.

As to natural fiber colors...especially in the lower classes, I can't say.
And don't you start to get striped and calico [as in floral prints] 
shirts,

albeit rarely, in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth  centuries?



**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Marie Stewart]

It could be a 'waistcoat' , sometimes called a 'shirt' in inventories,
meaning a layer for warmth.  Usually you find them as flannen,
flannel, rarely lined silk, or sometimes linsey-woolsey, other
materials are possible, I'm just not at my resources.  2cents reading
out of context.  Mari

On Jan 18, 2008 2:47 PM, Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fair enough, but I don't think the query required it to be "underwear" per 
> se.  Anyone know when shirt became applicable to "over the underwear" rather 
> than the first layer?
>
> Sg
>
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 1/18/2008 3:56:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Anyone  know when shirt became applicable to "over the underwear" rather 
than the  first layer?




 
Well, it depends on whether it's cold or not, I would think.
 
And, y'know, that early Louis XIV "petticoat breeches" period shows oodles  
of shirt. I mean a ridiculous amount! And it all looks white, even if adorned  
with colored embroideries or ribbons. In the sixteenth century, shirts are  
pretty much white.
 
As to natural fiber colors...especially in the lower classes, I can't say.  
And don't you start to get striped and calico [as in floral prints] shirts,  
albeit rarely, in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth  centuries?



**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 1/18/2008 1:51:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This  appears to be false sleeves and not sleeves of a  hemd.



***
 
Indeed. I mean it's lined in red. Does that sound like a "shirt" or  chimese?



**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape. 
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[AlbertCat]

 
In a message dated 1/18/2008 1:58:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

3. In a  book I have about the Throckmortons (but I'm
at the office, not at home, of  course), a gentleman's
letter to his factor requests a certain amount  of
tawney fabric for a shirt. Whether we are to take
"tawney" as a color  or as a type of fabric, I don't
know. 



**
 
Tawny being usually a light color, and in the orange/sandy/cream range [and  
the orange part seems to be a later definition] he could just mean an 
off-white  shirt rather than white-white, or perhaps an unbleached raw  linen.



**Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape. 
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Ron Carnegie]

20th century, for european use.




- Original Message - 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?


Fair enough, but I don't think the query required it to be "underwear" per 
se.  Anyone know when shirt became applicable to "over the underwear" rather 
than the first layer?


Sg




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Found it! -  Colored shirts in the 16th century?
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:48:25 -0600
CC:

This appears to be false sleeves and not sleeves of a hemd.

De

-Original Message-
Ah Ha!
http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html

I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an under
dress with this kind of cuff...

Sg

FYI - If you ever need a hi res picture of this collection, they are very
helpful...a few years ago, they sent me two for free!




> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:27 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CC:
>
> Thank you for that suggestion. I am on the list, and
> have sent off the question and hopefully Ninya or
> someone else there might know more.
>
> And do you have a link to your portrait? That would
> help.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> --- Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't have the answer to your question, but you
> > might want to ask on the Renaissance Costume list.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRenaissanceTailor/
> 
> > I have a portrait of a Netherlander's (or maybe it
> > is German) women's costume which has a blue shirt.
> >
> > Sg
> >
>
>
>


> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
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RE: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Saragrace Knauf]

Fair enough, but I don't think the query required it to be "underwear" per se.  
Anyone know when shirt became applicable to "over the underwear" rather than 
the first layer?  

Sg



> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Found it! -  Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:48:25 -0600
> CC: 
> 
> This appears to be false sleeves and not sleeves of a hemd.
> 
> De
> 
> -Original Message-
> Ah Ha!
> http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html
> 
> I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an under
> dress with this kind of cuff...
> 
> Sg
> 
> FYI - If you ever need a hi res picture of this collection, they are very
> helpful...a few years ago, they sent me two for free!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:27 -0800
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > CC:
> >
> > Thank you for that suggestion. I am on the list, and
> > have sent off the question and hopefully Ninya or
> > someone else there might know more.
> >
> > And do you have a link to your portrait? That would
> > help.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Kimiko
> >
> >
> > --- Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I don't have the answer to your question, but you
> > > might want to ask on the Renaissance Costume list.
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRenaissanceTailor/
> > 
> > > I have a portrait of a Netherlander's (or maybe it
> > > is German) women's costume which has a blue shirt.
> > >
> > > Sg
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and
> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> >
> > ___
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Chris Laning]

Sharon wrote:
>At 6:55 AM -0700 1/18/08, Saragrace Knauf wrote:
>>Ah Ha!
>>http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html
>>
>>I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an
>>under dress with this kind of cuff...
>
>The portrait shows the garment as being lined, however -- or 
>magically blue on the outside and red on the inside. Whatever it is, 
>I really don't think this is persuasive evidence for colored 
>underwear (shirts).

To me, the clincher is that you *can* see a shirt or partlet in the front gap 
of the gown, at and below the neckline -- and it's white, just as one would 
expect. There's no sign of the blue-and-red garment in that front opening, 
which to me says that it must be open all the way down the front. I've never 
seen a cuff like that on an underdress either, but I'd be more willing to 
accept that it's an undergown with odd cuffs than a shirt that is open all the 
way to the waist :).


0  Chris Laning
|  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+  Davis, California
http://paternoster-row.org  -  http://paternosters.blogspot.com

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Re: [h-cost] Venice Carnival Hat Etiquette?

[Suzi Clarke]

At 19:27 18/01/2008, you wrote:

Anybody know the etiquette of whether hats are worn indoors or not a t the
Venice Carnival?

For some customers whose outfits am making.




Look at Pietro Longhi for examples, but my feeling is that they did.

Suzi

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[h-cost] Diversarum nationum habitus

[Beth and Bob Matney]

I went looking for PIETRO BERTELLI's Diversarum 
nationum habitus (late 16th C Italian costume) 
and found several very interesting sites along 
the way. Ain't serendipity wonderful!


Thought that I'd pass them along and the links to 
the images of Diversarum nationum habitus in case 
anyone else might be interested.


Beth

---
AN ANALYTIC BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ON-LINE NEO-LATIN TEXTS
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/bibliography/index.htm

one of the sites that it indexes is
FONDAZIONE ISTITUTO INTERNAZIONALE DI STORIA ECONOMICA "F. DATINI"
LIBRARY ONLINE - Images for economic and social history
http://www.istitutodatini.it/biblio/images/en/presenta.htm
"Thanks to our collaboration with a number of 
important Italian libraries, we are in the 
process of acquiring and cataloguing images in 
manuscripts and printed volumes produced between 
the 14th and the 15th century. "


--
Cover and entry
http://www.istitutodatini.it/biblio/images/it/riccard/12886/

St. 12886, PIETRO BERTELLI, Diversarum nationum habitus.
Patavii, apud Alciatum Alcia et Petrum 
Bertellium, 1594-1596 - incisore: Pietro Bertelli

http://www.istitutodatini.it/biblio/images/it/riccard/12886/htm/elenco.htm

http://www.istitutodatini.it/biblio/images/it/riccard/12886/htm/vol1.htm
Vol. 1 - DIVERSARUM NATIONUM/ HABITUS/ Centum, et 
quattuor iconibus in/ aere incisis diligenter 
expressi/ item/ ORDINES DUO PROCESSIONUM /Unus/ 
SUMMI PONTIFICIS /Alter/ SERENISS. /Principis 
Venetiarum/ opera/ PETRI BERTELLII. /Ad Ill.um D. 
Io. Reinhardum Comite/ ab Hanau et D. in 
Liechtemburg./ Apud Alciatum Alcia et/ Petrum Betellium. Patavij./1594

[3] c., 2 tav., 104 (ma 94) ill.
   * 
Fig. 
3 - Vergine veneta
   * 
Fig. 
4 - Senatore veneto
   * 
Fig. 
5 - Vedova veneta
   * 
Fig. 
6 - Cortigiana veneta
   * 
Fig. 
6 - Cortigiana veneta (sotto il vestito)
   * 
Fig. 
13 - Giureconsulto padovano
   * 
Fig. 
15 - Mercante ebreo padovano
   * 
Fig. 
14 (ma 16) - Medico padovano
   * 
Fig. 
17 - Venditrice di frutta e verdura padovana
   * 
Fig. 
18 (ma 20) - Venditore di ricotta padovano
   * 
Fig. 
19 - Nobile matrona mantovana
   * 
Fig. 
22 (ma 23) - Contadina bolognese
   * 
Fig. 
28 - Donna sposata romana
   * 
Fig. 
31 - Nobile napoletana
   * 
Fig. 
32 - Cavaliere di Malta
   * 
Fig. 
37 (ma 34) - Rettore dell'Università di Parigi
   * 
Fig. 
41 - "Navicularis Britannus" detto volgamente Bretone
   * 
Fig. 
43 - Nobile sposa di Danzica
   * 
Fig. 
44 - Patrizio della Germania inferiore in abito solenne
   * 
Fig.45 
- Cavaliere germanico in abiti domestici
   * 
Fig. 
60 - Venditrice di pane macedone
   * 
Fig. 
75 (ma 66) - Medico giudeo, vestito secondo l'uso costantinopolitano
   * 
Fig. 
90 (ma 82) - Cuoco dell'imperatore turco
   * 
Fig. 
103 (ma 91) - Pellegrino de La Mecca


Le 
tavole: 13, 37, 67, 75, 90 si trovano anche 
presso la Biblioteca Casanatense di Roma.
N. XII. 38/1 CC - Diversarum nationum habitus 
centum et quattuor inconibus inaere incisis 
diligenter expressi, item ordines duo 
preocesionum, unus Summi Pontificis, 

[h-cost] Venice Carnival Hat Etiquette?

[Debloughcostumes]

Anybody know the etiquette of whether hats are worn indoors or not a t the  
Venice Carnival?
 
For some customers whose outfits am making.
 
 
Debbie



   
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[MaggiRos]

I have in my search for documentation on this subject
found 3, count'em, 3, but they're sketchy as evidence
goes.

1. King Edward VI's coronation shirtwas crimson or
scarlet (I forget which, but it was red). Presumably
this is not a good dample for the rest of us, since a)
he was a king and b) it was a coronation. The red was
probably emblematic of sacrifice or war or something.
This is listed in Herbert Norris's detail of the
coronation garb, in whichever volume that is. 

2. I have been told--though I can't remember by whom--
that Philip Sidney's post-mortem inventory listed a
black shirt, but I haven't seen this myself.

3. In a book I have about the Throckmortons (but I'm
at the office, not at home, of course), a gentleman's
letter to his factor requests a certain amount of
tawney fabric for a shirt. Whether we are to take
"tawney" as a color or as a type of fabric, I don't
know. 

That's all I got. References with page number
available on request.

MaggiRos

--- "Sharon L. Krossa"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 6:55 AM -0700 1/18/08, Saragrace Knauf wrote:
> >Ah Ha!
>
>http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html
> >
> >I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but
> I've never seen an
> >under dress with this kind of cuff...
> 
> The portrait shows the garment as being lined,
> however -- or 
> magically blue on the outside and red on the inside.
> Whatever it is, 
> I really don't think this is persuasive evidence for
> colored 
> underwear (shirts).
> 

Vikings? What Vikings? We are but poor, simple farmers. The 
village was burning when we got here.

Anon.
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RE: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[otsisto]

This appears to be false sleeves and not sleeves of a hemd.

De

-Original Message-
Ah Ha!
http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html

I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an under
dress with this kind of cuff...

Sg

FYI - If you ever need a hi res picture of this collection, they are very
helpful...a few years ago, they sent me two for free!




> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:27 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CC:
>
> Thank you for that suggestion. I am on the list, and
> have sent off the question and hopefully Ninya or
> someone else there might know more.
>
> And do you have a link to your portrait? That would
> help.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Kimiko
>
>
> --- Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't have the answer to your question, but you
> > might want to ask on the Renaissance Costume list.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRenaissanceTailor/
> 
> > I have a portrait of a Netherlander's (or maybe it
> > is German) women's costume which has a blue shirt.
> >
> > Sg
> >
>
>
>


> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
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Re: [h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Sharon L. Krossa]

At 6:55 AM -0700 1/18/08, Saragrace Knauf wrote:

Ah Ha!
http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html

I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an
under dress with this kind of cuff...


The portrait shows the garment as being lined, however -- or 
magically blue on the outside and red on the inside. Whatever it is, 
I really don't think this is persuasive evidence for colored 
underwear (shirts).


Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, PhD  -  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
   Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
   The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
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[h-cost] Found it! - Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Saragrace Knauf]

Ah Ha!  
http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen_ing/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom605.html

I suppose one could argue this isn't a shirt, but I've never seen an under 
dress with this kind of cuff...

Sg

FYI - If you ever need a hi res picture of this collection, they are very 
helpful...a few years ago, they sent me two for free!




> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:27 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CC: 
> 
> Thank you for that suggestion. I am on the list, and
> have sent off the question and hopefully Ninya or
> someone else there might know more.
> 
> And do you have a link to your portrait? That would
> help.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Kimiko
> 
> 
> --- Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I don't have the answer to your question, but you
> > might want to ask on the Renaissance Costume list.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRenaissanceTailor/
> 
> > I have a portrait of a Netherlander's (or maybe it
> > is German) women's costume which has a blue shirt.
> > 
> > Sg
> > 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Be a better friend, newshound, and 
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 
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RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?

[Saragrace Knauf]

I will look for it this evening...I am pretty sure it is in the 
Thyssen-Bornemisza collection, but can't put my finger on this morning.

Sg



> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:00:27 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Colored shirts in the 16th century?
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CC: 
> 
> Thank you for that suggestion. I am on the list, and
> have sent off the question and hopefully Ninya or
> someone else there might know more.
> 
> And do you have a link to your portrait? That would
> help.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Kimiko
> 
> 
> --- Saragrace Knauf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I don't have the answer to your question, but you
> > might want to ask on the Renaissance Costume list.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheRenaissanceTailor/
> 
> > I have a portrait of a Netherlander's (or maybe it
> > is German) women's costume which has a blue shirt.
> > 
> > Sg
> > 
> 
> 
>   
> 
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