Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
- Original Message - From: Karen Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have the right bust and hips, but no way is my waist that tiny - and when it was many years ago the rest of me was also much tinier. Ay yi yi! Hey, it only said that the _grace_ could not be acquired by artificial means. It didn't say that the measurements couldn't! -E House (has the 42 hips, at least...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
Glaring at E-houseWell I have the bust and hips measurements! But not the height and waist. I think I was 5' 6 in fifth grade. By 6th grade I was heading to 5' 11. I grew a lot that year. The hips came from that time of life and my was size was 24 before son #4. E-house at least you have grace...not me! BTW, E-house are you a princess with all that grace? Fashion designer Jean Patou is actually the one who is responsible for tall thin models. He brought six, 6-foot tall American models to Paris. He paraded the models around wherever he went in Paris. Of course, they were wearing his latest creations. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeslideshows.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
- Original Message - From: Penny Ladnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW, E-house are you a princess with all that grace? Hey, I never said I had grace--just 42 hips! My point was that the description didn't rule out using artificial means to achieve the _physical_ measurements. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
E-house, Okay...but I will give you grace! so you can be the model today! There is no way I can get shorter. Mentioning artificial enhancements...at this moment I am putting slides online of a beautiful bodice from 1895-1897. It has built-in bust enhancements. The descriptions are not there at this moment but go to www.costumeslideshows.com and click on the VCU slideshow for 1890s ladies' fashions. The first bodice, slides 17-19 show the enhancements. I just loaded this bodice's photos and in the process of numbering them. These are not really shields for under the arms, but go across the bustline. They are heavily padded. The passwords to the site for the free weekend are: Login: cg2003 Password: ccr6972 I also have photos from the VCU collection of a beautiful early 1960s evening gown with enhancements made in the bust. It will be awhile before I have it online. The dress is very Marilyn Monroe skin tight style. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeslideshows.com - Original Message - From: Exstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894??? - Original Message - From: Penny Ladnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW, E-house are you a princess with all that grace? Hey, I never said I had grace--just 42 hips! My point was that the description didn't rule out using artificial means to achieve the _physical_ measurements. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
It's not quite 1840s but here's a fashion plate from 1852 showing a nurse http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1852_4.shtml (presumably a nurse would wear similar clothes to a maid) I think a dark coloured wool in a somewhat conservative cut (nobody likes their servants dressing above their station) would be the most sensible style for somebody who is doing potentially messy work (unless it was so messy you would want a cotton wash dress) a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads). Clean, starched, white aprons were also important for female servants when they were 'on display' in a sense (e.g. when answering the door or serving visitors) as another badge of servitude it showed their status and that they hadn't been doing any messy work (or at least not recently). I know this is later than your period, but Isabella Beeton's book of household management outlines the duties of various servants and sometimes includes references to clothing http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/b/beeton/isabella/household/chapter41.html You may also find images of servants in the background in some royal portraits http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/category.asp?category=AAPICTURESrow=0 HTH Elizabeth - Original Message - From: Serena Dyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:01 AM Subject: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants Does anyone know of any quotes or pictorial sources for what house maids or a ladies' maid would be wearing in the 1830s-40s? I have been asked to make servants' dress of this date for historical interpretation, and am trying to find a source to replicate which will challenge the black gown/white apron look, which our visitors seem to associate with them. Thanks Serena Dyer http://www.pemberleydesigns.co.uk http://www.dressing-history.co.uk ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
Have you looked at The Workwoman's Guide by a Lady? It was published originally in 1838, and republished in 1986 by Opus Publications. On page 110 of my copy is a description (with a tiny pattern elsewhere) of a High Full Gown, to open in front ... particularly suitable for house-maids, dairy or kitchen maids, chair [char?] and washerwomen; I'm betting there are other descriptions, but I'm not finding them at the moment. Regards, Deb Salisbury The Mantua-Maker Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns Renaissance to Victorian www.mantua-maker.com Does anyone know of any quotes or pictorial sources for what house maids or a ladies' maid would be wearing in the 1830s-40s? I have been asked to make servants' dress of this date for historical interpretation, and am trying to find a source to replicate which will challenge the black gown/white apron look, which our visitors seem to associate with them. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
I would think that a nurse would probably have worn something to identify her profession from a maid or servant. What about the BBC series upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) or did they have the sterio type uniforms? There should be several BBC series that show maids in uniforms. -Original Message- It's not quite 1840s but here's a fashion plate from 1852 showing a nurse http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1852_4.shtml (presumably a nurse would wear similar clothes to a maid) I think a dark coloured wool in a somewhat conservative cut (nobody likes their servants dressing above their station) would be the most sensible style for somebody who is doing potentially messy work (unless it was so messy you would want a cotton wash dress) a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads). Clean, starched, white aprons were also important for female servants when they were 'on display' in a sense (e.g. when answering the door or serving visitors) as another badge of servitude it showed their status and that they hadn't been doing any messy work (or at least not recently). I know this is later than your period, but Isabella Beeton's book of household management outlines the duties of various servants and sometimes includes references to clothing http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/b/beeton/isabella/household/chapter41.h tml You may also find images of servants in the background in some royal portraits http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/category.asp?category=AAPICTURES; row=0 HTH Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
This period is before Florence Nightingale gave nursing it's prestige. Before her work in the Crimean War, nursing was not a particularly skilled or important job- most women did it more or less by default. I doubt there would have been an identifiable uniform for a nurse in the 1840's. Karen Seamstrix -- otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would think that a nurse would probably have worn something to identify her profession from a maid or servant. What about the BBC series upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) or did they have the sterio type uniforms? There should be several BBC series that show maids in uniforms. -Original Message- It's not quite 1840s but here's a fashion plate from 1852 showing a nurse http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1852_4.shtml (presumably a nurse would wear similar clothes to a maid) I think a dark coloured wool in a somewhat conservative cut (nobody likes their servants dressing above their station) would be the most sensible style for somebody who is doing potentially messy work (unless it was so messy you would want a cotton wash dress) a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads). Clean, starched, white aprons were also important for female servants when they were 'on display' in a sense (e.g. when answering the door or serving visitors) as another badge of servitude it showed their status and that they hadn't been doing any messy work (or at least not recently). I know this is later than your period, but Isabella Beeton's book of household management outlines the duties of various servants and sometimes includes references to clothing http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/b/beeton/isabella/household/chapter41.h tml You may also find images of servants in the background in some royal portraits http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/category.asp?category=AAPICTURES; row=0 HTH Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8fb5xPmtHLFvOoOXp1Ymw6R8RtGLDQHWNOYOJ9KTwrdu/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
At 18:22 31/05/2008, you wrote: I would think that a nurse would probably have worn something to identify her profession from a maid or servant. What about the BBC series upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) or did they have the sterio type uniforms? There should be several BBC series that show maids in uniforms. -Original Message- It's not quite 1840s but here's a fashion plate from 1852 showing a nurse http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1852_4.shtml (presumably a nurse would wear similar clothes to a maid) I think a dark coloured wool in a somewhat conservative cut (nobody likes their servants dressing above their station) would be the most sensible style for somebody who is doing potentially messy work (unless it was so messy you would want a cotton wash dress) a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads). Clean, starched, white aprons were also important for female servants when they were 'on display' in a sense (e.g. when answering the door or serving visitors) as another badge of servitude it showed their status and that they hadn't been doing any messy work (or at least not recently). I know this is later than your period, but Isabella Beeton's book of household management outlines the duties of various servants and sometimes includes references to clothing http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/b/beeton/isabella/household/chapter41.h tml You may also find images of servants in the background in some royal portraits http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/category.asp?category=AAPICTURES; row=0 HTH Elizabeth The fashion plate is not actually of a nurse, but a nursemaid, and as such is not the same as a household servant. She ranks alongside a lady's maid, and although she is wearing dark clothing, was not expected to wear uniform. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Occupational-Costume-England-Eleventh-Century/dp/B00166AA20/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1212255187sr=1-8 This should have the information you require. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
At 18:28 31/05/2008, you wrote: This period is before Florence Nightingale gave nursing it's prestige. Before her work in the Crimean War, nursing was not a particularly skilled or important job- most women did it more or less by default. I doubt there would have been an identifiable uniform for a nurse in the 1840's. During the Crimean War nurses at Scutari did not wear uniforms, as you say. They wore clean white aprons as a sign of their profession, which was not considered respectable, in most places. (A new biography on her has just been shown on British TV, which, of course I missed, but there were articles in several papers/magazines.) Uniforms were, I believe a later innovation, when the Nightingale School was instituted at St. Thomas's Hospital in London, when Miss Nightingale returned from the Crimea. Suzi Karen Seamstrix -- otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would think that a nurse would probably have worn something to identify her profession from a maid or servant. What about the BBC series upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) or did they have the sterio type uniforms? There should be several BBC series that show maids in uniforms. -Original Message- It's not quite 1840s but here's a fashion plate from 1852 showing a nurse http://www.marquise.de/en/1800/pics/1852_4.shtml (presumably a nurse would wear similar clothes to a maid) I think a dark coloured wool in a somewhat conservative cut (nobody likes their servants dressing above their station) would be the most sensible style for somebody who is doing potentially messy work (unless it was so messy you would want a cotton wash dress) a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads). Clean, starched, white aprons were also important for female servants when they were 'on display' in a sense (e.g. when answering the door or serving visitors) as another badge of servitude it showed their status and that they hadn't been doing any messy work (or at least not recently). I know this is later than your period, but Isabella Beeton's book of household management outlines the duties of various servants and sometimes includes references to clothing http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/b/beeton/isabella/household/chapter41.h tml You may also find images of servants in the background in some royal portraits http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/eGallery/category.asp?category=AAPICTURES; row=0 HTH Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Save on Moving Supplies. Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oij8fb5xPmtHLFvOoOXp1Ymw6R8RtGLDQHWNOYOJ9KTwrdu/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
In a message dated 5/31/2008 1:30:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) Upstairs/Downstairs takes place in the 20th century. Like 1908, 1910, 1912, or bothit ran a long time. By then each servant position had it's own uniform, just about. I remember an episode where one of the chambermaids is promoted to Nursemaid. She is ridiculed for wearing her special uniform, proudly, before she has actually taken over the position. And it's too late not to late but you knew that. I would think [though I'm guessing from what I knowand you want documentation] the cut of a maid's gown would be practical [open CF, not too full a skirt] with all the aprons, sleeve guards and what-nots she needed to do her job. Fabrics would be dark or grey and washable...unless she was answering the door and then she might have a plain silk. But not a real uniform. Of course manservants usually dealt with the public I thinky'know, the butler answering the door. Then there are the Great households. Would they still have livery? A la 18th century? Just for the evening or also during the day? **Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch Cooking with Tyler Florence on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?NCID=aolfod000302) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
At 19:15 31/05/2008, you wrote: In a message dated 5/31/2008 1:30:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: upstairs/downstairs (this might be to late) Upstairs/Downstairs takes place in the 20th century. Like 1908, 1910, 1912, or bothit ran a long time. By then each servant position had it's own uniform, just about. I remember an episode where one of the chambermaids is promoted to Nursemaid. She is ridiculed for wearing her special uniform, proudly, before she has actually taken over the position. And it's too late not to late but you knew that. I would think [though I'm guessing from what I knowand you want documentation] the cut of a maid's gown would be practical [open CF, not too full a skirt] with all the aprons, sleeve guards and what-nots she needed to do her job. Fabrics would be dark or grey and washable...unless she was answering the door and then she might have a plain silk. But not a real uniform. Of course manservants usually dealt with the public I thinky'know, the butler answering the door. Then there are the Great households. Would they still have livery? A la 18th century? Just for the evening or also during the day? The British Royal Household servants still wear uniform, livery and all for State occasions - think Coronation, Royal Wedding, coaches for the State Opening of Parliament etc. In Queen Victoria's day the men servants wore the equivalent of black morning suits, with cutaway coats - there are photos. (It was sometimes difficult to tell the butler from the Lord!!) Many of the great households have had photos of their servants, all of whom would have worn some kind of uniform, such as aprons for the gardeners, caps and aprons for maids etc. However, for the date required it is highly unlikely these photos would be of any help, although uniform is very fossilised. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
Even using artificial means, there's no way I could get down to 24. I don't compress that much - especially as short-waisted as I am. This does explain the look of the fashion illustrations, and why I always thought I was never going to recreate that look - I can't! The killer is that some people could/still can! Karen On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:50:11 -0500 Exstock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Karen Heim [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have the right bust and hips, but no way is my waist that tiny - and when it was many years ago the rest of me was also much tinier. Ay yi yi! Hey, it only said that the _grace_ could not be acquired by artificial means. It didn't say that the measurements couldn't! -E House (has the 42 hips, at least...) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Could you be a model in 1894???
I'm also terminally outta luck--5'10 and just can't win. Too fat to be a model today, too tall to be a model any other time. (And you'd think that what with models today being 7' tall, it'd be a bit easier to find clothing for tall people...) The great thing about being into historical costume, though, is you can always find some era that really works well with your figure. Pretty much every figure has been fashionable somewhere sometime! It's very liberating. I've caught myself wanting to gain weight many times. I look at doughnuts and think, well, I do want to fit into those old comfy jeans again, but think how smashing I'd look in an Italian Ren if I invited it and all its little round friends into my stomach. (Actually, now that I think about it, a lot of the historical styles designed for skinny people wind up looking best on more substantial people. Like Franco-Flemish late 14th/early 15thC cotes; sure, they were designed for the waifish splindly armed set, but you stuff a belly and some triple Fs into a bust supporting fitted cote and WOW.) -E House m doughnuts ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Can you help me with this costume?
I am attending a Restoration Ball and do not have a costume. However, I do have one I made a few weeks ago, an 1830 daydress. I know these are completely different eras, but I'm desperate. I was wondering if anyone thought I might be able to add something/do something to this gown (without ruining it) to make it wearable for this ball, English late 17th Century. I am not looking for historical accuracy, just to look close to period, so it is truly 'dress-up'. One day I will make the proper outfit, I do have a pattern, but right now I do not have the time. The picture of my gown is at http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v252/251/81/59547/n59547_417939_7562.jpg Many thanks, Aylwen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
a cap was a badge of servitude for many years after other women had abandoned them (even into the early 20th century you see maids and waitresses in restaurants wearing some sort of remnant of a cap on their heads) I can recall most waitresses wearing caps and aprons well into the 1960's, in rural California. I think nurse's caps were more of a professional symbol, though. I believe each nursing school had its own cap design. I remember being in the hospital as a child, in 1967 or so, and being entranced with one nurse whose cap was a frilly little lampshade thing. I remember her saying it was a real pain to iron. Margo ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] help please! need of 16th century shirts
Can anyone help? I have someone in need of 16th century woman's high-necked smock who does not sew well. I probably do not have time to make one for her. In a quick scan online, I wasn't happy with what I was seeing. Does anyone know of a reputable source with good historic shirts at a reasonable price? Thanks! *** Rebecca Schmitt aka Agness Cabot, Guilde of St. Lawrence Bristol Renaissance Faire My arms are too short to box with God. --Johnny Cash *** ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1830s-40s Servants
Reading various posts makes me more confident that this suggestion might be helpful: try looking at the illustrations to Charles Dickens' novels. David Copperfield is, if I recall correctly, 1850, but much of it is set earlier, in David's boyhood and adolescence, making the period of the illustrations 1820-1840. Several other novels AND The Pickwick Papers are earlier. The illustrations, mostly by Phiz, are wonderful, and show characters of many classes and callings. I'd bet there's a lady's maid or a housemaid, or both, in there somewhere. Sorry don't have online sources, but any library would have the books. And speaking of books, is London Labour and the London Poor too early? I associate it with Dickens' time but might be wrong. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On May 26, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Serena Dyer wrote: Does anyone know of any quotes or pictorial sources for what house maids or a ladies' maid would be wearing in the 1830s-40s? I have been asked to make servants' dress of this date for historical interpretation, and am trying to find a source to replicate which will challenge the black gown/white apron look, which our visitors seem to associate with them. Thanks Serena Dyer http://www.pemberleydesigns.co.uk http://www.dressing-history.co.uk ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
