Re: [h-cost]Canadian (Lattice) Smocking
De, I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. To my eyes this is definitely slashing or embroidery meant to look like slashing. If you look at other depictions of slashing, you'll see the same look--lines that are heavier in the middle, narrower on the ends, and not connected: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan11.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/EdwardHoby1.jpg Also, sleeves of strapwork (or even lattice smocking, should it turn out to have existed) are one thing, but a whole skirt of it seems less plausible. If you look at depictions of strapwork, on the other hand, you see a completely different look. The lines for the edges of the straps are even in thickness and connect to the next perpendicular strap so that it's clear they're passing over and under each other: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan2.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth4.jpg (side of the bodice) Melanie Schuessler otsisto wrote: If you look at the dress it is not slashing. It could be strips of velvet woven together but I am more inclined to believe that it is lattice work. The embroidery (or small pinking) and the spangles are emphisizing the the woven look. http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/canadian.php http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth12.jpg Please compare the first picture to the portrait's sleeve. I know that there are two other portraits out there that show the sleeves to have what looks like lattice work but I can't seem to remember which portraits, one was Italian. De ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Canadian (Lattice) Smocking
The white on the black is either slashes or embroidery, so we agree on that. What we don't agree with is the smocking and the gold bits. Spangles were used in period and I believe that there are a few garments that Elizabeth I wore that had them. I believe that they are spangles (there were different sizes) because you can see them under the lace cuffs. As if they were polished metal and not a cloth of gold shimmer. If supported correctly the lattice work can be used in a skirt. If you look at http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/canadian.php Imagine the raised bars closer together (this can be done) and done in a little heavier material that is supported in back. Then take every other raised bar and embroider/pink it and the others spangle it and you have the design pattern of the portrait. http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth12.jpg The sleeves are what convinces me that they are latticework because of the way the design lays. So I guess agree to disagree. De -Original Message- De, I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. To my eyes this is definitely slashing or embroidery meant to look like slashing. If you look at other depictions of slashing, you'll see the same look--lines that are heavier in the middle, narrower on the ends, and not connected: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan11.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/EdwardHoby1.jpg Also, sleeves of strapwork (or even lattice smocking, should it turn out to have existed) are one thing, but a whole skirt of it seems less plausible. If you look at depictions of strapwork, on the other hand, you see a completely different look. The lines for the edges of the straps are even in thickness and connect to the next perpendicular strap so that it's clear they're passing over and under each other: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan2.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth4.jpg (side of the bodice) Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Canadian (Lattice) Smocking
If I can steer this conversation away from the portrait of Queen Elizabeth, I believe that the original question was about this Italian Gown http://www.wga.hu/art/b/bronzino/2/panciat2.jpg susan (of 2 minds about the portrait of Elizabeth -- I can see it either way!) - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost]Canadian (Lattice) Smocking
If you look at the bodice, which is not slashed, you see the pattern of the material is the same as the sleeves and skirt, same spacing of large and small dots. That argues for slashing, since the smocking would have changed the distance between dots. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Melanie Schuessler Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:31 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]Canadian (Lattice) Smocking De, I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. To my eyes this is definitely slashing or embroidery meant to look like slashing. If you look at other depictions of slashing, you'll see the same look--lines that are heavier in the middle, narrower on the ends, and not connected: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan11.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/EdwardHoby1.jpg Also, sleeves of strapwork (or even lattice smocking, should it turn out to have existed) are one thing, but a whole skirt of it seems less plausible. If you look at depictions of strapwork, on the other hand, you see a completely different look. The lines for the edges of the straps are even in thickness and connect to the next perpendicular strap so that it's clear they're passing over and under each other: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan2.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth4.jpg (side of the bodice) Melanie Schuessler otsisto wrote: If you look at the dress it is not slashing. It could be strips of velvet woven together but I am more inclined to believe that it is lattice work. The embroidery (or small pinking) and the spangles are emphisizing the the woven look. http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/canadian.php http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth12.jpg Please compare the first picture to the portrait's sleeve. I know that there are two other portraits out there that show the sleeves to have what looks like lattice work but I can't seem to remember which portraits, one was Italian. De ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Canadian (Lattice) Smocking
The smocking would not change the distance of the spangles if you are using the Latticework smocking. http://www.savvyseams.com/techniques/canadian.php The spangles would be running along the ridge of the lattice. http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth12.jpg I guess why I am stuck on the notion that this is latticework is because twenty years ago I saw a dress in dark blue velvet, sleeves and bodice done in latticework and it looked similar to EI's sleeves. I remember this because the only time prior to that I saw it on pillows that my Aunt Betty made back in the 70s. De -Original Message- If you look at the bodice, which is not slashed, you see the pattern of the material is the same as the sleeves and skirt, same spacing of large and small dots. That argues for slashing, since the smocking would have changed the distance between dots. -Original Message- De, I'm afraid we must agree to disagree. To my eyes this is definitely slashing or embroidery meant to look like slashing. If you look at other depictions of slashing, you'll see the same look--lines that are heavier in the middle, narrower on the ends, and not connected: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan11.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/EdwardHoby1.jpg Also, sleeves of strapwork (or even lattice smocking, should it turn out to have existed) are one thing, but a whole skirt of it seems less plausible. If you look at depictions of strapwork, on the other hand, you see a completely different look. The lines for the edges of the straps are even in thickness and connect to the next perpendicular strap so that it's clear they're passing over and under each other: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownMan2.jpg http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Elizabeth4.jpg (side of the bodice) Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
