Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Not getting into the whole copyright issue, as I'm not a lawyer, and it's one of the most complex laws there is, because of the international agreements (it's automatic here, btw, in the uk)... ...also as I have read the first part of the thread However, purely for the sake of clarity, libel is written, slander is spoken. In a message dated 13/05/2010 06:29:17 GMT Daylight Time, h-costume-requ...@indra.com writes: Fran, calling someone a thief before you truly know that a theft has been committed can possibly land you with a slander suit. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an international company. Dealing with the copyright side of my work often takes much more time than the actual work. Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of any single country. Let's say that countries A through Y consider a sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original work of art. However, country Z considers this to be copyright infringement, therefore no artists contributing to this company can sell sketches of an existing work of art. OK, fine, but multiply that by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of the situation. Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds someone of some work of art they saw somewhere. An examination of previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you are screwed. Now, I want to protect my intellectual property. I've had it stolen in the past, and I didn't like it. I put in the painfully time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating copyright. But I read the draconian copyright laws that my fellow artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think have already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another business entirely. Many--not all, but many--basically take the attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it. It's insane, and it's killing art. Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as possible. While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or that style, to get a feel for how it was done. This has been going on for centuries, and has produced great works of art. If you study--even very off-handedly--the artists that, for example, we costume people spend a lot of time with, like Holbein or Duerer or Da Vinci, you'll find that they were copying each other left and right. This does not mean that the product of that copying was any less an original work of art. This does mean that by today's standards, every single great artist for the past umpteen number of centuries has been a copyright violator, and in today's courts would be metaphorically drawn and quartered for it. It makes me want to heave. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
It makes me want to heave. But, as you've noted, the law is what you have to follow when using other people's work, not your personal standards. I have not noticed at all that art is being killed. Certainly, in terms of publications, there is a huge increase in the number of books published in recent years, and the text and illustrations in those must also conform to copyright law. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:48 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing... It makes me want to heave. But, as you've noted, the law is what you have to follow when using other people's work, not your personal standards. I have not noticed at all that art is being killed. Certainly, in terms of publications, there is a huge increase in the number of books published in recent years, and the text and illustrations in those must also conform to copyright law. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Oh yes, then you're using the willful confusion argument. Looking and reading are not the same as copying. Copyright law literally governs the right to make copies. Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 11:36 AM, Lavolta Press wrote: On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Again, all I see here is people who don't want to bother paying for material or asking permission (pirates and parasites), so they go round, and round, and round, and round, and round with arguments about why they personally shouldn't. Sorry, your feelings and your personal convenience do not govern copyright law. Fran And, speaking of bugaboos--it's the exact same people! Every discussion, the same ones are popping up all confused about whether reading a book is the same as copying it, and so on. People explain it to them, then the next discussion they're going round, and round, and on, and on, and on, and on with it. I can only conclude that the goal is to make h-costume a cozy little warez site, where everyone pets everyone else for pirating for the public good. Which, however, has nothing to do with what the copyright holder can do about it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Fran, it sounds like you are saying that legally there is no such thing as fair use. If that's not the case, could you explain what constitutes fair use? OChris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
No Chris, I am not going to get run around on this one yet again, diligently looking up stuff for people who say they are confused and who then go round and round being yet more confused, all to the end of asserting they can do whatever they feel like. Read some books on copyright law. Fran On 5/13/2010 12:20 PM, Chris Laning wrote: Fran, it sounds like you are saying that legally there is no such thing as fair use. If that's not the case, could you explain what constitutes fair use? O Chris Laning clan...@igc.org - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
For everyone who is terribly confused, here is a place to start. http://www.copyright.gov/ Understand that copyright violation can cost you huge sums of money in damages plus attorney's fees (which also tend to be large for those kinds of cases.) It's usually best to stick with a conservative interpretation of the law unless you are willing to go pay an attorney for a legal opinion on your specific question. Dan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
I was just curious. Is it infringement if it's just to one person? For an exchange of information? -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:37 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing... On 5/13/2010 11:29 AM, Sharon Collier wrote: I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends. Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture. If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend to look at. Is that copyright infringement or fair use? If the friend wants to look at the picture because they are merely interested in it, not if they are planning on using it commercially. Often I have friends who are looking for an example of a piece of clothing, so we can go to our costume mistress and say, Here is an example of the piece I want to wear. Sigh. Every time anyone brings up copyright law, people then go on and on about reasons why they personally should get an exemption from it. Your being someone's friend does not give you an exemption, and your offering something to several hundred people via an email list most certainly does not give you an exemption. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Simple answer, yes. Although you might manage to dig through copyright law and find an exception, I wouldn't know where. I was just curious. Is it infringement if it's just to one person? For an exchange of information? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
Such clarity. Your thoughtful explanation is of great interest to me...one of those independents who strives to do Art with originality as well as craft. The laws that have been developed are suppose to be safe=guards... -Original Message- From: Elena House exst...@gmail.com Sent 5/13/2010 12:04:48 PM To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...I've had to learn way more about copyright law than I ever wanted because I got into producing royalty free stock illustrations for an international company. Dealing with the copyright side of my work often takes much more time than the actual work. Since it is a truly international company, contributors have to abide by ALL international copyright laws, which means that we wind up having to follow a set of rules that are much stricter than those of any single country. Let's say that countries A through Y consider a sketch made by an artist of an existing work of art to be an original work of art. However, country Z considers this to be copyright infringement, therefore no artists contributing to this company can sell sketches of an existing work of art. OK, fine, but multiply that by about 1978302187091, and you'll get some idea of the thorniness of the situation. Even if I create a work of art without reference to absolutely anything including live models, in my own uninfluenced style, I am still open to prosecution in some countries if the end result reminds someone of some work of art they saw somewhere. An examination of previous copyright infringement lawsuits indicates that to be legally safe, artists should simply never ever ever look at anyone else's artwork, period, because if they can prove that you reasonably could have seen the existing work of art (not DID, but could have) then you are screwed. Now, I want to protect my intellectual property. I've had it stolen in the past, and I didn't like it. I put in the painfully time-consuming research time to make sure that I'm not violating copyright. But I read the draconian copyright laws that my fellow artists either A) want to implement or B) incorrectly think have already been implemented, and it makes me want to find another business entirely. Many--not all, but many--basically take the attitude that if anyone so much as thinks about their artwork, much less sees it, they should get a whopping big payment for it. It's insane, and it's killing art. Traditionally, artists have been encouraged to look at as much art as possible. While being trained, we're told to copy this painting or that style, to get a feel for how it was done. This has been going on for centuries, and has produced great works of art. If you study--even very off-handedly--the artists that, for example, we costume people spend a lot of time with, like Holbein or Duerer or Da Vinci, you'll find that they were copying each other left and right. This does not mean that the product of that copying was any less an original work of art. This does mean that by today's standards, every single great artist for the past umpteen number of centuries has been a copyright violator, and in today's courts would be metaphorically drawn and quartered for it. It makes me want to heave. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] copyright law thing...
On 5/13/2010 2:30 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Such clarity. Your thoughtful explanation is of great interest to me...one of those independents who strives to do Art with originality as well as craft. The laws that have been developed are suppose to be safe=guards... And they are. There is absolutely zero evidence that art is being hindered in any way by copyright law or enforcement of same. Note that copyright law is intended to further art by giving artists, composers, writers, etc. a basis for getting paid. Note also that copyright law often does not mean you cannot use someone else's work. It means you may need to ask permission (which may be refused), and you may have to pay. You cannot fairly complain that use of all works is utterly stifled by it. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
