Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
it's clear that FP ideas are becoming mainstream _without_ any need of help from the financial community This is far from clear - unless you want to deny that the financial community has had any impact on FP... due to Objective C with its Smalltalk influence ...and it's interesting to note that, had it not been for the financial community there's a strong chance that NeXT / Objective-C would have died years ago (finance were one of their main markets). --Ben On 12 Aug 2010, at 03:03, Richard O'Keefe wrote: On Aug 11, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Ketil Malde wrote: Sure, if the premise is that investment banks (or the military) are evil, then it is morally questionable to support them. If these are the major consumers of functional programming, one might question the ethics of working on FP in general as well. But as I interpreted this thread, the premise was not about the morality of specific sectors, but rather that finance takes away too much of the FP talent. One (but only one, and I do not say the major one) of the aspects of the global financial crisis is that bankers created a number of advanced financial instruments which nobody really knew how to value. Advanced computational models were developed for the purpose. People were warning about this 10 years ago or more; I bought a couple of books about it from a remainder shop. If functional programming gets associated in the profession's eyes with *that* kind of programming, it will not do FP any good. In any case, what with lambda expressions already in Apple's C (of all languages!), it's clear that FP ideas are becoming mainstream _without_ any need of help from the financial community. (Actually, that particular one is probably due to Objective C with its Smalltalk influence, so the functional origin here is ultimately Lisp.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Henning Thielemann schlepp...@henning-thielemann.de writes: about functional programming jobs in investment banking ... I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. I'm not sure I follow this opinion in general. Analogously I could say: Supporting military is a good idea, since they invest in new technologies. Sure, if the premise is that investment banks (or the military) are evil, then it is morally questionable to support them. If these are the major consumers of functional programming, one might question the ethics of working on FP in general as well. But as I interpreted this thread, the premise was not about the morality of specific sectors, but rather that finance takes away too much of the FP talent. My opinion is that we should rather appreciate business or organizations willing to fund FP - perhaps especially for evil organizations, where funds would otherwise go to more nefarious purposes. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
On 11 Aug 2010, at 08:30, Ketil Malde wrote: ng on FP in general as well. But as I interpreted this thread, the premise was not about the morality of specific sectors, but rather that finance takes away too much of the FP talent. My opinion is that we should rather appreciate business or organizations willing to fund FP - perhaps especially for evil organizations, where funds would otherwise go to more nefarious purposes. Investment banking has long been at the forefront of adopting niche languages ... I know people who worked on APL in banks, and now J (http://www.jsoftware.com/ ) and Q (http://kx.com/Products/kdb+.php). Even Perl was big in the finance industry, before the web brought it into the mainstream. If you want to work on real world problems (and asset allocation is a real problem) then this is the place to be... Until the rest of the world catches up. Cheers, G ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Investment banking isn't likely to lead to improvements in zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms. Given that an investment bank could (purely hypothetically of course ;-) use - say - paramorphisms as their fundamental approach to processing a deeply-embedded DSEL, I wouldn't be too quick to rule them out of improvements to recursion combinators... And, more generally, Investment Banking has interesting problems to solve, smart people working there, and a willingness to use (and improve) cutting-edge technology. IMHO, all of these are good things. --Ben On 10 Aug 2010, at 19:56, wren ng thornton wrote: Henning Thielemann wrote: about functional programming jobs in investment banking ... Ketil Malde schrieb: Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com writes: (Yes, I realize that's were the money is [...]) Exactly. I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. I'm not sure I follow this opinion in general. Analogously I could say: Supporting military is a good idea, since they invest in new technologies. That's not my opinion. Maybe the next financial crisis leads us into the next world war. But that analogy is a bit disingenuous. If investment bankers care so much about performance (because a few milliseconds delay in transactions can cost a lot) then getting a lot of talented functional programmers in finance means there will be a good deal of work in figuring out how to improve performance. Thus, anyone who wants performance will benefit directly; regardless of attendant outcomes. While the military invests in technology, they invest mainly in technology that advances a particular goal. Thus, it's good for them to have smart people if you would like improvements to that particular kind of technology. (Which includes the Internet and natural language processing ---for very militaristic reasons, both of them---, as well as the obvious.) Investment banking isn't likely to lead to improvements in zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms. If that's where you think we need to be improving our technology, then having smart people in investment banking doesn't help. But that's a different claim than the claim that they'd improve performance or overall acceptance in the job market. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
On Aug 11, 2010, at 7:30 PM, Ketil Malde wrote: Sure, if the premise is that investment banks (or the military) are evil, then it is morally questionable to support them. If these are the major consumers of functional programming, one might question the ethics of working on FP in general as well. But as I interpreted this thread, the premise was not about the morality of specific sectors, but rather that finance takes away too much of the FP talent. One (but only one, and I do not say the major one) of the aspects of the global financial crisis is that bankers created a number of advanced financial instruments which nobody really knew how to value. Advanced computational models were developed for the purpose. People were warning about this 10 years ago or more; I bought a couple of books about it from a remainder shop. If functional programming gets associated in the profession's eyes with *that* kind of programming, it will not do FP any good. In any case, what with lambda expressions already in Apple's C (of all languages!), it's clear that FP ideas are becoming mainstream _without_ any need of help from the financial community. (Actually, that particular one is probably due to Objective C with its Smalltalk influence, so the functional origin here is ultimately Lisp.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
New technologies are usually introduced by smart people who have the vision, and drive to communicate the benefits of doing it differently and usually better to their peers, and seniors. Few senior IT people will have any FP knowledge, or maybe exposure to the mathematical or CS fundamentals of FP over imperative programming. New technologies need an environment where spending can afford a degree of risk. I the UK, few graduates outside a limited set will have experienced Haskell, OCAML, or Erlang. The talented will dabble for the fun of it. Once MS push F#, the situation will change. Look at the history and acceptance of C++ in the 1990's. -- Andrew in Edinburgh,Scotland. A Haskell convert On 11 August 2010 08:30, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: Henning Thielemann schlepp...@henning-thielemann.de writes: about functional programming jobs in investment banking ... I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. I'm not sure I follow this opinion in general. Analogously I could say: Supporting military is a good idea, since they invest in new technologies. Sure, if the premise is that investment banks (or the military) are evil, then it is morally questionable to support them. If these are the major consumers of functional programming, one might question the ethics of working on FP in general as well. But as I interpreted this thread, the premise was not about the morality of specific sectors, but rather that finance takes away too much of the FP talent. My opinion is that we should rather appreciate business or organizations willing to fund FP - perhaps especially for evil organizations, where funds would otherwise go to more nefarious purposes. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Remember that Banks/Financial Firms/Investment Banks were among the first big uses of punch card readers, mainframes, cobol, C, C++ (and OOP), VBA, Java.. I'm not saying if I like any of those languages (my presence on this list should give a clue how I feel) but investment banks picking up FP and Haskell bodes quite well for Haskell in the future. Max On Aug 10, 2010, at 12:59 AM, Tom Hawkins wrote: Good, we need more functional programmers actually solving real problems. But please put your skills to work in an industry other than investment banking. I've received a lot mail on this comment; mostly positive. Here's one from someone who wishes to remain anonymous: First of all I would like to say that I like your work regarding e.g. Atom. Second, I would like to know what exactly is bad about a Haskell job in investment banking as a lot of good programmers work in this industry. It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I believe investment banking is important, but does it really need to dominate a large percentage of the world's top tier programmers? Is computing the risk of derivative contracts more important than pursuing sustainable energy, new drug discovery, improving crop yields, etc. Some will argue investment banking enables all of these things -- and I'm sure many people in the industry go to work everyday feeling proud of their contributions. But I just think most of this talent is going in to improve the bottom line and little else. (Yes, I realize that's were the money is, and that's who's hiring. Actually I'm very glad. Investment banking is the first industry to adopt functional programming on a large scale. And others will follow.) -Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Of course Banks/Financial Firms/Investment Banks want software that is correct, secure, and logs transactions. Aspects are great for cross-cutting concerns like security and logging; as in AspectJ. For correctness, functional programming has that. With monads its easy to add logging and security. Something the BCLC (British Columbia Lottery Corporation) has missed entirely. :) On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:05:50 +0800, you wrote: Remember that Banks/Financial Firms/Investment Banks were among the first big uses of punch card readers, mainframes, cobol, C, C++ (and OOP), VBA, Java.. I'm not saying if I like any of those languages (my presence on this list should give a clue how I feel) but investment banks picking up FP and Haskell bodes quite well for Haskell in the future. Max On Aug 10, 2010, at 12:59 AM, Tom Hawkins wrote: Good, we need more functional programmers actually solving real problems. But please put your skills to work in an industry other than investment banking. I've received a lot mail on this comment; mostly positive. Here's one from someone who wishes to remain anonymous: First of all I would like to say that I like your work regarding e.g. Atom. Second, I would like to know what exactly is bad about a Haskell job in investment banking as a lot of good programmers work in this industry. It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I believe investment banking is important, but does it really need to dominate a large percentage of the world's top tier programmers? Is computing the risk of derivative contracts more important than pursuing sustainable energy, new drug discovery, improving crop yields, etc. Some will argue investment banking enables all of these things -- and I'm sure many people in the industry go to work everyday feeling proud of their contributions. But I just think most of this talent is going in to improve the bottom line and little else. (Yes, I realize that's were the money is, and that's who's hiring. Actually I'm very glad. Investment banking is the first industry to adopt functional programming on a large scale. And others will follow.) -Tom -- Regards, Casey ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com writes: Second, I would like to know what exactly is bad about a Haskell job in investment banking as a lot of good programmers work in this industry. It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I believe investment banking is important, but does it really need to dominate a large percentage of the world's top tier programmers? I suspect it is because it is an industry where software performance matters. Doing things just a bit better than your competitors can make all the difference (and a big difference) to the bottom line. Thus it is an industry that is willing to invest in new technology. Most other industry seems to be conservative; nobody got fired for choosing IBM, nobody gets criticized for choosing Java. Being good enough is usually sufficient, you don't have to be best, or even better. Is computing the risk of derivative contracts more important than pursuing sustainable energy, new drug discovery, improving crop yields, etc. More important? - I don't know. More willing to invest in software quality - apparently. (Yes, I realize that's were the money is [...]) Exactly. I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I'm not sure that is really true. You might see more adverts for financial jobs, but often those jobs may be advertised multiple times, because different headhunters see an opportunity to earn a slice of the pie. By contrast, non-financial FP jobs are likely to be advertised only once, or not at all, because candidates are easily found. Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Rather than high turnover it indicates (in my experience) that it's difficult to fill positions in finance. That's one reason they are advertised repeatedly. On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@me.com writes: It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I'm not sure that is really true. You might see more adverts for financial jobs, but often those jobs may be advertised multiple times, because different headhunters see an opportunity to earn a slice of the pie. By contrast, non-financial FP jobs are likely to be advertised only once, or not at all, because candidates are easily found. It could also indicate high turn-over for investment firm jobs... (i.e. people get sick of it). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Lennart Augustsson lenn...@augustsson.net writes: Rather than high turnover it indicates (in my experience) that it's difficult to fill positions in finance. That's one reason they are advertised repeatedly. Because you can't find people that are good enough (in terms of required skill sets, etc.) or because no-one wants the job? -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
The former. On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: Lennart Augustsson lenn...@augustsson.net writes: Rather than high turnover it indicates (in my experience) that it's difficult to fill positions in finance. That's one reason they are advertised repeatedly. Because you can't find people that are good enough (in terms of required skill sets, etc.) or because no-one wants the job? -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
about functional programming jobs in investment banking ... Ketil Malde schrieb: Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com writes: (Yes, I realize that's were the money is [...]) Exactly. I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. I'm not sure I follow this opinion in general. Analogously I could say: Supporting military is a good idea, since they invest in new technologies. That's not my opinion. Maybe the next financial crisis leads us into the next world war. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Henning Thielemann wrote: about functional programming jobs in investment banking ... Ketil Malde schrieb: Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com writes: (Yes, I realize that's were the money is [...]) Exactly. I don't think this is bad: having talented people recruited to work on functional programming will improve the technology for all of us. I'm not sure I follow this opinion in general. Analogously I could say: Supporting military is a good idea, since they invest in new technologies. That's not my opinion. Maybe the next financial crisis leads us into the next world war. But that analogy is a bit disingenuous. If investment bankers care so much about performance (because a few milliseconds delay in transactions can cost a lot) then getting a lot of talented functional programmers in finance means there will be a good deal of work in figuring out how to improve performance. Thus, anyone who wants performance will benefit directly; regardless of attendant outcomes. While the military invests in technology, they invest mainly in technology that advances a particular goal. Thus, it's good for them to have smart people if you would like improvements to that particular kind of technology. (Which includes the Internet and natural language processing ---for very militaristic reasons, both of them---, as well as the obvious.) Investment banking isn't likely to lead to improvements in zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms. If that's where you think we need to be improving our technology, then having smart people in investment banking doesn't help. But that's a different claim than the claim that they'd improve performance or overall acceptance in the job market. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Good, we need more functional programmers actually solving real problems. But please put your skills to work in an industry other than investment banking. There are lots of companies outside of investment-banking using functional programming. Bluespec, Galois, TypLab, are all serious Haskell users. Larger companies such as ATT, Facebook, and Google have all used Haskell for various projects. If you look a bit further afield, there are even more companies using F#, Caml, and Erlang. I use Caml almost exclusively in my day job at Vector Fabrics – which is poles apart from investment banking. (And yes, we're always interested in hiring good functional programmers.) If you want a FP job outside of investment banking, keep an eye on the CUFP website and the FP mailing lists. Opportunities abound! Wouter ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Yes. I find that out of 10 people I train, only about 2 pick it up and run with it. I'm starting to believe you are either wired for functional programming, or you're not. Couldn't agree more. This is the usual conclusion I arrive at when I find myself wondering why so many very intelligent people reject FP when it's obviously (to my and my FP-wired brain) superior. --Jonathan Geddes ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Good, we need more functional programmers actually solving real problems. But please put your skills to work in an industry other than investment banking. I've received a lot mail on this comment; mostly positive. Here's one from someone who wishes to remain anonymous: First of all I would like to say that I like your work regarding e.g. Atom. Second, I would like to know what exactly is bad about a Haskell job in investment banking as a lot of good programmers work in this industry. It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I believe investment banking is important, but does it really need to dominate a large percentage of the world's top tier programmers? Is computing the risk of derivative contracts more important than pursuing sustainable energy, new drug discovery, improving crop yields, etc. Some will argue investment banking enables all of these things -- and I'm sure many people in the industry go to work everyday feeling proud of their contributions. But I just think most of this talent is going in to improve the bottom line and little else. (Yes, I realize that's were the money is, and that's who's hiring. Actually I'm very glad. Investment banking is the first industry to adopt functional programming on a large scale. And others will follow.) -Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Out of 10 people trained only 2 should do programming anyway. :) On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 4:58 AM, Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Eil, Have you had any trouble training people to use Haskell? Yes. I find that out of 10 people I train, only about 2 pick it up and run with it. I'm starting to believe you are either wired for functional programming, or you're not. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
But do you think there would be more Haskell jobs offered (in absolute terms), if no investment firms offered jobs? Is there some kind of quota of job offers that gets used up? There seems to be more job applicants that job offers at the moment, so I'm not sure what the problem is. On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com wrote: It's disproportionate. 95% of the job offerings in functional programming are with investment firms. I believe investment banking is important, but does it really need to dominate a large percentage of the world's top tier programmers? Is computing the risk of derivative contracts more important than pursuing sustainable energy, new drug discovery, improving crop yields, etc. Some will argue investment banking enables all of these things -- and I'm sure many people in the industry go to work everyday feeling proud of their contributions. But I just think most of this talent is going in to improve the bottom line and little else. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Lennart Augustsson lenn...@augustsson.net wrote: But do you think there would be more Haskell jobs offered (in absolute terms), if no investment firms offered jobs? Is there some kind of quota of job offers that gets used up? No and no. Again, I think it's awesome an industry as finally woken up. I just wish the others would get with the program. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
Yes. I find that out of 10 people I train, only about 2 pick it up and run with it. I'm starting to believe you are either wired for functional programming, or you're not. I disagree that only certain brains are wired for FP. I think your experience can be explained by people's inability to change in general. I guess a good counter argument would be if the people who didn't take to FP were able to pick up imperative programming easily. That said it's great that you were able sell Haskell to your company and follow through by actually delivering. It's really nice that the Haskell community has these success stories. -deech ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell in Industry
On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:58:15 -0500 Tom Hawkins tomahawk...@gmail.com wrote: Good, we need more functional programmers actually solving real problems. But please put your skills to work in an industry other than investment banking. +1000 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
