[HG] The Listmaster Speaks: Subjects of limited interest?
The charter of the HG list is to discuss the HG, in all its aspects. Obviously not all conversations are going to be of interest to all list members. For this reason, please keep the subject line consistant with the topic, so that people can choose to use their Delete key. Most people have been doing this very well, so thank you. If this policy is a problem for you, please contact me off list. Alden the Listmaster
Re: [HG] Flying NOW
Colin said: Do I take it from the few replies that were sent, that nobody ever takes their HG other than in the cabin? That's pretty much it - we have (had) a webpage dedicated to the principle of keeping your vielle with you at all times. Obviously this is no longer possible. I've updated the page (www.hurdygurdy.com/info/flying.htm). To save you all the trouble of surfing out there to find it, here's the added text: The extraordinary security measures put in place in August of 2006 have made much of the document that follows obsolete, at least for the moment. If they won't let us have a paperback book, they certainly won't let us have a hurdy-gurdy. Professional symphony musicians have been subjected to the same restrictions, and forced to tour by train and bus instead of by airplane even though they have purchased seats for their instruments. At this point our best recommendation is to buy a flight case or the equivalent. They are bulky, to be sure, but they're the only thing that will get the job done. Don't even think of checking your gurdy at the gate (if they will even let you get it that far, which is doubtful), unless you want to arrive at your destination with some of the world's most expensive firewood. An easy and relatively inexpensive solution to the flight case problem are Pelican cases, manufactured for professional camera equipment. They are still bulky, but they are relatively lightweight. They have built-in wheels and a retractable handle. Model 1650 is large enough for most hurdy-gurdies, while the Model 1660 holds a Jenzat-style luteback. Be sure to get the Pick-n-Pluck foam inserts which allow you to easily carve out a cavity for your instrument (and some little holes for the other stuff - rosin, the crank, etc. These cases are available at a lot of places, but the best prices we've found so far are at BH Photo (www.bhphotovideo.com). At the same source you can get the Pelican 1506 TSA lock. There is one caveat to this suggestion: while these cases are very, very tough, as far as we can discover they are not ATA approved. My bet is that Pelican cases are at least as tough as ATA-approved flight cases, but without the actual certification you are relying on the armor of the case to protect your instrument, and there could be some trouble with the insurance company should the case encounter something it can't deal with, such as a forklift. With that said, when we travel we'll be flying with Pelicans. Careful flying! Alden
Re: [HG] Re:WARNING: Luthierie again
Roy said: BUT PLEASE, PLEASE, not in front of the kids. For some reason too many are bored/annoyed when we discuss such fascinating, intriguing subjects as HGs on the HG list. The heck with that. The listmaster (petit moi) says: it's a HG list, so let's discuss HG soundhole placement. Those uninterested in this topic may use their delete key, as per list policy as established by (once again) petit moi. As previously mentioned. I am restoring my original Dewit trapeziodal to playing condition, so I'll have something to play while I repair the Siorat luteback. This is a crack in the (lute) back which will required it to be unstrung for entirely too long. I know this because I have fixed it before...it takes forever, but with the aid of an oudman I'm trying (again) for a permanent fix this time. Hmm - an oudman. Took me a moment - oh, a person who works on/builds ouds! How cool! How did you find an oudman in Texas, or dare I ask? ;-) I have run across tantilizing references to Optimum Sound hole placement size, but I keep running into dead-ends when I try to follow up. SO: If you know anything about where to put the soundholes or how big,contact me personally: [EMAIL PROTECTED] No doubt you've found references to relationship between the soundhole size, the soundboard thickness, and the body cavity volume. These are all factors in the Helmholtz resonance, which states that an air volume of a particular size with a port of a particular area and length will resonate at a particular frequency. How specific that frequency is is based on the length of the port - IIRC the specificity of the frequency drops as the port becomes shorter. On a stringed instrument, the port length is the thickness of the soundboard. What all this has to do with HG's is still clouded in mystery, AFAIK. For starters, we have the confounding factor of the wheel and braces effectively splitting the soundboard into three soundboards. Do we then calculate the resonances for the areas under those soundboards? How do we deal with the crosstalk between the volumes if we divide them that way? Bottom line, Roy, is that I think you should make some soundholes that look right to you based on your experience. There are presently no good models (well, any models really) for how a HG soundboard and body act as a unit, so short of getting your PhD in computational physics to figure it out, your best bet may be to let your gut instincts do the work. ;-) All our best, Alden
Re: [HG] Yet another trial balloon: with a difference.
Welcome back, whichever Roy you are. ;-) ;-) Alden
Re: [HG] archives of list
http://www.mail-archive.com/hg@hurdygurdy.com/ Seems useful. Is this something the Hackman's set up, or did the owners of that site just decide to archive us? I don't know who set this up. It was not I. Alden
RE: [HG] Building question
Bennett, I am hoping that you mean width where you said thickness. I can't imagine any wood, hard or soft, that you would need thicker than is commercially available, unless you are building the Bosch. Alden
RE: [HG] Building question
Bennett, Ah, I'd forgotten the large piece needed to make that part: 12 x 5-1/8 x 1-3/8 Depending on the wood you are using, it's certainly possible to find a piece of that size. 6/4 stock, 6 wide, 12 long is fairly commonly available. Laminating is also a reasonable approach here. I think I mention in the Supplemental Notes on this instrument that from an engineering standpoint, this part is a good solution, but it's a nightmare from a fabrication viewpoint. Try making one from 2x6 construction lumber before you commit your good wood to it. ;-) Especially if you have a woodstove. ;-) Alden I am trying to figure out how to build the one as described in the Making and Playing of Musical Instruments. There is just that one piece on the crank end (Base) that is fashioned out of a single piece of wood. It is just slightly bigger than pieces of wood I have found but again my selection and sources are limited. I am sure chris will help me out.
RE: [HG] Building question
What kind of gurdy is in this book... Guitar shaped, lute, etc.. Seth It's kind of wedge-shaped or trapezoidal. Anybody got a picture? If one goes far enough back into the lore of the Over the Water Festival, there are pictures of Roy holding his Little Doorit. He spent most of his first festival working on it. Alden
[HG] Coming soon: YouTube videos of OTW concert
Just to whet your appetite: I have two short videos from the instructor concert at 2006 Over the Water. I'll be posting them on YouTube pretty soon - they're just waiting for the players to approve them. Alden
[HG] Over the Water Video on YouTube
Dear HG List, I have posted the first of the videos from the OTW festival instructor concert, featuring list members Tobie Miller and Sharon Berman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWmNGYAPfL4 As you probably all know, the Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Festival is held every September at Fort Flagler State Park in Washington State. It's the largest gathering of hurdy-gurdy talent in North America, with great instruction at all playing levels. The instructor concert on Friday night and the Saturday night dance are held in the picturesque camp theater. For more festival information, you can visit www.overthewater.org. Our thanks to Tobie and Sharon, to Doris Bartha who gave us the footage, and to our friend David Christensen for the recording gear! Stay tuned for the clip of one of Gilles and Patrick's duets. Alden
Re: [HG] Antique Hurdy Gurdy's
Unfortunately the photos are unavailable on this one. The Mirecourt builders (the Colsons and Thouvenels) built very few lutebacks, and I'm always skeptical when I see one advertised. There was one around a few years ago where it was obviously the keybox and bridges and tailpiece from a guitar-shaped Colson that had been obviously grafted onto a newer luteback body. We had the honor of restoring a genuine luteback Colson several years ago. It's a beauty. It went to a player in the Seattle area. Alden I was looking at that... First time I ever-saw a lute-back Colson. There are a few Guitar shaped Colsons with the OTW people. Colson has a panache similar to Studebaker or Mac. The owners are generally believers... I like to look at them, but I might buy one if I had a chance to play it. I really am not in the market for an antique restoral until I have one to play Thanks, Roy On 2/20/07, Seth Hamon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: www.vintage-instruments.com has some vintage antique hurdy gurdies for sale... Some have pictures. Hurdy Gurdy, CAILHE DECANTE A CHARROUX ALLIER, 1880s Hurdy Gurdy, COLSON, Mirecourt, 1850s Hurdy Gurdy, FRENCH, 1850s, Hurdy Gurdy, P. COTY, Paris, c.1780 Hurdy Gurdy, PIMPARD, Jenzat, 1870s
[HG] Patrick and Gilles on France2
Did anyone manage to save the video of Patrick and Gilles on France2? I have tried several times, but apparently have some hardware/software issues to resolve. If you have got it already, please contact me off list and save me from a lot of grumbling about software. ;-) Alden [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS - Gilles and Patrick will also soon be up on YouTube. A
Re: [HG] Shaft and wheel relationship
I have the Varquain Hmm - haven't thought about those in a while. Nice external drawings, but don't trust the internal details. and the Lambert guitar style plans... Those the ones from Michael Muskett? They're OK as a guideline, but there are discrepencies and errors. (I think Marcello's opinion was that they were good fire starter. I wouldn't go quite that far, but they do have problems.) My question is on the treaded part of the shaft where the wheel is screwed on.. From what I have noticed after the wheel is screwed on it doesnt have a nut screwed on behind it to keep it from un-threading. Correct. So if thats the case what keeps the wheel from un-screwing and binding against the side of the soundboard if the wheel is turned backwards like I have seen some do to get the cotton off. Absolutely nothing holds it on, except for the tightness of the thread inside the wheel. I have also seen some do this when they start playing I guess to get the cotton in order for the best sound or somthing I'm guessing the wheel stays put due to forward turning against the threads of the shaft keeping the wheel screwed on tight... Correct. For this reason, we now machine the end of the shaft that sticks out of the body with a small set of flats for a box wrench. If the crank doesn't want to come off, the wheel will start unscrewing. The box wrench lets you grasp the shaft without damaging it. I might be off... On the one I made from the tolley plans I made the wheel opening large enough so I could tighten a nut onto the shaft behind the wheel, but I wouldn't be able to remove the shaft or wheel if I hadn't screwed the soundboard down instead of gluing it Some wheels are just set in permanently. Removing the shaft and wheel of an old instrument can be very, very exciting sometimes. ;-) Alden Seth Hamon
Re: [HG] Shaft and wheel relationship
I was going to use the Lambert plans for the body style , but incorporate the plans from the Dewit book for all the lengths and key placements. And boy do those plans make this insturment look tiny... Seth You may benefit from doing the math yourself for key placement - I don't recall how accurate they were. The math for each tangent placement can be worked out from first principles starting with the 12th root of 2 (because it takes twelve divisions to get to half of the string length at the 12th tangent or fret) - or you can look around online for a fret position calculator, of which there are many for aspiring guitar-builders. A typical chanter string sounding length is 344 mm. After that it's a matter of deciding where the wheel should go and how wide it should be, and doing the requisite math to get the wheel angle right so that the ears don't stick 'way out and make your gurdy look like H. Ross Perot. That's where things get REALLY interesting. There's a thought - a gurdy with the peghead carved with the likeness of H. Ross. OK, let's not go there. Alden
Re: [HG] Wheel position/Pictures of my first Gurdy I made
Ok I raised it a hair and the scratyness is gone but its pretty quiet and the drone is kinda drowning it out... Seth Welcome to the land of St. Goldilocks, the patron saint of hurdy-gurdies. The first shim was too small, the second shim was too big, the third shim was too small, the fourth string was just a little too big... If shimming doesn't help, i.e. there's no middle ground between too scratchy and too faint, you need to look at (in order) cotton, rosin, and wheel angle. The chanter string should sit dead flat on the wheel surface, with a little rounding at the edges of the wheel. if you need too scrape the wheel into a different angle, so be it. Ideally you would like to have each string sitting flat on the wheel, but the drones can tolerate a little more non-flatness on the wheel surface. Alden
Re: [HG] trains and HG's - was Building
I already took vacation for the festival but I'm going to avoid taking the train... I'll just have to try my luck at flying with my insturment. Another option is to ship the instrument ahead of you. We'll be happy to be the collection point for people to ship their gurdies if that works out better than putting them on the plane with you. An option for the flight case problem is the ingenious solution arrived at by Marjy Fiddler: a big Coleman cooler. It has its own wheels built in, and stands up to being kicked around. I'm hoping she'll post about it. Alden
Re: [HG] gurdies on YouTube
It is not yet online. A portion of it will soon be on the OTW website as the Commonly Played Tunes for people to practice in preparation for coming to the festival. Stay tuned (ahem...) Alden This begs another question .. where can one find the OTW Tune Collection? Is it online somewhere? thanks! Paul On 3/18/07, Derek Lofthouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is a scottish by Dominique Forges called, la Sansonette Its in the OTW festival tune collection, not sure where else you may find it
Re: [HG] The Great Gurdy Hunt
Bill said: As I mentioned in my last (I mean previous; don't get your hopes up!) message, I've started considering the acquisition of a proper, pro-built HG. Alden is, of course, the prime source for such instruments here in the US; but, considering the great demands being put on the shop these days (yes, I refer to the waiting list), I thought I would try looking overseas. Just a couple of points here: First, it is not just me who is the prime source - Olympic Musical Instruments is the prime source, and OMI consists of more than just me. At this moment there are three of us: myself, my dear wife Cali, and our assistant Patrick. There is a temptation to think that Alden builds the instruments, but in fact Cali does most of the building and the finishing, and Patrick presently specializes in all things Orca. It's true that we have a pretty long wait for the custom instruments: the Volksgurdy, the lutebacks large and small, the Baroque style, the Bosch, and the Minstrel are all long-term investments that take some time to mature. Our production models, the Chinook and the Orca, have a much shorter waiting time - a few months for the Chinook, and even less for the Orca. There's an Orca coming up soon that is not spoken for yet, so anyone who is interested could get it quite quickly. Good luck on your hunt! Alden
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks: What the List is About
The Listmaster Speaks: I can appreciate that some people would like to see smaller forums for smaller conversations, but that's not where I'm going to take this list at this time. Subject closed. The subject of the Hurdy-Gurdy List is hurdy-gurdies: - playing them - adjusting them - recording them - listening to them - thinking about them - dreaming about them - building them - buying them - selling them - amplifying them - complaining about them - rejoicing about them - whatever else you like to do with them Any time we're not talking about hurdy-gurdies, we've strayed off topic and it's my job to nudge us back to the subject or to cut off discussion. I've been out sick for the last few weeks, so I may not have been doing my Listmaster job well enough. I also appreciate that the subject lines don't always match the subject. I'll politely ask that everyone do their best to change the subject line if a particular thread undergoes metamorphosis into a thread about something else. Because it's just too much trouble to check each post for the subject line matching the content, we have to live with occasional mismatches. The universe is not a perfect place, and we have to live with that imbalance. In the big picture, it's really not that important. As always, if you aren't getting enjoyment or edification out of a particular post, use your delete button. That's what it's for. Not every post is going to be of incredible fascination to everyone on the list, so don't expect it. Also as always, disagreements with how I run the list are to be sent to me personally, not to the list. Alden the Listmaster
Re: [HG] Binding shaft on Reichmann hurdy-gurdy
The traditional method of installing the wheel was to put it permanently. When all else fails for figuring out the bearings, you can get an X-ray of it. ;-) Alden At 10:49 PM 6/10/2007 +0300, you wrote: Hi Matt, Do you know how old the Hurdy Gurdy is? Could be that it was an early model and the old Trad way was used. Just a thought! Billy Horne Hi Billy- Thanks for the reply! I don't have any idea how old the instrument is. There is a label inside with Mr. Reichmann's name and address, but no date that I can see. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by the old Trad way. I have been in contact with someone who has a hurdy-gurdy by the same maker; he said it had a tail bearing, made of wood, about twice the diameter of the shaft. The bearing was held in place by a small screw. However, the instrument I'm working on now has no such bearing that I can see; the shaft sticks out of the end of the instrument through a hole only slightly bigger than the shaft itself. So I still don't know for sure what parts or materials are in play here. I wonder if there is some sort of soft material like leather wadded in there as packing to keep the shaft steady? The wheel and washer against the bracing inside would hold the shaft from sliding out during play, so basic packing might be all that's necessary... ~ Matt
Re: X-Rays. Was Re: [HG] Binding shaft on Reichmann hurdy-gurdy
We get our X-rays sort of under the table (so to speak) from a clinic where a friend of a friend is the director of radiology. (Convenient, that.) She didn't seem at all concerned about the insurance implications or whatever. The techs are always very helpful and interested (pecan brownies help here), but I do typically need to bring in my stuff after hours so as not to interfere with patient bookings. We've even gotten some CT scans of instruments - fabulous for showing the exact positions and shapes of braces, the shape of the lute back, and other cool stuff. CT scans do have some shadowing issues with metal pieces - the shaft always looks like the sun's corona during an eclipse, and other metal parts give weird effects, but it's more a matter of interpretation than of harming the machine. It may be that the guy had just been razzed by an insurance inspector or something and didn't want to deal with the hassle. Alden Thanks everyone, I figured that a HG couldn't possibly harm an X-ray machine. I don't know why the fellow told me what he did, especially as he was generally very helpful and friendly. I found his response strange, but figured he must know something I didn't -Arle
Re: [HG] Searching for a book
If you get a short run of copies (even loose copies), please include one for us. ;-) Alden Marcello all: Hold your horses!!! Hi A dear friend of mine asked me about this: HURDY-GURDIES FROM HIERONYMUS BOSCH TO REMBRANDT by Kahren J. HELLERSTEDT (Ph.D, dissertation, University of Pittsburgh, 1980). Since he already got microfilm of the first part, he is expecially searching for the second part of the work (pp. 265-366, where all the pictures are) that could be precious for his own Ph.D. I don't know anything about it, coud you help us to find the book or the author Thanks in advance Marcello We located the author, and she explained that the illustrations are missing because the microfilm company raised some copyright issues, and decided to copy only the text part. The good lady promised to attempt to locate her original (basement? attic?) and let us know. If she finds it, it should be no problem to get it xeroxed. Patience, our Malden, MA, Scotland Yard division (or is it Guy Noir franchise?) is on the case, and we'll report promptly as new developments come to light. Best regards, Tom Suzanne
The Listmaster speaks: Re: [HG] My page about Asturias and Galicia - long
Geoff said: I suppose this should go off list. Let me know if this is too far afield. And the Listmaster says: This is far enough off-topic that I'm going to restrict it. Everyone who has something to say about this subject may make ONE more post before 9:00 Pacific time Wednesday. Basically you all have 24 hours to speak your piece. I suggest you use your soapbox to sum up your position and to include your email address so that listmembers who want to continue this may do so elsewhere. Please keep the subject line the same as it was so that those who have been deleting the subject may continue to do so. Anyone who grouses at me about this decision may be summarily removed from the list. Alden the Listmaster
Re: [HG] miking a gurdy
I'll certainly second Pat's comments on ribbon mics. We've used Royer 121's and been very, very pleased with them. They're especially nice as a Blumlein pair for stereo micing. I didn't mention ribbon mics because of their fragility and somewhat problematic preamp situation. (A preamp with variable input impedance can be a big help with ribbon mics.) There are some lower cost ribbon mics available, such as Pacific Pro Audio's R-One ribbon mics which sell for about $100 each. We have a pair, but haven't gotten to really use them enough yet to get a feeling for them. Microphones are one of my favorite subjects, so I hope not to bore the HG list with them too much. I'll try to keep it down to a dull roar... ;-) Alden
Re: [HG] hurdy-gurdy in England around 1800
Your best source here, as far as I know, is going to be Susann Palmer's book, if you can find a copy. She broke down the history of the HG century by century, and (being English) had a more Anglo-centric view on the history, so there should be something there that you can use. Just be prepared to take what she says with a grain of salt (if you have that expression). Some of her research was quite good, and some was wildly inaccurate. Alden nobody? sigh... maybe more general: can you point me to pictures of hurdy gurdies or music that was possibly played on hurdy-gurdies in England before 1900? thanks a lot, Matthias does anybody know anything about hurdy-gurdies in England at the time 1790-1800. Which types did exist, which repertoire was played? Is there any (famous) evidences close to this period? thank you, Matthias
Re: [HG] Alden, its Geoffrey Schumann
We're talking to these gentlemen off the list. For everyone's information, I'll remind you all that the HG list is a place to discuss the hurdy-gurdy with a big group of people. The HG list is NOT a direct line to Olympic Musical Instruments. For that, use our telephone or our email, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alden hi jeoffrey , if you have comunication together in your buziness you will know i already lett my card number to a girl ... .i just dont understand why you email me to ask me this .. sorry for answering machine i dont take my message often .now it is near 1or 2 weeks i lett her the card number sowhat will be the official delay before you send please . please addwhite cotton and liquid rosine if you have thanks sylvain - Original Message - From: Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:37 PM Subject: [HG] Alden, its Geoffrey Schumann left you a voice message on your machine, did you run the card? Did you get the confirmation #? I was waiting for your email all weekend long, and never got it, so can you confirm, that you did indeed make a payment for $600.00, I would appreicate it, and confirming that I have one Chinook on offical order now. Please advise. Geoffrey On Oct 10, 2007, at 3:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your best source here, as far as I know, is going to be Susann Palmer's book, if you can find a copy. She broke down the history of the HG century by century, and (being English) had a more Anglo-centric view on the history, so there should be something there that you can use. Just be prepared to take what she says with a grain of salt (if you have that expression). Some of her research was quite good, and some was wildly inaccurate. Alden nobody? sigh... maybe more general: can you point me to pictures of hurdy gurdies or music that was possibly played on hurdy-gurdies in England before 1900? thanks a lot, Matthias does anybody know anything about hurdy-gurdies in England at the time 1790-1800. Which types did exist, which repertoire was played? Is there any (famous) evidences close to this period? thank you, Matthias -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.6/1086 - Release Date: 2007-10-22 19:57
Re: [HG] Hurdy gurdy on ebay
Oh my god, that poor instrument. The best that can be hoped for it is to save the peghead for a reference and to bury or burn the rest with due reverence. Alden Anyone looking for a winter project? Try item 200166052660 on eBay! My guess would be that its playing days are over. Gerald
Re: [HG] Amplification
OK, here's my short treatise on amplification in general and more specifically on the HG. There are several options for amplification: piezo pickups, onboard microphones, stage microphones, and magnetic pickups. 1) Piezo pickups - these are small discs that work on the piezoelectric effect to produce a small voltage. Most guitar pickups, harp pickups, violin pickups, etc are piezo pickups. advantages: - moves with instrument - much less prone to feedback - can be set to amplify specific parts of sound - best setup for using with effects pedals disadvantages: - can have a honky or quacky sound, especially if the preamp/buffer is far away - improves with good quality pickups, good position, and close preamp - needs a preamp or DI box very close - cable runs must be short. This is very important for getting a good sound from a piezo: the output impedance of the piezo is very high, so long cable runs (even a meter or two) will degrade the signal significantly. - position on instrument may not give full sound - a lot of experimenting is needed to find the sweet spot where the pickup gives the sound you are looking for - can pick up body noise from the instrument If you have more than one piezo pickup, you'll need to mix them together before sending them to the amplifier. This can be done with a built-in mixer or an outboard mixer. Bear in mind that if you're using an outboard mixer, you still need to buffer the signal from each pickup with active electronics (something that uses a battery) built in to the instrument or attached to it. 2) Onboard microphones - these are small microphones, sometimes mounted on a little gooseneck for better positioning. People have also experimented with placing microphones inside the instrument, but the results have never been very good to my ears, tending toward boomy with a lot of body noise and noise from bearings, etc. advantages of onboard mic - moves with instrument - more natural sound than a piezo - can have a more balanced sound disadvantages - more prone to feedback, especially if onstage amp is used - some models need a preamp very close - cable runs must be short - more prone to picking up body noise than piezo 3) Stage microphones - a good microphone will give the most accurate sound of the instrument. What qualifies as a good microphone is too long a discussion to have here. There are passable microphones, lousy microphones, good microphones, and awesome microphones. ;-) advantages - most natural sound, esp if a good mic is used - sound is as balanced as the instrument is and mic placement allows - no onboard preamp needed - least prone to body noise disadvantages - most prone to feedback - dependent on monitors for sound - does not move with instrument - youre stuck in one spot, and better not move very far - cant plug directly into amp (usually) 4) Magnetic pickups - like the pickups on an electric guitar, they produce voltage by sensing the movement of a ferrous metal string. If you have all metal strings on your HG, you can start looking around for a good set of pickups, or wind your own. I wouldn't recommend these except in very specific situations. I'm sure that this won't answer everyone's questions, but I hope it's a good start. ;-) Alden
Re: [HG] Amplification
Augusto - I have questions though... As I understand, my maker will probably use three piezo pickups and I will have to use an offboard mixer (That yamaha mg 10/2 looks really interesting! Does that only mix the signal or does it amplify it as well? I really do not understand this well). A mixer typically does a couple of things. It brings low level signals from microphones up to a working level, called line level. The part of the mixer that does this is called the preamplifier, usually called the preamp. It also takes two or more signals and mixes them together. After the mixer the signal goes to some kind of amplifier. In a sound reinforcement situation, such as a large concert, this would be a power amplifier and speakers. For a smaller situation you can use a keyboard amplifier. You can use a guitar amp, but the output and input impedances don't match up right, so this is not a good combination. A mixer can also have an amplifier built into it, in which case it's called a powered mixer. The Yamaha 102C is not powered. I haven't used the Yamaha 102. The currently available Yahama 102C looks like a reasonable mixer for this. A Mackie 1202 is a good option. Behringer makes a knockoff of the Mackie, the Xenyx 1202. I don't know how exactly the signal will get outside the instrument, I have to ask him that, but what he emphasized is that each group of strings will be on a different, independent channel and that he will provide me with a 3-channel canon (XLR) cable. He said that I will have to mix the signals externally myself. Is there a XLR cable that can carry 3-channels in one cable or is that just one of those medusa cables? A typical XLR cable carries just one signal. If three separate signals are being carried by the 3-pin XLR, it will need to have breakout cables and connectors at the other end to bring the individual signals into separate channels on the mixer. What do you mean exactly by this active electronic device that buffers the signal? This has to do with impedance and level matching between the output of the transducer and the input of the mixer. A microphone has a typical output impedance of 600 ohms. The mixer has a typical input impedance of 2500-5000 ohms. This is the usual relationship between input and output impedances. A piezo pickup has a typical output impedance of 100,000 ohms or even higher. Plugging a pickup directly into a mixer will result in a pretty poor sound - the mismatch between the input and the output will require that the preamp be turned up very high, resulting in noise from the preamp. Also, if the signal is run through a long wire (a meter or more) to the mixer, the capacitive load will reduce the high end (treble) response. The way to solve this is with one or two pieces of equipment. A built-in preamp with a very high impedance designed for the piezo will bring the level up and the impedance down to microphone or line level. A built-in low-gain buffer preamp designed for the piezo will strengthen the signal strength without changing the impedance very much. If a buffer is used, a Direct Injection box (usually called a DI box) is used to match the impedance, allowing a high-impedance signal from a pickup to be run into a lower-impedance microphone input. For both of these, I have said built-in because the cable run from the piezo to the preamp should be kept as short as possible. Both of these solutions require some kind of active circuit in the instrument - by active I mean something that needs a battery to power it. This is as opposed to passive circuitry, where there may be volume and tone controls (as on an electric guitar), but nothing that requires power to function. He may have that in mind already, I did not get all technical details on how he does his amplification system besides what I mentioned above, but I would like what you mean exactly by that and how should I ask the maker about this specific device... What you need to ask him is whether it uses a battery, and whether you need mic level or line level inputs on your mixer, and what kind of connectors are used at each end of the cable. I hope this helps, Alden
Re: [HG] why i bought the ebay pouget hurdy girl-dy ...
Are you hoping to restore this instrument? Alden
Re: [HG] Celtic Music
Good question, Jay. This matter was debated at some length a few months ago (or maybe more - I forget). Try this archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/hg@hurdygurdy.com/ Alden Call me crazy but I don't have a sense of the use of the HG in the area of Celtic music. Have I just been looking (or listening) in all the wrong places? Or, is it a tuning issue? Thanks, Jay ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [HG] Celtic Music
By posting the link to the archive, I had hoped to keep the list off the path to music definition land. Some people went there anyway, and I'm here to direct everyone back. Being the listmaster, I am going to define Celtic Music FOR THIS DISCUSSION as that body of dance music and songs/ballads played by Scottish, Irish, and Cape Breton musicians: jigs, reels, strathspeys, slow airs, etc. I am aware of other Celtic connections, such as the one to the music of Brittany (such as is played by Kornog), but I'm blithely ignoring them. Whether you agree or disagree with this definition from an ethnomusicological viewpoint is NOT going to be an issue on this list. We're here to discuss hurdy-gurdies, their music, their culture, their players, etc. So we can discuss where or how HG's have been applied to Celtic Music as defined above. If the discussion wanders into examining what Celtic Music is defined as, I'll shut it down. The merits of my working definition have doubtless been discussed at length elsewhere, so we will not discuss them further here: such a discussion is not germane to the focus of the list. For the purposes of the vast majority of the general public who are even aware of Celtic Music, my definition works, so we're going to live with it here for the moment. If you just can't stand it, use your delete key, or discuss it with me OFF LIST. The Listmaster Has Spoken. Alden
Re: [HG] Who to learn from and what to learn
Hmwell with the understanding that I am probably going to butcher the spelling of most of these names since we put all our CD's on the ipod and I can't locate the j-cards for reference. 1. First and always Gilles. I could sit at his feet and learn for the rest of my life. 2. Marcello Bono - ditto 3. Tobie Miller 4. Christophe Tellart who knows so much he makes my brain ache 5. Anne-Lise Foy and Laurence Pinchemaille (assuming they could put up with my french or lack of. 6. Ricardo Delfino 7. Thierry Nouat who I understand also plays a mean baroque 8. A couple of players from Sweden whose brains I would like to pick regarding repetoire 9. Stephane Durand from Tapage I could go on but the last I am going to mention here is a group I would just like to hear play again because their music was crisp, clean and rich. They are a duo from Quebec called Athanor, Michel Bordeleau and Martine Chiasson. Lovely, tasty musicians. Anyone I didn't include was not from lack of regard, just lack of space. Cali
RE: [HG] Perfection Pegs
Graham said: Alden and Cali use them on HGs without problems (I believe) That's correct. There seem to be 2 types Pegheds are installed in a plain tapered hole and glued in Perfection Pegs are also put in a tapered hole but have a self-tapping threaded bit They both seem to be designed for 2 point support as in a violin We use Pegheds from Chuck Herrin that he designed for flamenco guitar. These are designed to be supported in the center, which is just what we need for the HG. They're expensive, but they look better than banjo machines, and they seem to be more ruggedly built, i.e. will last longer. An H-G peg is only supported at one end ? Well, I actually think of them as being supported in the middle: the head (which you turn) sticks out the top of the peghead, the center is supported by the wood of the peghead, and the string gets wrapped around the narrow end, inside the peghead. Alden
Re: [HG] Stringing
I can't really speak to the historical timeline on overspun strings - but I'm sure that someone on a lute or early music list or forum can tell you the full story. We experimented with gimped strings a few years ago when we were in search of The Ideal Low G Trompette. We calculated the right string size and got one from Dan Larson. I really liked it. It lasted about 6 months. The next two that we got only lasted a week or two each. I don't know whether it was just a bad batch, or something else had changed, or what, but the strings just didn't last: the internal wire broke, and it was all over. We haven't really played with them any further, time and money being the limiting factors - the price is reasonable if they last for 6 months, but not so much if they only last a week. It could be that I was twisting it too much, but I wasn't doing anything different than I usually do, and the previous string had lasted a lot longer under the same conditions (or abuse). We've certainly found that the flatwound viola strings that we use for chanters are much more fussy about being twisted back and forth for cottoning than a plain gut string. I can make a 180-degree twist in a gut string and it barely blinks, while the same twist on a viola string will break the metal wrap in short order. YMMV, as usual. Alden
Re: banding a wheel - was RE: [HG] Customizing a kit
Changing the wheel material won't necessarily solve that problem - getting the wheel to run dead true with an insert (regardless of the material) is a huge challenge. Often the best strategy is to use a thicker material (such as Baltic Birch with thick veneer faces on each side) that is oversized for the final thickness, assume that the wheel blank will have some wobble, and just trim the wheel sides on the lathe to get rid of it. Another place that errors can creep in is in the threading inside the insert. What thread are you using, and does your shaft have a stop collar? Alden Thanks so much I'll try to switch to a Baltic Birch wheel, I tried that first but it wouldn't turn true on the lathe.. I think the fostner bit didn't drill perfectly straight into the center of the wheel for the threaded insert I made for it on my metal lathe... I'll keep trying or I'll make a few different wheels... Thanks, Seth Alden Hackmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seth - if you're making a banded wheel, I suggest using Baltic Birch or Finnish Birch as the core. It will be a lot more stable than a piece of solid wood. If you use solid wood, it will shrink and grow disproportionally as the humidity changes, and your band will come unglued (and likely you will also.) For the band, we typically use holly, about 1/8 (3 mm) thick after scraping and shaping. Holly is great because it is easy to bend, and it's practically grainless. The downside is the shortage of long clear holly - it's kinda like the Holy Grail (holly grail?) of HG builders who make this style of wheel. The fun (ahem) parts of this process are getting a nice clean bend around the wheel, and making the scarf joint, and clamping the band. Trimming the band on the lathe before final scraping in the instrument is tons of fun: the holly comes off in long, long strands. With a sharp tool, there's a magical feel to watching the wood pour off almost like water. Good luck, Alden F.M. Hackmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae.
Re: [HG] a Newbie question
Whatever note the string is tuned to, the chien will tap at the equivalent frequency. So for the ~293 taps per second, the trompette was tuned to d' (293.66 Hz, i.e. 293 vibrations per second. close enough.) If it had been tuned to c', it taps at 261.6 taps per second. Alden A few years ago I came across an article in French titled 'Functionnement du chevalet mobile de la vielle à roue' by Pierre Rebaud, originally published in 1984,which shows the various forces on the chien which cause it to work. The article says that the up and down movement of the chien repeats 'approxiamately 293' times a second. I can only find hard-copy at the moment, but will scan it in and post the article on the UK hurdy-gurdy site. Dave
Re: [HG] How the trompette works - was a Newbie question
Marc said: Although this article gives a good way to comprehend the working of the chien I have some serious doubts about the 293 times... this is in no way explained and up to me this frequentie depends from many factors ... Weight of the chien, amount of rosin on the wheel and coton on the string, lengt of the string diameter tension. Who has a good explanation for those??? Here's how it works. For a moment, we're going to ignore the movement of chien, and just look at the way the string and the wheel interact. The wheel imparts its motion to the string by what is called the stick-slip model. We tend to think of strings as just vibrating back and forth, with the center moving the most, and the ends staying fixed. While it's a reasonable model for visualizing what's happening with a plucked string, it doesn't really work for a bowed string. The wheel sticks to the string and moves it sideways. If we're looking at a chanter string, this deflection is away from the player, because that's the direction the wheel is pulling on the string. This local disturbance (we can think of it as a kink) in the string moves up the string to the nut. The energy doesn't have anywhere to go, so it gets reflected back down the string, but now the deflection is toward the player. When this kink gets close enough to the wheel, the friction of the wheel on the string is no longer enough to keep the string stuck to the wheel, and the string slips back toward the player. The kink continues on and gets reflected by the bridge. Now it's deflected away from the player again, and the wheel and string are stuck together again. So - stick, slip, stick, slip. If this isn't clear, check out this great website at the University of New South Wales: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Bows.html There's a really nice animation that shows what I'm describing. How often this cycle repeats depends on the string tension and length. If the string is tuned to g', which is 293 cycles per second, the cycle will repeat 293 times per second. If we shorten the string to an a', now the string will vibrate at 440 cycles per second. Now back to the chien. When the kink is moving along the string, it will move the bridge or nut if it can. Obviously the string can't compress the chien down into the soundboard, so it can't move down, but the bridge CAN move up, so the string lifts it up. When the string slips on the wheel, the chien moves back down, and taps on the soundboard. From this we conclude that the chien will tap at the same frequency as the trompette string. For a trompette tuned in d', this will be 293 Hz (cycles per second). Alden
Re: [HG] kicked off?
Have I been kicked off the list? I haven't gotten anything in a week. I checked the archive and the list is going on. It looks as if you are posting OK, and I haven't seen any bounces from your address. If I get continual bounces from a bad address, I uns*bscribe that address. That's not the case here, as far as I can tell, since you're obviously still s*bscribed. It may be a Comcast problem. There have been problems in the past with Comcast changing their spam screening settings such that the HG list members don't get the posts. I usually got bounces when that happened, but they may be doing something that just makes the posts disappear into a black hole instead. Please contact me off-list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if problems continue. Alden
Castle Indianola - was Re: [HG] Castle Rappottenstein
Well, we don't have a 12th century castle to offer, but Cali and I were thinking about offering a build-your-own-gurdy experience in the summer in the Great Northwest of Washington State. Since the subject has come up, we thought we'd put it out there for people to think about. If there's enough support, we'll put it in the pipeline of things to work on. Alden
RE: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
Fi wrote, I know a lot a people who have bought various kits and made the instruments. Many of them have been happy with the results even though the instrument often requires a fair bit of tweaking. What is it about the hurdy gurdy that makes it particularly unsuited to kit form. Is it the lack of the trompette or the complex mechanicals? Good questions. Here's the problem: it's a complex instrument, and to build it well requires a certain level of precision. The Musikits instrument, for example, has a piece of 1/4 cold rolled steel rod threaded on each end for the shaft. In the time I have before I go to bed, I can't really even start to outline the mechanical problems with this choice in terms of stability, repeatability, precision and longevity. It's not that I have a hoity-toity attitude about these instruments, though I've gotten my share of letters telling me that I'm an arrogant elitist for rejecting the sound and playability of this instrument. It's just that if what we're looking for is a clean, rich sound, there's no way to get it with this shaft, these bearings (it doesn't have any) and this wheel, not to mention the keys, tangents, keybox, bridge, bracing, handle, crank, nuts (not movable), etc. It's like living in France for a year with the fabulous bakery just down the street where you can get fresh country bread every day, then coming back to the States and finding that the best you can get is three-day-old Wonder bread at Safeway. Yes, technically the French bread and the Wonder bread are both breads: they're made with flour and yeast, and they're baked in an oven, and they get sliced up so we can eat them... but there's a world of difference. The Wonder bread is a pale shadow of the Italian. Once you've tasted the French, you can't really go back. And yes, the Musikits doesn't have a trompette, which is so much of the fun of playing the HG that not having it seems such a waste. It's possible to retrofit the Musikits to have one, but it's not designed for it, certainly, and you'd HAVE to get a new handle too - the little button knob drawer-pull thing they give you is totally inadequate for playing the dog. OK, stepping off my soapbox now to go find some really good French bread... Alden
Re: [HG] The Hurdy Gurdy Kit Lady Fanatic Responds
Dear Kathy, Just as an aside -- I like you guys much better when you say what you think. I realize now that when I first introduced myself, all of you were thinking Oh Gawd -- she's got one of those awful kits. We'll just be polite and not say anything. Well how the hell am I supposed to learn anything that way? I think perhaps we were trying not to scare you away. ;-) It's pretty discouraging to post on a new group and have people be mean to you right away, yes? Second aside, for those of you who missed the first post: this kit was a gift from my husband, and part of the gift was his manpower and skill to do most of the building. Now, my husband is an attorney and works about 80 hours a week. Whatever time and skill he devotes to this he is basically taking out of his sleeping time. He is doing it because he wanted to give me something I've longed for, but he also wanted to make it himself, so that when I played it, he would part of it. If the gurdy never plays a goddamn note, that's a better present than a five figure custom built instrument. Now, down to brass tacks: Alden says: The Musikits instrument, for example, has a piece of 1/4 cold rolled steel rod threaded on each end for the shaft. In the time I have before I go to bed, I can't really even start to outline the mechanical problems with this choice in terms of stability, repeatability, precision and longevity. OK, fine -- so what is an acceptable modification? Why does this not work? I can understand that Alden, As noted, Cali on average spends more time in the shop than I do. I'm the more public face of OMI, but we're a team. who after all makes and sells a very desirable line of hurdy gurdies, is not obligated to help me salvage an instrument from a different maker, but if someone else wants to, for the sake of intellectual exchange, clarify what is wrong with this material and how someone reasonably adept at fiddling with wood and metal could improve the design (without access to a machine shop, I suppose I should add.) I'll try for the short version. The shaft and wheel are the heart of the instrument - if they don't work, nothing else will. With that in mind, we'll concentrate on those for the moment. Before identifying the problems with the Musikit and any possible solutions, I'll define the engineering problems and goals. Your goal is to have the wheel surface remain in constant contact with the strings with no variation in pressure or position. The system needs to have no runout either radially or axially - in other words, the wheel needs to be completely concentric with the shaft, so that the wheel surface doesn't move in and out (high spots and low spots) as the wheel is turned, and the wheel surface can't wobble from side to side. The shaft needs to be held in the body so that it allows the wheel to turn relatively freely, but doesn't move from side to side in the body, or in and out of the body. Both of these parameters are parts of the goals stated above: if the shaft moves from side to side or up and down, the wheel surface won't be in consistant contact. If the shaft moves in and out, the wheel surface will wobble (and you'll get nasty knocking sounds also). In addition, we want a shaft and wheel system that adds no noise to the sound of the instrument, and ideally it will be durable as well. So there are the problems. Now let's look at the Musikit's solutions. It's been a few years since I last looked at a Musikits (MK) instrument, but I doubt they have changed much in that time. The shaft material is 1/4 cold rolled steel. This material is intrinsically non-concentric - in short, it's not round. When I say not round I mean it's not round enough for our purposes. The HG wheel is sensitive to variations of less than 1/1000th of an inch, so having a shaft that varies by 10 or 20 thousandths is problematic. The HG shaft is usually secured by two bearings, one at the head end and one at the tail block. MK chooses to simply use holes drilled in the tail block and the tail brace (on the tail side of the wheel hole) for bearings. While there's a long tradition of wooden bearings, in this case they are inadequate, partially by their design, and partially by the placement of the headward one under the bridge instead of on the headward side of the wheel. The shaft is secured in position with some nuts and washers. While the shaft and wheel are removable, this means that if the wheel is ever removed (assuming it is scraped to roundness) it is most unlikely that the wheel will ever be replaced to the exact same position. In a nutshell, there are the problems with the shaft and bearings - the shaft is too short to go into a non-existent bearing on the head side of the wheel hole, and it has no distinct stop collar or shoulder for the wheel to butt up against, and the addition of such a stop collar would necessitate the tail hole being larger, and being filled in with a tail
[HG] cats and dogs
It depends on the cat or dog. Some of them love it, some can't stand it. Most seem indifferent. Your mileage may vary. Alden and dogs and cats will run from it Is this a common occurrence when playing the HG? I ask in all seriousness, because I am quite interested in getting an HG, but if it scares the cats, it won't be welcome in the house. The wife has a steel drum she doesn't play because the cats are literally terrified of it. Play a CD, no problem, but the actual instrument apparently has overtones in the ultrasonic range (above human hearing) they really upsets the little furries. Just tap one spot, and they run and cower...they never got used to it. Tom Frank
Re: Changing styles RE: [HG] purpose of my new project.
Fi - Wow... I feel kind of out of touch. I think I may have seen it about 30 years ago, but it's not exactly on my musical radar. Musical tastes change of course. One of the most obvious ones that just about everyone would know is the Disney movie Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Someday my Prince will Come??!?!?!? Not with that tremolo honey. Alden
Re: [HG] Reversed pegs
Arle - Strangely enough, our mechanical peg supplier recommends that the threads go in the opposite direction from that which I would have expected. For our pegs, which we tighten by turning to the left, I would have expected a left-hand (backwards) thread, but he intentionally sends us a standard right-hand thread. We've installed them both ways, and it doesn't seem to matter. Alden I just realized that I reversed the direction of the pegs in the images on Flickr (and in fact in my instrument) and have updated the images to show what I should have done (the only change is a reversal in the direction of the pegs). I didn't think some things through. Fortunately, because these pegs are glued it, it shouldn't matter too much, but I made a mistake in what I ordered and installed. I should have done the mirror image of what I in fact did. Nevertheless, aside from that blip, all seems to be well. I still think the pegs are great, and they work very well and are very stable thus far. Best, Arle
RE: [HG] Bearings
I'll throw in my 2 cents: 3-in-1 oil turns gummy after a while, leaving deposits that require disassembly and cleaning. We recommend a light bearing oil or a sewing machine oil that has less additives. One possibility is this Trinity oil available from Tower Hobbies or wherever else you can find it: http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?I=LXKC43P=M Your mileage may vary. Alden I have not followed this about oil and I suppose you are oiling metal bearings. 3 in 1 or any light oil should do. But if you are oiling a wooden bearing you should never us oil made from petrochemicals because it breaks down the cell walls. For this you should use 50/50 castor oil and pure natural turps. If it gets a bit sticky wash out with turps. Michael
Re: [HG] Can someone identify this instrument?
Yup, it's a hurdy-gurdy - one of the classic illuminated depictions thereof. Nice color! I've only ever seen this in b/w. This is a good reminder not to take iconographic sources too literally. I have a nice rant prepared for this occasion if anyone is interested... Alden http://www.threeleos.com/enlum1.jpg Guy number 2 in the lower half. Is this a strange lute thing, or is it a bad depiction of a gurdy? That is either a crank or a cranked neck. Any guesses? Cause if it is some general shape of gurdy, just without details depicted, I think I have found what I am looking for in size and shape and soundholes and such. Thanks Chris
[HG] Alden's rant on iconography, and a challenge
OK, you asked for it. ;-) Arle pretty much made my points for me already, so I'll just say this: In scholarly circles there is, perhaps, a dedication to the iconography that is unwarranted. The scholars go on and on about how the instrument shown in this source has this feature while this one doesn't showing that [insert your conclusion here]. This is all very well, but any time a conclusion is reached by serious study of the available drawings, paintings, engravings and sculptures, there should be a big disclaimer attached that the details of the source materials are suspect. We treat the iconography as if it's a photograph, because we're used to that level of truth in our world. So here's the challenge. Take out a pencil and blank paper. Draw a Fender Stratocaster electric guitar from memory. This is probably the most common instrument in the modern age, and even if you have absolutely no interest in rock music, you have probably seen the instrument literally hundreds of times. Don't worry if you can't draw, and don't worry about showing perspective, or showing the player (though you can if you want to). Please DON'T cheat and look up Stratocaster images on the web to work from - just work from memory, because that's the point of the experiment. Scan your drawing and email me the scan, or send it to me via snailmail. I'll post them all anonymously over the next week or so. I was going to write what I expect to see, but I think I'll wait until the experiment is over. Since I'm asking you all to do this, I'll post a drawing also. Remember, to make this experiment work, I need YOUR drawing. No one will laugh at it, I promise. Alden
[HG] Alden's rant, part 2
OK, ladies and gentlemen: For your viewing pleasure, here are the Stratocasters: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/guitars.htm At the bottom, there's a link to a photo of a Strat. But before you go there, consider the following: Based on the iconography: How many strings does the Strat have? How many pickups does the Strat have? How many knobs does it have? How many frets does it have? Some of these are easily answered from the drawings, some not so much. Michael Muskett already made my point for me pretty well, saying that the sculptors and artists were unlikely to be truly familiar with the instrument. Imagine researching an obscure instrument with no books, no Internet (horrors!) and only your own experiences and those of your collegues. \ Jocelyn makes a reasonable argument that the artists were professionals, while we who made the drawings are not. I could bolster this by noting that while fewer people were literate, people were better trained in observation and memorization than they are nowadays. But my point is that even though some of the contributors are very familiar with the instrument, nobody's drawing really accurately answers the questions. We could go on about this for a long time, and there's no real way to prove anything one way or another except with a time machine. I'm certainly not discounting the iconography - in fact I love it - but I'm also going to disagree pretty strongly with someone who takes its accuracy too seriously. Falling asleep at the keyboard, Alden
[HG] Alden's rant, part 3
The collection has two more guitar drawings: http://www.hurdygurdy.com/mailinglist/guitars.htm Alden
Re: [HG] Music
I think Louise Craig may already have plans to do this kind of thing in conjunction with the OTW cite so no need to duplicate efforts here. Thanks for thinking of this though. :-)-Cali As regards mug shots, I'm sure most of us have one on a web page somewhere (with or without our HG). I'm at www.ds-liverpool.co.uk which is a site I run for Down Syndrome in the UK (my son has that) but my mug is on it. I agree, it's nice to put a face to a name. Colin Hill. - Original Message - From: Roy Trotter To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Music We discussed an index in San Antonio, and are very limited by the copyright issue. Some very popular tunes : Les Poules Huppees, Avant de s'en Aller, and that one about the Limosine Piper are copyright. Sometimes the tune isn't, but the publication is. Tread carefully, it would be useful to have a reference to composers and copyrights, but might not be worth the work for you. Re: mug shot I might be doing you a favor to suppress mine. On the other hand you might be able to look at my picture and feel a lot better about yourself. Roy On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Minstrel Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? After being part of this email strong, and knowing how busy everyboy is, I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, and I thought over time, the woes could get out. Were a small community, it might be nice to have a bio page, where we all can have a roster, email addis and a mug shot, would be fun Ewing whom I'm typing to ;) Just a thought, any advice, any interest? Sent from my iPhone
[HG] Notice of instrument for sale.
Dear HG list, We have on consignment a guitar-shaped HG by Reichmann, $3500. I don't have pictures on the website yet - please contact us off-list if you are interested. Alden and Cali OMI [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HG] Adjustable bridge
Gary said: I wondered if anybody has seen a similar bridge used on a hurdy gurdy - it would save shimming. We thought so too, and we tried them for a while. Our goal was to make the instrument fully adjustable at each bridge and nut. We tried bridges split in the middle with the thumbwheels in between, and we tried making bridges with blackwood inserts that can be adjusted in height. Sadly, we were less than totally pleased with the sound. The chanter strings on the instruments with adjustable bridges sounded acceptable, but they are not as loud or rich or clear as we want them to be. We went back to solid wood bridges. Alden Hackmann Olympic Musical Instruments Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
Re: [HG] Adjustable bridge
A better question to ask is why you need an adjustable bridge in the first place? I would suspect that such constant adjustment is necessary because the instrument is not structurally sound or the bridge is not fixed properly. In our experience, shimming is just a fact of life with the HG. I'm going to disagree that it indicates that the instrument isn't structurally sound, because all HG's need it from time to time. There are several factors here. There's downward pressure on the bridge, so unless the bridge has no compressibility at all, it's going to bend a little under the pressure. The pressure from the bridge gets transmitted to the brace underneath it, and from there to the soundpost, and from there to the back. All of these are going to move a little bit over time. (If they don't, then the instrument is built very, very strongly, and it's not going to resonate.) In addition to the slow sinking under pressure, there are also the factors of temperature and humidity. Wood expands and contracts - this is a physical fact that we can't get around. We can minimize the effects by keeping the instrument in a hermetically sealed, temperature controlled environment, but it's hard to play that way. I concur with Alden and Esa; deal with the cause, not the symptom. I'm not sure I ever said that. What I said was that we'd tried it and it didn't work very well for us. Doesn't one of Murphy's Laws go something like this: If no one uses it, there must be a reason... I'll go with that, though it could just be that no one has found the right application yet. What's next - automatic tuning a la Gibson? Don't think that we haven't thought about it. I'm just waiting for the next three generations of stepper motors to come out so we can make them radio controlled, put them inside the tuning machines and control them as a Bluetooth device. ;-) Alden
Re: [HG] Adjustable bridge
Or it may be that you clicked on Weichselbaumer's name instead of the PHOTO of the instrument. Alden NB: Go to www.gurdygirl.com/instruments.html and click on the picture of the alto. This will give you a view of the bridge. You may need to allow pop-ups but I do not think so. Jane Ruckert
[HG] Administrivia: list problems with Comcast subscribers
Dear List, For a while now there have been some problems for list subscribers with Comcast addresses. We've traced the problem to a DNS identification error associated with our server. Unfortunately this error can't be solved without our provider. (It's a long story.) We're working on moving the list to a new server and new list software, but these things don't happen overnight. If you're a Comcast subscriber. please consider getting a temporary account from another provider for subscribing to the list. Stay tuned, Alden the Listmaster
[HG] Kits one more time
I came late to the kits and plans party, so I'll just add a few cents. We've talked about making a kit, and there are a bunch of problems. One of the biggest is the size of the market. Realistically, how many could we sell in a year? Five maybe? For what price? Let's say a round $1000. The parts and wood alone now would cost us a substantial part of that, not to mention the time prepping them to the point that the end user could put them together. Another problem is tools. We have a shopful of tools, and we pretty much use most of them them down to the last few hours of assembly. In particular the metal lathe is something I can't really do without. Sure, it's possible to field fit the tail bearing, but it would be a long and arduous process - hours and hours and hours to get it just so, and I doubt the finish would be as smooth as the lathe can cut it. The collection of hand tools and jigs and specialized bits and pieces... again, possible to do without, but not easy. Instructions: what to do? Show them how we do it with our specialized tools that we've accumulated over the last decade and a half? The kit builder isn't going to buy hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of tools just to build an instrument. Figure out an alternative method? Testing, testing, trial and error, try again... I don't think so. It was hard enough figuring it out the first time. ;-) OK, that's my 2 cents. I know the conversation already peaked, so I'm not expecting a response, but I just had to put my oar in. Alden
Re: [HG] Hurdy Gurdies in museums information
If this is the one I'm thinking of, it's a pretty badly worn Thouvenel or Colson. There may be others in the collection, but this is the one I know about. Alden Hi, This is mainly for the UK HGists does anybody have information or knowledge of Hurdy Gurdy`s at this location. Snowshill, nr Broadway, Gloucestershire WR12 7JU National Trust. collector Charles Wade Billy Horne
Re: [HG] Why must the wheel be removable?
In most cases it's unlikely that the player should need to be able to remove the wheel. However, the builder and the restorer/repair person are going to find life a lot easier if the wheel can be removed. Here are just a few of the reasons: - to be able to service or replace the bearings - to be able to repair, resurface or replace the wheel if something catastrophic should happen to it - to be able to get inside the body for making repairs: the wheel hole is the largest opening into body, and is relatively centrally located - to have a clear field to work when finishing or refinishing the instrument The thought of making an instrument with a non-removable wheel makes me somewhat dizzy, especially after removing (with some difficulty) the permanently mounted wheels of older instruments. Alden Hello, George Leverett and I are wondering why some players prefer to be able to remove the wheel? It seems to be a preference for some, but we've not found the reasons why. He's busy building and shipping instruments, so I thought I'd ask on his behalf, as I'm curious as well. Thanks a lot. Matthew
Re: [HG] 1660 pelican flight case????
Our Minstrel model was designed with the airlines in mind as well. It fits the dimensions for carry on luggage. It is light, stable, easy to play. Very rich sound and can compete with just about any other gurdy for volume. Just ask anyone who went to the San Antonio gathering this year :-) Cali Hackmann
Re: [HG] 1660 pelican flight case????
Dear Sylvain, I am very glad that everyone was impressed with the Chinook. It is a very fine instrument. As for it needing adjustment, Ben or any other experiences player should have told you that a brand new instrument needs time to settle in and especially one which has been sent from Washington State to Quebec where the weather is very, very different. In a very short time it will adjust and you will have a stable instrument which only needs to be tuned in the regular manner. If you read the instructions we send with the instrument you will find information about this. I'm also happy that Ben looked at the instrument for you and liked it. We respect Ben as an excellent player. However, Ben is not aware of all the factors and decisions which we use to set up an instrument for its optimal sound. Not all hurdy-gurdies are made alike and Alden and I have done a lot of research and have balanced all the factors to get the sound that we want. I'm sure each luthier on the list will tell you the same thing about their instruments. Sylvain, it is really important that you understand that the hurdy-gurdy list is not the place to send personal messages to Alden and I. We have private e-mail. Our address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do not send communications about business to the list. Have I made myself clear? We understand that english is not your first language and we are not worried about grammer. If I had to post in french I wouldn't do nearly so well. Just please follow the list rules and post on topic and appropriately and everything will be just fine. Cali Hackmann ho boy ,,i just read my message ...,,i made a lot of grammatical mistakes on my message . shame on me ,,shame on me ., sorry sylvain - Original Message - From: sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [HG] 1660 pelican flight case
Re: [HG] synthetic Wheels?
Good day all! Hello from the Over the Water festival. We do use a synthetic wheel in most of our instruments. We have been through a couple of formulations but, we are very pleased with the current results and we have been using this formula for a couple of years now. It is no longer necessary to use liquid rosin on our wheel. You can use ordinary violin rosin and after the initial settling-in period you only rosin them as often as you would a wood wheel. The reason we use a cast wheel is because it is more stable and produces a sweet and resonant tone. We don't wash our wheels, but it is very easy to clean finger grease and other contaminants from the wheel surface and it is rare to have to rescrape the wheel. These are not injection molded plastics. They are a special formulation on the inner wheel and band of casting resin and are hand cast and final shaped on the lathe and then hand scraped. Please understand that I love wood and the traditional look and feel of wood. I also know that the wheel is the heart of the hurdy-gurdy and if it has a problem your whole instrument has a problem. So, making the wheel of a material that is stable, attractive, protective and gives an excellent tone makes sense. Esthetics are a matter of personal taste, I think that the wheels that Wolfgang uses and the ones that we use are pleasing and in character with the instrument. I use MDF for lots of jigs and things in the workshop, but it wouldn't be my first choice for a wheel material, but that is just my taste, your mileage may vary. And I know that they do use MDF for many different types of furniture but, if I put a drop of water on a piece of MDF in our workshop, in a very short period of time there is a raised area which is difficult to sand out. Perhaps there are different formulations? I have only seen one but that doesn't mean there aren't others I am not aware of. We have put a lot of thought into our instruments and want to build an instrument that is as player friendly as possible. We are also trying to keep costs reasonable and so we look to the best material to do the job. We ship our instruments all over the world and it makes sense to use a material that will remain very stable in many different playing environments. Cali Hackmann
Re: [HG] synthetic Wheels?
Dear Arle, I think by the time I had faced, banded, etc. that I would prefer to use a voidless baltic birch ply with a band which is also very stable and I would save a step by not having to face the wheel. This is what we have done in the past and it works well. We are all looking for a good solution and it is nice to have options. :-) Cali Hi Cali, I think you are correct: it doesn't stand up to direct water contact, but humidity alone is not such a big deal. I forgot to add that in bathroom furniture it is laminated with melamine to stand up to direct contact with water for the reason you mention. I personally wouldn't use MDF aone for a wheel just for aesthetic reasons: I don't like the look. I would need to band it and face it as well. I believe it is possible to get birch-faced MDF as well, and that could look very nice when banded, almost identical to a real wheel. Neil said that MDF is too rough for a wheel edge. I do believe that there are different grades of fineness, so maybe that makes a difference, but I'm not sure. -Arle I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks: Everyone Read!
Dear HG List members There are several issues I would like to address here. Please read them all, as they concern you whether you are an active poster or a lurker. First, I can appreciate that off-list discussions occur, which is appropriate. There are many things that should not be discussed on the list: Sarah Palin, the Argentine national debt, how to transplant begonias, and so on. The list is meant for hurdy-gurdy discussions. The time to take the discussion off the list is when it's no longer about hurdy-gurdies or some aspect of them. As listmaster, my definition of this is pretty broad. If it is about some aspect of hurdy-gurdies, then the discussion can and should stay here, even if you don't think it will interest everyone on the list. Consider that no matter what the topic, someone on the list is certain to simply delete it. Second, our community is pretty small, so I hope we can keep everything in one place. If we were overwhelmed with messages from list with 20,000 members (just think of having that many HG players...) then it would be time to subdivide. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. Third, my thanks to Arle for reminding me of the need to move this list to a new location. I went out this morning and tested Google Groups, which seems a reasonable place to relocate to. I will be moving the list to Google Groups within the next day or two. This transition should be transparent: I'll set everyone up to receive the list posts just as you do now. After the transition is complete, you will be able to go to google-groups and change your parameters. For instance, you will be able to choose to receive the list as a digest. If you do nothing, you will continue to receive the list posts as you do now. Listmasteringly yours, Alden I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks about gmail
You don't need a gmail account. All you need is your current email The Google Groups help information at http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46438cbid=-maem9jqr8uousrc=cblev=index seems to say that participation in a Google Group via a non-google email address is possible. I've been unable to track down details of how to do it, and have been unsuccessful with several other groups getting a subscription to work with anything except a gmail address. I hope Alden has found more information than I have about how to set up a google group to successfully work with email only subscriptions. -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL, USA - Original Message From: Simon Wascher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:52:37 PM Subject: Re: [HG] The Listmaster Speaks: the new group is active Hello, I will not set up an google account. If this is required to read/post to this listin the future I will opt out. Hope that is not the case. Sorry, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria Am 29.09.2008 um 22:36 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you don't already have a Google Groups account, it will take you to where you create one. I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks about how to subscribe.
Dear Listmembers, Sorry, that got last message got sent before I was ready. You don't need a gmail account. All you need is - your current email - the ability to use an internet browser - a Google Groups account You only need the browser and the Google Groups for the day you subscribe to the list. Once more, with a little more explanation: Use your web browser to go to this webpage: http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy/ Click on the link at the right side that says Join this group. If you don't already have a Google Groups account, it will take you to where you create one. This is very easy: enter your email address and a password, and whatever nickname you want to be known by. If you already have a Google Groups account, you can sign in. If you have a Google Groups account and don't remember the password, there's a link to ask it to send you the password. Note that this is NOT an obligatory signup for a gmail account. Also, once you are subscribed to the new HG list, you need never use the Google Groups account for anything ever again. You'll now get an email in your usual email account which contains a link to confirm that you want to create the Google Groups account. Click on this link. You will now be back in the HG list group on Google Groups, where you can specify how you want to receive the postings from the group. You are now signed up with Google Groups, and you are subscribed to the list. All email postings to the new group have [HG-new] at the beginning of the subject line. We'll let discussions here wind down. Please start any new discussions on the new list. When you subscribe to the new list, you'll be able to see the archives, so you won't have missed anything. If you need help subscribing yourself, please contact me at this address, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alden the Listmaster The Google Groups help information at http://groups.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=46438cbid=-maem9jqr8uousrc=cblev=index seems to say that participation in a Google Group via a non-google email address is possible. I've been unable to track down details of how to do it, and have been unsuccessful with several other groups getting a subscription to work with anything except a gmail address. I hope Alden has found more information than I have about how to set up a google group to successfully work with email only subscriptions. -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL, USA - Original Message From: Simon Wascher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:52:37 PM Subject: Re: [HG] The Listmaster Speaks: the new group is active Hello, I will not set up an google account. If this is required to read/post to this listin the future I will opt out. Hope that is not the case. Sorry, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria Am 29.09.2008 um 22:36 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you don't already have a Google Groups account, it will take you to where you create one. I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks: some difficulties with moving
Dear HG Listmembers, Most people seem to be making the transition to the new list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) without too much trouble. This being real life, there are always some complications. If you sign up on the Google Groups list, you should be getting a confirming email that you need to answer before your membership on the list becomes activated. This is to keep spammers from signing you up for groups that you don't want to be on. Some people are experiencing difficulty because they never get the confirming email. Sometimes I think it just gets lost in the cyber-ether. Sometimes spam-blocking software will either bounce it back or just put it in your Trash folder or some such. If you have tried signing up for the new list and have not gotten the confirming email, look in your Spam or Trash folder. If it's not there, contact me, and I can sign you up. I'm setting a target date of October 15th for shutting down this list. Please start all new conversations on the new list. Alden the Listmaster I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
[HG] The Listmaster Speaks: Reminder of how to migrate
Dear Listmembers, So far some 90 people have migrated to the new list. There are still over 200 addresses on the old list who haven't moved yet. Just a reminder of how to do it: Use your web browser to go to this webpage: http://groups.google.com/group/hurdygurdy/ Click on the link at the right side that says Join this group. If you don't already have a Google Groups account, it will take you to where you create one. This is very easy: enter your email address and a password, and whatever nickname you want to be known by. If you already have a Google Groups account, you can sign in. If you have a Google Groups account and don't remember the password, there's a link to ask it to send you the password. You'll now get a confirming email in your usual email account which contains a link to confirm that you want to create the Google Groups account. Click on this link. For some people, this confirming email may go in the Spam folder or the Trash folder, so look for it there if you don't get the email pretty soon after creating your Google Groups account. You will now be back in the HG list group on Google Groups, where you can specify how you want to receive the postings from the group. You are now signed up with Google Groups, and you are subscribed to the list. All email postings to the new group have [HG-new] at the beginning of the subject line. We'll let discussions on the old [HG] wind down. Please start any new discussions on the new list. When you subscribe to the new list, you'll be able to see the archives, so you won't have missed anything. If you need help subscribing yourself, please contact me at this address, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are uncomfortable with having a Google Groups account, I can subscribe you without one. Remember, the [HG] list will be retired on or about the 15th of October. Alden the Listmaster I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
Re: [HG] (HG) Moving problems
I subscribed you manually, so you should now be able to post. Alden the Listmaster Sorry, I can't get a Google account: the page keeps freezing. I can't even contact them about the problem :( ** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News amp; more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew0001) I pressed on, taking fresh trouble for granted - Juan Francisco de la Bodega y Quadra
