Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Dave Morriss]

On 25/08/2020 18:17, Kevin O'Brien wrote:
> I think I have the same question as brian-in-ohio. I submit my show
> notes in plain text, and to do this I just put the links in as plain
> addresses. If there is a better way to do it, I need to know what that
> way is.

I most often process incoming show notes. If they are plain text then I
turn them into Markdown. I wrote a Perl script (make_markdown) that
recognises URLs, determines if they are pictures or not and rewrites
them to be suitable for the Pandoc processor. I call the script from Vim
which is my editor of choice.

The links generated by this method in the final HTML look like:

URL

For my own shows I use Markdown and Pandoc and send in the HTML that's
generated.

Dave

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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Kevin O'Brien]

I think I have the same question as brian-in-ohio. I submit my show notes
in plain text, and to do this I just put the links in as plain addresses.
If there is a better way to do it, I need to know what that way is.

Regards,


-- 
Kevin B. O'Brien
z wil...@zwilnik.com
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http://about.me/zwilnik
“People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be
afraid of their people.” - Alan Moore, *V for Vendetta*
*Public Key = F6283E7A *



On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:25 AM Ken Fallon  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> We will be checking for this from now on. If you have time, I can send
> you links to the shows after they have been posted so you can verify
> them before they go live.
>
> Ken.
>
>
> On 2020-08-25 17:15, Mike Ray wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Dave. It's a very subtle thing, but it is one of the more serious
> > accessibility gaffs guaranteed to have me shouting at the computer, if I
> > haven't already got a sore throat from shouting at the Today programme.
> >
> > Unfortunately HTML5 has introduced some 'interesting' accessibility
> > gaffs. But at least these days people are not using tables to format Web
> > content. Tables are for tabular data. Libraries like bootstrap are
> > fantastic now for responsive Web content that works right on all types
> > of screen.
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>
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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Dave Morriss]

On 24/08/2020 17:25, Mike Ray wrote:
> Hello guys and gals,
> 
> I'm currently working on a project using Template::Toolkit, and finding
> Dave's show notes on this subject very useful.

Hi Mike,

Glad my Template::Toolkit stuff has proven useful. I use it daily since
it's behind the notes for all my shows and quite a number of other
document generation tasks I carry out.

> I have a small favour to ask with reference to writing show notes and
> accessibility for those of us using screen readers.
> 
> All the screen readers I use have 'landmark' navigation keys.
> 
> Typically one can press a particular key and jump between HTML tags.
> 
> For example, I can jump from link-to-link using NVDA in Windows with the
> 'k' key.
> 
> And here is the accessibility bit.
> 
> If the page is sprinkled with this kind of thing:
> 
> You can find the instructions for feeding elephants  href="page">here
> 
> If I jump to that link, my screen reader says 'here'.  Well, what is here?
> 
> Better to write it:
> 
> You can find the instructions for feeding elephants
> here
> 
> Markdown allows that kind of thing too.

Guilty as charged!

I usually try not to do this but I realise I have some boilerplate files
that contain the Markdown equivalent. I know it's generally bad form but
I could not have said exactly why until I read your email.

I shall desist henceforward.

Regards,
Dave

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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Ken Fallon]

Hi Mike,

We will be checking for this from now on. If you have time, I can send
you links to the shows after they have been posted so you can verify
them before they go live.

Ken.


On 2020-08-25 17:15, Mike Ray wrote:
> 
> Thanks Dave. It's a very subtle thing, but it is one of the more serious
> accessibility gaffs guaranteed to have me shouting at the computer, if I
> haven't already got a sore throat from shouting at the Today programme.
> 
> Unfortunately HTML5 has introduced some 'interesting' accessibility
> gaffs. But at least these days people are not using tables to format Web
> content. Tables are for tabular data. Libraries like bootstrap are
> fantastic now for responsive Web content that works right on all types
> of screen.
> 


-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Mike Ray]

Thanks Dave. It's a very subtle thing, but it is one of the more serious
accessibility gaffs guaranteed to have me shouting at the computer, if I
haven't already got a sore throat from shouting at the Today programme.

Unfortunately HTML5 has introduced some 'interesting' accessibility
gaffs. But at least these days people are not using tables to format Web
content. Tables are for tabular data. Libraries like bootstrap are
fantastic now for responsive Web content that works right on all types
of screen.




On 25/08/2020 14:50, Dave Morriss wrote:
> On 25/08/2020 12:59, Mike Ray wrote:
>> Little windows that come up when the mouse hovers over, tool tips you
>> could call them, are worse than useless, since blind folks mostly do not
>> use the mouse.
>>
>> Most screen readers have a keyboard way of moving the mouse pointer to
>> where the virtual review cursor is, and then simulating a left or right
>> click with the keyboard, but these little hovers do not show up. It may
>> be a setting in my screen reader, but those things are distracting.
>>
>> Better to link as much of the sentence is necessary to describe where
>> the link goes instead of just 'here'.
>>
>> I think it is bootstrap that provides a 'popper' to do the little tool
>> tips, but again, pretty useless for us.
> 
> OK, that's what I wanted to know. Titles are just for pop-ups and aren't
> useful for screen readers.
> 
> I won't stop using them but will try and make the link text more
> meaningful in stuff that I write.
> 
>> I am doing this from memory, but I think markdown is something like:
>>
>> [Find the Template manual here][tt]
>>
>> And then:
>>
>> [tt]: 
>>
>> That would work better than:
>>
>> Find the Template manual [here][tt]
>>
>> Because again that will create a link that just says 'here'.
> 
> You are correct, that's how it's done. It's a useful feature for me
> because I can make several references to the same link, but I take the
> point that the link text is the key part for blind users.
> 
> Dave
> 
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-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/



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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Dave Morriss]

On 25/08/2020 12:59, Mike Ray wrote:
> Little windows that come up when the mouse hovers over, tool tips you
> could call them, are worse than useless, since blind folks mostly do not
> use the mouse.
> 
> Most screen readers have a keyboard way of moving the mouse pointer to
> where the virtual review cursor is, and then simulating a left or right
> click with the keyboard, but these little hovers do not show up. It may
> be a setting in my screen reader, but those things are distracting.
> 
> Better to link as much of the sentence is necessary to describe where
> the link goes instead of just 'here'.
> 
> I think it is bootstrap that provides a 'popper' to do the little tool
> tips, but again, pretty useless for us.

OK, that's what I wanted to know. Titles are just for pop-ups and aren't
useful for screen readers.

I won't stop using them but will try and make the link text more
meaningful in stuff that I write.

> I am doing this from memory, but I think markdown is something like:
> 
> [Find the Template manual here][tt]
> 
> And then:
> 
> [tt]: 
> 
> That would work better than:
> 
> Find the Template manual [here][tt]
> 
> Because again that will create a link that just says 'here'.

You are correct, that's how it's done. It's a useful feature for me
because I can make several references to the same link, but I take the
point that the link text is the key part for blind users.

Dave

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[Hpr] Free UK Foundation Ham Radio Course

[Ken Fallon]

Hi UK Hackers,

The next free amateur radio Foundation Online training course run by
volunteers from Essex Ham starts on September 6

The RSGB's introduction of online exams that can be taken at home has
led to a surge in demand for free online amateur radio training courses
such as that run by Essex Ham.

You can find out more about online training and register to join a course at
https://www.essexham.co.uk/train/foundation-online/

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Brian]

How about doing a show to explain this to people who want to help, but 
still give show notes in plain text


brian-in-ohio

On 8/25/20 7:59 AM, Mike Ray wrote:


Little windows that come up when the mouse hovers over, tool tips you
could call them, are worse than useless, since blind folks mostly do not
use the mouse.

Most screen readers have a keyboard way of moving the mouse pointer to
where the virtual review cursor is, and then simulating a left or right
click with the keyboard, but these little hovers do not show up. It may
be a setting in my screen reader, but those things are distracting.

Better to link as much of the sentence is necessary to describe where
the link goes instead of just 'here'.

I think it is bootstrap that provides a 'popper' to do the little tool
tips, but again, pretty useless for us.

I am doing this from memory, but I think markdown is something like:

[Find the Template manual here][tt]

And then:

[tt]: 

That would work better than:

Find the Template manual [here][tt]

Because again that will create a link that just says 'here'.

Mike




On 25/08/2020 12:40, Dave Morriss wrote:

On 24/08/2020 17:25, Mike Ray wrote:

You can find the instructions for feeding elephants
here

In Markdown there's a so-called "reference link" through which a title
can be provided. This populates the 'title' attribute in the link. I use
these in my notes a moderate amount, partly because hovering over the
link shows the title.

Do screen readers read the title attribute at all? If they do is it
helpful, since it doesn't necessarily provide the sort of information
that you're referring to?

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Mike Ray]

Little windows that come up when the mouse hovers over, tool tips you
could call them, are worse than useless, since blind folks mostly do not
use the mouse.

Most screen readers have a keyboard way of moving the mouse pointer to
where the virtual review cursor is, and then simulating a left or right
click with the keyboard, but these little hovers do not show up. It may
be a setting in my screen reader, but those things are distracting.

Better to link as much of the sentence is necessary to describe where
the link goes instead of just 'here'.

I think it is bootstrap that provides a 'popper' to do the little tool
tips, but again, pretty useless for us.

I am doing this from memory, but I think markdown is something like:

[Find the Template manual here][tt]

And then:

[tt]: 

That would work better than:

Find the Template manual [here][tt]

Because again that will create a link that just says 'here'.

Mike




On 25/08/2020 12:40, Dave Morriss wrote:
> On 24/08/2020 17:25, Mike Ray wrote:
>> You can find the instructions for feeding elephants
>> here
> 
> In Markdown there's a so-called "reference link" through which a title
> can be provided. This populates the 'title' attribute in the link. I use
> these in my notes a moderate amount, partly because hovering over the
> link shows the title.
> 
> Do screen readers read the title attribute at all? If they do is it
> helpful, since it doesn't necessarily provide the sort of information
> that you're referring to?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
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-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/



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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Dave Morriss]

On 24/08/2020 17:25, Mike Ray wrote:
> You can find the instructions for feeding elephants
> here

In Markdown there's a so-called "reference link" through which a title
can be provided. This populates the 'title' attribute in the link. I use
these in my notes a moderate amount, partly because hovering over the
link shows the title.

Do screen readers read the title attribute at all? If they do is it
helpful, since it doesn't necessarily provide the sort of information
that you're referring to?

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Mike Ray]

Hello,

If a site has only the word 'here' linked in multiple links that take
the user to lots of different resources, then navigating those links by
using the keyboard to jump from link to link, the screen reader says
"here, here, here, here, here."

But what is here?

You should make at least a sensible portion of the sentence a link so
the user using a screen reader knows what each link is, without having
to use the arrow keys to read the full sentence.

Mike


On 25/08/2020 12:14, Thaj A. Sara wrote:
> So just to clarify for myself, it is preferable for accessibility to make an 
> entire sentence a link instead of individual words?
> 
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-- 
Michael A. Ray
Analyst/Programmer
Witley, Surrey, South-east UK

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery


https://cromarty.github.io/
http://eyesfreelinux.ninja/
http://www.raspberryvi.org/



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[Hpr] Note about accessibility in show notes

[Thaj A. Sara]

So just to clarify for myself, it is preferable for accessibility to make an 
entire sentence a link instead of individual words?

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