In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 10/13/2007
at 10:05 PM, Andrew McLaren [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
(*Once I was solemnly informed by an IT manager that only two operating
systems exit for IBM mainframes: MVS and VM! What? No DPPX/370?? :-)
No ACP, no DOS, no IX/370, no MTS, no OS/VS1, no SVS, no
Design counts - always has - always will.
ADABAS got rewritten to 64bit addressability bufferpools with what they call
ADABAS 2006. I don't know how widely implemented it is.
The design target for ADABAS is closer to IMS than DB2 because it supports
multiple occurences for fields in the same
On 12 Oct 2007 07:07:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (R.S.) wrote:
Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on
mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk of starting new war I
can provide some examples:
a) VSE. It is obsolete, insecure, in fact moribound.
From the perspective of a heavy DB2 shop, the difference between a
properly designed and tuned DB2 application and the same DB2 application
that is not well designed or tuned can easily be 2 to 3 orders of
magnitude difference in CPU and response time. To have confidence that
any comparison
Pardon the topic drift, but ...
I'd tended to assume VSE was more common in Europe, Middle East, or here in
Australia. When I've mentioned VSE to Americans, sometimes they don't even
know it exists (okay, granted: these were very poorly informed folks*! but
anyways ..)
It sounds, from the
: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
Pardon the topic drift, but ...
I'd tended to assume VSE was more common in Europe, Middle East, or here in
Australia. When I've mentioned VSE to Americans, sometimes they don't even
know it exists (okay, granted: these were very poorly informed folks
Radoslaw
You have been reading too many ill-informed Anton comments
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that TPF is
dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees for his learned
opinion!
IMS - as others have commented, almost every time you
: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Jaffe
Sent: Friday, 12 October, 2007 10:17
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
A L Hughes wrote:
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!
Or the latest z/VSE
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:00 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
[...]
The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still
R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
[...]
The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably
because
they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.
Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of
Radoslaw,
Let me give a different view about IMS. If one takes a different
perspective and looks at the historical timeline, many companies
developed their core infrastructure applications during the 1970's, and
IMS was well-suited for it. These applications have proved enduring and
scalable, and
A L Hughes wrote:
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV!
Or the latest z/VSE announcement at
http://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/8/897/ENUS207-228/ENUS207228.PDF
--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 10/09/2007
at 11:36 AM, Anton Britz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Tell me , what should I invest my money in ?
SCOX.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html
We don't care. We don't have to
Suggest that you ask your question on Yahoo Message boards. I think your
diatribe would be better directed there, from what I have read..
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote:
[...]
The reason why both(DB2/Adabas) are still with us is probably because
they ultimately offer a different set of benefits to their users.
Bad assumption IMHO. Mainframe is a dino, a lot of things still exist on
mainframe because of conservative users. At a risk
A L Hughes wrote:
Radoslaw
You have been reading too many ill-informed Anton comments
Well... no comments.
VSE is NOT dead by any means. Catch the WAVV! And if you think that TPF is
dead, just check how many airlines use it every day. Ask Kees for his learned
opinion!
Is the
Is the customer base growing? Maybe, maybe not, only IBM knows. But I
certainly wouldn't use that classify it as a dead operating system. IBM
is still putting a fair amount of investment into it, 64-bit real
support, VSE Connectors, new device capabilities. Hardly the mark of a
dead
TPF running, there is an
advantage to size.
Itschak
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of A L Hughes
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
Radoslaw
You
Radoslaw,
You are mistaken. IBM has had double-digit new license growth in IMS for
several years now.
Tom Harper
NEON Enterprise Software, Inc.
Radoslaw Skorupka wrote:
There are possibly no new IMS customers in even in
mainframe world.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Anton Britz
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:46 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
Hi,
Phew... why did I not just stay out of this in the first place ?
Ok...as Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes, All we need is a leader
Itschak,
I started in the COBOL arena, I briefly programmed in Natural/ADABAS for
the SA Revenue back in the 80's and touched on DB2 when I managed 3 DB2
training systems for IBM SA back in 96-98. They were DB2 of course.
My thinking is this... Natural is very easy to program, but very
expensive
Anton
Just to show that I do not have anything against any Mohammed out there :
I don't have anything against Antons either, though I do find the name
Bhootnath a little spooky.
Questions :
a) How many shops that tried to convert , have you spoken too
b) How many conversions have you done
I've started wondering who that expert was. There is a lot of passionate
defense coming from Anton.
Mohammad
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:08:28 -0400, John S. Giltner, Jr.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You seem to make a point to question other knowledge and ask them to
explain what makes them an
It's funny you should mention the provided utilities. IBM recently
(last year? The year before?) unbundled at least some of their
utilities from the base DBMS. You have to buy them separately now.
Jon
snip
Also, I believe that there are more DB2 and IMS utilities available than
there
are
Could you ask your expert if ADABAS exploits SMS? As far as I know, an
ADABAS database is a set of pre-formatted datasets and needs to be
extended using ADABAS utilities? Since IMS and DB2 are able to extend using
SMS rules, that would be one positive aspect of maintainability.
Also, I believe
Hi Herbie,
Thanks for the posting but if you'all keep the Subject line the same , the
discussions stay in the same thread.
Some of us only read certain threads in here...
You have a valid point but that was not the original question.
Anton
Mohammed,
I will explain what I meant in my posting :
a) My opening statement was refering to what you hear on your TV these
days and the Geneva conventions. Never mind...
b) Facts to support my views ? I was pointing you to papers available on the
Web. I can not write 50 pages in the
Anton,
Aren't you just a very diligent guy, my heart goes out to you,:-)
honestly, you must be working at least bout 19? hours a day to give
your employer value for his money especially as you are spending at
least ??? of them guarding our list for us... good job!!! That is to say
if you
Herbie,
Just think about what you type in the Subject line of your postings...
If you change it, you start another discussion THREAD and then you will be
ignored. Nobody will pay any attention to your point... Not sure if you get
it...
Conclusion :
All the other things you should not
Jeez..
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:50 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster?
Herbie,
Just think about what you type in the Subject line
Anton,
The original question was ADABAS vs. IMS vs. DB2 Who is faster, I
know that the thread has been abused to propagate someone's so-called
expertise, it has also been abused to rant...
snip a) My opening statement was referring to what you hear on your
TV these
days and the Geneva
Hi,
Sure.. you can wonder like most people do in a bar but you must have
concluded that people make decisions about Database Software emotionally...
Eventually IBM plays the fear factor as can be seen in the politics of
the day.
As in American politics... Religious factor in Israel...
It
Anton
Could you include some links to these papers ?
Mohammad
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:26:51 -0500, Anton Britz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
b) Facts to support my views ? I was pointing you to papers available on the
Web. I can not write 50 pages in the middle of a bar because maybe you
have seen
Did you have a different answer than Allan's It depends, or were
simply taking the opportunity once again to take a potshot at someone
for no good reason?
Jon
snip
Summarized :
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
Hi,
Pot Shot at some one ?
I do not subscribe to this list to take a Pot Shot at any one but as they
taught me in the Dale Carnegie courses many years a'go, you should always
state your point clearly otherwise some people might not get it..
The Point I was trying to make :
Would you
. . . except that you haven't done anything to answer the original
question, from Itschak: I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist
that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
Radoslaw and Allan, among others, have actually attempted
On 10/10/07, Anton Britz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30 years.
Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2 courses in Dallas but
then again, if you where subscribed to any of the Database email lists, I
would
not have to
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Anton Britz
How did you get out of my killfile??
Well, since you're here (for now).
Summary:
Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the
last 30 years.
Yet, in the quoted portions of your
Hi,
Phew... why did I not just stay out of this in the first place ?
Ok...as Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes, All we need is a leader with
integrity, can listen and make reasonably conclusions... so let me try and do
some of this :
You are suppose to first find out why people are asking you
: quarta-feira, 10 de outubro de 2007 12:55
Para: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Assunto: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
On 10/10/07, Anton Britz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, I have been working with Adabas, IMS and DB2 for the last 30
years.
Even went back to IBM 4 years a'go to do all the DB2
SNIP
Enough said... and this is my last posting, for those that had enough
of this serious talk in a bar.
Anton Britz
SNIP
One can only hope.
--
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send email to
Two excellent points. The first design decision mentioned -- re
resource accounting -- is helpful in many ways but makes this particular
comparison fairly difficult.
It is also worth noting -- and I think someone may have already
mentioned this -- that different DBMSes often perform well at
And what makes you believe it to be IBM's or DB2's fault ? Conversion crew's
lack of DB2 expertise might have been a reason.
Mohammad
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:45:41 -0500, Anton Britz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
snip
d) ADABAS doesn't scale to
really large applications the way DB2 does and it
Hi,
Jon wants us all to play nicely and I would try and show respect to the other
innocent participants :
a) GENTLEMAN
In Idaho we don't talk about these things any more, only about those that can
stretch their legs real wide in a Airport bathroom and live on a private Yacht
Club.
b) WLM
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anton Britz
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 3:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: RES: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
Hi,
Jon wants us all to play nicely and I would try and show
Mohammed,
Just to show that I do not have anything against any Mohammed out there :
Questions :
a) How many shops that tried to convert , have you spoken too
b) How many conversions have you done because it sounds like I challenged
your Db2 knowledge... which was not part of the original
You seem to make a point to question other knowledge and ask them to
explain what makes them an expert.
And just how do you know how much this Adabas expert knows about IMS
and DB2?
What makes him right?
Anton Britz wrote:
Let's focus ? The original question was Who is faster, use
snip
Subject: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS
is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
/snip
As with most things in this business, it depends.
The first question to ask is What source
there is lots of people that claim that they are experts..
specially if they work in a cage for a big company.
Anton
On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:11:23 -0500, Staller, Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
snip
Subject: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed
snip
Please can you explain to your audience how long have you been around
and
how long have you been workling with Adabas, IMS and DB2 ?
/snip
I have been a MVS systems programmer for about 35 years. I have worked
with IMS and DB2 for about 5 years. I have never worked with ADABAS.
I have no
Hi,
Summarized :
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b) You only worked with IMS and DB2 for 5 years... maybe as a user
but you are talking about :
a) SQL
b) Database access methods
c) Which Database people should be using
Summarized :
Are you working for the 'White house maybe
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anton Britz
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
Hi,
Summarized :
a) So you never worked with ADABAS in your life
b
I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago. What I remember was the
SVC that modified itself and still running with 24 bit addressability.
Don't get me wrong - I could write amazing programs in Natural in just a
couple of hours but the other restrictions were painfull. Went on an
Thank goodness our moral compass is still around...
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:37 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
Hi,
Summarized
is faster?
Thank goodness our moral compass is still around...
-Original Message-From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anton BritzSent: Tuesday, October
09, 2007 12:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2
Who is faster?
Hi,
Summarized
Hi,
Come on Cics guy...
There is a lot of us reading most of this junk on IBM-MAIN and :
a) Asking a question
b) Making a statement on what you really know well
is acceptably to most...
but how big is your World if you make a signon called Cics Guy and then want
to talk about morality ?
Hi,
I am 100% convinced, the computer world in the USA is like another Iraq
story...
Here we have another person that worked with Adabas 20 years a'go and he
wants to compare Databases.
You can be succesful in the USA ... hang in there.. stay the course.
Anton Britz
7 13:23:49 -0500, Mike
: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
I supported ADABAS for 2 years about 20 years ago. What I remember was
the SVC that modified itself and still running with 24 bit
addressability.
Don't get me wrong - I could write amazing
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Jones, Kelly (Indust, PTL)
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:29 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADABAS vs IMS vs DB2 Who is faster?
Hello Mike,
Most of the restrictions in the classes you
I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
Itschak
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Itschak Mugzach wrote:
I spoke few days ago with an ADABAS specialist that claimed that ADABAS is
much faster and has low overhead compared to IMS and DB2. Is this true?
Apples and oranges. There is no reason to compare speed of IMS to DB2.
IMS is not relational database, so it works in quite
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