Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Tom Marchant]

Give it a rest Bill.
No one here ever said that they know it all.
Hundreds of times a week? Nope.
Lately you come the closest. Of the 382 posts this month, 48 are from you. And 
many of those include complaints about people who you claim know less than you, 
and a lot of boasting about your knowledge and qualifications.

Sorry for feeding the trolls.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 23:38:39 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>First off, I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend 
>simple English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at 
>everything and post hundreds of times a week.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

You still retired? Golfing? How’s everything?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:44 PM, william janulin 
<008d52e04f2e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our 
jobs care demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests 
that help no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can 
benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 19:39, Bill 
Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  First off, I’ve 
NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend simple English. 
But, there are some here who think they are an expert at everything and post 
hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this week has been proven 
wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real banks. ING has been a 
disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. Everything I’ve said about me 
is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my intelligence against mostly 
those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m used to the attacks. If you 
google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>> 

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Steve Thompson]

++1

On 4/7/2023 7:43 PM, william janulin wrote:

I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our jobs care 
demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests that help 
no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J.



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[william janulin]

I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our 
jobs care demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests 
that help no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can 
benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 19:39, Bill 
Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:   First off, 
I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend simple 
English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at everything 
and post hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this week has 
been proven wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real banks. ING 
has been a disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. Everything I’ve 
said about me is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my intelligence 
against mostly those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m used to the 
attacks. If you google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>>  >>
>>  >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>  >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

First off, I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend 
simple English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at 
everything and post hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this 
week has been proven wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real 
banks. ING has been a disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. 
Everything I’ve said about me is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my 
intelligence against mostly those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m 
used to the attacks. If you google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David 
post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>>  >>
>>  >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>  >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>  >>
>>  >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>  >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>  >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>  >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>  >>employees or just one person working from home.

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Many here are prime examples.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:


 No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
 
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Doug 

 Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
 Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

 "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

 Describing you, I'd venture


 Doug Fuerst


 -- Original Message --
 From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
 Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
 value]

 >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, lawyers, 
and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
 >
 >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
 >
 >
 >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 >
 >
 >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
 >
 >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
 >
 >Doug Fuerst
 >
 >
 >-- Original Message --
 >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
 >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
 >value]
 >
 >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
 >>
 
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
 >>
 >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.
 >>
 >>
 >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 >>
 >>
 >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:
 >>
 >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
 >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
 >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
 >>>  confirmation...
 >>
 >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
 >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
 >>
 >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
 >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
 >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
 >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
 >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
 >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
 >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
 >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
 >>for anything.
 >>
 >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
 >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
 >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
 >>
 >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
 >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
 >>
 >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
 >>differing ways, which can be useful.
 >>
 >>
 >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
 >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
 >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
 >>to see other people's profiles.
 >>
 >>--
 >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
 >>
 >>--
 >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Many here are prime examples.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:
>
> No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Doug 
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>
> Describing you, I'd venture
>
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
> >the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
> >Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
> >journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
> >them all.
> >
> >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> >>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
> >>
> >>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
> >>
> >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
> >>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
> >>junkie inner self.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
> >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
> >>>  confirmation...
> >>
> >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
> >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
> >>
> >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
> >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
> >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
> >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
> >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
> >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
> >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
> >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
> >>for anything.
> >>
> >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
> >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
> >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
> >>
> >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
> >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
> >>
> >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
> >>differing ways, which can be useful.
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
> >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
> >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
> >>to see other people's profiles.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subsc

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Exactly right. Which describes many here.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:13 PM, Frank Swarbrick 
 wrote:

No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

How about someone who knows everything about release foo but doesn't understand 
that it could change in release bar, and therefore never hits the updated 
manuals?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com]
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>   confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Mike Schwab]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:
>
> No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Doug 
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>
> Describing you, I'd venture
>
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
> >the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
> >Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
> >journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
> >them all.
> >
> >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> >>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
> >>
> >>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
> >>
> >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
> >>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
> >>junkie inner self.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
> >>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
> >>>   confirmation...
> >>
> >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
> >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
> >>
> >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
> >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
> >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
> >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
> >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
> >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
> >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
> >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
> >>for anything.
> >>
> >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
> >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
> >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
> >>
> >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
> >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
> >>
> >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
> >>differing ways, which can be useful.
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
> >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
> >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
> >>to see other people's profiles.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MA

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Frank Swarbrick]

No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>   confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I’m seldom right. Except with respect to challenger banks, mainframe not going 
bye bye, ING stock being big time terrible, spending 4 years learning investing 
from one of the smartest investment advisors in America, being a contestant on 
Who Wants to be a Millionaire, getting a 10k reward for helping the FBI solve 
an armored car heist, running 2 businesses one of which had dealings with the 
Mafia, and everything else I’ve mentioned here. Some of you are obviously 
jealous.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 2:14 PM, Doug  wrote:

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

My bet is you watch Fox.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 2:14 PM, Doug  wrote:

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.

Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem with 
embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:

  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
  confirmation...


I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I have a math major, studied Accounting in college before switching to Criminal 
Justice then later to computer science & math. Then as my number 1 hobby, 
learned the stock market from a guy who was on the cover of Barron’s magazine 
and invested rather wisely over the last 40 years. I made 1 mistake. The 
internet bubble. But, recovered it all back and then some.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 9:48 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:

"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Mirror


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 9:48 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:

"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.

Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
>with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>
>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>junkie inner self.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> wrote:
>
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  confirmation...
>
>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>
>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>for anything.
>
>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>
>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>
>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>differing ways, which can be useful.
>
>
>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>to see other people's profiles.
>
>--
>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Crayford originally said challenger banks and posted these 5. Startling, Yolt, 
Monzo, Moneze, N26. Of those 5 from his mention last year, almost all 5 have 
either closed, pulled out of some markets, had CEO quit, & none are thriving. 
Blowing his theory they will replace real banks.
When money is almost free, zero interest rates, there will always be startups 
that are not really needed or viable. And calling something that doesn’t 
provide what actual banks provide a bank isn’t anything more that an attempt to 
give it some street cred. Since last years Fed rate raises, a bunch of these 
startups have died. Even some actual banks ran into problems.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:38 AM, Doug  wrote:

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks 
which challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern 
financial technology and are more focused on the customer. This way they 
want to “challenge” the old banks. Challenger banks are also called neo 
banks.

So, just banks

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
>entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
>bank" is.  Can someone define it?
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
>individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
>Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
>had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. 
>Of course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
>congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
>simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Bill Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10
>
>ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
>bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

I'd love to know if they figure out new ways to lend or save money. I 
guess different vehicles may qualify (CD's, Money Market's, etc.) but 
loans are generally mortgages, personal, cars (which is a form of 
personal anyway) and commercial. I thought they figured out every way 
possible to give er...loan people money.
From what I see, it's all their substance. Make it easier, take deposits 

remotely, etc. which most every bank seems to have now.
Got me.  But I'd love to know. I mean, even Zelle and Venmo are just 
different payment mechanisms.


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 11:06:05
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Thanks.  By "modern financial technology" do you suppose they're talking about things like on-line 
banking apps?  Because pretty much everyone does that nowadays - so, as you said, "just banks".  On 
the other hand maybe "financial technology" means trying out new practices in borrowing and 
lending, in which case I'm a lot less sanguine.  I'll let them experiment with someone else's money at first.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...if you move, you'll end up like us: surrounded by hundreds of cardboard boxes 
packed by strangers ... Virtually every box will be labeled with some mutant spelling of 
the word "miscellaneous."  You will not be able to find ANYTHING.  For example, 
I'm pretty sure that, before we moved, we had a seven-month-old daughter.  -Dave Barry, 
Miami Herald 2000-11-05 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 10:38

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks which 
challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern financial technology 
and are more focused on the customer. This way they want to “challenge” the old 
banks. Challenger banks are also called neo banks.

So, just banks

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41


I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild entertainment value, 
but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger bank" is.  Can someone 
define it?


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I’ve got a plethora of Engineers in my family. They were all able to get 
employed pre-social media/LinkedIn.
I don’t think there are many idiots on here. There are some who embellish their 
skillsets and some AH’s who use the platform for their egos.
I’ve worked with a lot of brilliant people in 40+ years. None post here with 
any frequency. From an IMS expert Rodecker at EDS Packard Electric, to a DB2 
DBA by the name of Hadden at Revco, to a guy named Alan at my most recent 
employer. (You know who you are) Many in between. I’ve met quite a few at 
various conferences and classes. Quackenbush, Thomen, Roger Miller, Yevich, and 
others.

I’ve also worked with some awful people.
But, overall it’s been an interesting journey.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:00 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are 
basically 
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech) 
communities.  


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I 
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got 
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with 
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the 
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

Re fake resumes: I learned a long time ago not to trust any resume not given 
directly by the applicant. And if you're the applicant, don't assume that the 
agency didn't add skills that you don't have.

In the specific case of LinkedIn, that issue shouldn't exist, but there may be 
serious parsing errors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 9:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are basically
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech)
communities.


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

Thanks.  By "modern financial technology" do you suppose they're talking about 
things like on-line banking apps?  Because pretty much everyone does that 
nowadays - so, as you said, "just banks".  On the other hand maybe "financial 
technology" means trying out new practices in borrowing and lending, in which 
case I'm a lot less sanguine.  I'll let them experiment with someone else's 
money at first.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...if you move, you'll end up like us: surrounded by hundreds of cardboard 
boxes packed by strangers ... Virtually every box will be labeled with some 
mutant spelling of the word "miscellaneous."  You will not be able to find 
ANYTHING.  For example, I'm pretty sure that, before we moved, we had a 
seven-month-old daughter.  -Dave Barry, Miami Herald 2000-11-05 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 10:38

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks which 
challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern financial technology 
and are more focused on the customer. This way they want to “challenge” the old 
banks. Challenger banks are also called neo banks.

So, just banks

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41

>I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
>entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
>bank" is.  Can someone define it?

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks 
which challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern 
financial technology and are more focused on the customer. This way they 
want to “challenge” the old banks. Challenger banks are also called neo 
banks.


So, just banks

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild entertainment value, 
but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger bank" is.  Can someone 
define it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. Of 
course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10

ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
bank" is.  Can someone define it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. Of 
course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10

ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem with 
embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:

 Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
 That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
 confirmation...


I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are 
basically 
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech) 
communities.  


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I 
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got 
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with 
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the 
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Joe Monk]

"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> &g

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

So by you lying about people's beliefs and motives is a sign of highest regard? 
I suggest that you take your own advice.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
David Crayford 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford 
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as 
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex 
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions.
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are
not generating much interest or value.
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
>> I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment 
>> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 
>> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 
>> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>> you never have.
>>
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>> d...@bkassociates.net
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>> value]
>>
>>> Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>> made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. 
>>> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on 
>>> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in 
>>> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill 
>>> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because 
>>> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying 
>>> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most 
>>> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can 
>>> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>>
>>> You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by 
>>> how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent 
>>> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly 
>>> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of 
>>> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the 
>>> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail 
>>> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very lar

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. 
> That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for 
> confirmation...

I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in 
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of 
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a 
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?  

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in 
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so 
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding 
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles. 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. 
> That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for 
> confirmation...

I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in 
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of 
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a 
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?  

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in 
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so 
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding 
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles. 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. That’s just 
an ego trip and place where people like you go for confirmation. I’ve never 
needed it. Everything I’ve said here is 100% fact. You must be searching for me 
huh?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:17 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:
> ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in 
> the last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe 
> and replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the 
> bushel, isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down 
> soon after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
> assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
> touted?

You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.


>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
>
> On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>> stuff on Micro Focus.
> ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
> meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
> ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
> x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
> moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.
>
>
>> best regards,
>>
>> René.
>>
>>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Why is ING stock down to $10 a share from $22 two decades ago. Size doesn’t 
matter, profits do. You’re as financially savvy as you are IT savvy.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:17 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:
> ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in 
> the last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe 
> and replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the 
> bushel, isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down 
> soon after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
> assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
> touted?

You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.


>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
>
> On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>> stuff on Micro Focus.
> ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
> meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
> ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
> x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
> moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.
>
>
>> best regards,
>>
>> René.
>>
>>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

LOLOLOLOL, there are thousands of Systems Programmers and other IT 
professionals in the world. About a dozen dominate this forum. I don’t have the 
free time or the ego necessary to post here hundreds of times a week. I don’t 
need the confirmation. My experience is more varied and longer than yours by 
nearly 15 years. If your worth is determined by the number of postings here, 
you’re a sad loser.
ING is the 36th largest financial institution in the world. That’s 
unimpressive. And as an investment, has been terrible. Losing half its stock 
value. Explains the cost cutting management had to try to save costs by 
eliminating the mainframe. And the millions down the drain on their challenger 
bank.
Micro Focus is also a money loser for years. Stock was under $2/share until 
OpenText bought them last year for $6, right before IBM sued them for allegedly 
trying to reverse engineer IBM software.

Who is Jerzy?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:05 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford 
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as 
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex 
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but 
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These 
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive 
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle 
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions. 
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please 
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are 
not generating much interest or value.
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
>> I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment 
>> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 
>> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 
>> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>> you never have.
>>
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>> d...@bkassociates.net
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>> value]
>>
>>> Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>> made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. 
>>> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on 
>>> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in 
>>> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill 
>>> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because 
>>> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying 
>>> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most 
>>> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can 
>>> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>>
>>> You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by 
>>> how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent 
>>> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly 
>>> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of 
>>> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. O

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:

ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in the 
last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe and 
replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the bushel, 
isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down soon 
after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
touted?


You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.



best regards,

René.


On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in the 
last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe and 
replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the bushel, 
isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down soon 
after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
touted? 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
> stuff on Micro Focus.

ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a 
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for 
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on 
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers 
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.


>
> best regards,
>
> René.
>
>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>
> --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:

I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford wrong 
regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as their stock 
price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex reasons or are you 
making that up too?

Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but 
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These 
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive 
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle 
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions. 
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please 
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are 
not generating much interest or value.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:

For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
profitable.

Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


   On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

   ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.


ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a 
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for 
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on 
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers 
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.





best regards,

René.


On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford wrong 
regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as their stock 
price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex reasons or are you 
making that up too?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:

For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking. 
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some 
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on 
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I 
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite 
profitable.

Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
>Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
>earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
>Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>you never have.
>
>
>Doug Fuerst
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon 
>>bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment 
>>banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our 
>>financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 
>>2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their 
>>focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off 
>>consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are 
>>trying to get into investment banking where significant money can be made. 
>>Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>
>>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
>>quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because 
>>of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until 
>>UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability 
>>either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in 
>>the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit 
>>generating machine is not paying attention.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>>Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>>Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>>Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>>stuff on Micro Focus.
>>
>>best regards,
>>
>>René.
>>
>>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>><0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking. 
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some 
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on 
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I 
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite 
profitable.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

  ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

And their stock performance has been dismal for decades.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly, 
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made 
>in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank 
>saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. 
>Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. 
>It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the 
>meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their focus on retail 
>banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers 
>because there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are trying to get 
>into investment banking where significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman 
>Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>
>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
>quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
>their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
>saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
>Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
>Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
>machine is not paying attention.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
> wrote:
>
>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>stuff on Micro Focus.
>
>best regards,
>
>René.
>
>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>><0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
>>
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly, 
you never have.



Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


 On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made 
in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank 
saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. 
Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. 
It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the 
meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their focus on retail 
banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because 
there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into 
investment banking where significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or 
Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Doug]

What gave you the idea that retail banking is a low profit business? It 
really does not have to be depending on how it is run. ANYTHING can be 
low profit, even IBM, when it is run badly.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 18:13:55
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I used to work at Mellon bank in Pittsburgh. Mellon shut down their retail 
banking division to concentrate on the investment industry. Over 20 years ago. 
Retail banking is a low profit business. Challenger banking is a no profit 
business. Which is why they are failing.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


 On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

More on ING.
Why is ING bank closed?Dutch banking giant ING is leaving the Philippine retail 
banking market before the end of 2022. ING cited the “uncertain global macro 
situation in the last few years” as the primary reason that led to it decision 
to pull back from expanding activities in other countries, the Philippines 
included.
























Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I used to work at Mellon bank in Pittsburgh. Mellon shut down their retail 
banking division to concentrate on the investment industry. Over 20 years ago. 
Retail banking is a low profit business. Challenger banking is a no profit 
business. Which is why they are failing.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

The know it all took a few days for this. ING is partially a bank but they 
still shut down their challenger “quasi bank” YOLT. And the other challenger 
“banks” are struggling. Funny how that happens when the cost of money 
increases. And investors want profits and returns for their investments. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. 
>> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
>> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
>> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
>> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
>> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[René Jansen]

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

Here’s some comments from the ING CEO. From 2016.

Speaking to The Register, he confirmed the finance giant still ran mainframes: 
“You won’t find a bank without a mainframe, unless recently established.”

But, he continued, “We are extremely aggressively moving away from them.”

This was not because “a mainframe in itself is a bad technology. It’s maybe one 
of the most virtualised environments ever invented, even before the whole 
hypervisor was there.”

"Intrinsically," he said, "there’s two problems. [Firstly] They’re not 
real-time in their connectivity."

***

Utter BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. 
>> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
>> 

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

ING isn’t a bank either. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
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>> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
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>> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
>> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
>> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. 
>> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
>> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
>> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
>> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
>> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>> 
>> 
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>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bill Johnson]

I remember this.
David Crayford said:
”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, Moneze, 
N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are gaining 
millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”




My response

Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.




How’s those challenger banks doing?
YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
(and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business model.
So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that working 
out?
Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
market.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
> +1
> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/

Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!

"The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"

Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.


>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to 
> COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>
> Programmers like me.
>
> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>
> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
> profitably.
>
> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>
> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>
> 
>
>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>
> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
> brain.
>
> --
>
> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If 
> the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

Ok, I'll bite:  What's the difference between the ANY and OTHER conditions?

Oh, wait, cool!  Does the ANY condition execute even any of the above 
conditions evaluate as true?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, 
to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one 
day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to 
worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, 
only in a nightmare.  All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other 
to one of these destinations.  -C S Lewis, quoted in "In His Image" by Dr Paul 
Brand and Phillip Yancey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Wayne Bickerdike
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 23:40

I also like CA-IDEAL. A little bit PL/I like with a nice SELECT statement:

  SELECT TRANS_CODE
WHEN 'A'
  DO ADD_RECORD_PROC
WHEN 'D'
  DO DEL_RECORD_PROC
WHEN 'P'
  DO PURCHASE_PROC
WHEN 'R'
  DO RECEIPT_PROC
WHEN ANY
  DO LOG_TRANS
WHEN OTHER
  DO INVALID_CODE
ENDSEL

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Wayne Bickerdike]

I also like CA-IDEAL. A little bit PL/I like with a nice SELECT statement:

Example:

SELECT TRANS_CODE

WHEN 'A'

DO ADD_RECORD_PROC

WHEN 'D'

DO DEL_RECORD_PROC

WHEN 'P'

 DO PURCHASE_PROC

WHEN 'R'

DO RECEIPT_PROC

WHEN ANY

DO LOG_TRANS

WHEN OTHER

DO INVALID_CODE

ENDSEL




On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 11:23 AM Jeremy Nicoll <
jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 14:01, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
> > Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> > the danglig ELSE!
>
> An ALGOL variant (S-ALGOL) that I used at university differentiated
> between, IIRC,
>
>  IF ... THEN ... ELSE
>
> and
>
> IF ... DO
>
> which meant that as soon as the compiler saw THEN or DO it
> knew whether or not there should be an ELSE later on.  It was
> such a simple idea but it worked well for both programmers
> & the compiler.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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-- 
Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 14:01, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

> Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> the danglig ELSE!

An ALGOL variant (S-ALGOL) that I used at university differentiated
between, IIRC, 

 IF ... THEN ... ELSE

and 

IF ... DO

which meant that as soon as the compiler saw THEN or DO it 
knew whether or not there should be an ELSE later on.  It was
such a simple idea but it worked well for both programmers
& the compiler.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 05:24, David Crayford wrote:

> The 
> interviewer held out both hands, one with an open palm the other with a 
> clenched fist and asked me "what hand is the ball bearing in"?.

And did they want the "obvious" answer - the clenched fist, or did they 
want one of the more considered alternatives, eg

- does either hand actually contain a ball bearing?

- Can't tell.  If it exists, how big is the bearing?

  (if very small it could easily be held between
  two fingers of the open palm)

-- 
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 29/3/23 22:16, Robert Prins wrote:

  On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 at 11:20, Seymour J Metz  wrote:


"You can write FORTRAN in any language."

Too be fair, much of what I take for granted in PL/I control structures
was not in the original version, and IBM rejected the original SHARE
requirement for a CASE statement.


But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.


No argument there but it still only supports scalars. It's pretty dusty 
when compared to structural pattern matching such as Pythons match [1] 
or Kotlins when expression or similar in any modern programming language.


[1] https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/
[2] https://kotlinlang.org/docs/control-flow.html#when-expression



Robert


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Frank Swarbrick]

Since COBOL 1985 (implemented with an early release of VS COBOL II) you can 
uses nested programs, which (can) have their own "local variables".

That being said, it's quite a paradigm shift for some COBOL programmers, and 
I've had pushback from them each time I've used it.  It is also just as verbose 
as any other COBOL program, which causes source code bloat if used extensively. 
 For a small procedure (nested program) there is sometimes more COBOL 
boilerplate (divisions and sections) outside of the procedure division than 
there is code inside the procedure division.

I'm not discouraging their use, nor am I necessarily encouraging it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables with
strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines COBOL
program completely unreadable.

I see such programs almost every day.

The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs maintainable is
the lack of procedures and local variables, IMO.
Because all variables are global, it is almost impossible to structure
your program into many small independent and
separate blocks, which IMO is crucial when it comes to fighting
complexity. You need much discipline and talent,
inspired by other programming languages (in my case PL/1 - Pascal - C -
Assembler, to name a few), if you want to produce
good quality software in a shop who is COBOL only :-(

I'm doing this for more than 3 years now ... new COBOL software every
day. COBOL is not dead and will not be
for the next 10 to 20 years, at least.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 28.03.2023 um 17:05 schrieb David Spiegel:
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating of large,
> complex commercial programs..."
> Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software vendor's
> Payroll package.
> The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks.
> When compiled, the listing was so big that it was near impossible to
> follow.
> Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help too much.
> Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years ago)
> generated COBOL listing?
> My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy COBOL.
> I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early '80s).
> These 3 can be readable if there are departmental standards in place.
>
> Caveat: I still program Rexx and given the chance would (and have)
> program(med) PL/I -- my favourite compiled language.
> (Edsger W. Dijkstra be damned. (If he had to work in a commercial (aka
> "real") environment (instead of his ivory tower), his opinion might've
> been tempered a bit.) )
>
> Regards,
> David
>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, I meant the latter, not the former. Sorry for the dyslexia.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 12:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I may have misunderstood you, Shmuel, but I think you must have meant "REXX
has only the latter".  The REXX select statement looks like this:

  select
when boolexpr1 then stm
when boolexpr2 then stm
otherwise stm; end

VBA, on the other hand, has only the former:

  Select Case MyVar
Case "T": stm
Case "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

You can simulate the latter (more general) form in VBA easily enough:

  Select Case True
Case boolexpr1: stm
Case MyVar = "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have an efficient feeding technique, and within a few minutes, every
last spoonful of that glop is somewhere in Sophie's hair.  I aim for her
mouth, but she moves too fast.  Sophie will try to eat virtually any random
thing she finds on the floor, including a dead cockroach, but she draws the
line at baby food.  -Dave Barry, 2000-09-17 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:38

SELECT in PL/I has two forms: one provides a variable matched against the
various WHEN clauses and one in which each WHEN has a boolean (well, BIT(1))
expression. REXX has only the former, whichis equivalent to IF/ELSEIF/ELSE.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

I may have misunderstood you, Shmuel, but I think you must have meant "REXX
has only the latter".  The REXX select statement looks like this:

  select
when boolexpr1 then stm
when boolexpr2 then stm
otherwise stm; end

VBA, on the other hand, has only the former:

  Select Case MyVar
Case "T": stm
Case "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

You can simulate the latter (more general) form in VBA easily enough:

  Select Case True
Case boolexpr1: stm
Case MyVar = "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have an efficient feeding technique, and within a few minutes, every
last spoonful of that glop is somewhere in Sophie's hair.  I aim for her
mouth, but she moves too fast.  Sophie will try to eat virtually any random
thing she finds on the floor, including a dead cockroach, but she draws the
line at baby food.  -Dave Barry, 2000-09-17 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:38

SELECT in PL/I has two forms: one provides a variable matched against the
various WHEN clauses and one in which each WHEN has a boolean (well, BIT(1))
expression. REXX has only the former, whichis equivalent to IF/ELSEIF/ELSE.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

> Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Or he's using a prettyprinter that can't handle it well.

> Or, you could use ELSEIF and just not indent.

PL/I has no such statement; with SELECT there's no further need for it.

> I wish ITERATE I and LEAVE I allowed I to be an EXPOSEd nonlocal variable.

Controlling the loop from a subroutine outside the loop sounds extremely error 
prone.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:18 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>I suppose so, but I always use SELECT, never ELSEIF.  I think it's because 
>with ELSEIF I feel compelled to indent each clause as if it were an "ELSE IF",
>
Sounds like a personal problem to me.

>and I abominate those long increasingly indented constructions:
>
>  if expr1 then stm1
>  else if expr2 then stm2
>else if expr3 then do
>blah blah blah; end
>  else if expr4 then stm4
>else if expr5 then stm5
>
>SELECT allows me to avoid that.
>
Or, you could use ELSEIF and just not indent.

I've seen some horribly hyperindented REXX code from IBM on CMS.  Like:
IF ...
  THEN
DO
  yada
  yada
END

I code:
IF ... THEN
THEN on the same line.  Its only purpose is to terminate a boolean expression.

>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:
>
Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

I wish ITERATE I and LEAVE I allowed I to be an EXPOSEd nonlocal variable.

--
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

It's optional in PL/I as well unless you have a name on the END..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

As NetRexx does; but the label is optional.

> On 29 Mar 2023, at 17:18, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
>> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
>> variable.
>> Does PL/I do likewise?
>
> No, PL/I does it better; a name on the end must match the label on the 
> opening statement.You can have multiple DO loops in the same scope, but PL/I 
> requires labels to be unique.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:
>
>> "Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
>> the danglig ELSE!"
>>
>> Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
>>
> Past tense?  No longer?
>
>> line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
>> (Cobol '85).
>>
> I understand that Python goes even further: it enforces the indention.
>
> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
> variable.
> Does PL/I do likewise?  At times I use an otiose control variable merely so I
> can mark the END.
>
> And it's a shame that JCL doesn't require that the name fields of ELSE and 
> ENDIF
> match that of the IF.
>
> --
> gil
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

Structured Programming with go to Statements, Donald E.  Knuth, Computing 
Surveys, Volume 6, No.  4, Deecember 1974

Reprinted in Classics of Software Engineering.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I'm going to disagree only in a tiny and technical way:  ITERATE forces more 
discipline, but what that means is not that GOTO is less disciplined but that 
GOTO ~allows~ less discipline.  Back in my COBOL days I maintained that not all 
GOTOs are evil; these three are just fine:

  GOTO TOP-OF-LOOP (REXX's ITERATE)
  GOTO EXIT-PARAGRAPH
  GOTO EXIT-PROGRAM

Many programming languages now synthesize these in various structured 
statements without actually using the word "goto".  But if you don't have them 
(as with ITERATE in VBA) a GoTo can do the same without sacrificing clarity.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq.  Why don't we just 
give them ours?  It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for 
over 200 years and we're not using it any more.  -from pre-2005 debate */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:19

Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

--- On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

Yes, and the also added ITERATE and LEAVE.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Robert Prins [robert.ah.pr...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 10:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

 On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 at 11:20, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> "You can write FORTRAN in any language."
>
> Too be fair, much of what I take for granted in PL/I control structures
> was not in the original version, and IBM rejected the original SHARE
> requirement for a CASE statement.
>

But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.

Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprino.neocities.org%2Findex.html=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6475f62846941fa184708db304ec53f%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638156887535078375%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C=FkSh0tCIBFhrfFL8xaSCewhY8vtpUuef%2BmeN%2FMTEDaw%3D=0>
Some REXX code for use on z/OS
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprino.neocities.org%2FzOS%2FzOS-Tools.html=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Ca6475f62846941fa184708db304ec53f%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638156887535078375%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C=frc0T7fCgpvnY4zcpJ56hIlt6rdkhKapyQOjiRkz2Cw%3D=0>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

SELECT in PL/I has two forms: one provides a variable matched against the 
various WHEN clauses and one in which each WHEN has a boolean (well, BIT(1)) 
expression. REXX has only the former, whichis equivalent to IF/ELSEIF/ELSE.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:16:56 +, Robert Prins wrote:

>> w..., and IBM rejected the original SHARE
>> requirement for a CASE statement.
>
>But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
>crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.
>
Pascal CASE may have a performance advantage if it can be
implemented with an indexed branch table.  But how much does
it matter?

Isn't SELECT (I know Rexx, not PL/I) just an ELSEIF chain?

Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
the danglig ELSE!

--
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

I'm going to disagree only in a tiny and technical way:  ITERATE forces more 
discipline, but what that means is not that GOTO is less disciplined but that 
GOTO ~allows~ less discipline.  Back in my COBOL days I maintained that not all 
GOTOs are evil; these three are just fine:

  GOTO TOP-OF-LOOP (REXX's ITERATE)
  GOTO EXIT-PARAGRAPH
  GOTO EXIT-PROGRAM

Many programming languages now synthesize these in various structured 
statements without actually using the word "goto".  But if you don't have them 
(as with ITERATE in VBA) a GoTo can do the same without sacrificing clarity.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq.  Why don't we just 
give them ours?  It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for 
over 200 years and we're not using it any more.  -from pre-2005 debate */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:19

Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

--- On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[René Jansen]

As NetRexx does; but the label is optional.

> On 29 Mar 2023, at 17:18, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
>> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
>> variable.
>> Does PL/I do likewise? 
> 
> No, PL/I does it better; a name on the end must match the label on the 
> opening statement.You can have multiple DO loops in the same scope, but PL/I 
> requires labels to be unique.
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
> 
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:
> 
>> "Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
>> the danglig ELSE!"
>> 
>> Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
>> 
> Past tense?  No longer?
> 
>> line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
>> (Cobol '85).
>> 
> I understand that Python goes even further: it enforces the indention.
> 
> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
> variable.
> Does PL/I do likewise?  At times I use an otiose control variable merely so I
> can mark the END.
> 
> And it's a shame that JCL doesn't require that the name fields of ELSE and 
> ENDIF
> match that of the IF.
> 
> --
> gil
> 
> --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
> variable.
> Does PL/I do likewise? 

No, PL/I does it better; a name on the end must match the label on the opening 
statement.You can have multiple DO loops in the same scope, but PL/I requires 
labels to be unique.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:

>"Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
>the danglig ELSE!"
>
>Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
>
Past tense?  No longer?

>line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
>(Cobol '85).
>
I understand that Python goes even further: it enforces the indention.

It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
variable.
Does PL/I do likewise?  At times I use an otiose control variable merely so I
can mark the END.

And it's a shame that JCL doesn't require that the name fields of ELSE and ENDIF
match that of the IF.

--
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>I suppose so, but I always use SELECT, never ELSEIF.  I think it's because 
>with ELSEIF I feel compelled to indent each clause as if it were an "ELSE IF", 
>
Sounds like a personal problem to me.

>and I abominate those long increasingly indented constructions:
>
>  if expr1 then stm1
>  else if expr2 then stm2
>else if expr3 then do
>blah blah blah; end
>  else if expr4 then stm4
>else if expr5 then stm5
>
>SELECT allows me to avoid that.
>
Or, you could use ELSEIF and just not indent.

I've seen some horribly hyperindented REXX code from IBM on CMS.  Like:
IF ...
  THEN
DO
  yada
  yada
END

I code:
IF ... THEN
THEN on the same line.  Its only purpose is to terminate a boolean expression.

>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:
>
Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

I wish ITERATE I and LEAVE I allowed I to be an EXPOSEd nonlocal variable.

-- 
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Steve Thompson]

I saw top down and bottom up structured code ideas. And somewhere 
in there was Yourdon(?) structured "method". Meanwhile I was 
mostly doing ALC in those days, unless I was needed to work on 
applications under CICS, then it was COBOL.


Problem was, for CICS, straight line code was best and if done 
right ran faster. Of course this was all pre-COBOL-II.


Steve Thompson

On 3/29/2023 12:24 AM, David Crayford wrote:

On 28/3/23 13:56, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson 
structured

programming.


I had a few brief years as an applications programmer back in 
the early 90s. I came from operations so I had to take the IBM 
aptitude test. The interviewer held out both hands, one with an 
open palm the other with a clenched fist and asked me "what 
hand is the ball bearing in"?. Anyway, they shipped us all off 
for a months training in rural Berkshire just outside London 
for training. Very nice it was too, loads of nice quaint pubs. 
We learned Jackson Structured Programming methodology before we 
wrote any code. We drew org chart diagrams to design programs. 
Each box had a different character in the top right such as a 
asterix or a circle to determine iteration or selection. It was 
decent for designing COBOL programs. I think it only ever took 
of in the UK, maybe because Jackson was a Brit.




MJ quotes Dijkstra a lot, however, I didn't realise that he
was a PL/I hater. That was the first language I learned and 
still think it

was a masterpiece.


The PL/I specification was ahead of its time. It was too 
difficult to write a decent compiler so the guys at bell 
invented C. PL/I is arguable a better language then C but it's 
a niche language. IIRC, roughly 90% of mainframe applications 
are written in COBOL. I only worked with PL/I briefly but it 
was a breath of fresh air after COBOL. It had generic functions 
and lots of really nice features such as built-in multi-tasking.




I encountered COBOL after I left IBM and it happened to
be Microfocus COBOL, a very odd variant designed for Z80/CPM 
based
microcomputers. It barely did the job since it only supported 
a rudimentary
ISAM file system. A couple of years later as our software 
house was going
broke, I went for an interview for a DOS/VSE COBOL role. The 
customer was
doubtful that my MF COBOL would translate to a mainframe role. 
It didn't
prove to be a problem but oh how I wished it had been a PL/I 
shop.


Inverted programs in COBOL? Blech..

On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:27 PM Tony Harminc 
 wrote:


On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 at 23:22, David Crayford 
 wrote:

I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra  quote:

  “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”

Dijkstra wasn't hot on a lot of languages:

"If Fortran has been called an infantile disorder, PL/I must be
classified as a fatal disease."
-Edsger Dijkstra in Introduction to the Art of Computer 
Programming


Which prompted, or at least provided a juicy quote for, Ric 
Holt's
1972 paper "Teaching the Fatal Disease (or) Introductory 
Computer

Programming Using PL/I".

I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. 
C, in
particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not 
useful.
Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for 
disabusing me of that.


Tony H.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

My degree is in Accounting, but I discovered computer programming during the
course of my studies and was thoroughly hooked; I went straight into
applications development after graduation.  More than one prospective
employer looked at me with stars in their eyes saying "Oh, at last, a
programmer to whom we don't have to explain double-entry bookkeeping!".

(And they didn't.  That was decades ago, but double-entry still makes sense
to me and I have ambitions of writing a double-entry app in Access for my
own use.)

Ironically, though, it never happened that I was assigned to any accounting
areas.  In the end I always ended up working for Marketing or some such.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Talking to liberals is much more fun now that we have Lexis-Nexis.  -Ann
Coulter, 2005-05-11 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
billogden
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 10:46

Perhaps it is only my experience, but (again, long ago) I found that if the
COBOL programmers were also experienced in the application area (such as
payroll, billing, inventory, etc) they were much more likely to use
meaningful variable names, minor but meaningful paragraph comments, etc.

I realize this mixture of programming and actual application expertise is
becoming less common, unfortunately. 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[billogden]

>The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks. 
>When compiled, the listing was so big that it was near impossible to
follow.
>Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help too much.
>Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years ago) 
>generated COBOL listing?
>My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy COBOL.
>I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early '80s). 
>These 3 can be readable if there are departmental standards in place.
**
I agree that unreadable code can be written in any language. (Long, long ago
I was a FORTRAN programmer. (This was on IBM 70xx machines.) The nature of
some applications made meaningful variable names difficult.) IMO, wild use
of copybooks was often a problem.

Perhaps it is only my experience, but (again, long ago) I found that if the
COBOL programmers were also experienced in the application area (such as
payroll, billing, inventory, etc) they were much more likely to use
meaningful variable names, minor but meaningful paragraph comments, etc.

I realize this mixture of programming and actual application expertise is
becoming less common, unfortunately. 

Bill Ogden

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

Nah, there are no more COBOL programmers; their brains all rotted.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* America is at that awkward stage.  It's too late to work within the system, 
but too early to shoot the bastards.  -Claire Wolfe, _101 Things to Do 'Til the 
Revolution_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 09:30
>
Past tense?  No longer?

--- On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:
>Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it 
>helps

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

I suppose so, but I always use SELECT, never ELSEIF.  I think it's because with 
ELSEIF I feel compelled to indent each clause as if it were an "ELSE IF", and I 
abominate those long increasingly indented constructions:

  if expr1 then stm1
  else if expr2 then stm2
else if expr3 then do
blah blah blah; end
  else if expr4 then stm4
else if expr5 then stm5

SELECT allows me to avoid that.

I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:

  do queued()
parse pull rid data
if abbrev(rid,'*') then iterate
if data='' then iterate
if datatype(data)<>'NUM' then iterate
/* NOW I can do what I wanted. */
end

I'm so enamored with it that I simulate it in VBA:

For jr = 1 To LastRow(ows)
  If Left(ocs(jr, 1).Value,1) = "*" Then GoTo IterateRow
  If ocs(jr,2).Value = "" Then GoTo IterateRow
  If Not IsNumeric(ocs(jr,2).Value) Then GoTo IterateRow
  ' NOW I can do what I wanted.
  IterateRow:
  Next jr

(For VBA programmers:  I wouldn’t actually write it this way.  Testing reveals 
that VBA takes about ten times as long to look up object.property as to 
retrieve a scalar variable.  So if I'm using ocs(jr, 2).Value more than once, 
I'd always put it in a variable first and then use the variable.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Extraordinary afflictions are not always the punishment of extraordinary 
sins, but sometimes the trial of extraordinary graces.  Sanctified afflictions 
are spiritual promotions.  -Matthew Henry (1662-1714) */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 09:01

Isn't SELECT (I know Rexx, not PL/I) just an ELSEIF chain?

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:

>"Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
>the danglig ELSE!"
>
>Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
>
Past tense?  No longer?

>line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
>(Cobol '85).
>
I understand that Python goes even further: it enforces the indention.

It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
variable.
Does PL/I do likewise?  At times I use an otiose control variable merely so I
can mark the END.

And it's a shame that JCL doesn't require that the name fields of ELSE and ENDIF
match that of the IF.

-- 
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Jay Maynard]

And this is the reason I think complaints about Python's syntactic
indentation miss the point: it's simply the language using what you should
be doing anyway.

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:13 AM Joe Monk  wrote:

> "Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> the danglig ELSE!"
>
> Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
> line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
> (Cobol '85).
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:01 AM Paul Gilmartin <
> 042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:16:56 +, Robert Prins wrote:
> >
> > >> w..., and IBM rejected the original SHARE
> > >> requirement for a CASE statement.
> > >
> > >But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats
> the
> > >crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.
> > >
> > Pascal CASE may have a performance advantage if it can be
> > implemented with an indexed branch table.  But how much does
> > it matter?
> >
> > Isn't SELECT (I know Rexx, not PL/I) just an ELSEIF chain?
> >
> > Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> > the danglig ELSE!
> >
> > --
> > gil
> >
> > --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Joe Monk]

"Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
the danglig ELSE!"

Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
(Cobol '85).

Joe

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:01 AM Paul Gilmartin <
042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:16:56 +, Robert Prins wrote:
>
> >> w..., and IBM rejected the original SHARE
> >> requirement for a CASE statement.
> >
> >But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
> >crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.
> >
> Pascal CASE may have a performance advantage if it can be
> implemented with an indexed branch table.  But how much does
> it matter?
>
> Isn't SELECT (I know Rexx, not PL/I) just an ELSEIF chain?
>
> Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> the danglig ELSE!
>
> --
> gil
>
> --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 14:16:56 +, Robert Prins wrote:

>> w..., and IBM rejected the original SHARE
>> requirement for a CASE statement.
>
>But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
>crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.
> 
Pascal CASE may have a performance advantage if it can be
implemented with an indexed branch table.  But how much does
it matter?

Isn't SELECT (I know Rexx, not PL/I) just an ELSEIF chain?

Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
the danglig ELSE!

-- 
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Robert Prins]

 On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 at 11:20, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> "You can write FORTRAN in any language."
>
> Too be fair, much of what I take for granted in PL/I control structures
> was not in the original version, and IBM rejected the original SHARE
> requirement for a CASE statement.
>

But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.

Robert
-- 
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather 
Some REXX code for use on z/OS


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

"You can write FORTRAN in any language."

Too be fair, much of what I take for granted in PL/I control structures was not 
in the original version, and IBM rejected the original SHARE requirement for a 
CASE statement.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 3:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

Regarding Michael Jackson structured programming.

My first role at ICI was applications programmer. My Senior programmer gave
me three program specs that were training specs. The specs came with
flowcharts. I duly programmed them in PL/I replete with IF THEN GOTO ELSE
GOTO statements. Not a trace of a DO WHILE.

Another senior programmer chuckled when he saw my code. He produced a
Jackson structure for each of the programs. Sequence, Iteration and Select.
That was when the penny dropped and data driven design made sense.

The same programmer built a design language called CODEL (Component
Definition Language). Program specs were developed from the program
structure diagram. It used an Assembler like syntax with macros for SEQ,
SEL and ITER. The beauty of the utility was that it printed the program
structure on a 1403 line printer and built assembler code. It was great
because if the structure stood up to review, you had a working prototype
without writing a line of code.

I've always been in awe of people who can conceptualise and implement such
great tools. He also had an IQ well over 160 and eschewed MENSA..

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 4:58 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 28/3/23 13:26, Tony Harminc wrote:
> >> I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
> >> particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.
> > Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for disabusing me of
> that.
> Ha! I don't develop emotional attachments to programming languages,
> except for Lua which I find exceptionally elegant. Its power and
> conciseness are truly impressive. I'm still astonished how such a tiny
> language can be so powerful with such economy. Nonetheless, I tend to
> follow the crowd and use Python as my primary scripting language, even
> though I have a preference for Lua. While Kotlin appealed to me for our
> latest project, we ultimately opted for Java due to its abundant talent
> pool, which eliminated the need for additional training of new hires.
>
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Wayne Bickerdike]

Regarding Michael Jackson structured programming.

My first role at ICI was applications programmer. My Senior programmer gave
me three program specs that were training specs. The specs came with
flowcharts. I duly programmed them in PL/I replete with IF THEN GOTO ELSE
GOTO statements. Not a trace of a DO WHILE.

Another senior programmer chuckled when he saw my code. He produced a
Jackson structure for each of the programs. Sequence, Iteration and Select.
That was when the penny dropped and data driven design made sense.

The same programmer built a design language called CODEL (Component
Definition Language). Program specs were developed from the program
structure diagram. It used an Assembler like syntax with macros for SEQ,
SEL and ITER. The beauty of the utility was that it printed the program
structure on a 1403 line printer and built assembler code. It was great
because if the structure stood up to review, you had a working prototype
without writing a line of code.

I've always been in awe of people who can conceptualise and implement such
great tools. He also had an IQ well over 160 and eschewed MENSA..

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 4:58 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 28/3/23 13:26, Tony Harminc wrote:
> >> I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
> >> particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.
> > Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for disabusing me of
> that.
> Ha! I don't develop emotional attachments to programming languages,
> except for Lua which I find exceptionally elegant. Its power and
> conciseness are truly impressive. I'm still astonished how such a tiny
> language can be so powerful with such economy. Nonetheless, I tend to
> follow the crowd and use Python as my primary scripting language, even
> though I have a preference for Lua. While Kotlin appealed to me for our
> latest project, we ultimately opted for Java due to its abundant talent
> pool, which eliminated the need for additional training of new hires.
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 28/3/23 13:26, Tony Harminc wrote:

I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.

Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for disabusing me of that.
Ha! I don't develop emotional attachments to programming languages, 
except for Lua which I find exceptionally elegant. Its power and 
conciseness are truly impressive. I'm still astonished how such a tiny 
language can be so powerful with such economy. Nonetheless, I tend to 
follow the crowd and use Python as my primary scripting language, even 
though I have a preference for Lua. While Kotlin appealed to me for our 
latest project, we ultimately opted for Java due to its abundant talent 
pool, which eliminated the need for additional training of new hires.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Crayford]

On 28/3/23 13:56, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson structured
programming.


I had a few brief years as an applications programmer back in the early 
90s. I came from operations so I had to take the IBM aptitude test. The 
interviewer held out both hands, one with an open palm the other with a 
clenched fist and asked me "what hand is the ball bearing in"?. Anyway, 
they shipped us all off for a months training in rural Berkshire just 
outside London for training. Very nice it was too, loads of nice quaint 
pubs. We learned Jackson Structured Programming methodology before we 
wrote any code. We drew org chart diagrams to design programs. Each box 
had a different character in the top right such as a asterix or a circle 
to determine iteration or selection. It was decent for designing COBOL 
programs. I think it only ever took of in the UK, maybe because Jackson 
was a Brit.




MJ quotes Dijkstra a lot, however, I didn't realise that he
was a PL/I hater. That was the first language I learned and still think it
was a masterpiece.


The PL/I specification was ahead of its time. It was too difficult to 
write a decent compiler so the guys at bell invented C. PL/I is arguable 
a better language then C but it's a niche language. IIRC, roughly 90% of 
mainframe applications are written in COBOL. I only worked with PL/I 
briefly but it was a breath of fresh air after COBOL. It had generic 
functions and lots of really nice features such as built-in multi-tasking.




I encountered COBOL after I left IBM and it happened to
be Microfocus COBOL, a very odd variant designed for Z80/CPM based
microcomputers. It barely did the job since it only supported a rudimentary
ISAM file system. A couple of years later as our software house was going
broke, I went for an interview for a DOS/VSE COBOL role. The customer was
doubtful that my MF COBOL would translate to a mainframe role. It didn't
prove to be a problem but oh how I wished it had been a PL/I shop.

Inverted programs in COBOL? Blech..

On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:27 PM Tony Harminc  wrote:


On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 at 23:22, David Crayford  wrote:

I think it was flippant Edsger W. Dijkstra  quote:

  “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should,
therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.”

Dijkstra wasn't hot on a lot of languages:

"If Fortran has been called an infantile disorder, PL/I must be
classified as a fatal disease."
-Edsger Dijkstra in Introduction to the Art of Computer Programming

Which prompted, or at least provided a juicy quote for, Ric Holt's
1972 paper "Teaching the Fatal Disease (or) Introductory Computer
Programming Using PL/I".


I use programming languages that I don't like all the time. C, in
particular, I dislike a lot. That doesn't mean they're not useful.

Whew! And I thought you were a C fanatic. Thanks for disabusing me of that.

Tony H.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

It certainly does!  Lots of applications developers hate that, but it always 
seemed to me that it’s a necessary part of making usable code.  If my users 
never talked to me ("could you add a command arg that sorts the output this way 
instead of that?"), I'd suspect - actually I'd be sure - that they never 
actually use what I wrote for them.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Part of what makes us human are the kinks. They’re the mutations, the 
outliers, the flaws that create art or the new invention.  [So in designing AI 
solutions] one of the challenges is where and when is it appropriate for us to 
have things work exactly the way they’re supposed to, without surprises.  
-Barak Obama in a conversation about artificial intelligence, August 2016 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 18:21

Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going 
to do that -- swap code between students.

The other thing I was going to do in the same vein was give a programming 
assignment -- perhaps with a fairly tight deadline -- and halfway through say 
"oh, wait, the specs have changed" and hand them a somewhat different variant 
of the problem. (I thought that modeled real life programming!) 

--- On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:17:05 -0400, Steve Thompson  wrote:
>In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible to 
>maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the students that I 
>would be picking a programming lesson, where once it was completed, 
>everyone would have to swap card decks and then have to add the next 
>lesson's function to it.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Schmitt, Michael]

The customer says, “Build me a house”.

So we build them a house.

Then after it is finished, they say, “that I can drive to the lake”.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Thompson 
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 5:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
I just wasn't that devious, but yeah, happens in real shops more
than one cares to admit.

Steve Thompson

On 3/28/2023 6:20 PM, Charles Mills wrote:
> Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going 
> to do that -- swap code between students.
>
> The other thing I was going to do in the same vein was give a programming 
> assignment -- perhaps with a fairly tight deadline -- and halfway through say 
> "oh, wait, the specs have changed" and hand them a somewhat different variant 
> of the problem. (I thought that modeled real life programming!)
>
> Charles
>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:17:05 -0400, Steve Thompson  wrote:
>
>> In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible
>> to maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the
>> students that I would be picking a programming lesson, where once
>> it was completed, everyone would have to swap card decks and then
>> have to add the next lesson's function to it. They would be
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Steve Thompson]

I just wasn't that devious, but yeah, happens in real shops more 
than one cares to admit.


Steve Thompson

On 3/28/2023 6:20 PM, Charles Mills wrote:

Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going 
to do that -- swap code between students.

The other thing I was going to do in the same vein was give a programming assignment -- 
perhaps with a fairly tight deadline -- and halfway through say "oh, wait, the specs 
have changed" and hand them a somewhat different variant of the problem. (I thought 
that modeled real life programming!)

Charles

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:17:05 -0400, Steve Thompson  wrote:


In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible
to maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the
students that I would be picking a programming lesson, where once
it was completed, everyone would have to swap card decks and then
have to add the next lesson's function to it. They would be

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Charles Mills]

Ha! I always said if I ever taught programming -- I never have -- I was going 
to do that -- swap code between students.

The other thing I was going to do in the same vein was give a programming 
assignment -- perhaps with a fairly tight deadline -- and halfway through say 
"oh, wait, the specs have changed" and hand them a somewhat different variant 
of the problem. (I thought that modeled real life programming!) 

Charles

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:17:05 -0400, Steve Thompson  wrote:

>In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible
>to maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the
>students that I would be picking a programming lesson, where once
>it was completed, everyone would have to swap card decks and then
>have to add the next lesson's function to it. They would be

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Very good method ... I was teaching programming during my career, much 
the same as you did,
but I never did it like that. But I also encouraged the students to 
discuss their solutions with me
and with other students and required that there be comments and 
meaningful variable names etc.


IMO, the COBOL language and the mainframe is still alive and will not 
die in the near future for the

following reasons:

- the applications are more secure because of the use of decimal data 
(0C7 will often occur, when
uninitialized data is used ... this is often detected during testing. On 
other platforms, you may get

unexpected results, but no abends)

- if you get an ABEND, you have well established analyzing and recovery 
procedures and readable dumps;
compare that to a "segmentation fault" on a Unix box ... you normally 
need to start a debugger to

examine the problem (in the production system?)

- most mainframe shops have established procedures for change management 
etc., and software

doesn't go to production untested etc.

- the system software stack is stable ... on the other platforms, it is 
possible that a software after only
3 years is "legacy" or "toxic" ... with mainframes, legacy starts after 
25 to 30 years :-)

and the software is still readable (well: normally).

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 28.03.2023 um 23:17 schrieb Steve Thompson:
In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible to 
maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the students that 
I would be picking a programming lesson, where once it was completed, 
everyone would have to swap card decks and then have to add the next 
lesson's function to it. They would be graded on getting the lesson 
done, graded on how well they could update someone else's code and on 
how problematic their code was for another person to update it. And 
then there would be one more of these that I would announce with no 
warning to do before the final program was due.


So programming task #3 was done and I announced this was the time for 
the swap.


After that lesson, and me having graded it, code started to have 
meaningful comments and better to understand variable names and logic. 
I never pulled the second one on them because I felt the mission and 
lesson had been accomplished.


I think more instructors should do things like this.

Steve Thompson


On 3/28/2023 5:01 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables with 
strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines COBOL 
program completely unreadable.


I see such programs almost every day.

The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs maintainable is 
the lack of procedures and local variables, IMO.
Because all variables are global, it is almost impossible to 
structure your program into many small independent and
separate blocks, which IMO is crucial when it comes to fighting 
complexity. You need much discipline and talent,
inspired by other programming languages (in my case PL/1 - Pascal - C 
- Assembler, to name a few), if you want to produce

good quality software in a shop who is COBOL only :-(

I'm doing this for more than 3 years now ... new COBOL software every 
day. COBOL is not dead and will not be

for the next 10 to 20 years, at least.

Kind regards

Bernd



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Steve Thompson]

In an effort to keep people from writing difficult to impossible 
to maintain code, while I was teaching COBOL, I warned the 
students that I would be picking a programming lesson, where once 
it was completed, everyone would have to swap card decks and then 
have to add the next lesson's function to it. They would be 
graded on getting the lesson done, graded on how well they could 
update someone else's code and on how problematic their code was 
for another person to update it. And then there would be one more 
of these that I would announce with no warning to do before the 
final program was due.


So programming task #3 was done and I announced this was the time 
for the swap.


After that lesson, and me having graded it, code started to have 
meaningful comments and better to understand variable names and 
logic. I never pulled the second one on them because I felt the 
mission and lesson had been accomplished.


I think more instructors should do things like this.

Steve Thompson


On 3/28/2023 5:01 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables 
with strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines 
COBOL program completely unreadable.


I see such programs almost every day.

The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs 
maintainable is the lack of procedures and local variables, IMO.
Because all variables are global, it is almost impossible to 
structure your program into many small independent and
separate blocks, which IMO is crucial when it comes to fighting 
complexity. You need much discipline and talent,
inspired by other programming languages (in my case PL/1 - 
Pascal - C - Assembler, to name a few), if you want to produce

good quality software in a shop who is COBOL only :-(

I'm doing this for more than 3 years now ... new COBOL software 
every day. COBOL is not dead and will not be

for the next 10 to 20 years, at least.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 28.03.2023 um 17:05 schrieb David Spiegel:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating 
of large, complex commercial programs..."
Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software 
vendor's Payroll package.
The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of 
copybooks. When compiled, the listing was so big that it was 
near impossible to follow.
Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help 
too much.
Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years 
ago) generated COBOL listing?
My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy 
COBOL.
I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early 
'80s). These 3 can be readable if there are departmental 
standards in place.


Caveat: I still program Rexx and given the chance would (and 
have) program(med) PL/I -- my favourite compiled language.
(Edsger W. Dijkstra be damned. (If he had to work in a 
commercial (aka "real") environment (instead of his ivory 
tower), his opinion might've been tempered a bit.) )


Regards,
David



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

PL/I (or actually PL/C) was the first language I was exposed to, also - took a 
class in college while getting my Accounting degree - and I still think it's 
wonderful.  A classmate was interviewing me for a job with his employer a few 
years later and asked me what I thought to be the principle advantage of PL/I.  
For me that was easy:  Detailed control of storage.  (He agreed with me, but he 
didn't hire me.)

A few years later I worked for a university and got a chance to teach myself 
Algol.  What I remember most about it is the paucity of its built-in functions, 
but it was easy enough to write my own so it didn't bother me much.

I agree with Seymour:  If you can program in one language, you can learn 
another.  At least, so it seems to me.  Programming is an approach to a 
problems, not the actual language.  I not tired yet of learning more.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Opinions expressed in this post are not those of my employer.  The opinion 
of my employer is that I should get back to work. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 06:35

Yes, COBOL has a lot of faults, and, yes, I consider PL/I to be much better. 
However, a real programmer should be able to pick up a new language and be 
productive in it, even one that he hates.

I distinguish between a person that views programming through COBOL colored 
glasses and a programmer who happens to be using COBOL; it is unfair to link 
the latter with the faults of the former.

IMHO, nobody really knows a language unless they are able to see deficiencies 
in a language. I love PL/I and REXX, but there are definitely things that I 
would change in each.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 1:56 AM

During my early training we were sent to learn Michael Jackson structured 
programming. MJ quotes Dijkstra a lot, however, I didn't realise that he was a 
PL/I hater. That was the first language I learned and still think it was a 
masterpiece. I encountered COBOL after I left IBM and it happened to be 
Microfocus COBOL, a very odd variant designed for Z80/CPM based microcomputers. 
It barely did the job since it only supported a rudimentary ISAM file system. A 
couple of years later as our software house was going broke, I went for an 
interview for a DOS/VSE COBOL role. The customer was doubtful that my MF COBOL 
would translate to a mainframe role. It didn't prove to be a problem but oh how 
I wished it had been a PL/I shop.

--- On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:27 PM Tony Harminc  wrote:
> "If Fortran has been called an infantile disorder, PL/I must be 
> classified as a fatal disease."
> -Edsger Dijkstra in Introduction to the Art of Computer Programming
>
> Which prompted, or at least provided a juicy quote for, Ric Holt's
> 1972 paper "Teaching the Fatal Disease (or) Introductory Computer 
> Programming Using PL/I".

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bernd Oppolzer]

With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables with 
strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines COBOL 
program completely unreadable.


I see such programs almost every day.

The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs maintainable is 
the lack of procedures and local variables, IMO.
Because all variables are global, it is almost impossible to structure 
your program into many small independent and
separate blocks, which IMO is crucial when it comes to fighting 
complexity. You need much discipline and talent,
inspired by other programming languages (in my case PL/1 - Pascal - C - 
Assembler, to name a few), if you want to produce

good quality software in a shop who is COBOL only :-(

I'm doing this for more than 3 years now ... new COBOL software every 
day. COBOL is not dead and will not be

for the next 10 to 20 years, at least.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 28.03.2023 um 17:05 schrieb David Spiegel:

Hi Bill,
You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, 
complex commercial programs..."
Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software vendor's 
Payroll package.
The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks. 
When compiled, the listing was so big that it was near impossible to 
follow.

Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help too much.
Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years ago) 
generated COBOL listing?

My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy COBOL.
I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early '80s). 
These 3 can be readable if there are departmental standards in place.


Caveat: I still program Rexx and given the chance would (and have) 
program(med) PL/I -- my favourite compiled language.
(Edsger W. Dijkstra be damned. (If he had to work in a commercial (aka 
"real") environment (instead of his ivory tower), his opinion might've 
been tempered a bit.) )


Regards,
David



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Bob Bridges]

Ok, to be fair I tnd to abbrvt evrthg I can and use two- and thr-chr var
nams.  I couldn't do that if I were still writing application programs for
my employer.  Instead I write tools, utilities and commands that anyone can
use but no one bothers to maintain.  I try to be careful to use a consistent
naming scheme and to leave behind lots of comments, but I do get that COBOL
would force me to be less concise.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to
enforce a law not supported by the people.  -Hubert H. Humphrey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:26

I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time
ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It
seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial
programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long
ago.

--- Bob Bridges wrote:
>I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that 
>it's so WORDY.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Thomas Kern]

Sorry, I have had my fill of debugging BookMaster/GML to produce 
printable daily calendars for the big boss. I still used WSCRIPT and 
some macro collections for my personal documents (for as long as I had a 
mainframe to use).



Tom

On 3/28/2023 11:15 AM, Schmitt, Michael wrote:

You're close but this is an IBM product.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Thomas Kern
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like
working with COBOL.


Tom

On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:

Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on 
your keyboard?  LOL

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it is 
doing.

Unlike this:

.if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
.el .se *i = 2
.se *tp = ''
.se *pos = &*tp
..@tbloop
.se *l = '&*&*i
.se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
.se *pos = &*pos + &*l
.se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
.se *i = &*i + 1
.if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
.tp &*tp
.br
.dm off
.dm inwidth on
.if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
.el  .se *direct = '+'
.se *str   = '&*&*0'
.se *width = '''&*str
.in &*direct.&*width.DH
.dm off
.dm setup on
.if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
.se @SEsetup = yes
.im &*


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]


I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that
it's so WORDY.

***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time ago. However, I very 
much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It seems to help with maintenance and updating of 
large, complex commercial programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) 
long ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the constantly changing, 
sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the PC languages today. (And, since so much of 
COBOL programming seems to be in significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent 
"little problem details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)

Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather 
"northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential application 
program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I do remember seeing a 
listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme opposite of WORDY. It was APL, of 
course, and even the authors needed considerable practice to be able to explain how it 
worked. (We rejected the potential SW product and managed to escape without being 
murdered.)

Bill Ogden

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Frank Swarbrick]

COBOL now has:

PERFORM UNTIL EXIT
[...]
END-PERFORM

And it has finally been implemented in Enterprise COBOL (v6.4; backported to 
v6.3 on my request!).


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Andrew Rowley 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 5:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On 28/03/2023 9:34 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I once found myself defending the common idiom
>
> for (;;) {
>foo;
> }
>
> as a perfectly clear DO FOREVER.

I'm not sure that it is completely clear, it depends on knowledge if
whether the empty statement evaluates as true or false - or just a guess
that do forever is more likely than do never...

Personally, I prefer something like:

while (TRUE)
{

}

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

What do you see there that's not the same in SCRIPTW and SCRIPT/VS?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Thomas Kern [0041d919e708-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 11:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like
working with COBOL.


Tom

On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on 
> your keyboard?  LOL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Schmitt, Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call 
> by value]
>
> Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it 
> is doing.
>
> Unlike this:
>
> .if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
> .el .se *i = 2
> .se *tp = ''
> .se *pos = &*tp
> ..@tbloop
> .se *l = '&*&*i
> .se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
> .se *pos = &*pos + &*l
> .se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
> .se *i = &*i + 1
> .if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
> .tp &*tp
> .br
> .dm off
> .dm inwidth on
> .if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
> .el  .se *direct = '+'
> .se *str   = '&*&*0'
> .se *width = '''&*str
> .in &*direct.&*width.DH
> .dm off
> .dm setup on
> .if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
> .se @SEsetup = yes
> .im &*
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> billogden
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
>> I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that
>> it's so WORDY.
> ***
> I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time 
> ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It 
> seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial 
> programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long 
> ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the 
> constantly changing, sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the 
> PC languages today. (And, since so much of COBOL programming seems to be in 
> significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent "little problem 
> details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)
>
> Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather 
> "northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential application 
> program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I do remember 
> seeing a listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme opposite of 
> WORDY. It was APL, of course, and even the authors needed considerable 
> practice to be able to explain how it worked. (We rejected the potential SW 
> product and managed to escape without being murdered.)
>
> Bill Ogden
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
> disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is 
> not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 
> this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in 
> reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by 
> replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in 
> electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@li

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

The two are fairly close. I've used, and like, both.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 11:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

You're close but this is an IBM product.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Thomas Kern
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like
working with COBOL.


Tom

On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on 
> your keyboard?  LOL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Schmitt, Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call 
> by value]
>
> Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it 
> is doing.
>
> Unlike this:
>
> .if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
> .el .se *i = 2
> .se *tp = ''
> .se *pos = &*tp
> ..@tbloop
> .se *l = '&*&*i
> .se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
> .se *pos = &*pos + &*l
> .se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
> .se *i = &*i + 1
> .if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
> .tp &*tp
> .br
> .dm off
> .dm inwidth on
> .if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
> .el  .se *direct = '+'
> .se *str   = '&*&*0'
> .se *width = '''&*str
> .in &*direct.&*width.DH
> .dm off
> .dm setup on
> .if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
> .se @SEsetup = yes
> .im &*
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> billogden
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
>> I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that
>> it's so WORDY.
> ***
> I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time 
> ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It 
> seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial 
> programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long 
> ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the 
> constantly changing, sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the 
> PC languages today. (And, since so much of COBOL programming seems to be in 
> significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent "little problem 
> details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)
>
> Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather 
> "northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential application 
> program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I do remember 
> seeing a listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme opposite of 
> WORDY. It was APL, of course, and even the authors needed considerable 
> practice to be able to explain how it worked. (We rejected the potential SW 
> product and managed to escape without being murdered.)
>
> Bill Ogden
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
> disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is 
> not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 
> this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in 
> reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by 
> replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety,

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Seymour J Metz]

How do you mark up a thesis in COBOL?

Yes, I know that you're more likely to use LaTeX than Script, but the point 
remains that the macro language is an adjunct to a fairly easy to read language.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schmitt, Michael [michael.schm...@dxc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it is 
doing.

Unlike this:

.if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
.el .se *i = 2
.se *tp = ''
.se *pos = &*tp
...@tbloop
.se *l = '&*&*i
.se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
.se *pos = &*pos + &*l
.se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
.se *i = &*i + 1
.if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
.tp &*tp
.br
.dm off
.dm inwidth on
.if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
.el  .se *direct = '+'
.se *str   = '&*&*0'
.se *width = '''&*str
.in &*direct.&*width.DH
.dm off
.dm setup on
.if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
.se @SEsetup = yes
.im &*


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

>I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that it's so
>WORDY.
***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time
ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It
seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial
programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long
ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the
constantly changing, sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the
PC languages today. (And, since so much of COBOL programming seems to be in
significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent "little problem
details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)

Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather
"northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential
application program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I
do remember seeing a listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme
opposite of WORDY. It was APL, of course, and even the authors needed
considerable practice to be able to explain how it worked. (We rejected the
potential SW product and managed to escape without being murdered.)

Bill Ogden

--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Schmitt, Michael]

You're close but this is an IBM product.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Thomas Kern
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 10:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like
working with COBOL.


Tom

On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on 
> your keyboard?  LOL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Schmitt, Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call 
> by value]
>
> Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it 
> is doing.
>
> Unlike this:
>
> .if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
> .el .se *i = 2
> .se *tp = ''
> .se *pos = &*tp
> ..@tbloop
> .se *l = '&*&*i
> .se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
> .se *pos = &*pos + &*l
> .se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
> .se *i = &*i + 1
> .if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
> .tp &*tp
> .br
> .dm off
> .dm inwidth on
> .if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
> .el  .se *direct = '+'
> .se *str   = '&*&*0'
> .se *width = '''&*str
> .in &*direct.&*width.DH
> .dm off
> .dm setup on
> .if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
> .se @SEsetup = yes
> .im &*
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> billogden
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
>> I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that
>> it's so WORDY.
> ***
> I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time 
> ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It 
> seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial 
> programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long 
> ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the 
> constantly changing, sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the 
> PC languages today. (And, since so much of COBOL programming seems to be in 
> significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent "little problem 
> details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)
>
> Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather 
> "northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential application 
> program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I do remember 
> seeing a listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme opposite of 
> WORDY. It was APL, of course, and even the authors needed considerable 
> practice to be able to explain how it worked. (We rejected the potential SW 
> product and managed to escape without being murdered.)
>
> Bill Ogden
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
> The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
> disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is 
> not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[David Spiegel]

Hi Bill,
You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, 
complex commercial programs..."
Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software vendor's 
Payroll package.
The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks. 
When compiled, the listing was so big that it was near impossible to follow.

Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help too much.
Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years ago) 
generated COBOL listing?

My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy COBOL.
I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early '80s). 
These 3 can be readable if there are departmental standards in place.


Caveat: I still program Rexx and given the chance would (and have) 
program(med) PL/I -- my favourite compiled language.
(Edsger W. Dijkstra be damned. (If he had to work in a commercial (aka 
"real") environment (instead of his ivory tower), his opinion might've 
been tempered a bit.) )


Regards,
David

On 2023-03-28 10:25, billogden wrote:

I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that it's so
WORDY.

***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time
ago. However, I very much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It
seems to help with maintenance and updating of large, complex commercial
programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) long
ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the
constantly changing, sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the
PC languages today. (And, since so much of COBOL programming seems to be in
significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent "little problem
details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)

Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather
"northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential
application program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I
do remember seeing a listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme
opposite of WORDY. It was APL, of course, and even the authors needed
considerable practice to be able to explain how it worked. (We rejected the
potential SW product and managed to escape without being murdered.)

Bill Ogden

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

[Thomas Kern]

I haven't seen the inside of Waterloo Script macros for al LONG time. It 
will take me a while to get back into reading/debugging this just like 
working with COBOL.



Tom

On 3/28/2023 10:50 AM, Pommier, Rex wrote:

Are you sure this is a program and not the result of a cat dancing a jig on 
your keyboard?  LOL

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

Yeah, but you can come back to a program years later and understand what it is 
doing.

Unlike this:

.if &*i = 0 .th .se *i = 1
.el .se *i = 2
.se *tp = ''
.se *pos = &*tp
..@tbloop
.se *l = '&*&*i
.se *l = &*l + 2 + &$IN
.se *pos = &*pos + &*l
.se *tp = '&*tp &*pos'
.se *i = &*i + 1
.if &*i <= &*0 .th .go @tbloop
.tp &*tp
.br
.dm off
.dm inwidth on
.if '&*1 = OFF .th .se *direct = '-'
.el  .se *direct = '+'
.se *str   = '&*&*0'
.se *width = '''&*str
.in &*direct.&*width.DH
.dm off
.dm setup on
.if '@SEsetup = 1 .th .me
.se @SEsetup = yes
.im &*


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
billogden
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 9:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]


I myself dislike COBOL for the very simple and personal reason that
it's so WORDY.

***
I am not a COBOL programmer, except for some very minor attempts a long time ago. However, I very 
much respect the proper use of the WORDY aspect. It seems to help with maintenance and updating of 
large, complex commercial programs that were originally written (in good, well-thought out words) 
long ago. The language itself has been carefully updated and seems to lack the constantly changing, 
sometimes not-so-well-thought-out aspect of many of the PC languages today. (And, since so much of 
COBOL programming seems to be in significant financial areas, it seems to avoid the frequent 
"little problem details" that apparently afflict the "more modern" languages.)

Very short story: Long ago, my manager and I were sent to a smaller, rather 
"northern" country to evaluate (to sell to customers) a potential application 
program written there. I cannot remember the application, but I do remember seeing a 
listing that fit on a single page, being an extreme opposite of WORDY. It was APL, of 
course, and even the authors needed considerable practice to be able to explain how it 
worked. (We rejected the potential SW product and managed to escape without being 
murdered.)

Bill Ogden

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The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from 
disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not 
the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this 
message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, 
distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, 
is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this 
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this 
message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard 
copy format. Thank you.

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