Marshall Eubanks wrote:
True, but that does not mean that you should decide that there is
nothing the IETF can do to change those characteristics or is in fact
doing albeit unintentionally.
So, what would you do to adjust things ?
Regards
Marshall
Some suggestions:
- Increase IETF brand
From: Hannes Tschofenig [hannes.tschofe...@nsn.com]
In the telecommunication industry you have also seen a lot of layoffs over
the last 10 years and so there are rarely young people around in these
companies anymore (because they either got fired or left the company
voluntarily).
... or
On 2012-05-05 04:48, Yoav Nir wrote:
...
an obvious idea would be to change the requirements for a new work item from
rough consensus to a bunch of people willing to do the work and at least
one willing to implement. Some working groups already work like this, but
it's not universal.
Hi Avri,
It may not be line a hiring manager, but all those who have budget can make it
a point to make sure some of the younger engineers get to some of the
meetings, at least the ones that are relatively local to them. I assume that
many of the older participants, have the means to
Hi Martin,
The DNT privacy work was just an example of something that did not work out.
At this point in time the details don't matter anymore since the work
already happens at the W3C.
My point is that you will not find interest from young engineers to work on
10 year old topics. You can try
As a counter-point (which supports your position G) the creation of
the CODEC WG has actually brought a number of people/companies into
active IETF involvement that were likely never involved before.
Right.
Whether that working group also attracted the type of people PHB or others
want is
--On Tuesday, May 01, 2012 19:07 -0800 Melinda Shore
melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/1/12 5:55 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
What would be good patterns for those roles?
I don't know what John has in mind but it strikes me that every
so often we get a wave of new participants (as
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:43 AM, John C Klensin john-i...@jck.com wrote:
But, even a step or two in the direction of promoting or preferring
less-able women in order to make IETF bodies more diverse would be
likely to result in shooting ourselves in our collective feet.
I think the analysis
--On Friday, May 04, 2012 11:01 -0700 Ted Hardie
ted.i...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:43 AM, John C Klensin
john-i...@jck.com wrote:
But, even a step or two in the direction of promoting or
preferring less-able women in order to make IETF bodies more
diverse would be
Hi John,
At 10:43 04-05-2012, John C Klensin wrote:
garb on a regular basis is unreasonable. So, unless we want to
send the message that all of the senior members of the community
are necessarily male (and inclined to grow beards), we need to
find another term.
The term SIR was proposed
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
hannes.tschofe...@gmx.net wrote:
Hi PHB,
the IETF is not like an enterprise where you can decide (as part of the
hiring process) what characteristics your employees should have.
True, but that does not mean that you should decide that there
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
hannes.tschofe...@gmx.net wrote:
Hi PHB,
the IETF is not like an enterprise where you can decide (as part of the
hiring process) what characteristics your employees
On May 5, 2012, at 4:58 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
hannes.tschofe...@gmx.net wrote:
Hi PHB,
the IETF is not like an enterprise where you can decide (as part of
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Melinda Shore melinda.sh...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know what John has in mind but it strikes me that every
so often we get a wave of new participants (as new topics and/or
work areas are introduced) and it seems to me that it would be
valuable if people
On 5/2/2012 8:11 AM, Scott Brim wrote:
Here I'm not so sure. While retaining the basic mission statement,
IETF culture_should_ change, to fit the times and to be relevant.
While true, it should be a balancing act, between adapting methods to
the times, while preserving core values.
Hi PHB,
the IETF is not like an enterprise where you can decide (as part of the hiring
process) what characteristics your employees should have.
In a volunteer organization the offered topics drive the participation. Ask
yourself: what you as someone who just finished a university education
On 05/02/2012 02:14 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
When people suggest new work to the IETF they often see a strange reaction. I remember
when Mozilla came to the IETF and proposed to work on the privacy topic Do Not
Track. I couldn't find support for doing the work in the IETF. I don't exactly
Howevermuch the answer to the Subject question was not true when the
thread started, it's true now...
d/
--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
When people suggest new work to the IETF they often see a strange
reaction. I remember when Mozilla came to the IETF and proposed to
work on the privacy topic Do Not Track. I couldn't find support
for doing the work in the IETF. I don't exactly know why people
Hi,
It may not be line a hiring manager, but all those who have budget can make it
a point to make sure some of the younger engineers get to some of the meetings,
at least the ones that are relatively local to them. I assume that many of the
older participants, have the means to influence the
From: Mary Barnes [mary.ietf.bar...@gmail.com]
Personally, I think IETF has far more of an issue when it comes to
cultural and gender diversity than it does with not having enough
younger folks. This is particularly visible in the leadership.
Given that one moves up in the IETF through
--On Tuesday, May 01, 2012 15:15 -0400 Worley, Dale R (Dale)
dwor...@avaya.com wrote:
...
That is, to be aware of the need to keep the
leadership corps continuously refreshed with younger and
less-experienced people. Which more or less requires a method
of culling the greybeards, given
Hi John,
At 13:39 01-05-2012, John C Klensin wrote:
Speaking as a greybeard who doesn't particularly like the idea
of being culled, an alternative is to try to move such people on
to mentoring/ advisory roles (and the few tasks we have around
that _really_ need many years of experience) rather
From: John C Klensin [john-i...@jck.com]
The harder part
--because it does require community and leadership commitment --
is finding ways to make those mentoring/ advisory roles work.
What would be good patterns
--On Friday, April 27, 2012 15:29 -0400 Phillip Hallam-Baker
hal...@gmail.com wrote:
55-65 (aging Cerf era grad students)
The aging Cerf era grad students and the rest of that cohort
are all over 65. I'm probably the youngest of that group who
are still visible in the IETF and am older than
One response below [MB].
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 1:53 PM, SM s...@resistor.net wrote:
At 07:41 27-04-2012, Yoav Nir wrote:
After each meeting, Ray sends out a survey to all participants. The
results from the latest one:
When were you born?
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
Mary,
I have to agree. As is common, gender imbalance can be treated as a
joke only by those who
aren't affected.
For those of us without male privilege (or other types of course)
who have experienced the effects of subtle or blatant discrimination,
it is no joke.
Nor is it caused by a lack of
Hi Phil
After each meeting, Ray sends out a survey to all participants. The results
from the latest one:
When were you born?
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
1961 - 1970 33.7%
1971 - 1980 32.8%
After 198014.0%
I think an earlier survey had the 1971-1980 crowd inch
On Fri Apr 27 15:06:36 2012, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
A question arose on the RFC-interest list, I observed that 20 years
ago I was one of the youngest IETF participants and 20 years later
that still seems to be the case.
I suspect that there's a marked skew toward the older participants in
On Apr 27, 2012, at 16:41, Yoav Nir wrote:
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
1961 - 1970 33.7%
1971 - 1980 32.8%
After 198014.0%
Nice bell curve, יואב, but you can't pop that soap bubble of perception with
the bluntness of raw data :-)
Maybe just the areas where PHB
Personally, I think that may depend upon the Area in which you are active.
The RAI area from my perspective has a bunch of youngsters - mid-late 20s
30s. And, I'm not as old as some of you all ;)
Personally, I think IETF has far more of an issue when it comes to cultural
and gender diversity
Security could very well be an area that faces rather different
challenges to other areas.
It is pretty different to the other areas in that it is rather more
intimidating than most and there are many other forums where decisions
are made. The IETF doesn't even own X.509, that is ITU, it doesn't
On Apr 27, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
On Apr 27, 2012, at 16:41, Yoav Nir wrote:
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
1961 - 1970 33.7%
1971 - 1980 32.8%
After 198014.0%
Nice bell curve, יואב, but you can't pop that soap bubble of perception with
the
If I look around me, I see young people developing PHP, AJAX, … almost all of
this is not handled in IETF. If I look at company valuations recently, there
are at the same level in the stack: i.e. web apps. So I guess the plumbers
are getting old, but the designers are younger and not here.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Phillip == Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com writes:
Phillip A question arose on the RFC-interest list, I observed that
Phillip 20 years ago I was one of the youngest IETF participants
Phillip and 20 years later that still seems to
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker [hal...@gmail.com]
Security could very well be an area that faces rather different
challenges to other areas.
Of course -- In most areas, a creative, low-cost solution that works
90% of the time can be the basis of a new company, if not an entire
industry. In
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker [hal...@gmail.com]
People can argue about process, RFC formats and governance but it
should be beyond argument that any institution that cannot recruit
younger members is going to die.
Well, the Internet as we know it is 30 years old now, and not changing
nearly
Hallam-Baker
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List
Subject: Re: Is the IETF aging?
If I look around me, I see young people developing PHP, AJAX, ... almost all of
this is not handled in IETF. If I look at company valuations recently, there
are at the same level in the stack: i.e. web apps. So I guess
On 04/27/2012 04:41 PM, Yoav Nir wrote:
Hi Phil
After each meeting, Ray sends out a survey to all participants. The results
from the latest one:
When were you born?
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
1961 - 1970 33.7%
1971 - 1980 32.8%
After 198014.0%
The
On 4/27/12 8:42 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
The greybeards talk more. Especially in plenaries.
Ain't that the truth.
I didn't go to meetings for some number of years and when I
started going again I saw a *lot* of new faces, not all of
whom are young. It seems to me that a static
It seems to me that a static participant base would clearly
be more of an issue than age, per se. There's pretty clearly
some churn, whether it's because of an influx of people from
a new (to the IETF) geographic area, or because of an influx
of people wanting to work on a new (to the IETF)
On 4/27/12 9:34 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
ietf, nanog, ripe, ... meetings all generally have 1/3
newcomers. janog less so.
Sure, and organizational stability is good. But what I'm saying is
that over a period of several years I've noticed the appearance of
new constituencies. There was probably
Maybe we would do better if we required attendees to dress as furries. Their
conventions seem to attract a younger crowd.
Sent from my iPhone
-Original Message-
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Phillip Hallam-Baker
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012
Hi John,
Who proposes does !
Can't wait to see you in Vancouver ;)
Cheers,
R.
Maybe we would do better if we required attendees to dress as furries. Their
conventions seem to attract a younger crowd.
Sent from my iPhone
At 07:41 27-04-2012, Yoav Nir wrote:
After each meeting, Ray sends out a survey to all participants. The
results from the latest one:
When were you born?
Before 19502.9%
1950 - 1960 16.6%
1961 - 1970 33.7%
1971 - 1980 32.8%
After 198014.0%
These are the results from
--On Friday, April 27, 2012 10:34 -0700 Randy Bush
ra...@psg.com wrote:
It seems to me that a static participant base would clearly
be more of an issue than age, per se. There's pretty clearly
some churn, whether it's because of an influx of people from
a new (to the IETF) geographic area,
On Apr 27, 2012, at 2:53 PM, SM wrote:
Mary Barnes is the only participant who mentions the gender problem. As
such, I gather that the IETF does not have a gender problem. :-)
The rest of us are too busy struggling to succeed in this male-dominated regime
to have time to read these threads.
I have been taking a look at the series and the problem is that the
brackets are just not granular enough.
If you were born in 1970 you would be 25 in 1995, the year the dotcom
bubble started to inflate. That was a really good time for someone
with networking experience to be starting out.
If
-Original Message-
From: ietf-boun...@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Margaret Wasserman
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 12:25 PM
To: SM
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List
Subject: Re: Is the IETF aging?
On Apr 27, 2012, at 2:53 PM, SM wrote:
Mary Barnes
On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:23 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
At the risk of repeating something about which various ADs and
others have gotten an earful, unless there are very special and
unusual circumstances [Note 1], it is unwise to, e.g., have us
chair a WG or assume many other leadership
On Apr 27, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
I don't even know if the lack of female attendance at the IETF is a problem,
because I don't know how our percentages map to the percentage of female
networking engineers in the industry, or to the percentage of females who
attend other
On 4/27/12 13:32 , Alissa Cooper wrote:
On Apr 27, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
I don't even know if the lack of female attendance at the IETF is a
problem, because I don't know how our percentages map to the
percentage of female networking engineers in the industry,
Not a lot
Discussion Mailing List
Subject: Re: Is the IETF aging?
On Apr 27, 2012, at 2:53 PM, SM wrote:
Mary Barnes is the only participant who mentions the gender problem. As
such, I gather that the IETF does not have a gender problem. :-)
The rest of us are too busy struggling to succeed in this male
On 4/27/12 11:24 AM, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
I don't even know if the lack of female attendance at the IETF is a
problem, because I don't know how our percentages map to the
percentage of female networking engineers in the industry, or to the
percentage of females who attend other major
At 13:32 27-04-2012, Alissa Cooper wrote:
I don't think the meeting survey hasn't asked about gender in the
past. Maybe it should.
Yes.
At 12:24 27-04-2012, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
I don't think that the relatively low numbers of women in the IETF
leadership are necessarily indicative of a
* Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
A question arose on the RFC-interest list, I observed that 20 years
ago I was one of the youngest IETF participants and 20 years later
that still seems to be the case.
I had my first Internet-Draft published in my teens, as one data point.
I see some grad students
--On Friday, April 27, 2012 13:24 -0700 Paul Hoffman
paul.hoff...@vpnc.org wrote:
On Apr 27, 2012, at 12:23 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
At the risk of repeating something about which various ADs and
others have gotten an earful, unless there are very special
and unusual circumstances [Note
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