Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi Matthew We're going to skip over the reiterations of Juliettes arguments, as they have already been responded to. On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 12:08 AM Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 4:41 PM Ilija Tovilo wrote: >> >> https://externals.io/message/122445#122667 >> > > 2.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Fri, Apr 12, 2024, at 2:55 AM, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > The first part of my email (up to the "Furthermore") was mostly me > trying to summarize the complexity of the proposal and to compare it to > existing syntaxes and list those things which - to me - appeared > inconsistent

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On 10 April 2024 04:40:13 BST, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: * Whether a type can be specified on the parameter on `set` depends on whether the property is typed. You cannot declare `set(mixed $value)` for an untyped property, even though it would effectively be compatible. This is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi, On 12.04.24 04:55, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: Hi Ilija, On 12-4-2024 1:00, Ilija Tovilo wrote: Oh, and hang on, they *can* be read from a method in the same class as long as that method is called from within the set hook, so now the method will need to either do a backtrace or

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi Ilija, On 12-4-2024 1:00, Ilija Tovilo wrote: On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: I realize it is late in the discussion period to speak up, but for months I've been trying to find the words to express my concerns in a polite and constructive way and have failed. First of

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi Juliette On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: >> >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks >> > > I realize it is late in the discussion period to speak up, but for months > I've been trying to find the words to express my concerns in a

Re: External Message: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 10:41 PM Mark Trapp wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:59 AM Jeffrey Dafoe wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01 PM Erick de Azevedo Lima > > > wrote: > > > Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for

Re: External Message: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:59 AM Jeffrey Dafoe wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01 PM Erick de Azevedo Lima > > wrote: > > Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for a > > trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 22:31, Tim Düsterhus wrote: > Hi > > On 4/10/24 10:28, Arvids Godjuks wrote: > > The amount of complexity in these two hooks is on the level of the whole > > PHP OOP model with the number of footguns and WTF cases to rival magic > > quotes, register_globals=on and every

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi On 4/10/24 10:28, Arvids Godjuks wrote: The amount of complexity in these two hooks is on the level of the whole PHP OOP model with the number of footguns and WTF cases to rival magic quotes, register_globals=on and every other infamous gotcha we had in the engine that got deleted out of

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 18:52, Erick de Azevedo Lima < ericklima.c...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Reminder to not run into a sunk cost fallacy. > > My main point was not the cost/work itself, but the fact that big concerns > should be raised ASAP, and not on the 11th hour, as Robert said. > Whether we

RE: External Message: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01 PM Erick de Azevedo Lima > wrote: > Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for a > trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less work to > implement and test all the variantes

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

> Reminder to not run into a sunk cost fallacy. My main point was not the cost/work itself, but the fact that big concerns should be raised ASAP, and not on the 11th hour, as Robert said. Whether we like it or not, the voting right beholders' concerns should be taken into account with "special

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 16:56, Alex Wells wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01 PM Erick de Azevedo Lima < > ericklima.c...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for a >> trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less work

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi, > To an outsider, it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right before the > vote starts. What's even more startling is that there are people with voting > rights who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet have a right > to wordlessly affect the vote's outcome. I

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On 4/10/24 07:56, Alex Wells wrote: To an outsider, it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right before the vote starts. What's even more startling is that there are people with voting rights who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet have a right to wordlessly affect the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On 10/04/2024 15:56, Alex Wells wrote: To an outsider, it looks wild when feedback starts coming in right before the vote starts. What's even more startling is that there are people with voting rights who have never participated in the discussion at all, yet have a right to wordlessly affect

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi Ilija, Larry, Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property > hooks RFC tomorrow: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks > I would make 3 changes to the RFC if I were in charge : - I'd make $this->propName inside a hook access the parent property via its hooks

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:01 PM Erick de Azevedo Lima < ericklima.c...@gmail.com> wrote: > Maybe if such a feedback was given before and it was decided to go for a > trimmed version of the feature, maybe Ilija/Larry could have had less work > to implement and test all the variantes they've done.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

> As someone who has spent a number of years writing C#, the RFC look> quite sane. Same here. > Removing it because "it complicates things" isn't really a good reason, IMHO. I think the same. FFI, for instance, is powerful but one can make a mess with it. > Then watching the feedback here, at

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi, Il 10/04/2024 05:40, Juliette Reinders Folmer ha scritto: --- TL;DR: this RFC tries to do too much in one go and introduces a huge amount of cognitive complexity with all the exceptions and the differences in behaviour between virtual and backed properties. This cognitive complexity is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 5:49 AM Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > > On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > > On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: > > Hi everyone > > Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property > hooks RFC tomorrow: >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 06:43, Juliette Reinders Folmer < php-internals_nos...@adviesenzo.nl> wrote: > On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > > On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: > > Hi everyone > > Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property > hooks RFC

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 5:47 AM Juliette Reinders Folmer < php-internals_nos...@adviesenzo.nl> wrote: > On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: > > On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: > > Hi everyone > > Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property > hooks RFC

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On 9-4-2024 16:03, Juliette Reinders Folmer wrote: On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: Hi everyone Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property hooks RFC tomorrow: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks We have worked long and hard on this RFC, and hope that we have

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

> Instead, we are planning to re-propose asymmetric visibility once > property hooks are merged, as it may become more apparent why it is > useful. I was talking today to a co-worker about this internals e-mail discussion and he thought asymmetric visibility was inherent to property-hooks. He

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi Robert On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 9:34 PM Robert Landers wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 8:56 PM Larry Garfield wrote: > > > > The Aviz RFC was put to a vote last year but didn't pass. > > It would be really nice if votes weren't just a yes/no vote, but > yes/needs-more-work/no vote, where

RFC Process (was: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks)

Hi On 4/9/24 21:32, Robert Landers wrote: The Aviz RFC was put to a vote last year but didn't pass. It would be really nice if votes weren't just a yes/no vote, but yes/needs-more-work/no vote, where needs-more-work and no are effectively the same in terms of passing the RFC, but

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 8:56 PM Larry Garfield wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Levi Morrison wrote: > > > I was playing around with 3v4l.org. Is the implementation up-to-date there? > > > > I don't have any hard objections at the moment, but after playing with > > it for a while, I do

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Tue, Apr 9, 2024, at 4:07 PM, Levi Morrison wrote: > I was playing around with 3v4l.org. Is the implementation up-to-date there? > > I don't have any hard objections at the moment, but after playing with > it for a while, I do kind of wonder if it's a lot of complexity for > what is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 3:42 PM Ilija Tovilo wrote: > > Hi everyone > > Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property > hooks RFC tomorrow: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks > > We have worked long and hard on this RFC, and hope that we have found > some middle-ground

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

On 8-4-2024 23:39, Ilija Tovilo wrote: Hi everyone Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property hooks RFC tomorrow: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks We have worked long and hard on this RFC, and hope that we have found some middle-ground that works for the

[PHP-DEV] [RFC][Vote announcement] Property hooks

Hi everyone Heads-up: Larry and I would like to start the vote of the property hooks RFC tomorrow: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/property-hooks We have worked long and hard on this RFC, and hope that we have found some middle-ground that works for the majority. One last concern we have not officially