Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 21:42, Alexandru Pătrănescu wrote: > What bothers me a bit is why should strlen(false) be a valid method call > but strlen(null) not so much. I think this is the inconsistency that should > be fixed so the language would be easier to work with. > Hi Alexandru, I

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:17 PM Larry Garfield wrote: > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, at 8:00 AM, Craig Francis wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 12:26, Dik Takken wrote: > > > >> So, to get this crystal clear, this is my understanding of what you are > >> proposing for passing null to a non-nullable

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 15:21, Andreas Leathley wrote: > This is the behavior for explicit type casting (strval) and the implicit > casting when using a variable in a string context, like echo or print. > But that's what the RFC is about. Although you do raise a good point, why does

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 14:58, Andreas Leathley wrote: > Comparisons with == are quite worthless Yep, but I'm focusing on how PHP works today, and while I welcome and encourage improvements to the language, it has to be done gracefully... forcing strict type checking on everyone (even if it's

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 02.03.22 16:00, Craig Francis wrote: I'll note that converting from NULL is used all the time, and is well defined: https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.string.php "null is always converted to an empty string." https://www.php.net/manual/en/language.types.integer.php "null is

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 2 Mar 2022, at 14:39, Andreas Leathley wrote: > Type coercion already often does not work - giving the string "s" to an > integer-typed argument will lead to a TypeError, it will not be coerced. > I would prefer less coercions rather than more. Hi Andreas, I'll note that converting from

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 02.03.22 15:27, Craig Francis wrote: On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 14:17, Larry Garfield wrote: Null is not an empty string. Null is not a string. Null is not 0. Null is not an integer. So what should this do? $name = ($_POST['name'] ?? NULL); var_dump($name == ''); Is that now going to be

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 02.03.22 15:00, Craig Francis wrote: On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 12:26, Dik Takken wrote: So, to get this crystal clear, this is my understanding of what you are proposing for passing null to a non-nullable function parameter (hopefully my ASCII art will come through ok): which |

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 14:17, Larry Garfield wrote: > Null is not an empty string. Null is not a string. Null is not 0. Null > is not an integer. > So what should this do? $name = ($_POST['name'] ?? NULL); var_dump($name == ''); Is that now going to be false?

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, at 8:00 AM, Craig Francis wrote: > On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 12:26, Dik Takken wrote: > >> So, to get this crystal clear, this is my understanding of what you are >> proposing for passing null to a non-nullable function parameter >> (hopefully my ASCII art will come through ok):

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 at 12:26, Dik Takken wrote: > So, to get this crystal clear, this is my understanding of what you are > proposing for passing null to a non-nullable function parameter > (hopefully my ASCII art will come through ok): > > > which | strict_types | PHP 8.0| PHP 8.1|

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 01-03-2022 19:10, Craig Francis wrote: I'm pretty confident the best solution is to keep all parameter types the same (I could argue that some parameters could do with a "cannot be empty" exception, to reject NULL and an Empty String, but that would be a different RFC)... and anyone using

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 10:43, Christoph M. Becker wrote: > I said, the BC break doesn't appear to be *that* serious. > It is when it's a Fatal Error, and there are lots of them :-) > To elaborate: in my opinion, it is a good thing if internal functions > and userland functions behave the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 14:12, Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Hi Craig, > > > No, there is an inconsistency which leads to a backwards compatibility > issue, and I'm trying to fix it. > > Which inconsistency exactly do you have in mind? > Ok, let's try with code (I'll skip using variables):

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 13:06, Christian Schneider wrote: > The other way of making internal functions behave like user land functions > would be to change the definition of the internal function to > function htmlentities(?string $value) { ... } > and casting it to string internally which

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Hi Craig, > No, there is an inconsistency which leads to a backwards compatibility issue, and I'm trying to fix it. Which inconsistency exactly do you have in mind? The discussion is about passing arguments to functions. We are not discussing type juggling or type casting. To clarify the whole

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Am 01.03.2022 um 11:43 schrieb Christoph M. Becker : > On 28.02.2022 at 23:11, Christian Schneider wrote: > >> Am 28.02.2022 um 22:05 schrieb Christoph M. Becker : >> >>> On 28.02.2022 at 21:51, Craig Francis wrote: >>> And after all of this, no-one has come up with a way to find or

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 at 09:48, Mark Randall wrote: > You see a problem, but rather than trying to fix the underlying cause, > you're proposing making changes at other layers to accommodate the side > effects of the original problem. > > That is practically the definition of a hack. > No, there

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 28.02.2022 at 23:11, Christian Schneider wrote: > Am 28.02.2022 um 22:05 schrieb Christoph M. Becker : > >> On 28.02.2022 at 21:51, Craig Francis wrote: >> >>> And after all of this, no-one has come up with a way to find or address >>> this problem, e.g. >>> >>> >> $nullable = ($_GET['a'] ??

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 01/03/2022 00:36, Craig Francis wrote: And because I'm back to tired pissed-off sarcasm masking depression (why bother spending days on a solution that works for everyone when we can make a hostile/elitist environment/language)... maybe we could simply suggest that everyone affected by this

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 at 22:11, Christian Schneider wrote: > Am 28.02.2022 um 22:05 schrieb Christoph M. Becker : > > The BC break doesn't appear to be that serious after all. > > I'm not sure I get your point here: If you provide a user-land > implementation of the previous behavior under a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 at 17:35, Guilliam Xavier wrote: > Call me devil's advocate, but is it too late to discuss revisiting past > decisions and consider changing direction towards 1 for userland functions > Hi Guilliam, tbh, for those who use `strict_types=1` nothing changes, so we can ignore

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Am 28.02.2022 um 22:05 schrieb Christoph M. Becker : > On 28.02.2022 at 21:51, Craig Francis wrote: > >> And after all of this, no-one has come up with a way to find or address >> this problem, e.g. >> >> > $nullable = ($_GET['a'] ?? NULL); >> echo htmlentities($nullable); >> ?> > > function

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 28.02.2022 at 21:51, Craig Francis wrote: > And after all of this, no-one has come up with a way to find or address > this problem, e.g. > >$nullable = ($_GET['a'] ?? NULL); > echo htmlentities($nullable); > ?> The BC break doesn't appear to be that serious after all. -- Christoph M.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 at 17:42, Larry Garfield wrote: > Bringing internal functions into line with user-space was the correct > move. There may be internals functions that make sense to be nullable on > their own right, on a case by case basis. We can evaluate that case by > case. > Thanks

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 at 16:41, Dik Takken wrote: > In my view, consistency between internal and userland functions brings a > lot of value, and not only for the language itself. Thanks Dik, I agree that consistency is very important, and I do not want to stop that... I just recognise that

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, at 11:35 AM, Guilliam Xavier wrote: > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 5:41 PM Dik Takken wrote: > >> >> In my view, consistency between internal and userland functions brings a >> lot of value, and not only for the language itself. As soon as internal >> and userland become fully

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Mark Randall wrote: > On 28/02/2022 01:46, Craig Francis wrote: >> Personally I think `strict_types=1` is fine for my code, but I would never >> want to force that style on everyone, because doing so would be fairly >> hostile for a language that's popular and

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 5:41 PM Dik Takken wrote: > > In my view, consistency between internal and userland functions brings a > lot of value, and not only for the language itself. As soon as internal > and userland become fully consistent it will become a lot easier to > write "internal"

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 21-02-2022 10:04, Christoph M. Becker wrote: That "inconsistency" had been introduced with PHP 7.0.0, i.e. right when scalar type declarations have been introduced. Passing a null to a non-nullable parameter of a *userland* function throws a TypeError: . As of PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 28/02/2022 01:46, Craig Francis wrote: Personally I think `strict_types=1` is fine for my code, but I would never want to force that style on everyone, because doing so would be fairly hostile for a language that's popular and well known for being easy to use/learn. Magically coercing

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 14:00, Guilliam Xavier wrote: > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:59 AM Alexandru Pătrănescu > wrote: > > But when types are not considered important I think it's worth pursuing > > extending the coercion from null to the 4 other types where it's > happening > > right now: > > -

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 at 23:17, Craig Francis wrote: > Draft RFC: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/allow_null > To get a better idea on how I should progress this RFC, I've created a simple quiz (well, modified an old script). This is to decide if my RFC should either - continue to allow NULL to be

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:59 AM Alexandru Pătrănescu wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 5:32 PM Craig Francis > wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 at 09:04, Christoph M. Becker > > wrote: > > > > > That "inconsistency" had been introduced with PHP 7.0.0, i.e. right > when > > > scalar type

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 5:32 PM Craig Francis wrote: > On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 at 09:04, Christoph M. Becker > wrote: > > > That "inconsistency" had been introduced with PHP 7.0.0, i.e. right when > > scalar type declarations have been introduced. Passing a null to a > > non-nullable parameter of

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 at 09:04, Christoph M. Becker wrote: > That "inconsistency" had been introduced with PHP 7.0.0, i.e. right when > scalar type declarations have been introduced. Passing a null to a > non-nullable parameter of a *userland* function throws a TypeError > Thanks Christoph,

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 20.02.2022 at 21:38, Craig Francis wrote: > On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 at 23:17, Craig Francis wrote: > >> Draft RFC: >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/allow_null >> > > > I've been over-complicating this... why should NULL be treated so > differently? > >$values = ['a', 1, 2.3, false, NULL]; >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 at 23:17, Craig Francis wrote: > Draft RFC: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/allow_null > I've been over-complicating this... why should NULL be treated so differently? It just struck me, this whole thing is about type coercion when not using `strict_types=1`; and the 8.1

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Den 2022-01-02 kl. 00:17, skrev Craig Francis: On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 at 15:19, Sara Golemon wrote: On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 8:48 AM Craig Francis wrote: Is there any value in me proposing an RFC to update *some* internal functions so they can accept NULL? I'm not hard against this idea. The

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 18:39, Larry Garfield wrote: > I'm not suggesting a separate RFC for each. One RFC with several votes in > it is fine, IMO. > > What I disagree with is changing the definition of strict_types=0 from > "use the well-documented coercion logic at parameter and return points"

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, at 10:39 AM, Craig Francis wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 15:15, Larry Garfield wrote: > If there's an argument to be made to rewiden a type to include null, make >> that case and have that debate on a function by function basis. > > > I'm fine with that, but I worry people

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 07/02/2022 15:34, Craig Francis wrote: So are you suggesting that all the frameworks should change their default to an empty string? or every single project should update every use of these input functions to always override this default, or cast the received value to always be a string? all

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 15:15, Larry Garfield wrote: > The goal is consistency, so keep it consistent. I'd be happy with that. The only reason I've taken this approach is for developers using type checking to identify certain mistakes in their code (which can be useful); so I wanted to keep

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 12:34, Mark Randall wrote: > With regards to your framework comment, any framework worth its salt > will also have the option to provide a default value other than null > when the value is not provided. > Frameworks do allow developers to provide their own default value

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, at 6:57 AM, Christian Schneider wrote: > Am 07.02.2022 um 13:07 schrieb G. P. B. : > So you are basically saying that we should discuss making it > strlen(?string $string): int > which would be cleaner, I agree. I would agree here as well. The goal is consistency, so

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Am 07.02.2022 um 13:07 schrieb G. P. B. : > On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 09:34, Christian Schneider > wrote: > > If a parameter expects a string, that is what it should be given, and its > > the callers' responsibility to ensure that is the case. If they fail to do > > so

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 12:07, G. P. B. wrote: > The list of proposed functions is also excessive and just feels that any > function which raised a diagnostic during a test run on 8.1 was chugged > into it. > Not really, while I did create a throw-away script that used `get_defined_functions()`

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 07/02/2022 12:05, Craig Francis wrote: And specifically with NULL, strings in C are a "one-dimensional array of characters terminated by a null character", so you could say that NULL is very similar to an empty string - maybe that helps address the "pretend its a string" objection? In this

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 09:34, Christian Schneider wrote: > > If a parameter expects a string, that is what it should be given, and > its the callers' responsibility to ensure that is the case. If they fail to > do so then it's an error just like any other. > > The decision to define e.g. strlen()

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 08:36, Mark Randall wrote: > I understand your motivations in proposing them, but to my mind it goes > against the direction that PHP is developing, which I think is the right > one, where errors and likely errors result in stopping execution rather > than allowing it

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Am 07.02.2022 um 09:35 schrieb Mark Randall : > On 07/02/2022 01:27, Craig Francis wrote: >> I know one person simply said this was a "terribl > idea", but I'm still >> waiting to hear any details on why. > > I understand your motivations in proposing them, but to my mind it goes > against the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 9:35 AM Mark Randall wrote: > On 07/02/2022 01:27, Craig Francis wrote: > > I know one person simply said this was a "terribl > idea", but I'm still > > waiting to hear any details on why. > > The changes you propose are not something that I am comfortable with > either. >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 07/02/2022 01:27, Craig Francis wrote: I know one person simply said this was a "terribl > idea", but I'm still waiting to hear any details on why. The changes you propose are not something that I am comfortable with either. I understand your motivations in proposing them, but to my mind

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 at 23:17, Craig Francis wrote: > Draft RFC: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/allow_null > I know, I'm a glutton for punishment, but I've started writing a patch for this: https://github.com/craigfrancis/php-src/compare/master...allow-null It does not affect any Fatal Error

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 14:22, Andreas Leathley wrote: > I don't think the current deprecation notices are a real hindrance in > upgrading to a newer PHP version. Nice, but I suspect your code doesen't exactly represents most code :-) And while these may be "small adaptions", I work with some

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 at 13:41, Christoph M. Becker wrote: > [...] > And then it's totally unclear to me how this is supposed to affect > strict_types=1. > [...] > If the BC break is deemed to serious (maybe for string parameters only), > we better consider to undeprecate this, although that would

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Thanks Allen, Before I start, the RFC is still a Draft, and I'm trying to find a solution... I'll also use a bit of sarcasm, just to be entertaining/funny, so it's not a page of boring technical stuff, I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong, and I genuinely appreciate your views on this. On

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 02.01.22 00:17, Craig Francis wrote: I've spent a few days coming up with a short(ish) list of parameters that are likely to receive `NULL`. The focus is on making it easier for developers to upgrade to newer versions of PHP. I'm thinking of the typical developer, probably using WordPress,

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 02.01.2022 at 00:17, Craig Francis wrote: > On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 at 15:19, Sara Golemon wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 8:48 AM Craig Francis >> wrote: >> >>> Is there any value in me proposing an RFC to update *some* internal >>> functions so they can accept NULL? >> >> I'm not hard

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On 01/01/2022 23:17, Craig Francis wrote: I've spent a few days coming up with a short(ish) list of parameters that are likely to receive `NULL`. The focus is on making it easier for developers to upgrade to newer versions of PHP. I'm thinking of the typical developer, probably using WordPress,

[PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 at 15:19, Sara Golemon wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 8:48 AM Craig Francis > wrote: > >> Is there any value in me proposing an RFC to update *some* internal >> functions so they can accept NULL? >> > > I'm not hard against this idea. The interpretation of null in these >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021, 10:20 PM Sara Golemon wrote: I'm not hard against this idea. The interpretation of null in these > contexts as being equivalent to empty string isn't unreasonable. I guess > the only objection I could have would be an academic one and I can't really > defend that. So

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 at 15:19, Sara Golemon wrote: > I'm not hard against this idea. The interpretation of null in these > contexts as being equivalent to empty string isn't unreasonable. I guess > the only objection I could have would be an academic one and I can't really > defend that. So

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

Am 02.12.2021 um 16:19 schrieb Sara Golemon : > I would say that such applications should consider unifying their own > types. $a = $_GET['q'] ?? ''; Is there a place in the application where > empty string and null would have been distinct? i.e. Is a search for > nothing different from not

Re: [PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 8:48 AM Craig Francis wrote: > On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 16:47, Sara Golemon wrote: > > > I'm not saying send PRs to fix them all... Let's make PHP better, > > together. > > > > On a similar theme, trying to avoid too much work for developers upgrading > to later versions

[PHP-DEV] Allowing NULL for some internal functions

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 16:47, Sara Golemon wrote: > I'm not saying send PRs to fix them all... Let's make PHP better, > together. On a similar theme, trying to avoid too much work for developers upgrading to later versions of PHP. Is there any value in me proposing an RFC to update *some*