Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Lester Caine
Steph Fox wrote: Have we reached a consensus? Or is this still a little open ended? Scott's trying to pull together a developer-only meeting so we can look at what's left in a bit more depth. Once we've done this it'll probably come back to the list (should, IMHO). Timezones, timezones!

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Lester Caine
Steph Fox wrote: What we're hearing here about European keyboard layouts is useful info because it gives some idea of how popular/unpopular the backslash would be as a solution and why, but it shouldn't carry as much weight as the accessibility argument against the triple colon. One is liveable

RE: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Catalin Zamfir Alexandru | KIT Software CAZ
> > Clarity and simplicity are the two chief requisites. We're all fully > aware > of that, from Engine developer to n00b, so there's really no point in > discussing it to death on-list at this stage. > Yep. I agree. I'm already tired of watching this thread. Let them agree on an implementation

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Steph Fox
Hi, Guys, this is like junior school in here. Yep. Let me put some things in perspective: No, let me. Greg worked his butt off the entire weekend looking for the flaws in *all* the options available to us, including a couple of new ones that never even reached the list before he rejected

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Arvids Godjuks
2008/10/21 Stan Vassilev | FM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi, > > Guys, this is like junior school in here. > > Let me put some things in perspective: > > 1) The location of backslash on foreign keyboard is entirely irrelevant for > the choice of namespace separator. Why? You already use this *every d

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Vesselin Kenashkov
The N word discussion looks neverending... solution #3 from Gregory solves the ambiguity so I dont see how it will "create such nightmares in big projects with ambigous identifiers". I'm using the :: operator for the last 6 months and I had no such issues even without the fix (I'm not naming classe

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Stan Vassilev | FM
Hi, Guys, this is like junior school in here. Let me put some things in perspective: 1) The location of backslash on foreign keyboard is entirely irrelevant for the choice of namespace separator. Why? You already use this *every day* to escape characters in your strings and regular expressio

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-21 Thread Derick Rethans
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Philipp Wagner wrote: > Steph Fox wrote: > > Hi Lester, > > > >> And there are no problems with those on foreign keyboards? > > > > If there are, those foreign keyboards are unable to offer either escaped > > chars or MS paths... which seems highly unlikely. > > Well, on Ge

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Ryan Panning
Ilia Alshanetsky wrote: Another issue I just came across caused by :: being used for both namespaces and classes is the fact when it comes to validation such as the one I've just put it for constant names, its impossible to determine if the prefix is a namespace or a class name. So, I definitel

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Ilia Alshanetsky
Another issue I just came across caused by :: being used for both namespaces and classes is the fact when it comes to validation such as the one I've just put it for constant names, its impossible to determine if the prefix is a namespace or a class name. So, I definitely think we should ch

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Steph Fox
I wasn't planning to open the ns separator discussion again. In fact I think we'd all much rather avoid it completely... As info, in a Spanish keyboard it's the same, Alt Gr+{the key to the left of the 1}. ... but thanks for that part of your input (and same to Ólafur). - Steph -- PHP Inte

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Federico Lebron
Ólafur Waage wrote: On an icelandic keyboard "\" is AltGr + (key right of 0 in the top row), just an fyi if you guys wanted to know. For my two cents. "\" looks like its not supposed to be there. Is there no other combination of two simbols that would work? Like >> or +> or ** or .. or somethin

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Ólafur Waage
On an icelandic keyboard "\" is AltGr + (key right of 0 in the top row), just an fyi if you guys wanted to know. For my two cents. "\" looks like its not supposed to be there. Is there no other combination of two simbols that would work? Like >> or +> or ** or .. or something in that fashion ? Ó

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Steph Fox
The "german keyboard" issue isn't really one. {}[] are in the same "class" of characters (alt-Gr + number-row). So, as a programmer, you either have to live with that anyway because there's no avoiding {}[], or you switch to the us layout while programming (which quite a few people do). Also

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Stefan Walk
On Monday 20 October 2008 20:42:36 Steph Fox wrote: > > Well, on German keyboards, it's accessible but only by using ALTGR+?, > > which is not really a comfortable combination. > > Useful to know, thanks Philipp. > > Any more localized keyboard issues we should know about? Anyone? > > - Steph The

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Steph Fox
Well, on German keyboards, it's accessible but only by using ALTGR+?, which is not really a comfortable combination. Useful to know, thanks Philipp. Any more localized keyboard issues we should know about? Anyone? - Steph -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe,

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-20 Thread Philipp Wagner
Hi, Steph Fox wrote: > Hi Lester, > >> And there are no problems with those on foreign keyboards? > > If there are, those foreign keyboards are unable to offer either escaped > chars or MS paths... which seems highly unlikely. Well, on German keyboards, it's accessible but only by using ALTGR+?

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-19 Thread Steph Fox
Hi Lester, And there are no problems with those on foreign keyboards? If there are, those foreign keyboards are unable to offer either escaped chars or MS paths... which seems highly unlikely. But do I still understand that there is an alternative method that was not part of this last roun

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-19 Thread Marcus Boerger
Hello David, Sunday, October 19, 2008, 1:02:21 PM, you wrote: >>> shift+;(x3) vs \ >> > Ok I'll try to make a very neutral comment. For the moment most are > still using an english keyboard (no matter which english in this case > and I'd actually be interested in knowing numbers for a fact

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-19 Thread David Coallier
>>> >> shift+;(x3) vs \ > Ok I'll try to make a very neutral comment. For the moment most are still using an english keyboard (no matter which english in this case and I'd actually be interested in knowing numbers for a fact if anyone's got something) and ergonomically speaking, ::: is much easier

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-19 Thread Lester Caine
Nathan Rixham wrote: Greg was so kind to give me part of his awesome upcoming Pyrus code. He actually has it running with both ':::' and '\' as namespace separators. So I thought I'd help out a tiny tiny bit by giving you all the choice of having a look at actual working code: shift+;(x3) vs

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Steph Fox
Greg was so kind to give me part of his awesome upcoming Pyrus code. He actually has it running with both ':::' and '\' as namespace separators. So I thought I'd help out a tiny tiny bit by giving you all the choice of having a look at actual working code: http://php.net/~helly/triplecolon.html

RE: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Catalin Zamfir Alexandru | KIT Software CAZ
Quicker shift + ; x 3 than finding that freakin backslash on my HP 530 notebook. > -Original Message- > From: Nathan Rixham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 2:52 AM > To: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Nathan Rixham
Marcus Boerger wrote: Hello all, Greg was so kind to give me part of his awesome upcoming Pyrus code. He actually has it running with both ':::' and '\' as namespace separators. So I thought I'd help out a tiny tiny bit by giving you all the choice of having a look at actual working code: htt

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Nathan Rixham
Marcus Boerger wrote: Hello all, Greg was so kind to give me part of his awesome upcoming Pyrus code. He actually has it running with both ':::' and '\' as namespace separators. So I thought I'd help out a tiny tiny bit by giving you all the choice of having a look at actual working code: htt

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Marcus Boerger
Hello all, Greg was so kind to give me part of his awesome upcoming Pyrus code. He actually has it running with both ':::' and '\' as namespace separators. So I thought I'd help out a tiny tiny bit by giving you all the choice of having a look at actual working code: http://php.net/~helly/tripl

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-18 Thread Marcus Boerger
Hello William, Friday, October 17, 2008, 7:57:53 PM, you wrote: > Marcel Esser wrote: >> Using ::: as a namespace seperator would be great. > A general rule of telephony dialing and other data input, three of > the same character will too often be entered or recognized as two > or four character

Re: [PHP-DEV] Namespace issues

2008-10-17 Thread William A. Rowe, Jr.
Marcel Esser wrote: > Using ::: as a namespace seperator would be great. A general rule of telephony dialing and other data input, three of the same character will too often be entered or recognized as two or four characters due to user or mechanical error. That's why when you see mnemonic phone

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-10-01 Thread Gregory Beaver
Vesselin Kenashkov wrote: > I'm -1 for "removing constants and functions from the namespaces". As I > wrote already in another thread, is it possible to have a fatal error thrown > when the engine detects an ambiguity situation? Are there any logical (i > mean from OOP point of view) or internals (

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-10-01 Thread Vesselin Kenashkov
I'm -1 for "removing constants and functions from the namespaces". As I wrote already in another thread, is it possible to have a fatal error thrown when the engine detects an ambiguity situation? Are there any logical (i mean from OOP point of view) or internals (performance and so on) problems wi

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-29 Thread Daniel Convissor
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:47:30AM +0400, Dmitry Stogov wrote: > Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > > > 3. Functions will not be allowed inside namespaces. We arrived to > > conclusion that they are much more trouble than they're worth, and > > summarily we would be better off without them. Most of the

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-26 Thread Johannes Schlüter
Hi, On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 12:45 -0700, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > 1. Allow braces for namespaces. So, the syntax for namespaces will be: > a) namespace foo; > should be first (non-comment) statement in the file, namespace extends > to the end of the file or next namespace declaration. > b) names

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-26 Thread Nathan Rixham
Arvids Godjuks wrote: 2008/9/22 Stanislav Malyshev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi! 3. Functions will not be allowed inside namespaces. We arrived to conclusion that they are much more trouble than they're worth, and summarily we would be better off without them. Most of the functionality could be easi

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-25 Thread Arvids Godjuks
2008/9/22 Stanislav Malyshev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Hi! > > 3. Functions will not be allowed inside namespaces. We arrived to > conclusion that they are much more trouble than they're worth, and summarily > we would be better off without them. Most of the functionality could be > easily achieved us

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-25 Thread Larry Garfield
On Thursday 25 September 2008 9:08:27 am Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > > No, namespaces for functions can most certainly *not* be emulated > > with either > > variable functions or static methods. Dropping namespace support for > > functions makes namespaces mostly useless for anyone who is not 100%

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-25 Thread Stanislav Malyshev
Hi! Right, Stas, did you also discuss removal of constants? Seems logical as the really the same arguments apply. IMO constants do not produce that much trouble, since they are not as extensively used than methods and functions. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-25 Thread Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 23.09.2008, at 09:47, Dmitry Stogov wrote: Stanislav Malyshev wrote: Hi! On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: 1. Allow braces for

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-25 Thread Lukas Kahwe Smith
On 23.09.2008, at 05:39, Larry Garfield wrote: "Most of the functionality could be easily achieved using static class methods". As someone who uses both functions and classes with equal comfort, I have to say "GAH, NO NO NO!" to that statement. Classes as pseudo- namespaces are fundamental

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-24 Thread Stan Vassilev | FM
Hi, 1. and 2. are great. I'm happy to see this done. But for 3. I think that's throwing the baby with the bathwater. Since now global classes inside namespaces will need the "use ::Foo;" or "::Foo...", I hope you can give a fresh look at my original idea that both functions and classes requi

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-24 Thread David Zülke
Am 22.09.2008 um 21:45 schrieb Stanislav Malyshev: On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: 1. Allow braces for namespaces. So, the syntax

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-23 Thread Andrew Mason
Sounds fantastic to me. Not a fan of the {} namespaces but each to their own. On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Stanislav Malyshev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi! > > On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about > what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-23 Thread Stanislav Malyshev
Hi! To clarify, with syntax B you can do multiple namespaces in one file? I have no objection then. Yes. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.zend.com/ (408)253-8829 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To u

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-23 Thread Lars Strojny
Hi Stas, Am Montag, den 22.09.2008, 12:45 -0700 schrieb Stanislav Malyshev: [...] > On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about > what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following > conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: Thanks for th

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-23 Thread Derick Rethans
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk > about what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the > following conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: > > 1. Allow braces for namespaces. > 2. Simpli

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-23 Thread Dmitry Stogov
Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about > what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following > conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: > > 1. Allow braces for namespaces. So, the syntax for namespac

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-22 Thread Lester Caine
Stanislav Malyshev wrote: Hi! On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: . 3. Functions will not be allowed inside namespaces. We arrived

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-22 Thread Larry Garfield
On Monday 22 September 2008 2:45:51 pm Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > Hi! > > On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about > what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following > conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: > > 1. Allow braces for na

Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace issues

2008-09-22 Thread Jochem Maas
Stanislav Malyshev schreef: Hi! On the ZendCon, we (Marcus, Elizabeth, Andi and myself) had a talk about what we'd like to do with namespaces, and we arrived at the following conclusions, which we propose to implement in 5.3: 1. Allow braces for namespaces. So, the syntax for namespaces will