Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog
I have fixed up a few more things in the crash recovery system such as recordings. Now it won't wait until after the recording completes to log the action. ie. If Jokosher crashes while recording, everything recorded up to that point will still be recovered. I have put in a message area to prompt for recovery. I would just like to see if anyone has comments on the message presented to users: http://laszlopandy.com/files/jokosher-recovery-pane.png Also it is perfectly fine if the user ignores the dialog and doesn't click close. Once they start working on the project and moving events/instruments, etc the message area will disappear on its own (since we can't recover a project after its been changed without destroying the users work). So this feature is ready to be merged. Any comments? Laszlo 2009/2/9 Stuart Langridge s...@kryogenix.org: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:53 AM, Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com wrote: Undo history has always persisted over saving. I believe infinite undo history was one of the requirements in the original jonoedit spec[1]. doh, sorry, not sure why I wrote saving, 'cos I already knew that (wrote the spec with Jono, remember :)) And yes, undo *does* persist over crashing simply because when you replay the recovery log, all the actions still register themselves with the undo manager. There is one difference which relates to atomic undo actions however. Currently if you add 5 instruments at once, and then hit undo, all 5 will disappear because this is an atomic action. But if you add 5 instruments, and then crash, after you recover you will have to hit undo 5 times to remove all instruments. Atomic actions don't remain atomic over crashes, but I will probably figure out a way to solve this in the future (likely not for this release though). Excellent! I admit that non-atomic stuff is inconvenient, but it's a minor inconvenience by comparison with actually having all this working... sil -- New Year's Day -- everything is in blossom! I feel about average. -- Kobayashi Issa ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog
I would like to point out that current wording of dialog is somehow confusing. Question in embedded dialog asks about current project, but user sees project is already opened. What gets recovered then? Usually it means lost recording, editing, etc. It could be described work done before last save or something like that. Otherwise - nice feature, keep rockin Laszlo! Cheers, Peter. 2009/2/15 Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com: I have fixed up a few more things in the crash recovery system such as recordings. Now it won't wait until after the recording completes to log the action. ie. If Jokosher crashes while recording, everything recorded up to that point will still be recovered. I have put in a message area to prompt for recovery. I would just like to see if anyone has comments on the message presented to users: http://laszlopandy.com/files/jokosher-recovery-pane.png Also it is perfectly fine if the user ignores the dialog and doesn't click close. Once they start working on the project and moving events/instruments, etc the message area will disappear on its own (since we can't recover a project after its been changed without destroying the users work). So this feature is ready to be merged. Any comments? Laszlo ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog
Undo history has always persisted over saving. I believe infinite undo history was one of the requirements in the original jonoedit spec[1]. And yes, undo *does* persist over crashing simply because when you replay the recovery log, all the actions still register themselves with the undo manager. There is one difference which relates to atomic undo actions however. Currently if you add 5 instruments at once, and then hit undo, all 5 will disappear because this is an atomic action. But if you add 5 instruments, and then crash, after you recover you will have to hit undo 5 times to remove all instruments. Atomic actions don't remain atomic over crashes, but I will probably figure out a way to solve this in the future (likely not for this release though). Laszlo [1] http://wiki.lugradio.org/index.php/JonoEdit On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 01:31 +, Stuart Langridge wrote: This is done by writing each action performed to a log on disk immediately after it is completed. Wicked. :) Does this mean that the undo history persists over crashing and saving? sil ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog (jokosher-devel-list Digest, Vol 28, Issue 3)
2008/12/23 Tom Halligan tom.halli...@gmail.com: Hi Lazlo, I'm with you on the 'too much text' front - but I believe that until Jokosher is mostly stable, recovery options should be available in an obvious fashion. I would suggest that 'display recovery options on startup' is an optional feature, with a default of 'on'. In the recovery dialog itself there should be a toggle option to 'Don't automatically show this dialog after a crash again.'. I usually shy away from creating a new option for each new feature, but we already have this dont show this again on startup for the welcome dialog. Could we incorporate the list of recoverable projects into the welcome dialog somehow? We already have a list of recent projects there. There should also be a menu link to open the recovery dialog at whatever time the user wants. How would this be different than the recent projects list in the file menu? To help the user remember which ones crashes we could possibly have an icon next to each one which indicates it was not saved properly. But I don't think of it as an entirely separate thing. I don't see as much difference between opening a project, and opening a more recent backup of the project instead. I think the above set-up would be the most user-friendly and flexible. I get annoyed with the crash recovery business for pretty much every program which utilises it, but I don't want to just get rid of it completely. It'd be far, far better for me to just be able to click 'Try to recover crashed projects' or something as and when I choose, rather than having the recovery tool hijack the software on startup and force me to make a decision there and then. If crashed projects aren't automatically cleaned up (ie: stored in a temp folder), then there should be no real reason why I can't choose when to recover projects for myself. I think that if we store all backups permanently in the temp folder most users will not clean it out (and we shouldn't expect them to). Having many projects sitting around in this folder will make th dialog showing all the recoverable projects less useful, when they really only care about the more recent one. If you saw in the screen shot, they only way to identify backups is by their timestamp, which quickly gets confusing. I would prefer to store the backup with the original project file and ask the user when they open that particular project: Do you want to restore? If they select no, we delete the backup. If they select yes we open the project and they can use save as from the menu to save this copy somewhere else. Although deleting their backup data when they select no isn't too good (we should provide a way to get it back if they do this by accident), I think this is better than saving all the backups permanently. Thoughts? Laszlo Tom 2008/12/22 jokosher-devel-list-requ...@gnome.org Send jokosher-devel-list mailing list submissions to jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to jokosher-devel-list-requ...@gnome.org You can reach the person managing the list at jokosher-devel-list-ow...@gnome.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of jokosher-devel-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. Crash recovery dialog (Laszlo Pandy) -- Forwarded message -- From: Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com To: Jokosher gnome jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:12:33 -0500 Subject: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog Hopefully everyone has tried out, or at least had a chance to see the crash recovery feature we put into 0.10. The feature automatically saves any open Jokosher projects every few minutes. On startup, Jokosher checks to see if there are any projects saved in ~/.jokosher/backups, and displays a dialog if there are: http://blog.mikeasoft.com/2008/08/10/improved-crash-protection-for-jokosher/ Here are my thoughts about this dialog: a) There is too much text at the top. b) It is designed to be able to show multiple projects that can be recovered. This is only the case if you crash Jokosher multiple times in and decline to recover each time, or you have multiple instances of Jokosher open and your system crashes. I am not sure these are the most common cases. My question is, is it best to prompt the user to restore any of the crashed projects? The other option is to not have a dialog at all but prompt for restore when the user opens that particular project. This is the way Word and OpenOffice work. They don't have a single place to keep track of all the recoverable files, but when you open a file it checks for filename~ or filename.bak and checks if it can be recovered. The reason I am putting this on the mailing list is because I require discussion
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog (jokosher-devel-list Digest, Vol 28, Issue 3)
Hi Lazlo, I'm with you on the 'too much text' front - but I believe that until Jokosher is mostly stable, recovery options should be available in an obvious fashion. I would suggest that 'display recovery options on startup' is an optional feature, with a default of 'on'. In the recovery dialog itself there should be a toggle option to 'Don't automatically show this dialog after a crash again.'. There should also be a menu link to open the recovery dialog at whatever time the user wants. I think the above set-up would be the most user-friendly and flexible. I get annoyed with the crash recovery business for pretty much every program which utilises it, but I don't want to just get rid of it completely. It'd be far, far better for me to just be able to click 'Try to recover crashed projects' or something as and when I choose, rather than having the recovery tool hijack the software on startup and force me to make a decision there and then. If crashed projects aren't automatically cleaned up (ie: stored in a temp folder), then there should be no real reason why I can't choose when to recover projects for myself. Tom 2008/12/22 jokosher-devel-list-requ...@gnome.org Send jokosher-devel-list mailing list submissions to jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to jokosher-devel-list-requ...@gnome.org You can reach the person managing the list at jokosher-devel-list-ow...@gnome.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of jokosher-devel-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. Crash recovery dialog (Laszlo Pandy) -- Forwarded message -- From: Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com To: Jokosher gnome jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:12:33 -0500 Subject: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog Hopefully everyone has tried out, or at least had a chance to see the crash recovery feature we put into 0.10. The feature automatically saves any open Jokosher projects every few minutes. On startup, Jokosher checks to see if there are any projects saved in ~/.jokosher/backups, and displays a dialog if there are: http://blog.mikeasoft.com/2008/08/10/improved-crash-protection-for-jokosher/ Here are my thoughts about this dialog: a) There is too much text at the top. b) It is designed to be able to show multiple projects that can be recovered. This is only the case if you crash Jokosher multiple times in and decline to recover each time, or you have multiple instances of Jokosher open and your system crashes. I am not sure these are the most common cases. My question is, is it best to prompt the user to restore any of the crashed projects? The other option is to not have a dialog at all but prompt for restore when the user opens that particular project. This is the way Word and OpenOffice work. They don't have a single place to keep track of all the recoverable files, but when you open a file it checks for filename~ or filename.bak and checks if it can be recovered. The reason I am putting this on the mailing list is because I require discussion on this issue. *Please respond* and at least tell me if have or will ever run multiple Jokosher instances at once, even if you don't have any other opinions. I would like to know if restoring multiple projects is a common use case, and would like to hear any other insights people have. I hope this mail doesn't have the opposite-bikeshed problem many of the previous ones did where no one wants to give any opinions. Thanks for everyone's help on this. Laszlo ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog
2008/12/21 Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com: Hopefully everyone has tried out, or at least had a chance to see the crash recovery feature we put into 0.10. The feature automatically saves any open Jokosher projects every few minutes. My question is, is it best to prompt the user to restore any of the crashed projects? The other option is to not have a dialog at all but prompt for restore when the user opens that particular project. This is the way Word and OpenOffice work. They don't have a single place to keep track of all the recoverable files, but when you open a file it checks for filename~ or filename.bak and checks if it can be recovered. The reason I am putting this on the mailing list is because I require discussion on this issue. *Please respond* and at least tell me if have or will ever run multiple Jokosher instances at once, even if you don't have any other opinions. I would like to know if restoring multiple projects is a common use case, and would like to hear any other insights people have. I think checking for crash recovery on a per project basis would be better. Jokosher works in terms of projects. This has always been an important concept (working with projects rather than working with Jokosher), and trying to recover all crashed projects at once breaks this model. We already have a folder per project, so why not store recover info there and only check for recovery when that project is opened? Even if I ran multiple instances of Jokosher and had them all crash, I'd still recover each project one at a time. Just my 2 cents. -- Jeff Ratliff (Gomer_X) ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
Re: [jokosher-devel] Crash recovery dialog
2008/12/22 Jeff Ratliff jef...@gmail.com: 2008/12/21 Laszlo Pandy laszl...@gmail.com: Hopefully everyone has tried out, or at least had a chance to see the crash recovery feature we put into 0.10. The feature automatically saves any open Jokosher projects every few minutes. My question is, is it best to prompt the user to restore any of the crashed projects? The other option is to not have a dialog at all but prompt for restore when the user opens that particular project. This is the way Word and OpenOffice work. They don't have a single place to keep track of all the recoverable files, but when you open a file it checks for filename~ or filename.bak and checks if it can be recovered. The reason I am putting this on the mailing list is because I require discussion on this issue. *Please respond* and at least tell me if have or will ever run multiple Jokosher instances at once, even if you don't have any other opinions. I would like to know if restoring multiple projects is a common use case, and would like to hear any other insights people have. I think checking for crash recovery on a per project basis would be better. Jokosher works in terms of projects. This has always been an important concept (working with projects rather than working with Jokosher), and trying to recover all crashed projects at once breaks this model. Very good point. We already have a folder per project, so why not store recover info there and only check for recovery when that project is opened? Even if I ran multiple instances of Jokosher and had them all crash, I'd still recover each project one at a time. Yes this does simplify the the implementation. There can be race conditions if multiple processes are creating files in the same folder. You are right, even if multiple projects crash, you still have to restart Jokosher multiple times and open each one since we don't have a full session recovery like firefox (how this would work with multiple processes is unclear too). Thanks, the best way to implement this is becoming pretty clear now. Laszlo Just my 2 cents. -- Jeff Ratliff (Gomer_X) ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list ___ jokosher-devel-list mailing list jokosher-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/jokosher-devel-list
