Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
--- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ --- (Updated Nov. 7, 2016, 2:47 p.m.) Status -- This change has been discarded. Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. Bugs: 357747 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 Repository: kconfig Description --- This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This shortcut was set back in 2001. Reasons for removing it: * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already resolve this conflict on their own. Credits to Jan for the investigation: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 Diffs - src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ Testing --- Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. Thanks, Elvis Angelaccio
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 30, 2016, 10:27 a.m., David Faure wrote: > > Right. We have Shift+Del as an alternate shortcut for cut because when I > > switched from Windows to Linux (last millenium!), I had taken the habit to > > use Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert for copy/cut/paste (these are > > certainly more logical than Ctrl+C/X/V...). > > > > Indeed this shortcut doesn't work for file managers, who have to get rid of > > it. But the majority of apps are not file managers, so the current > > situation seems fine to me (file managers remove the shortcut, everyone > > else gets it). => I vote for discard. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > What would be your shortcut of choice for permanently deleting files? > Meta + Delete? > or just nothing and force the user to clear the trash to permanently > delete files? > > David Faure wrote: > IMHO permanent deletion is Shift+Delete, in filemanagers -- the two > alternatives you offer seem extremely bad to me ;) > > Permanent deletion of emails is Shift+Delete too (and there cut isn't > supported), so that's consistent. > > Even while I was using Shift+Delete as my preferred shortcut for cut (bad > laptop keyboards forced me to switch away from that), it never bothered me > that it would delete and not cut in filemanagers. Maybe because I never used > cut very much in filemanagers, I admit. > I suppose this forces one to learn Ctrl+X for cutting in dolphin. > > All this being said, I can very well imagine that not many people use > Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert... I don't have a strong case if I'm > not using that myself anymore. It just seems harmless to support this in apps > where it doesn't conflict with anything else, and to give priority to other > shortcuts in apps where they do conflict (i.e. permanent deletion with an > easy shortcut has priority over the > less-commonly-used-alternate-shortcut-for-cut). My suggestion at https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129299/ - Albert --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100392 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 30, 2016, 10:27 a.m., David Faure wrote: > > Right. We have Shift+Del as an alternate shortcut for cut because when I > > switched from Windows to Linux (last millenium!), I had taken the habit to > > use Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert for copy/cut/paste (these are > > certainly more logical than Ctrl+C/X/V...). > > > > Indeed this shortcut doesn't work for file managers, who have to get rid of > > it. But the majority of apps are not file managers, so the current > > situation seems fine to me (file managers remove the shortcut, everyone > > else gets it). => I vote for discard. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > What would be your shortcut of choice for permanently deleting files? > Meta + Delete? > or just nothing and force the user to clear the trash to permanently > delete files? IMHO permanent deletion is Shift+Delete, in filemanagers -- the two alternatives you offer seem extremely bad to me ;) Permanent deletion of emails is Shift+Delete too (and there cut isn't supported), so that's consistent. Even while I was using Shift+Delete as my preferred shortcut for cut (bad laptop keyboards forced me to switch away from that), it never bothered me that it would delete and not cut in filemanagers. Maybe because I never used cut very much in filemanagers, I admit. I suppose this forces one to learn Ctrl+X for cutting in dolphin. All this being said, I can very well imagine that not many people use Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert... I don't have a strong case if I'm not using that myself anymore. It just seems harmless to support this in apps where it doesn't conflict with anything else, and to give priority to other shortcuts in apps where they do conflict (i.e. permanent deletion with an easy shortcut has priority over the less-commonly-used-alternate-shortcut-for-cut). - David --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100392 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On okt 30, 2016, 10:27 a.m., David Faure wrote: > > Right. We have Shift+Del as an alternate shortcut for cut because when I > > switched from Windows to Linux (last millenium!), I had taken the habit to > > use Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert for copy/cut/paste (these are > > certainly more logical than Ctrl+C/X/V...). > > > > Indeed this shortcut doesn't work for file managers, who have to get rid of > > it. But the majority of apps are not file managers, so the current > > situation seems fine to me (file managers remove the shortcut, everyone > > else gets it). => I vote for discard. What would be your shortcut of choice for permanently deleting files? Meta + Delete? or just nothing and force the user to clear the trash to permanently delete files? - Mark --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100392 --- On okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
--- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100392 --- Right. We have Shift+Del as an alternate shortcut for cut because when I switched from Windows to Linux (last millenium!), I had taken the habit to use Ctrl+Insert, Shift+Del, and Shift+Insert for copy/cut/paste (these are certainly more logical than Ctrl+C/X/V...). Indeed this shortcut doesn't work for file managers, who have to get rid of it. But the majority of apps are not file managers, so the current situation seems fine to me (file managers remove the shortcut, everyone else gets it). => I vote for discard. - David Faure On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On okt 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org > > Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. > It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the > forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > Hi Albert, > > You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think > that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad. > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut shortcut. That is not right! > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Okt. 24, 2016, 11 vorm., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org > > Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. > It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the > forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > Hi Albert, > > You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think > that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad. > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut shortcut. That is not right! > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 7 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org > > Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. > It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the > forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > Hi Albert, > > You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think > that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad. > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut shortcut. That is not right! > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org > > Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. > It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the > forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > Hi Albert, > > You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think > that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad. > > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia > says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently > delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as > cut shortcut. That is not right! > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says > is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete > on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut > shortcut. That is not right! You just
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On okt 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org > > Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. > It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the > forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. Hi Albert, You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad. Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut shortcut. That is not right! - Mark --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Okt. 24, 2016, 11 vorm., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? > > Luigi Toscano wrote: > IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or > woth some tool that does not require a google account. > > That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for > permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps > provide the same shortcut anyway. >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight. - Heiko --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Ott. 24, 2016, 1 p.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete > > I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more > do you want? IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or woth some tool that does not require a google account. That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps provide the same shortcut anyway. - Luigi --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Ott. 24, 2016, 12:47 p.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Ott. 24, 2016, 12:47 p.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > > Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent > delete I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more do you want? - Albert --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff:
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > Let's do a quick poll: > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a > file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With > your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash? - Albert --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Okt. 24, 2016, 11 vorm., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. > > Mark Gaiser wrote: > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user > deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the > trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. > Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the > delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly > remove the file. > > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is > permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key > combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. > > Just my 2ct. Let's do a quick poll: https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg - Heiko --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On okt 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) > > Albert Astals Cid wrote: > My suggestion is: > > * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default > * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default > > **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we > disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not > the user that set it on purpose) > > That should be *doable* hopefully. I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted. Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the delete key to "move to trash" and a +delete key to permanantly remove the file. Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something. Just my 2ct. - Mark --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep > shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. > 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently > delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and > app specific > 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive > functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to > unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use > shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. > > (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the > app defines its own behavior) My suggestion is: * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not the user that set it on purpose) That should be *doable* hopefully. - Albert --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Okt. 24, 2016, 11 vorm., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should > first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace > Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas > suggested? 1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut. 2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and app specific 2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like. (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the app defines its own behavior) - Heiko --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? > > Heiko Tietze wrote: > This question was asked last year on the mailing list > https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. > Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still > in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest > to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses > Shift+Del for permanently delete files. Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas suggested? - Elvis --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Okt. 24, 2016, 11 vorm., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" > > Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig > itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? This question was asked last year on the mailing list https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses Shift+Del for permanently delete files. - Heiko --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
> On Oct. 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote: > > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut > > the selection and store it in the clipboard" Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then? - Elvis --- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
Re: Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut
--- This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230 --- -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut the selection and store it in the clipboard" - Albert Astals Cid On Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote: > > --- > This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit: > https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/ > --- > > (Updated Oct. 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.) > > > Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson. > > > Bugs: 357747 > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747 > > > Repository: kconfig > > > Description > --- > > This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This > shortcut was set back in 2001. > > Reasons for removing it: > > * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete" > * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the > `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications. > * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already > resolve this conflict on their own. > > Credits to Jan for the investigation: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2 > > > Diffs > - > > src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 > > Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/ > > > Testing > --- > > Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected. > > > Thanks, > > Elvis Angelaccio > >
