Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Maciej Suminski]

Wayne,

After reading Andrzej's and Jean-Pierre's justifications, I understood
the reaction and agree it is too early for such change. Thanks for
reverting the patch, let's roll with v5!

Cheers,
Orson

On 02/24/2018 02:46 PM, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> Orson,
> 
> The problem is that users have been using zones in non-copper layers so
> the expectation is that they will be able to continue to use them.  I
> tested this and when you create a zone on a non-copper zone using the
> zone editor tool, it actually saves the object as a zone which is
> different from a filled polygon object as Andrzej pointed out.  I'm
> going to revert this patch for rc1.  We can discuss alternatives for the
> stable 5 release but we definitely should not be pulling the rug out
> from under users who have come to expect a certain behavior without some
> serious discussion.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 02/24/2018 02:42 AM, Maciej Suminski wrote:
>> Sorry for late answer, I will not have a reliable Internet connection
>> until Sunday evening. I removed the option to draw ZONE_CONTAINERs as
>> they are dedicated to copper layers. For graphical items there is
>> DRAWSEGMENT of POLYGON type. If you find it unacceptable, please
>> revert the commit. I am not going to insist to keep it that way, if it
>> is a reason to delay v5 release.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Orson
>>
>> On February 24, 2018 12:28:11 AM GMT+01:00, Wayne Stambaugh
>>  wrote:
>>
>>     Orson,
>>
>>     Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper
>> layers?
>>   The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there
>> was a
>>     reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
>>     this resolved.
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>>     Wayne
>>
>>     On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
>>
>>     Hello,
>>
>>     after this change:
>>    
>> https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b
>>
>>
>>
>>     I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
>>     Was that intentional?
>>
>>     Andrzej
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>> 
>>
>>     Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>
>>    
>> 
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Orson,

The problem is that users have been using zones in non-copper layers so 
the expectation is that they will be able to continue to use them.  I 
tested this and when you create a zone on a non-copper zone using the 
zone editor tool, it actually saves the object as a zone which is 
different from a filled polygon object as Andrzej pointed out.  I'm 
going to revert this patch for rc1.  We can discuss alternatives for the 
stable 5 release but we definitely should not be pulling the rug out 
from under users who have come to expect a certain behavior without some 
serious discussion.


Cheers,

Wayne

On 02/24/2018 02:42 AM, Maciej Suminski wrote:
Sorry for late answer, I will not have a reliable Internet connection 
until Sunday evening. I removed the option to draw ZONE_CONTAINERs as 
they are dedicated to copper layers. For graphical items there is 
DRAWSEGMENT of POLYGON type. If you find it unacceptable, please revert 
the commit. I am not going to insist to keep it that way, if it is a 
reason to delay v5 release.


Regards,
Orson

On February 24, 2018 12:28:11 AM GMT+01:00, Wayne Stambaugh 
 wrote:


Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:

Hello,

after this change:

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
Was that intentional?

Andrzej





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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[jp charras]

Le 24/02/2018 à 08:42, Maciej Suminski a écrit :
> Sorry for late answer, I will not have a reliable Internet connection until 
> Sunday evening. I
> removed the option to draw ZONE_CONTAINERs as they are dedicated to copper 
> layers. For graphical
> items there is DRAWSEGMENT of POLYGON type. If you find it unacceptable, 
> please revert the commit. I
> am not going to insist to keep it that way, if it is a reason to delay v5 
> release.
> 
> Regards,
> Orson
> 

There is an annoying thing:

In legacy mode, ZONE_CONTAINERs are used to draw a zone on non copper areas, 
and DRAWSEGMENT of
POLYGON type are not supported for creation/edition.

Removing ZONE_CONTAINERs on non copper areas now, before deprecating legacy 
mode, is going to create
a few issues.


> On February 24, 2018 12:28:11 AM GMT+01:00, Wayne Stambaugh 
>  wrote:
> 
> Orson,
> 
> Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
>  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
> reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
> this resolved.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> after this change:
> 
> https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b
> 
> 
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
> 
> Andrzej
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Maciej Suminski]

Sorry for late answer, I will not have a reliable Internet connection until 
Sunday evening. I removed the option to draw ZONE_CONTAINERs as they are 
dedicated to copper layers. For graphical items there is DRAWSEGMENT of POLYGON 
type. If you find it unacceptable, please revert the commit. I am not going to 
insist to keep it that way, if it is a reason to delay v5 release.

Regards,
Orson

On February 24, 2018 12:28:11 AM GMT+01:00, Wayne Stambaugh 
 wrote:
>Orson,
>
>Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper
>layers?
> The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
>reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
>this resolved.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Wayne
>
>On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> after this change:
>>
>https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b
>> 
>> 
>> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
>> Was that intentional?
>> 
>> Andrzej
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

 There are a number of missing features in the polygon tool that exist 
in the zone editor.  Adding corners is a large one.




Cutouts would be a big regression. I think gr_poly is a single polygon 
and cannot have cutouts?


Andrzej

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

A feature I would like to add someday to Kicad is hatched fill in zones, 
so you can make copper like this:

https://imgur.com/FaCvvwi
or silkscreen like this:
https://imgur.com/NuRkTKs
or maybe soldermask like this:
https://imgur.com/v3elnHL

This is one of the reasons I would like to keep zones on non copper layers.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 02:28, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:

On 02/23/2018 08:24 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:


 Does the polygon tool allow you to edit zones on non-copper layers 
or were zones on non-copper layers saved as polygons?  If the latter 
is the case then I'm guessing this change is not significant but if 
that is not the case then there could be some editing issues. 


Zones on non copper layers were saved as zones:

(zone (net 0) (net_name "") (layer F.Mask) (tstamp 0) (hatch edge 0.508)
 (connect_pads (clearance 0.25))
 (min_thickness 0.254)
 (fill yes (arc_segments 16) (thermal_gap 0.508) 
(thermal_bridge_width 0.508))

 ...
   )


While polygons are saved as gr_poly:

(gr_poly (pts (xy 161.19 92.85) (xy 161.19 98.63) (xy 168.14 98.63) 
(xy 168.14 93.32)) (layer F.Cu) (width 0.15))


Note that there are nice features in zones like corner smoothing, 
fill mode, priority, etc, which could be easily added to zones on non 
copper layers, while graphic polygons are simple objects and do not 
have these features.


Andrzej


OK, I'm going to wait to hear from Orson which will probably not 
happen until tomorrow morning.  I'm guessing pushing the branch and 
rc1 back a day isn't going to be a show stopper.


Cheers,

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

I have just found nice bug in 4.0.
If you first edit copper zone and set corner smoothing to chamfer, then 
you can make non copper zone with chamfered corners:

https://imgur.com/a/GsLn2

Andrzej



W dniu 2018-02-24 o 02:15, Seth Hillbrand pisze:
Playing with the tool some more, I can see that Andrzej is right.  
There are a number of missing features in the polygon tool that exist 
in the zone editor.  Adding corners is a large one.


If you have an existing non-copper zone, it seems you can keep it, 
change its layer, add cut-outs, etc.  Even duplicate to create a new 
one.  But you can't draw a brand new one.


-S

2018-02-23 17:07 GMT-08:00 Andrzej Wolski >:



Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only
fill in parts of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to
other items on the same layer) on a non-copper zone?


No, I didn't mean it was already possible.

Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline
appearance doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are
always shown filled, not with an outline)

Zones on paste layer shown in outline::
https://imgur.com/a/5g4cI

Andrzej




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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 02/23/2018 08:24 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:


 Does the polygon tool allow you to edit zones on non-copper layers or 
were zones on non-copper layers saved as polygons?  If the latter is 
the case then I'm guessing this change is not significant but if that 
is not the case then there could be some editing issues. 


Zones on non copper layers were saved as zones:

(zone (net 0) (net_name "") (layer F.Mask) (tstamp 0) (hatch edge 0.508)
     (connect_pads (clearance 0.25))
     (min_thickness 0.254)
     (fill yes (arc_segments 16) (thermal_gap 0.508) 
(thermal_bridge_width 0.508))

     ...
   )


While polygons are saved as gr_poly:

(gr_poly (pts (xy 161.19 92.85) (xy 161.19 98.63) (xy 168.14 98.63) (xy 
168.14 93.32)) (layer F.Cu) (width 0.15))


Note that there are nice features in zones like corner smoothing, fill 
mode, priority, etc, which could be easily added to zones on non copper 
layers, while graphic polygons are simple objects and do not have these 
features.


Andrzej


OK, I'm going to wait to hear from Orson which will probably not happen 
until tomorrow morning.  I'm guessing pushing the branch and rc1 back a 
day isn't going to be a show stopper.


Cheers,

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

 Does the polygon tool allow you to edit zones on non-copper layers or 
were zones on non-copper layers saved as polygons?  If the latter is 
the case then I'm guessing this change is not significant but if that 
is not the case then there could be some editing issues. 


Zones on non copper layers were saved as zones:

(zone (net 0) (net_name "") (layer F.Mask) (tstamp 0) (hatch edge 0.508)
    (connect_pads (clearance 0.25))
    (min_thickness 0.254)
    (fill yes (arc_segments 16) (thermal_gap 0.508) 
(thermal_bridge_width 0.508))

    ...
  )


While polygons are saved as gr_poly:

(gr_poly (pts (xy 161.19 92.85) (xy 161.19 98.63) (xy 168.14 98.63) (xy 
168.14 93.32)) (layer F.Cu) (width 0.15))


Note that there are nice features in zones like corner smoothing, fill 
mode, priority, etc, which could be easily added to zones on non copper 
layers, while graphic polygons are simple objects and do not have these 
features.


Andrzej

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Jon Evans]

OK, yeah it does look like some things are no longer possible, so it makes
sense to wait until Orson wakes up to this barrage of emails :)

On Feb 23, 2018 20:07, "Andrzej Wolski"  wrote:

>
> Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only fill in
>> parts of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to other items on the
>> same layer) on a non-copper zone?
>>
>
> No, I didn't mean it was already possible.
>
> Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline appearance
>> doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are always shown filled, not
>> with an outline)
>>
> Zones on paste layer shown in outline::
> https://imgur.com/a/5g4cI
>
> Andrzej
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Seth Hillbrand]

Playing with the tool some more, I can see that Andrzej is right.  There
are a number of missing features in the polygon tool that exist in the zone
editor.  Adding corners is a large one.

If you have an existing non-copper zone, it seems you can keep it, change
its layer, add cut-outs, etc.  Even duplicate to create a new one.  But you
can't draw a brand new one.

-S

2018-02-23 17:07 GMT-08:00 Andrzej Wolski :

>
> Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only fill in
>> parts of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to other items on the
>> same layer) on a non-copper zone?
>>
>
> No, I didn't mean it was already possible.
>
> Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline appearance
>> doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are always shown filled, not
>> with an outline)
>>
> Zones on paste layer shown in outline::
> https://imgur.com/a/5g4cI
>
> Andrzej
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only fill in 
parts of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to other items on 
the same layer) on a non-copper zone?


No, I didn't mean it was already possible.

Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline 
appearance doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are always 
shown filled, not with an outline)

Zones on paste layer shown in outline::
https://imgur.com/a/5g4cI

Andrzej

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

There definitely was a change in the commit that removed 
InvokeNonCopperZonesEditor() from the ZONE_CREATE_HELPER tool so I can 
see how this would be jarring for users that have been using that 
feature.  I'm going to wait until Orson responds to my original 
question.  If we are going to make a behavior change like this, I would 
like to understand why.  I see in the commit message that it states 
"Previously zone drawing tool was used to draw copper and graphical
polygons, but now there is a dedicated tool for that."  Does the polygon 
tool allow you to edit zones on non-copper layers or were zones on 
non-copper layers saved as polygons?  If the latter is the case then I'm 
guessing this change is not significant but if that is not the case then 
there could be some editing issues.


Wayen

On 02/23/2018 07:55 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:


But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size 
issue Andrzej mentioned.


But the you don't have them with rounded corners :)

For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness in 
having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be 
filled.  But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?




I didn't mean filling, but displaying in outline mode (hatched, fully 
hatched...)


Andrzej


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

I can edit existing zones on non copper layers, but I can't place new one.
What I mean is zones and polygons behave differently and I think they 
both should be there.

But maybe I do not fully understand the intentions.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 01:37, Wayne Stambaugh pisze:
I'm seeing this as well.  Andrzej, are you sure this is correct?  Can 
you not edit zones on non-copper layers any longer?


On 02/23/2018 07:26 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
I went back to an older version of master (back around September of 
last year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves 
like a copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like 
graphic polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how 
do you do it?


On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski 
mailto:awolski.ki...@gmail.com>> wrote:


    Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones
    and I think they both should be there.

    I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always 
solid.


    Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

    There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers
    layers, so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't
    be able to place new ones?

    Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is
    drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the
    same dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.

    Andrzej


    W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

    The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

    Andrzej, does this tool not work?

    -S

    2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>>:

    Orson,

    Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on
    non-copper layers?
     The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate
    there was a
    reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until
    we get
    this resolved.

    Thanks,

    Wayne

    On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > after this change:
    >
https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b

    >
    >
    > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
    > Was that intentional?
    >
    > Andrzej
    >
    >
    >
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size 
issue Andrzej mentioned.


But the you don't have them with rounded corners :)

For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness in 
having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be 
filled.  But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?




I didn't mean filling, but displaying in outline mode (hatched, fully 
hatched...)


Andrzej
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

This is what I'm trying to determine.  It sounds like this was a 
premature assessment on my part.  If this is the case, I will branch and 
tag rc1 now.


On 02/23/2018 07:49 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only fill in 
parts of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to other items on 
the same layer) on a non-copper zone?
I might be missing something, but from looking over the code (even back 
at 4.0 branch) I don't think this has ever been supported.
So, while this might be an interesting feature request, it's not a bug 
and shouldn't hold up the RC.


Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline 
appearance doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are always 
shown filled, not with an outline)


Are we actually missing any features we used to have, or is this all a 
matter of proper documentation about the new way to do things in v5?


-Jon

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Seth Hillbrand 
mailto:seth.hillbr...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I have a number of zones on non-copper layers in older designs. 
They used to have the attached dialog.


But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size
issue Andrzej mentioned.

For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness
in having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be
filled.  But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?

-S

2018-02-23 16:26 GMT-08:00 Jon Evans mailto:j...@craftyjon.com>>:

I went back to an older version of master (back around September
of last year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that
behaves like a copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they
behave like graphic polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so,
how do you do it?

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski
mailto:awolski.ki...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than
zones and I think they both should be there.

I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be
always solid.

Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

There are many designs which already have zones on non
coppers layers, so Kicad will have to support them anyway,
but users won't be able to place new ones?

Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon
outline is drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting
object will have the same dimensions, but polygon will be
10x10mm + outline width.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh
mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>>:

Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on
non-copper layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to
indicate there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on
rc1 until we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> after this change:
>

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


>
>
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
>
> Andrzej
>
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Seth,

So you can still edit files with zones without using the zone tool or 
does the polygon tool pop up for editing zones on non-copper layers?  I 
don't have any boards with zones on non-copper layers.  As long as they 
are still editable, then I don't see the problem.


As far filled versus unfilled polygons, wouldn't you just use a polyline 
for an unfilled polygon?


Wayne

On 02/23/2018 07:41 PM, Seth Hillbrand wrote:
I have a number of zones on non-copper layers in older designs.  They 
used to have the attached dialog.


But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size 
issue Andrzej mentioned.


For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness in 
having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be 
filled.  But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?


-S

2018-02-23 16:26 GMT-08:00 Jon Evans >:


I went back to an older version of master (back around September of
last year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that
behaves like a copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they
behave like graphic polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how
do you do it?

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski
mailto:awolski.ki...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than
zones and I think they both should be there.

I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always
solid.

Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers
layers, so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users
won't be able to place new ones?

Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon
outline is drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object
will have the same dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm +
outline width.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh
mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>>:

Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on
non-copper layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to
indicate there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1
until we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> after this change:
>

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


>
>
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
>
> Andrzej
>
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

What behavior do you mean?
In 4.0 and nightly from few days ago zones on non copper layers:
- have outline drawn like zones, not like graphic polygons (I mean 
difference in size)
- can be displayed in outline mode (hatched, fully hatched etc), 
polygons can't


Moreover, zones have tools like "create corner", "add cutout", "merge", 
while polygons do not.


Andrzej

W dniu 2018-02-24 o 01:26, Jon Evans pisze:
I went back to an older version of master (back around September of 
last year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves 
like a copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like 
graphic polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change? If so, how do 
you do it?


On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski 
mailto:awolski.ki...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones
and I think they both should be there.

I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.

Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers
layers, so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't
be able to place new ones?

Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline
is drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have
the same dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>>:

Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on
non-copper layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate
there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until
we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> after this change:
>

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


>
>
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
>
> Andrzej
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Jon Evans]

Was it ever possible to run the fill algorithm (meaning, only fill in parts
of a polygon outline, based on some clearance to other items on the same
layer) on a non-copper zone?
I might be missing something, but from looking over the code (even back at
4.0 branch) I don't think this has ever been supported.
So, while this might be an interesting feature request, it's not a bug and
shouldn't hold up the RC.

Seth, yes I see that dialog too in old builds, but the outline appearance
doesn't do anything (because non-copper zones are always shown filled, not
with an outline)

Are we actually missing any features we used to have, or is this all a
matter of proper documentation about the new way to do things in v5?

-Jon

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:41 PM, Seth Hillbrand 
wrote:

> I have a number of zones on non-copper layers in older designs.  They used
> to have the attached dialog.
>
> But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size
> issue Andrzej mentioned.
>
> For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness in
> having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be filled.
> But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?
>
> -S
>
> 2018-02-23 16:26 GMT-08:00 Jon Evans :
>
>> I went back to an older version of master (back around September of last
>> year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves like a
>> copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like graphic
>> polygons.
>> Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how do
>> you do it?
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones and I
>>> think they both should be there.
>>>
>>> I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.
>>>
>>> Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".
>>>
>>> There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers layers,
>>> so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't be able to place
>>> new ones?
>>>
>>> Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is
>>> drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the same
>>> dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.
>>>
>>> Andrzej
>>>
>>>
>>> W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:
>>>
>>> The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.
>>>
>>> Andrzej, does this tool not work?
>>>
>>> -S
>>>
>>> 2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>>>
 Orson,

 Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
 reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
 this resolved.

 Thanks,

 Wayne

 On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
 > Hello,
 >
 > after this change:
 > https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a0
 5de19293a8ce5a55432527b
 >
 >
 > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
 > Was that intentional?
 >
 > Andrzej
 >
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
 > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
 > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Seth Hillbrand]

I have a number of zones on non-copper layers in older designs.  They used
to have the attached dialog.

But setting the width of a graphical polygon to 0 removes the size
issue Andrzej mentioned.

For filling vs. non-filling, I don't personally see the usefulness in
having the fill algorithm run over a polygon that will always be filled.
But maybe there's a use-case I'm missing?

-S

2018-02-23 16:26 GMT-08:00 Jon Evans :

> I went back to an older version of master (back around September of last
> year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves like a
> copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like graphic
> polygons.
> Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how do
> you do it?
>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski 
> wrote:
>
>> Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones and I
>> think they both should be there.
>>
>> I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.
>>
>> Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".
>>
>> There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers layers, so
>> Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't be able to place
>> new ones?
>>
>> Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is
>> drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the same
>> dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.
>>
>> Andrzej
>>
>>
>> W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:
>>
>> The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.
>>
>> Andrzej, does this tool not work?
>>
>> -S
>>
>> 2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>>
>>> Orson,
>>>
>>> Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
>>>  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
>>> reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
>>> this resolved.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > after this change:
>>> > https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a0
>>> 5de19293a8ce5a55432527b
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
>>> > Was that intentional?
>>> >
>>> > Andrzej
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

I'm seeing this as well.  Andrzej, are you sure this is correct?  Can 
you not edit zones on non-copper layers any longer?


On 02/23/2018 07:26 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
I went back to an older version of master (back around September of last 
year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves like a 
copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like graphic 
polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how do 
you do it?


On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski > wrote:


Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones
and I think they both should be there.

I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.

Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers
layers, so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't
be able to place new ones?

Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is
drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the
same dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.

Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh mailto:stambau...@gmail.com>>:

Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on
non-copper layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate
there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until
we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> after this change:
>

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


>
>
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
>
> Andrzej
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Jon Evans]

I went back to an older version of master (back around September of last
year) and I can't make a zone on a non-copper layer that behaves like a
copper zone.  Even when using the zone tool, they behave like graphic
polygons.
Were you able to do this up until Orson's recent change?  If so, how do you
do it?

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Andrzej Wolski 
wrote:

> Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones and I
> think they both should be there.
>
> I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.
>
> Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".
>
> There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers layers, so
> Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't be able to place
> new ones?
>
> Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is
> drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the same
> dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.
>
> Andrzej
>
>
> W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:
>
> The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.
>
> Andrzej, does this tool not work?
>
> -S
>
> 2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>
>> Orson,
>>
>> Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
>>  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
>> reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
>> this resolved.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > after this change:
>> > https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a0
>> 5de19293a8ce5a55432527b
>> >
>> >
>> > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
>> > Was that intentional?
>> >
>> > Andrzej
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

Polygons do work, but they are different kind of object than zones and I 
think they both should be there.


I think zones suppose to flood, while polygons should be always solid.

Polygons do not currently have "do not show filled".

There are many designs which already have zones on non coppers layers, 
so Kicad will have to support them anyway, but users won't be able to 
place new ones?


Also note that there is difference in how zone vs polygon outline is 
drawn. When you draw 10x10mm zone, resulting object will have the same 
dimensions, but polygon will be 10x10mm + outline width.


Andrzej


W dniu 2018-02-24 o 00:49, Seth Hillbrand pisze:

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh >:


Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper
layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there
was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
>
> after this change:
>

https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b


>
>
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
>
> Andrzej
>
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Jon Evans]

Yes, this is not really a bug.  The behavior of the "draw polygon" tool is
the same as the zone tool on non-copper layers used to be.

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Seth Hillbrand 
wrote:

> The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.
>
> Andrzej, does this tool not work?
>
> -S
>
> 2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
>
>> Orson,
>>
>> Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
>>  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
>> reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
>> this resolved.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > after this change:
>> > https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a0
>> 5de19293a8ce5a55432527b
>> >
>> >
>> > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
>> > Was that intentional?
>> >
>> > Andrzej
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
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>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Seth Hillbrand]

The graphical polygon tool works for non-copper layers.

Andrzej, does this tool not work?

-S

2018-02-23 15:28 GMT-08:00 Wayne Stambaugh :

> Orson,
>
> Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
>  The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
> reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
> this resolved.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
>
> On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > after this change:
> > https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=
> fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b
> >
> >
> > I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> > Was that intentional?
> >
> > Andrzej
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Orson,

Is there any reason not to allow zones to be drawn on non-copper layers?
 The changes you made in this commit would seem to indicate there was a
reason not to allow this.  I'm going to hold off on rc1 until we get
this resolved.

Thanks,

Wayne

On 02/23/2018 06:10 PM, Andrzej Wolski wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> after this change:
> https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b
> 
> 
> I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
> Was that intentional?
> 
> Andrzej
> 
> 
> 
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[Kicad-developers] Non copper zones

[Andrzej Wolski]

Hello,

after this change:
https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/commit/?id=fea71c9f8f02c59a05de19293a8ce5a55432527b

I can no logner draw zones on non copper layers.
Was that intentional?

Andrzej



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