Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Francois Charbonnier]

+1


François Charbonnier,
Bibl. prof. / Chef de produits

Tél.  : (888) 604-2627
francois.charbonn...@inlibro.com 

inLibro | Spécialistes en technologies documentaires | www.inLibro.com 


Le 2017-08-21 à 04:43, Gaetan Boisson a écrit :


I really understand Jonathan's point here. He's probably become the 
one contributor with the best overall vision of the project now.


I really like the idea of using the dashboard more and making it better.

I also think Jonathan might need something more proactive, the 
dashboard requires the contributors to look at it and decide for 
themselves, but everyone is really busy, and we all get to make our 
own choices regarding priorities.



Two ideas i would suggest (sorry if it's redundant or has been said 
before):


- why not have a "mission critical" meeting from time to time for this 
kind of issues? With the goal of defining precisely who will do what 
on a given issue?


- would a small team of designated people help? A sort of Koha 
Kommando Jonathan can rely on when stumbling on something like this? 
It would need to be used carefully obviously, but i think just calling 
for help on the mailing list, irc or the dashboard dilutes the feeling 
of emergency, because no one is explicitly in charge. Maybe we 
(BibLibre), and other import support companies like Bywater and others 
can commit to having one person that is part of the emergency team? 
(note that I'm writing all this without having mentioned it to anyone 
at BibLibre...)



https://youtu.be/_MVonyVSQoM


Would that help?


Le 11/08/2017 à 15:40, Marc Véron a écrit :


Sorry for the empty message... What I wanted to say:


+1 for improving the dashboard
(I always check the dashboard first, then the Bug tracker, then the 
list of bugs to sign off, then my open bugs...)



Maybe the Dashboard could contain the links to the newest bugs / 
changed bugs from the Bug trackers start page:



Bugs reported in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days
Bugs changed in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days


Marc


Am 11.08.2017 um 15:34 schrieb Marc Véron:




Am 11.08.2017 um 11:55 schrieb Marcel de Rooy:


+1 for improving the dashboard

Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that 
interesting, we should list the critical ones on top. The need to 
click on that line should be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we 
can put these oldies somewhere down on the page in order to not 
forget them?





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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[BWS Johnson]

+1 to all of this.
Brooke


  From: Gaetan Boisson <gaetan.bois...@biblibre.com>
 To: koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org 
 Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 5:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?
   
  I really understand Jonathan's point here. He's probably become the one 
contributor with the best overall vision of the project now. I really like the 
idea of using the dashboard more and making it better. I also think Jonathan 
might need something more proactive, the dashboard requires the contributors to 
look at it and decide for themselves, but everyone is really busy, and we all 
get to make our own choices regarding priorities. 
  Two ideas i would suggest (sorry if it's redundant or has been said before): 
- why not have a "mission critical" meeting from time to time for this kind of 
issues? With the goal of defining precisely who will do what on a given issue? 
- would a small team of designated people help? A sort of Koha Kommando 
Jonathan can rely on when stumbling on something like this? It would need to be 
used carefully obviously, but i think just calling for help on the mailing 
list, irc or the dashboard dilutes the feeling of emergency, because no one is 
explicitly in charge. Maybe we (BibLibre), and other import support companies 
like Bywater and others can commit to having one person that is part of the 
emergency team? (note that I'm writing all this without having mentioned it to 
anyone at BibLibre...) 
  https://youtu.be/_MVonyVSQoM
  
  Would that help?
  
 Le 11/08/2017 à 15:40, Marc Véron a écrit :
  
 Sorry for the empty message... What I wanted to say: 
  +1 for improving the dashboard
 (I always check the dashboard first, then the Bug tracker, then the list of 
bugs to sign off, then my open bugs...)
  
  Maybe the Dashboard could contain the links to the newest bugs / changed bugs 
from the Bug trackers start page: 
  Bugs reported in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days  
 Bugs changed in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days   
  
  Marc
  
 Am 11.08.2017 um 15:34 schrieb Marc Véron:
  
 
  
 Am 11.08.2017 um 11:55 schrieb Marcel de Rooy:
  
   +1 for improving the 
dashboard Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that 
interesting, we should list the critical ones on top. The need to click on that 
line should be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we can put these oldies 
somewhere down on the page in order to not forget them?
   

  
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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Gaetan Boisson]

I really understand Jonathan's point here. He's probably become the one 
contributor with the best overall vision of the project now.


I really like the idea of using the dashboard more and making it better.

I also think Jonathan might need something more proactive, the dashboard 
requires the contributors to look at it and decide for themselves, but 
everyone is really busy, and we all get to make our own choices 
regarding priorities.



Two ideas i would suggest (sorry if it's redundant or has been said before):

- why not have a "mission critical" meeting from time to time for this 
kind of issues? With the goal of defining precisely who will do what on 
a given issue?


- would a small team of designated people help? A sort of Koha Kommando 
Jonathan can rely on when stumbling on something like this? It would 
need to be used carefully obviously, but i think just calling for help 
on the mailing list, irc or the dashboard dilutes the feeling of 
emergency, because no one is explicitly in charge. Maybe we (BibLibre), 
and other import support companies like Bywater and others can commit to 
having one person that is part of the emergency team? (note that I'm 
writing all this without having mentioned it to anyone at BibLibre...)



https://youtu.be/_MVonyVSQoM


Would that help?


Le 11/08/2017 à 15:40, Marc Véron a écrit :


Sorry for the empty message... What I wanted to say:


+1 for improving the dashboard
(I always check the dashboard first, then the Bug tracker, then the 
list of bugs to sign off, then my open bugs...)



Maybe the Dashboard could contain the links to the newest bugs / 
changed bugs from the Bug trackers start page:



Bugs reported in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days
Bugs changed in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days


Marc


Am 11.08.2017 um 15:34 schrieb Marc Véron:




Am 11.08.2017 um 11:55 schrieb Marcel de Rooy:


+1 for improving the dashboard

Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that 
interesting, we should list the critical ones on top. The need to 
click on that line should be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we 
can put these oldies somewhere down on the page in order to not 
forget them?





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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Marc Véron]

Sorry for the empty message... What I wanted to say:


+1 for improving the dashboard
(I always check the dashboard first, then the Bug tracker, then the list 
of bugs to sign off, then my open bugs...)



Maybe the Dashboard could contain the links to the newest bugs / changed 
bugs from the Bug trackers start page:



Bugs reported in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days
Bugs changed in the last 24 hours   | last 7 days


Marc


Am 11.08.2017 um 15:34 schrieb Marc Véron:




Am 11.08.2017 um 11:55 schrieb Marcel de Rooy:


+1 for improving the dashboard

Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that 
interesting, we should list the critical ones on top. The need to 
click on that line should be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we 
can put these oldies somewhere down on the page in order to not 
forget them?





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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Marc Véron]

Am 11.08.2017 um 11:55 schrieb Marcel de Rooy:


+1 for improving the dashboard

Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that interesting, 
we should list the critical ones on top. The need to click on that 
line should be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we can put these 
oldies somewhere down on the page in order to not forget them?





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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[BWS Johnson]

Salvete!

  Crazy idea:

  Most of our developers have been at this a while. They've submitted a lot 
of patches. Is there anyone with a machine learning knack that could apply ML 
in such a way to suggest a next patch for developers based on their prior 
submissions? 

Cheers,
Brooke
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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Hugo Agud]

+1 for improving the dashboard
+1 a place for Release Manager warnings, notices. requests...etc


2017-08-11 11:55 GMT+02:00 Marcel de Rooy :

> +1 for improving the dashboard
>
> Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that interesting, we
> should list the critical ones on top. The need to click on that line should
> be removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we can put these oldies somewhere
> down on the page in order to not forget them?
>
>
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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Marcel de Rooy]

+1 for improving the dashboard

Instead of listing the oldest bugs, which may not be that interesting, we 
should list the critical ones on top. The need to click on that line should be 
removed. See them rightaway. Maybe we can put these oldies somewhere down on 
the page in order to not forget them?

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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Katrin]

Hi all,

I like Magnus' suggestion of using the Dashboard. I look at it often and 
it's usually my starting point before signing off patches. Now with 
Jenkins status being back on it, it's even more useful for me RMaint. 
Maybe we could add a section for the RM to post urgent messages? Most of 
the Dashboard is data pulled in from difference sources, not sure how to 
best add it to it.


Katrin


On 11.08.2017 11:03, Magnus Enger wrote:

Kia ora!

I agree that there should be *one* place to get an overview of the
health of the project and what needs doing (at least as far as bugs
go), and for me the natural place for that is the dashboard:
http://dashboard.koha-community.org/

We could probably do more with that, and the data behind it (from
Bugzilla). Like:
- display blockers/critical bugs in big red letters across the top.
(Or use tags to let the RM choose bugs that should be specially
highlighted.)
- make the favicon red when there are such blockers (developers could
have the dashboard always open in a pinned tab)
- highlight the people who helped signoff and qa those critical patches

As for what to work on and when: With a lot more customers there is a
lot less time to sign off patches. So if I am going to do it I need to
find one that
- fits in the time I have available
- is relevant to my customers
- is in a part of Koha I know, or it will take a lot more time
(signing off patches in unknown parts of Koha is great for learning,
of course, but it will take more time)

Just my NOK 0,02.

Best regards,
Magnus
Libriotech

On 11 August 2017 at 02:01, David Cook <dc...@prosentient.com.au> wrote:

I have Arduinos and Raspberry Pis at my desk. Maybe making a literal big red
warning light isn’t a bad idea… ;). We could call it “The Bug Signal” after
The Bat Signal. We could make a Kickstarter!



I’m joking about the Kickstarter, but I kind of like the idea of a little
physical Koha bug display :p.



David Cook

Systems Librarian

Prosentient Systems

72/330 Wattle St

Ultimo, NSW 2007

Australia



Office: 02 9212 0899

Direct: 02 8005 0595



From: koha-devel-boun...@lists.koha-community.org
[mailto:koha-devel-boun...@lists.koha-community.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Druart
Sent: Friday, 11 August 2017 1:14 AM
To: Indranil Das Gupta <indr...@gmail.com>
Cc: Koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org>
Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?



Hi Indranil,



Of course I was not talking about new contributors. My main goal for this
release is to help new people to come on-board.

We refreshed the wiki, wrote a step-by-step how-to "signoff and write
patches", etc.

I give personal answers to new contributors, guide them, give them quick and
early feedbacks on their patches in order to keep them motivated.



This button I am asking for is to alert support companies and regular
developers that something is (very) urgent and need their attention. I would
like to stop gesticulating to try getting this attention. I would like a
button I can push to make a red blinking light on some desks. Then everybody
is free to ignore it, but they saw it and I will not push it again. It will
be easier for me to know that people knows, than sending emails, pinging on
#koha, adding card to the kanban, CCing people on the bug report, without
never knowing if they are aware of the problem.



About the kanban: its goal is NOT to replace bugzilla, it has never been and
will never be.

We are talking about two different tools. One is a bug tracker, the other
one is a tool to manage/prioritize different tasks, group them under "Epic"
(big works), form working groups, etc. Moreover community tasks are not
always one entry in bugzilla, we want to track, discuss and keep history of
more stuffs than just bugs. Taiga answered this lack. Please re-read the
wiki page of the kanban if its goal is not clear (or ask me to update it).



Cheers,

Jonathan



On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 06:43 Indranil Das Gupta <indr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Jonathan Druart
<jonathan.dru...@bugs.koha-community.org> wrote:


I do not see the point to sign-off and QA trivial string patches when
blockers are in the queue for weeks (no need to tell me everybody does
what
do they want, I still agree with that).

I completely get that blockers need to be sorted out. But personally I
got into Koha dev stream with string patches. How to write the tests
was a mystery to me in the initial days and I was afraid to get in
there. And when I did, I made mistakes which others helped clean up
and that's how I learnt and I'm still learning.

For a newbie, seeing their trivial patch being signed off and pushed
is a shot of adrenaline and it gives them the confidence to bite into
bigger pieces. I'm sure that we do not want Koha development to be
seen as an oligarchy of expert devs, by not pushing the insignificant
patches when there are blocker patches, especially w

Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Magnus Enger]

Kia ora!

I agree that there should be *one* place to get an overview of the
health of the project and what needs doing (at least as far as bugs
go), and for me the natural place for that is the dashboard:
http://dashboard.koha-community.org/

We could probably do more with that, and the data behind it (from
Bugzilla). Like:
- display blockers/critical bugs in big red letters across the top.
(Or use tags to let the RM choose bugs that should be specially
highlighted.)
- make the favicon red when there are such blockers (developers could
have the dashboard always open in a pinned tab)
- highlight the people who helped signoff and qa those critical patches

As for what to work on and when: With a lot more customers there is a
lot less time to sign off patches. So if I am going to do it I need to
find one that
- fits in the time I have available
- is relevant to my customers
- is in a part of Koha I know, or it will take a lot more time
(signing off patches in unknown parts of Koha is great for learning,
of course, but it will take more time)

Just my NOK 0,02.

Best regards,
Magnus
Libriotech

On 11 August 2017 at 02:01, David Cook <dc...@prosentient.com.au> wrote:
> I have Arduinos and Raspberry Pis at my desk. Maybe making a literal big red
> warning light isn’t a bad idea… ;). We could call it “The Bug Signal” after
> The Bat Signal. We could make a Kickstarter!
>
>
>
> I’m joking about the Kickstarter, but I kind of like the idea of a little
> physical Koha bug display :p.
>
>
>
> David Cook
>
> Systems Librarian
>
> Prosentient Systems
>
> 72/330 Wattle St
>
> Ultimo, NSW 2007
>
> Australia
>
>
>
> Office: 02 9212 0899
>
> Direct: 02 8005 0595
>
>
>
> From: koha-devel-boun...@lists.koha-community.org
> [mailto:koha-devel-boun...@lists.koha-community.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
> Druart
> Sent: Friday, 11 August 2017 1:14 AM
> To: Indranil Das Gupta <indr...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Koha-devel <koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org>
> Subject: Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?
>
>
>
> Hi Indranil,
>
>
>
> Of course I was not talking about new contributors. My main goal for this
> release is to help new people to come on-board.
>
> We refreshed the wiki, wrote a step-by-step how-to "signoff and write
> patches", etc.
>
> I give personal answers to new contributors, guide them, give them quick and
> early feedbacks on their patches in order to keep them motivated.
>
>
>
> This button I am asking for is to alert support companies and regular
> developers that something is (very) urgent and need their attention. I would
> like to stop gesticulating to try getting this attention. I would like a
> button I can push to make a red blinking light on some desks. Then everybody
> is free to ignore it, but they saw it and I will not push it again. It will
> be easier for me to know that people knows, than sending emails, pinging on
> #koha, adding card to the kanban, CCing people on the bug report, without
> never knowing if they are aware of the problem.
>
>
>
> About the kanban: its goal is NOT to replace bugzilla, it has never been and
> will never be.
>
> We are talking about two different tools. One is a bug tracker, the other
> one is a tool to manage/prioritize different tasks, group them under "Epic"
> (big works), form working groups, etc. Moreover community tasks are not
> always one entry in bugzilla, we want to track, discuss and keep history of
> more stuffs than just bugs. Taiga answered this lack. Please re-read the
> wiki page of the kanban if its goal is not clear (or ask me to update it).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 06:43 Indranil Das Gupta <indr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Jonathan Druart
> <jonathan.dru...@bugs.koha-community.org> wrote:
>
>> I do not see the point to sign-off and QA trivial string patches when
>> blockers are in the queue for weeks (no need to tell me everybody does
>> what
>> do they want, I still agree with that).
>
> I completely get that blockers need to be sorted out. But personally I
> got into Koha dev stream with string patches. How to write the tests
> was a mystery to me in the initial days and I was afraid to get in
> there. And when I did, I made mistakes which others helped clean up
> and that's how I learnt and I'm still learning.
>
> For a newbie, seeing their trivial patch being signed off and pushed
> is a shot of adrenaline and it gives them the confidence to bite into
> bigger pieces. I'm sure that we do not want Koha development to be
> seen as an oligarchy of expert devs, by not pushing the in

Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[BWS Johnson]

Salvete!


>>
Of course I was not talking about new contributors. My main goal for this 
release is to help new people to come on-board.
We refreshed the wiki, wrote a step-by-step how-to "signoff and write patches", 
etc.
I give personal answers to new contributors, guide them, give them quick and 
early feedbacks on their patches in order to keep them motivated.

>>

It's obvious to me how much work you're putting in Jonathan, and I 
appreciate it. Thank you. I'm glad one of your big goals is to recruit new 
people since if Koha were a kid, it would be old enough to drive in the USA.


>>
This button I am asking for is to alert support companies and regular 
developers that something is (very) urgent and need their attention. I would 
like to stop gesticulating to try getting this attention. I would like a button 
I can push to make a red blinking light on some desks. Then everybody is free 
to ignore it, but they saw it and I will not push it again. It will be easier 
for me to know that people knows, than sending emails, pinging on #koha, adding 
card to the kanban, CCing people on the bug report, without never knowing if 
they are aware of the problem.

>>

Yes.


>>
About the kanban: its goal is NOT to replace bugzilla, it has never been and 
will never be.
We are talking about two different tools. One is a bug tracker, the other one 
is a tool to manage/prioritize different tasks, group them under "Epic" (big 
works), form working groups, etc. Moreover community tasks are not always one 
entry in bugzilla, we want to track, discuss and keep history of more stuffs 
than just bugs. Taiga answered this lack. Please re-read the wiki page of the 
kanban if its goal is not clear (or ask me to update it).

>>

Thank you for clarifying this. I wasn't sure whether it would eventually 
supercede BZ or not.

Cheers,
Brooke
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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Jonathan Druart]

Hi Indranil,

Of course I was not talking about new contributors. My main goal for this
release is to help new people to come on-board.
We refreshed the wiki, wrote a step-by-step how-to "signoff and write
patches", etc.
I give personal answers to new contributors, guide them, give them quick
and early feedbacks on their patches in order to keep them motivated.

This button I am asking for is to alert support companies and regular
developers that something is (very) urgent and need their attention. I
would like to stop gesticulating to try getting this attention. I would
like a button I can push to make a red blinking light on some desks. Then
everybody is free to ignore it, but they saw it and I will not push it
again. It will be easier for me to know that people knows, than sending
emails, pinging on #koha, adding card to the kanban, CCing people on the
bug report, without never knowing if they are aware of the problem.

About the kanban: its goal is NOT to replace bugzilla, it has never been
and will never be.
We are talking about two different tools. One is a bug tracker, the other
one is a tool to manage/prioritize different tasks, group them under "Epic"
(big works), form working groups, etc. Moreover community tasks are not
always one entry in bugzilla, we want to track, discuss and keep history of
more stuffs than just bugs. Taiga answered this lack. Please re-read the
wiki page of the kanban if its goal is not clear (or ask me to update it).

Cheers,
Jonathan

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 at 06:43 Indranil Das Gupta  wrote:

> Hi
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Jonathan Druart
>  wrote:
>
> > I do not see the point to sign-off and QA trivial string patches when
> > blockers are in the queue for weeks (no need to tell me everybody does
> what
> > do they want, I still agree with that).
>
> I completely get that blockers need to be sorted out. But personally I
> got into Koha dev stream with string patches. How to write the tests
> was a mystery to me in the initial days and I was afraid to get in
> there. And when I did, I made mistakes which others helped clean up
> and that's how I learnt and I'm still learning.
>
> For a newbie, seeing their trivial patch being signed off and pushed
> is a shot of adrenaline and it gives them the confidence to bite into
> bigger pieces. I'm sure that we do not want Koha development to be
> seen as an oligarchy of expert devs, by not pushing the insignificant
> patches when there are blocker patches, especially when there is a
> call up for more "hands on the deck".
>
> Personally I was *not* happy with the shift to taiga. I knew my way
> around BZ. Kanban was a new format to me and having to spend time to
> learn a new pm tool was something that had me dragging my feet. But
> then its human nature.to resist  change. :-)  I will probably just get
> used to it in bit
>
> just my 2c
>
> indranil
>
> --
> Indranil Das Gupta
> L2C2 Technologies
>
> Phone : +91-98300-20971 <+91%2098300%2020971>
> WWW  : http://www.l2c2.co.in
> Blog: http://blog.l2c2.co.in
> IRC : indradg on irc://irc.freenode.net
> Twitter : indradg
>
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Re: [Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Jon Knight]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Jonathan Druart wrote:

If you are a developer and you want to help, what do you do? Where do you
do? How to you prioritize your work? Are you all picking bugs randomly in
the queue?


I'm not a "developer" in that I don't work for a commercial Koha support 
company, but as our library are moving to Koha and I'm a coder, I've been 
dipping my toes in the Koha dev waters.  As such, Koha is only a very 
small part of my day job, so doesn't get lots of time allocated to it at 
the moment.  Running to jump on the Koha dev train is quite a challenge: 
there's much to learn and the information about what to do and what is 
required/optional takes a while to find.  As such I currently feel much 
happier/safer making small enhancements/bug fixes than working on show 
stopping blockers where I may well currently lack the skills and knowledge 
to do the right thing.


So for me, yes, I do tend to look at Bugzilla bugs randomly in the queue, 
as some are of more interest to our library than others (and quite a few I 
don't understand and/or seem to have grown crufty and unusable). If I get 
a spare few minutes and something interesting pops up on the IRC channel 
or the mailing list I may look at it.



We need to all agree on a "place to go" to know what need to be done. I
listed ideas.


For what its worth, I'd suggest just having "a" place to go.  Koha seems 
to have lots of places to go at the moment (IRC, mailing list, Kanban, 
bugzilla, wiki pages, random people's githubs, etc, etc). If you're 
suffering from a lack of attention, focus what attention there is on just 
one place, and don't introduce more ways of interacting.


Jon
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[Koha-devel] FW: Where is the BIG RED WARNING button?

[Marcel de Rooy]

> As written in it, without an agreement we will find all together, no new 
> enhancements are going

> to be pushed.


I am not sure which 'agreement'  you are seeking here. The time for a critical 
bug to become part of master, just depends on involvement of people and the 
publicity made for it via IRC and mailing lists. If it takes more time, nobody 
should complain, because we can all participate.


 But the approach of vetoing enhancements is imo contraproductive and will only 
scare people away. So I just hope that you change your mind about that course. 
We cannot force people to participate.


If you are not pushing enhancements btw, it does not make much sense to QA them 
too. Same for testing or signing them off. Note if we pile up everything in 
PQA, we will have a lot of rebasing and we will create some new bugs in that 
process.


Marcel

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