Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Cynce Williams]

My father said the thread also had a right end and a wrong end to put through 
the needle. If you were threading a sewing machine you'e thread the end away 
from the spool through the needle. When you are hand sewing the tendency is to 
thread the end you just cut, but that is the end which should have the knot. 
The theory being that thread has a "nap" from the direction it was originally 
spun and working against the nap will make the thread wear out faster.

Cynthia

On Dec 12, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Sue wrote:

> I have been sewing for many years and never ever knew that.  Have never read 
> it or been told it anywhere until now, aged 68.
> I need to live my life all over again to make use of this great information. 
> :-)
> Sue T
> Dorset UK
> 
> 
> Thank you Jeri for your very informative message below.  Not being an
> , I had no idea that a needle had a right
> and wrong side for threading.  That is one activity which always brings
> out the frustration side of me.  :-)  Now I will check the eye of the
> needles with a strong lens to make sure I'm doing this correctly,
> thereby getting rid of my frustration.  Any hints would be gratefully
> received.
> 
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> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
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Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Sue]

I have been sewing for many years and never ever knew that.  Have never read 
it or been told it anywhere until now, aged 68.
I need to live my life all over again to make use of this great information. 
:-)

Sue T
Dorset UK


Thank you Jeri for your very informative message below.  Not being an
, I had no idea that a needle had a right
and wrong side for threading.  That is one activity which always brings
out the frustration side of me.  :-)  Now I will check the eye of the
needles with a strong lens to make sure I'm doing this correctly,
thereby getting rid of my frustration.  Any hints would be gratefully
received.

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To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
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Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Tregellas Family]

Thank you so much Carol. I will persist in my needle work with victory 
in sight.  :-)  Now to go read Barbara's missive on threads.

Cheers,
Shirley T.


On 12-Dec-17 11:03 AM, Carol wrote:
> Dear Shirley and others interested in threading a needle.
> The simplest way to know you are using the wrong side of the needle is when 
> the thread doesn’t go through the eye of the needle, assuming of course you 
> have lined everything up properly.

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Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Carol]

Dear Shirley and others interested in threading a needle.
The simplest way to know you are using the wrong side of the needle is when the 
thread doesn’t go through the eye of the needle, assuming of course you have 
lined everything up properly.  Simply roll the needle between your thumb and 
first finger until the other side of the eye is facing you and again  push your 
thread through the eye.  Should work just fine.  Sometimes for me that still 
doesn’t work and then I check the end of the thread for minute fibers hanging.  
Trim the thread, re-dampen (spit works for me), pinch the end of your thread 
and aim for the eye.  Victory is in your grasp!
Best regards,
Carol Melton
West of Phoenix, AZ USA
Valley of the Sun

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 11, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Tregellas Family  
> wrote:
>   Now I will check the eye of the 
> needles with a strong lens to make sure I'm doing this correctly, 
> thereby getting rid of my frustration.  Any hints would be gratefully 
> received.
> 

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Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Tregellas Family]

Thank you Jeri for your very informative message below.  Not being an 
embroiderer, both my Mum and sister were excellent in that area, so I 
had no need while growing up, I had no idea that a needle had a right 
and wrong side for threading.  That is one activity which always brings 
out the frustration side of me.  :-)  Now I will check the eye of the 
needles with a strong lens to make sure I'm doing this correctly, 
thereby getting rid of my frustration.  Any hints would be gratefully 
received.

I do hope you stay on Arachne as your missives are so very important to 
us all.

Happy Christmas to you all
Shirley T.  -  Adelaide, South Australia where the temp is supposed to 
reach 36C today then 38C tomorrow and we've been warned of our 
horrendous fire danger.  Seeing TV pics of the California fires has been 
very scary.


On 12-Dec-17 8:14 AM, Jeri Ames wrote:
> A preview of the letter below was sent to a prominent lace expert / volunteer.
> Â She has often wondered why no one has written something comprehensive on S
> vs. Z Threads and everything you'd ever want to know about Winding Threads on
> bobbins.

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Re: [lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Barbara Ballantyne]

I would be interested in joining the work group on S and Z bobbins and 
winding bobbins.

In 2010 I wrote a small book on the structure of threads for lace.

Jeri reviewed it on Arachne at the time.

This is a fascinating, sometimes difficult and important topic not 
generally understood.

The amount of twist in the thread is crucial.

  * If it is too tightly twisted the thread may be difficult to work
with  (it curls up on itself) and the resulting lace/textile tight
and undesirable.

  * If is not twisted enough the thread lacks strength and may break.

The direction of twist is often changed in the process working  - this 
is usually the crucial point rather than  the direction of twist is in 
the first place.

My book covered several aspects.

I it gave the usual diagrams of S and Z along with cabled thread.

2 it looked at the*direction of twist of the threads used for lace 
today*.  It included the information in Brenda Paternoster's book and 
what I saw when I looked at the thread collection of a lacemaker and 
what was being sold at the moment here.

The bobbin lace threads varied a good deal  - 2S 2Z 3S and 3Z.

Even *within a particular brand and size of thread some spools were S 
and others were Z finished *

For example Kantklosgaren Egyptisch Katoen No 31 included some which 
were 2S and others 2Z

Also Presencia Finca Bollilos No 80 had some 3Z and also 3S.

There is a one A4 page listing the threads and the direction of twist.

3  I showed how most Z finished crochet thread overtwists in the process 
of working.

4 When I crocheted test samples with a range of crochet threads of 
similar size but different structures (3S 3Z 2S and 2S/3Z) there was 
little effect of the direction of twist. *However I avoided any change 
in the amount of twist by working with a short length of thread and 
taking the thread off the side of the ball.*

5 diagrams of what happened to the amount of thread with twisted ribbon 
on a spool when

a taken off the side of the spool (no change)

b taken off the top or bottom of the spool (either an increase or decrease)

(I found this twisted ribbon way of illustration  used by Jean Leader to 
be very good)

6 I wondered why Z finished threads came on the scene.  The old laces 
were made with S-finished thread (the traditional situation with linen 
becauseof the particular properties of the linen fibres).  Rosemary 
Shepherd had advised the use of S-finished thread for bobbin lace.

I found a book chapter written by Philip Sykas which mentioned the 
change from S  to Z finish in sewing thread, possibly towards the end of 
the 1800s.  It was done to overcome the untwisting and breaking of the 
needle thread in certain sewing machines (among other things).  The use 
of Z finished thread is essential in modern sewing machines.  (Philip 
Sykas is  an experienced and well respected textile expert at Manchester 
Metropolitan University)

I suggested that the change in lace thread followed the change in the 
sewing thread.

Sewing thread is a huge market whereas that for lace thread is much much 
smaller.

My self published book /Structure of threads for lace/ is still 
available from me for $A12 plus postage.  See my webpage 
www.crochethistory.com/books.

Lacis (www.lacis.com) also stocks it at a rather high price.

There is a lot of detail in this post but it seems necessary

Barbara Ballantyne

in sunny Sydney, Australia


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[lace] Propose an OIDFA Work Group for S vs. Z Threads and Winding Bobbins

[Jeri Ames]

A preview of the letter below was sent to a prominent lace expert / volunteer.
 She has often wondered why no one has written something comprehensive on S
vs. Z Threads and everything you'd ever want to know about Winding Threads on
bobbins.  She thinks no one feels qualified.  
 
That is why OIDFA is on the Subject line.  A copy is being sent to Margaret
Abbey, President.  All the officers would have to be consulted, and it might
have to be discussed at the 2018 Congress.  This allows lots of time for
arguments on Arachne.  Would someone please volunteer to collect related
correspondence for us?  


Questions about 1) S vs. Z twists of threads and 2) everything about winding
bobbins, have been around a long time and people are more confused than ever.
 Today's thread manufacturers and people working with thread need guidance,
because most never had basic instruction of how thread is used.  (Many do not
even know how to thread a needle, or that one side of a needle's eye is
designed for that purpose.)  Lace makers in different countries have
different customs.  Reasons some laces are worked palms down and others palms
up needs clarification, along with an explanation if S or Z twists matter, and
the direction in which the bobbins should be filled with thread.  Here is
what has been observed:
 
1.  There is a very lovely children's book of bobbin lace patterns being
marketed by a not-for-profit that has 2 totally incomprehensible pages devoted
to winding bobbins.  I did not review the book - would have had to tell the
truth.  Last December I sent a donation to be used to film children winding
bobbins for the not-for-profit's You Tube, and since the books are printed in
small batches I recommended these pages be revised.  They are just getting
around to filming.  My first question is usually - Who proofread this
publication from cover-to-cover?  There is a saying - The Devil is in the
details.  There are so few willing and knowledgeable volunteers available,
that the few have been attending to more pressing management issues in lace
facilities and lace guilds.  The personal cost to these few is very high.
 They are under pressure all the time.  People expect information to be
free.  Lace organizations need capable volunteers to help deliver "free".
 
2.  Australian, Barbara Ballantyne, shared her crochet research with us a few
years ago.  She taught us that thread manufacturers today do not have basic
knowledge of how thread is used and why the twist direction is important. 

https://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.com/msg35959.html
 
3.  Because different laces have different traditional techniques, I
remembered a 159-page $50 hardback book purchased in Europe in 2012: Point
Ground Lace - Blonde, Point de Lille Spitze, Punto Antico, Pecna cipka, Ret-fi
- by Lace a European Network.  It was developed with financial support from
the European Union, and written by lace groups in 5 nations - France, Germany,
Italy, Slovenia, and Spain.  It is in the 5 languages of these countries,
plus English.  This does not address S vs.V twists and bobbin winding.  It
is an example of collaboration.

 
4.  OIDFA (l' Organisation Internationale de la Dentelle au Fuseau et à l'
Aiguille, which translates to International Bobbin and Needle Lace
Organisation) has long sponsored Work Groups.  They have done meaningful
research into laces used on national textiles and costumes, and published
results in books.  They also schedule lectures that explain various aspects
of lace research.  It is not always easy to understand the books, perhaps
because of a lack of proper editing.  However, why not ask OIDFA to sponsor
an international study of the confusing and contradicting subjects described
in this memo and on Arachne today?  The study should not be exclusively for
OIDFA members, but be a vehicle for providing the very best and most accurate
cohesive explanations of these critical aspects of preparing to learn to make
lace, or trying a new lace (today's lace makers like to make traditional laces
from a variety of cultures).  It would take a while to gain consensus, but
every bobbin lace could be included.  An example of how universal it might be
is the International Lace Dictionary by Johan Coene et al.
 
 
Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center. 

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