Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace

[Gon Homburg]

Dear Robin,

I think you missed the difference between a method of bobbin lacemaking and
the various techniques.
Every lace teacher should know about the closed and the open method in bobbin
lace and explain the difference between the two to their students.
When you are making Skans lace on a cooky pillow it does make any difference
in using the open or the closed method. However when you making it on a roller
pillow it is make sense to use the open method because of the bobbin hanging
down.
You can also make Skansk lace using the Torchon technique, but then you
don’t get Skansk lace, but Torchon with Skansk motives. The ground in whole
stitch is than made as a torch ground with pins on every crossing of the
pairs. When finished you can see the difference because in the Torchon way are
holes in the stitches and in the Skansk way there are not.
Making Point Ground pricking in the Torchon technique is some different. In
Torchon there are stitches above and beneath a pin, in Point Ground there is
mostly only a stitch above the pin.

However muscle memory can be very important. A friend of mine had a bleeding
in the brain and afterwards problems with her left hand. Starting making
bobbin lace again she managed to do that after a very short time and her left
hand ‘remembered’ what to do. So keep you muscle memory strong it can be
useful later.

Best regards,

Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands



> Op 26 nov. 2020, om 01:35 heeft Robin K Panza  het
volgende geschreven:
>
> You missed my point:  there are times when "muscle memory" gets in the way
when learning something new, and then the inexperienced person has the easier
time learning.  Yes, you can choose to ignore what the teacher is teaching at
any time.  That is not the same as learning the lesson.  You can use torchon
techniques on a Bucks point picking, but that doesn't mean you have made Bucks
point.
>
> Robin P
> Los Angeles, California, USA
>
>
>
> On November 25, 2020, at 2:19 AM, Gon Homburg  wrote:
>
>
> There is a difference between techniques and methods. Mostly is used the
closed method in which the stitches except cloth stitch end with the
appropriate amount of twist. Skansk Knipling is made according the open method
in with every stitch ends with a cross. This method is common in laces which
are originally made on a roller pillow. There is no need to switch method when
using a new technique. Skansk Knipling can also made in the closed method. The
result is the same.
>
> So switch from one technique to another without changing your method of
bobbin lace making.
>
> Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>
>
>
>> Op 25 nov. 2020, om 05:56 heeft Robin K Panza mailto:robinl...@socal.rr.com>> het volgende geschreven:
>>
>> Much of the time it is easy to switch to a different technique, but not
always.  Many of the European bobbin laces share the same basic techniques.
Half stitch is C, T; US whole stitch is C, T, C, T; and cloth stitch is C, T,
C.  But Skansk Knipling is different:  HS = T, C and USWS = T, C, T, C; the
hands fight to start those with crosses because of muscle memory.

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace

[Gon Homburg]

There is a difference between techniques and methods. Mostly is used the
closed method in which the stitches except cloth stitch end with the
appropriate amount of twist. Skansk Knipling is made according the open method
in with every stitch ends with a cross. This method is common in laces which
are originally made on a roller pillow. There is no need to switch method when
using a new technique. Skansk Knipling can also made in the closed method. The
result is the same.
Originally my mother taught me the closed method the same way as she learned
how to make lace. More than 20 years ago Lia Baumeister taught us the open
method, the way she learned to make lace. The last method is more efficient
because every stitch end the same way with a cross. So the threads are always
laying or hanging straight down without twist. Easy to sea. Also when you are
making point lace or torchon, when some stitches end with 1 twist, another
with 2 and the tulle stitch with 3 twists. Using the open method there is no
need to check if you made all the twists needed for the stitch because you
make them at the beginning of the stitch. This method works on a roller pillow
as well as on a cooky pillow.

So switch from one technique to another without changing your method of bobbin
lace making.

Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands



> Op 25 nov. 2020, om 05:56 heeft Robin K Panza  het
volgende geschreven:
>
> Much of the time it is easy to switch to a different technique, but not
always.  Many of the European bobbin laces share the same basic techniques.
Half stitch is C, T; US whole stitch is C, T, C, T; and cloth stitch is C, T,
C.  But Skansk Knipling is different:  HS = T, C and USWS = T, C, T, C; the
hands fight to start those with crosses because of muscle memory.

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace

[Jim & Shirley]

Here in Adelaide we call the 's Gravenmoerse half stitch  -  half stitch 
with attitude.  :-)


Once you've done a half dozen half stitch blocks you might be able to 
understand the geometry of the stitch  -  so different but so beautiful 
when once you get the hang of it.


Cheers,
Shirley T.  -  Adelaide, South Australia with hot weather getting closer.

Similarly, 's Gravenmoerse is so similar to torchon that many experienced 
lacemakers have more trouble than beginners with the parts that differ, 
especially the unique half stitch.  As with Skansk, our hands are so confident 
that half stitch is always a particular way that they can be very confused and 
clumsy when they come to an exception.

Robin P
Los Angeles, California, USA



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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace

[Robin K Panza]

On November 24, 2020, at 8:23 AM, Gon Homburg  wrote:

>Of course I make lace for a long time now, but I never have that my muscle 
>memory got in the way when I learned a new technique like three pairs fiandra.

Much of the time it is easy to switch to a different technique, but not always. 
 Many of the European bobbin laces share the same basic techniques.  Half 
stitch is C, T; US whole stitch is C, T, C, T; and cloth stitch is C, T, C.  
But Skansk Knipling is different:  HS = T, C and USWS = T, C, T, C; the hands 
fight to start those with crosses because of muscle memory.  Then, when the 
brain becomes better at overriding the hands, we get to cloth stitch.  Cloth 
stitch is "twist before the first stitch, then C, T, C for as many stitches 
there are in a row."  Now you're mixing the old and new muscle memories 
together, and the most experienced lacemakers definitely have a harder time 
than newcomers.

Similarly, 's Gravenmoerse is so similar to torchon that many experienced 
lacemakers have more trouble than beginners with the parts that differ, 
especially the unique half stitch.  As with Skansk, our hands are so confident 
that half stitch is always a particular way that they can be very confused and 
clumsy when they come to an exception.

Robin P
Los Angeles, California, USA

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Karisse Moore]

I am making lace for an alb. I want to get it done before I die and that may
take some two hours every day. LOL. Anyway if someone could research what the
women did who made it fast and accurate for a living, to put food on the table
and clothes on their backs, I would love to learn. I want to start with the
leather on the pillow.


Karisse
Windy, Cold Washington State

On November 24,
2020 at 8:58 AM, lynrbai...@supernet.com wrote:


Pierre et al,

That is the
famous lady at Kantcentrum whom I mentioned in a prior post on this thread.
She is just amazing.

A number of years ago, I made lace for two altar cloths.
It took over two years to finish the project, working at least 2 hours every
day. I felt I was experiencing, in a very small way, the way it was for the
commercial lace makers, doing it for money. For them, speed meant food on the
table. So learning to make lace as fast as I can, accurately, is something
that interests me. Clearly practice is important, but also there must be
certain techniques taught. I wonder if anyone has ever questioned the famous
lady at Kantcentrum as to what she was taught that made her so speedy.

Lyn in
Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it is close to freezing, but also very
sunny, which is nice to have in November.


"My email sends out an automatic
message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your emails."


Pierre
Fouche wrote?

Thank you for the wonderful video links, everyone! And to prove
the point
that speed is possible with many bobbins on the pillow (and Flanders
at
that!) too:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUHFZrJIzTo


(I love the
casual peek at the pair diagram next to her halfway through..)


It seems that
a one-hand "flick" of the pairs (fairly low on the bobbins'
shafts),
(continental bobbins, palms down) instead of picking them up is
this
lacemaker's technique.


I just tried it on the pillow, and it will take some
practice to get used
to, but it might be worth the effort! I normally pick up
the bobbins, and
if I try to work faster this way, the bobbins start to
"bounce" off the
pillow (and tangling them out of order). A light, one-handed
flick is a
much more efficient movement that would avoid this problem too.
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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Gon Homburg]

Perhaps it is true it takes that long to become an expert and to make lace fast 
and efficient. I think that the trick is, that the best way to become an 
‘expert’ to make lace fast and efficient is to do it on a natural way. During 
my education as a lace instructor I had to make of course much lace, that I 
became faster and more efficient automatically. In the first year we did a long 
stroke of torchon lace with cloth stitch in between the various stitches. Than 
I developed the way to do the cloth stitch as I do it nowadays: starting the 
new stitch with cross simultaneously with the last cross of the stitch before.
Of course I make lace for a long time now, but I never have that my muscle 
memory got in the way when I learned a new technique like three pairs fiandra.

Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands



> Op 24 nov. 2020, om 16:09 heeft yhgr@xs4all.nl het volgende geschreven:
> 
> In general it takes 10.000 hours to become an expert. That is 3 hours a day, 
> 7 days a week for 10 years. 
> 
> I did a workshop once with three pair stars. The novices had no more trouble 
> than with any other new trick. The muscle memory got in the way for the 
> veterans. For them it was very hard if not impossible.
> 
> I rather keep the flexibility to explore new worlds. A good excuse for less 
> practice.
> 
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> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Malvary Cole]

I revisited it and watched again and noticed that when she made the leaf 
that she did it the way that I've seen the ladies in Camariñas do it - 
several passes then pull it up.  I also noticed that she had a loop at the 
side of her leaf, making it a holly leaf.  So yes she was fast because it 
was her livelihood but was it as accurate as we like to make it - probably 
not, but then it we aren't making lace to put bread on the table like she 
was.



Interesting that it shows the lady making a fairly narrow Beds edging, and
then shows the sunshade with a very deep, probably Bucks lace frill.


Adele's link to the youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwcSaAXtZsc

Malvary in Ottawa where the sun is shining and it is very cold.

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Re[2]: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Sue Babbs]

Oh boy! Those urchins were hard work, with barely tested patterns 
needing to be made in under 2 weeks.  My hands took months to recover!


Sue
suebabbs...@gmail.com

-- Original Message --
From: "Jay Ekers" 
To: "Arachne" 
Sent: 11/24/2020 10:06:22 AM
Subject: RE: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?


On a different scale - a very large scale -  Choi + Shine, architects, have
designed  international lace projects handmade by skilled crocheters from
all over the world.http://www.choishine.com/




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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Malvary Cole]

Interesting that it shows the lady making a fairly narrow Beds edging, and 
then shows the sunshade with a very deep, probably Bucks lace frill.



Adele's link to the youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwcSaAXtZsc

Malvary in Ottawa where the sun is shining and it is very cold.

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RE: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Jay Ekers]

On a different scale - a very large scale -  Choi + Shine, architects, have
designed  international lace projects handmade by skilled crocheters from
all over the world.http://www.choishine.com/

2016 Amsterdam Light Festival  - a sail spanning a canal.
"The Six antique motif designs used for the proposal were found in a 100
year old archive of needle made laces and chosen for their beauty in
repetition of the shape and their thematic variations. However, needle made
lace proved to be not only very time consuming, but also not feasible as it
required working with short lengths of yarn .   The task was to find a
method that would allow us to make a large scale lace motif with a
continuous yarn, without cutting, to maximize the strength of the finished
work. Crochet seems to be the most promising method
that could simulate the appearance of the needle made lace while using a
continuous yarn."

"Urchins" were designed for Singapore  in about 2016 - two lace orbs, each
fifteen feet in diameter!.   

"More than 50 people dedicated three months to meticulously craft by hand"
the urchins that were shown in the "Lace not Lace : Contemporary Fiber Art
from Lacemaking Techniques" exhibition at the Hunterdon Art Museum in
Clinton NJ.  2018/2019

For  the festival associated with in 2018 the  Commonwealth Games on the
Gold Coast, Australia," 60 skilled and talented crocheters meticulously
crocheted each motif using the customary hook and marine grade  rope to make
the radically upscaled Urchins.  Each urchin was carefully crafted from
hand-crocheted lace to mimic the striking and harmonious patterns found in
nature. Together, the Urchins embody the spirit, diversity and landscape of
the Gold Coast." 

Jay in Sydney
.---
---

I think the idea of community effort to make a large project is a great
idea. I know that was practiced in the past to get a large project finished
in the smallest amount of time. Many different lace makers would work on a
portion of the lace and then a trained person would sew the pieces together.
I would love to participate in a project that was like that.

Karisse
Cold, wet
Washington State

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[lynrbailey]

Pierre et al,

That is the famous lady at Kantcentrum whom I mentioned in a prior post on this 
thread.  She is just amazing.  

A number of years ago, I made lace for two altar cloths.  It took over two 
years to finish the project, working at least 2 hours every day.  I felt I was 
experiencing, in a very small way, the way it was for the commercial lace 
makers, doing it for money.  For them, speed meant food on the table.  So 
learning to make lace as fast as I can, accurately, is something that interests 
me.  Clearly practice is important, but also there must be certain techniques 
taught.  I wonder if anyone has ever questioned the famous lady at Kantcentrum 
as to what she was taught that made her so speedy.  

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it is close to freezing, but also 
very sunny, which is nice to have in November.


"My email sends out an automatic  message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your emails."


Pierre Fouche wrote?
>Thank you for the wonderful video links, everyone! And to prove the point
>that speed is possible with many bobbins on the pillow (and Flanders at
>that!) too:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUHFZrJIzTo
>
>(I love the casual peek at the pair diagram next to her halfway through..)
>
>It seems that a one-hand "flick" of the pairs (fairly low on the bobbins'
>shafts), (continental bobbins, palms down) instead of picking them up is
>this lacemaker's technique.
>
>I just tried it on the pillow, and it will take some practice to get used
>to, but it might be worth the effort! I normally pick up the bobbins, and
>if I try to work faster this way, the bobbins start to "bounce" off the
>pillow (and tangling them out of order). A light, one-handed flick is a
>much more efficient movement that would avoid this problem too.
>

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[yhgr . jfp]

In general it takes 10.000 hours to become an expert. That is 3 hours a day, 7 
days a week for 10 years. 

I did a workshop once with three pair stars. The novices had no more trouble 
than with any other new trick. The muscle memory got in the way for the 
veterans. For them it was very hard if not impossible.

I rather keep the flexibility to explore new worlds. A good excuse for less 
practice.

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Jim & Shirley]

One of our members comes from France and I saw her using the 
leather/vinyl cover cloth.  I've made myself a couple and they do seem 
to speed up the bobbins  -  maybe I should get them out to work Mum's 
tablecloth.  :-)  Brigitte works with continental bobbins on a flat 
pillow.  I guess its the way you were taught but I find my 
slightly raised cookie pillow with spangled bobbins no trouble at all.


Cheers,
Shirley T.  -  heading for 40C on Friday and Saturday.  Hot weather 
coming your way ladies but I think Chelle might be sending us some rain 
shortly




On 24/11/2020 11:40 am, phillipa powis wrote:

Wow- two digests in one day.
I was about to reply to Elenas question when the second digest popped up
containing more or less things that I might have said.
I too watched the  amazing elderly lady in the window at Kantcentrum and
was intrigued by the leather cover cloth on her pillow. An instructor was
taking a novice class in the same room and I asked her about the leather.
It is to enable the bobbins to slide very quickly and smoothly across the
pillow while making several stitches in a row. They have pieces of
leather-like vinyl that students are encouraged to use as confidence grows.
I also saw that, working palms down and fingers bent, all her fingers were
used with bobbins held between the knuckles.

Phil   in Maitland, NSW, Australia -

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Karisse Moore]

I think the idea of community effort to make a large project is a great
idea. I know that was practiced in the past to get a large project finished in
the smallest amount of time. Many different lace makers would work on a
portion of the lace and then a trained person would sew the pieces together. I
would love to participate in a project that was like that.


Karisse
Cold, wet
Washington State

On November 23, 2020 at 10:43 AM, Pierre Fouché
 wrote:


Hi Elena and Arachnids

I'm very intrigued
by this as well and find it interesting that
contemporary lacemakers don't
value speed and efficiency as much as
knitters do for example. Anyone who has
learned how to play a musical
instrument can attest to muscle memory not
happening after a week or a
month of practice, yet the reward for regular
practice is noticeable
improvement. The joy of experiencing your hands on
auto-pilot and your mind
seemingly blocking out every other stimulus with a
razor-like focus is a
"destination" worth practicing for. (I am not nearly
there at all... but I
have glimpsed a couple of "nearly there" moments)

Of
course, it doesn't help that many lacemakers are inquisitive of many
different
styles and techniques (the equivalent of taking up multiple
musical
instruments...)

I'm equally intrigued by the idea of communal work as a means
to create
efficiency - to have a collective work on a large scale project
("large" in
effort, and not necessarily in size) and of what value that could
be for
commemorative objects, or simply for building a community. From time to
time such projects arise, and they are all commendable, but it would be
great
to see more and to see lace collectives confidently engaging with
their
immediate communities *and* the broader public (through major public
art
commissions for instance...)

Please keep this conversation going? Any hack
might just turn out to be the
thing that was missing in someone's technique.
(That said, I've seen a
couple of unique knitters do very counterintuitive
finger gymnastics at
incredible speeds, so it might just boil down to practice
in the end.)

One thing I can highly recommend from experience is to sand and
polish your
DIY bobbins to the absolute smoothest finish you can because
super-careful
bobbin management on the pillow to keep your thread from
snagging slows
things down significantly. (Guess who's on sanding duty for the
next couple
of days in order to avoid that frustration again?)

Best


Pierre
Cape Town

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[phillipa powis]

Wow- two digests in one day.
I was about to reply to Elenas question when the second digest popped up
containing more or less things that I might have said.
I too watched the  amazing elderly lady in the window at Kantcentrum and
was intrigued by the leather cover cloth on her pillow. An instructor was
taking a novice class in the same room and I asked her about the leather.
It is to enable the bobbins to slide very quickly and smoothly across the
pillow while making several stitches in a row. They have pieces of
leather-like vinyl that students are encouraged to use as confidence grows.
I also saw that, working palms down and fingers bent, all her fingers were
used with bobbins held between the knuckles.

Phil   in Maitland, NSW, Australia -

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RE: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[cjsettle]

The other thing to note is that the lacemaker has a leather or leather-like
surface on her working area.  I've seen this before, and it makes a good
deal of sense.  I'm going to make myself one and see how it works.

Clare

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com  On Behalf Of Pierre
Fouché
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:07 PM
To: lynrbai...@supernet.com
Cc: Elena Kanagy-Loux ; Arachne 
Subject: Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

Thank you for the wonderful video links, everyone! And to prove the point
that speed is possible with many bobbins on the pillow (and Flanders at
that!) too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUHFZrJIzTo

(I love the casual peek at the pair diagram next to her halfway through..)

It seems that a one-hand "flick" of the pairs (fairly low on the bobbins'
shafts), (continental bobbins, palms down) instead of picking them up is
this lacemaker's technique.

I just tried it on the pillow, and it will take some practice to get used
to, but it might be worth the effort! I normally pick up the bobbins, and if
I try to work faster this way, the bobbins start to "bounce" off the pillow
(and tangling them out of order). A light, one-handed flick is a much more
efficient movement that would avoid this problem too.


Pierre

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Karisse Moore]

In the last few years it seems to me that we have emphasized perfection over
speed in making lace. I find that I am faster when I use continental bobbins
vs. using spangled bobbins. I have learned to do the the whole stitch where
you move both the cross and the twist together across the an area of whole
stitch. I have timed myself and I am about equal in time as doing it separate.
But I haven't practiced very much either. I will agree that practice makes
faster. I do try to make some lace everyday and I know it helps with muscle
memory. I think perfection is important when we are making pictures to hang on
the wall but I wonder if speed isn't more important if we are making yardage
to use on clothes. 


I am making some Bedfordshire to put on my masks and if
someone is so close to my mask that they can see a rogue twist or cross they
are all together too close to my mask. I just want to get some lace on my
face. LOL


Karisse in cold wet Washington State.

On November 23, 2020 at
9:59 AM, lynrbai...@supernet.com wrote:


Elena, I think I know the lady you
mean at Kantcentrum. I saw her when I spent a week there, in 2009, working in
the afternoons. She always sat in the corner with the most light, and had been
making lace since she was 7. At that time she was in her 70's. She was so
fast, and her work was beautiful. I think there are many videos of her hands
at work. Yesterday, at the online lecture, there was a video of women from
near Le Puy en Velay, you could tell by their bobbins, going quickly. I'm
wondering if one slowed down the motion of these videos, an experienced
lacemaker could pick up tips. And thanks, Nancy Neff, for your suggestion on
cloth stitch. Sounds workable to me. Big motifs in Flanders come to mind.

Lyn
in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where all the leaves are off the trees, as always
happens the week before Thanksgiving. We are eating takeout from a local
restaurant for Thanksgiving, just the two of us. Sure saves time from cooking
for lace.


"My email sends out an automatic message. Arachne members,
please
ignore it. I read your emails."


Elena wrote:

Agreed, they are just
breathtaking! I have a video of a lacemaker at
Kantecentrum that I share in
most of my lectures for graduate classes and I
always warn them that they will
probably be disappointed with the speed of
my live demonstration at the end
after watching this video. :)
Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Gon Homburg]

Hi Nancy, Elena and other Arachnids,

The overlap in the cloth stitch is really fast. I do it for years now. It is 
faster than making the cloth stitch with palms up. That way you have to pick up 
pairs and lay down pairs. On a cooky pillow with palms down it is for me a 
natural way of making the cloth stitch.

Best regards

Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands



> Op 23 nov. 2020, om 15:41 heeft N.A. Neff  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hi Elena and fellow Arachnids:
> 
> I have found that, when doing an area of cloth stitch, I can go twice as
> fast if I "overlap" stitches. Do the cross in the next stitch as you do it
> in the current stitch, and move across, doing two crosses at the same time
> just like you do a twist with each hand. I think it's faster than twice
> because it's so balanced and rhythmical.
> 
> Nancy
> 
> Nancy A. Neff
> Ashford, Connecticut, USA
> 
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 09:18 Elena Kanagy-Loux 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Anyway, just for fun, I was curious if anyone else had experiences or
>> advice to speed up lace through shortcuts or other tricks to share with one
>> another
>> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[ashaak]

Ooops! I looked at the thumbnail and thought it was the right film, but it
wasn’t.

I was thinking about “Lace of Long Ago” (1931):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwcSaAXtZsc


Adele


> On Nov 23, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Malvary  wrote:
>
> Hi Adele
>
> The link opens a lady doing tambour work.  That is something I haven’t
tried yet.
>

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Adele Shaak]

There is an old British Pathé newsreel from 1929, where they filmed an elderly 
lacemaker at work. Given her evident age, she would have learned her lacemaking 
in the 1860s or so. The interesting thing for me is that she moves the bobbins 
with her left hand, and puts in the pins with the other. She does seem to go 
along at a great rate - however the lace isn’t of very good quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf9pmm7Yk78=PL-D58_GV_WDdbZq5R_S7MyGRP2BjFLWo-=83=2s

I have seen some videos of lacemakers who do work very quickly, but you can see 
they spend quite a bit of time rearranging their bobbins after they threw them 
out of position because they were going so fast. I can go fairly fast at times 
but I prefer to keep everything in an order that works for me.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

> Anyway, just for fun, I was curious if anyone else had experiences or
> advice to speed up lace through shortcuts or other tricks to share with one
> another. I certainly find I am much faster working palms up, but most of my
> projects are better suited for cookie pillows so I rarely work that way.

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Cindy Rusak]

Hi All,

I flick my bobbins when doing tallies/leaves, and find it doesn't take long
to make one. After I learned that way (thanks, Josée!), I had other
teachers demonstrate other methods but none were any where near as fast. I
also work cloth stitch the way Nancy mentioned - it's much quicker.

Cheers,
Cindy, in Ontario, Canada


> For example, I studied bobbin lace at the Hotel de la Dentelle in Brioude,
> and they have a trick for making tallies that allows their staff and
> graduates to work impressively fast. It's hard to explain, but essentially
> you never pick up and carry your bobbins palms down. Instead you rotate
> your hands 180 degrees in a seamless flow and fling the bobbins back and
> forth. Sorry if that isn't very clear, they must have videos of it
> somewhere.
>
>

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Malvary Cole]

My sister and I have watched the ladies making lace in Camariñas on many 
occasions.


They work very fast and we were intrigued by the way they make leaves. 
Across and back 3 or 4 times or more and then pull them up into leaf shape. 
We asked one lady if she could go slower so we could watch how she did it, 
but for her it was almost impossible to slow down very much.  She explained 
that the children go across and back once, then as they get older they add 
more times as they get more experience.


We do notice that while they work very quickly, they also spend a lot of 
time sorting their bobbins to get them in the right order and without twists 
before they continue.  They are making lace for sale so obviously need to 
work as fast as they can.  For me, it is my hobby and my relaxation I don't 
need to speed along.  I do make my cloth stitch as described before if I'm 
doing something that has expanses of cloth stitch.  I do a lot of Milanese 
and Idrija style lace, so don't often have large areas.


Just my 2 cents worth.

Malvary in Ottawa where we had 20 cm of wet heavy snow last evening and 
strong winds to blow it around.


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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Pierre Fouché]

Thank you for the wonderful video links, everyone! And to prove the point
that speed is possible with many bobbins on the pillow (and Flanders at
that!) too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUHFZrJIzTo

(I love the casual peek at the pair diagram next to her halfway through..)

It seems that a one-hand "flick" of the pairs (fairly low on the bobbins'
shafts), (continental bobbins, palms down) instead of picking them up is
this lacemaker's technique.

I just tried it on the pillow, and it will take some practice to get used
to, but it might be worth the effort! I normally pick up the bobbins, and
if I try to work faster this way, the bobbins start to "bounce" off the
pillow (and tangling them out of order). A light, one-handed flick is a
much more efficient movement that would avoid this problem too.


Pierre

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Pierre Fouché]

Hi Elena and Arachnids

I'm very intrigued by this as well and find it interesting that
contemporary lacemakers don't value speed and efficiency as much as
knitters do for example. Anyone who has learned how to play a musical
instrument can attest to muscle memory not happening after a week or a
month of practice, yet the reward for regular practice is noticeable
improvement. The joy of experiencing your hands on auto-pilot and your mind
seemingly blocking out every other stimulus with a razor-like focus is a
"destination" worth practicing for. (I am not nearly there at all... but I
have glimpsed a couple of "nearly there" moments)

Of course, it doesn't help that many lacemakers are inquisitive of many
different styles and techniques (the equivalent of taking up multiple
musical instruments...)

I'm equally intrigued by the idea of communal work as a means to create
efficiency - to have a collective work on a large scale project ("large" in
effort, and not necessarily in size) and of what value that could be for
commemorative objects, or simply for building a community. From time to
time such projects arise, and they are all commendable, but it would be
great to see more and to see lace collectives confidently engaging with
their immediate communities *and* the broader public (through major public
art commissions for instance...)

Please keep this conversation going? Any hack might just turn out to be the
thing that was missing in someone's technique. (That said, I've seen a
couple of unique knitters do very counterintuitive finger gymnastics at
incredible speeds, so it might just boil down to practice in the end.)

One thing I can highly recommend from experience is to sand and polish your
DIY bobbins to the absolute smoothest finish you can because super-careful
bobbin management on the pillow to keep your thread from snagging slows
things down significantly. (Guess who's on sanding duty for the next couple
of days in order to avoid that frustration again?)

Best


Pierre
Cape Town

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[lynrbailey]

Elena, I meant to include the  url for that, and then I see it did not
happen.  Thanks for including that.  lrb

  Lyn, that's an excellent idea!For those that didn't see David
  Hopkin's lecture yesterday, I took the liberty of watching the entire
  video on YouTube this morning. Here it is, for those who are
  interested:https://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=yXgFV_YXYKA

  

"My email sends out an automatic  message. Arachne
members,
please ignore it. I read your
emails."

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Lyn, that's an excellent idea!
For those that didn't see David Hopkin's lecture yesterday, I took the
liberty of watching the entire video on YouTube this morning. Here it is,
for those who are interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXgFV_YXYKA

Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[lynrbailey]

Elena, I think I know the lady you mean at Kantcentrum.  I saw her when I spent 
a week there, in 2009, working in the afternoons.  She always sat in the corner 
with the most light, and had been making lace since she was 7.  At that time 
she was in her 70's.  She was so fast, and her work was beautiful.  I think 
there are many videos of her hands at work.  Yesterday, at the online lecture, 
there was a video of women from near Le Puy en Velay, you could tell by their 
bobbins, going quickly.  I'm wondering if one slowed down the motion of these 
videos, an experienced lacemaker could pick up tips. And thanks, Nancy Neff, 
for your suggestion on cloth stitch.  Sounds workable to me.  Big motifs in 
Flanders come to mind.  

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where all the leaves are off the trees, as 
always happens the week before Thanksgiving.  We are eating takeout from a 
local restaurant for Thanksgiving, just the two of us.  Sure saves time from 
cooking for lace.


"My email sends out an automatic  message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your emails."


Elena wrote:
>Agreed, they are just breathtaking! I have a video of a lacemaker at
>Kantecentrum that I share in most of my lectures for graduate classes and I
>always warn them that they will probably be disappointed with the speed of
>my live demonstration at the end after watching this video. :)
>Best,
>Elena

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Hi Clare,

Agreed, they are just breathtaking! I have a video of a lacemaker at
Kantecentrum that I share in most of my lectures for graduate classes and I
always warn them that they will probably be disappointed with the speed of
my live demonstration at the end after watching this video. :)
Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Dear Nancy,

Interesting! I had never considered that, but it makes a lot of sense. I'll
have to give it a try! :)
Best,
Elena

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Clare Settle]

Elena asked about speed - the fastest lacemakers I’ve seen in person are at the 
Kancentrum in Brugge, Belgium. There seemed to be a few of underlying 
commonalities. First, they seemed to be working on patterns they understood and 
knew well. Second, they had been making lace for years.  Third, they made some 
lace nearly every day.

Practice, practice, practice.  

Clare

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Re: [lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[N.A. Neff]

Hi Elena and fellow Arachnids:

I have found that, when doing an area of cloth stitch, I can go twice as
fast if I "overlap" stitches. Do the cross in the next stitch as you do it
in the current stitch, and move across, doing two crosses at the same time
just like you do a twist with each hand. I think it's faster than twice
because it's so balanced and rhythmical.

Nancy

Nancy A. Neff
Ashford, Connecticut, USA

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020, 09:18 Elena Kanagy-Loux 
wrote:

>
> Anyway, just for fun, I was curious if anyone else had experiences or
> advice to speed up lace through shortcuts or other tricks to share with one
> another
>

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[lace] Speed and efficiency in lace?

[Elena Kanagy-Loux]

Dear Arachnids,

I hope you all are doing well!

I watched a very interesting online talk this weekend with Mathew Gnagy, a
historic costumer who makes some of his own needle and bobbin lace. You can
find his work on his website: https://themodernmaker.net/
I've heard him discuss several times how he tries to observe makers who are
skilled in manufacturing things by hand to try to glean the most efficient
ways in working quickly.

Obviously, decades of experience working at a task day in and day out is
the best ways to get faster at it, but it made me wonder if there aren't
some shortcuts in lacemaking to help speed up the process.

For example, I studied bobbin lace at the Hotel de la Dentelle in Brioude,
and they have a trick for making tallies that allows their staff and
graduates to work impressively fast. It's hard to explain, but essentially
you never pick up and carry your bobbins palms down. Instead you rotate
your hands 180 degrees in a seamless flow and fling the bobbins back and
forth. Sorry if that isn't very clear, they must have videos of it
somewhere.

Anyway, just for fun, I was curious if anyone else had experiences or
advice to speed up lace through shortcuts or other tricks to share with one
another. I certainly find I am much faster working palms up, but most of my
projects are better suited for cookie pillows so I rarely work that way.

Best,
Elena

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