Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
I am not trying to hijack this thread. I was thinking also in conjunction with an online version of the BSA is there something we can code into LO which integrates with the BSA that way if people go to help and submit a but a window pops up with version os etc and a text box to type in the issue. On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Rob Snelders libreoff...@ertai.nl wrote: Hi All, My little contribution. I think we are going the wrong way totally. When the dev-list found gerrit it wasn't quite what they wanted. But they took it, tweaked it and are now using it, with great success (afaik). And here we are trying to create something new that stands between what we have as bugzilla and the ask-site. Why are we trying to take this hughe detour to get what we want? I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Then we can make the bugs less complex and use usefull subcomponents. But then we can also install plugins we think are usefull. Tweaking bugzilla then so it comes really close with what we need is better then. Yes this is a road that needs time invested. But that is also needed for the other road. Just my €0,02 -- Greetings, Rob Snelders On 16-07-13 00:33, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 05:59:37PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I did that and I was told to stop. One big problem with Ask admins reporting a bug for a user is that the reporter isthe Ask admin. Do you run OSX 10.7? Do you run Windows Vista? I don't, so when a dev comes back and asks me for repro steps, I have to shrug and say Go talk to user XYZ on the Ask site and as you said, the devs don't use the Ask site! Yeah, its probably best to suggest users to file a bug and offer to help them along on #libreoffice-qa once the bug is triaged roughly. I dont think we need to bother with bugs as long as those are obviously not welltriaged. Another problem is that if they haven't provided enough information, we can't tag the question as NEEDINFO and let the Ask system pester them for more information (although this would be a *great* improvement that I'd like to see!) THB, I did something similar with a question recently: Asked a long idle incomplete question if there is an update on the missing info and then closed it as outdated a few days later as there was no reply. Many/most new users on the Ask site do not read old questions. Of the small number that do, most of them either know how to file a bug or learn very quickly. So I don't think that me filing bugs for people will have much value in leading by example (but I could be wrong...). Only file bugs for others when you can reproduce the bug. Otherwise guide them through filing their bug themselves. This also makes the motivation for a reproduction scenario clear to the other guy. So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. It's a novel idea, having people start on Askbot and then having them learn how to use the bugtracker later, and it's not something I'm entirely opposed to, but it's a very drastic change to how we've been using FDO and the Ask site up until now. Note that experienced users will should be encouraged to stay with fdo (and will likely do so all by themselves). So: If you now what bugzilla is, go with it, otherwise better stay with askbot. If you have (experienced users: bugzilla) behind on the feedback page, you can hopefully divide the stream at that point already successfull as those saying oh, I know bugzilla will go for it and those who do not will evade (experienced users: UNKNOWN_THING). Best, Bjoern -- -- Greetings, Rob Snelders __**_ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.**org LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/**mailman/listinfo/libreofficehttp://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Other projects use something like that. I think it wont have any privacy issues if all you collect is system specifications. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote: On 07/21/2013 11:22 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: I am not trying to hijack this thread. I was thinking also in conjunction with an online version of the BSA is there something we can code into LO which integrates with the BSA that way if people go to help and submit a but a window pops up with version os etc and a text box to type in the issue. This has been discussed a bit and from my understanding it's a) quite a bit of work b) might have some legal issues in terms of privacy if we're collecting data automatically. Best, Joel -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
I am not trying to hijack this thread. I was thinking also in conjunction with an online version of the BSA is there something we can code into LO which integrates with the BSA that way if people go to help and submit a but a window pops up with version os etc and a text box to type in the issue. On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Rob Snelders libreoff...@ertai.nl wrote: Hi All, My little contribution. I think we are going the wrong way totally. When the dev-list found gerrit it wasn't quite what they wanted. But they took it, tweaked it and are now using it, with great success (afaik). And here we are trying to create something new that stands between what we have as bugzilla and the ask-site. Why are we trying to take this hughe detour to get what we want? I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Then we can make the bugs less complex and use usefull subcomponents. But then we can also install plugins we think are usefull. Tweaking bugzilla then so it comes really close with what we need is better then. Yes this is a road that needs time invested. But that is also needed for the other road. Just my €0,02 -- Greetings, Rob Snelders On 16-07-13 00:33, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 05:59:37PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I did that and I was told to stop. One big problem with Ask admins reporting a bug for a user is that the reporter isthe Ask admin. Do you run OSX 10.7? Do you run Windows Vista? I don't, so when a dev comes back and asks me for repro steps, I have to shrug and say Go talk to user XYZ on the Ask site and as you said, the devs don't use the Ask site! Yeah, its probably best to suggest users to file a bug and offer to help them along on #libreoffice-qa once the bug is triaged roughly. I dont think we need to bother with bugs as long as those are obviously not welltriaged. Another problem is that if they haven't provided enough information, we can't tag the question as NEEDINFO and let the Ask system pester them for more information (although this would be a *great* improvement that I'd like to see!) THB, I did something similar with a question recently: Asked a long idle incomplete question if there is an update on the missing info and then closed it as outdated a few days later as there was no reply. Many/most new users on the Ask site do not read old questions. Of the small number that do, most of them either know how to file a bug or learn very quickly. So I don't think that me filing bugs for people will have much value in leading by example (but I could be wrong...). Only file bugs for others when you can reproduce the bug. Otherwise guide them through filing their bug themselves. This also makes the motivation for a reproduction scenario clear to the other guy. So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. It's a novel idea, having people start on Askbot and then having them learn how to use the bugtracker later, and it's not something I'm entirely opposed to, but it's a very drastic change to how we've been using FDO and the Ask site up until now. Note that experienced users will should be encouraged to stay with fdo (and will likely do so all by themselves). So: If you now what bugzilla is, go with it, otherwise better stay with askbot. If you have (experienced users: bugzilla) behind on the feedback page, you can hopefully divide the stream at that point already successfull as those saying oh, I know bugzilla will go for it and those who do not will evade (experienced users: UNKNOWN_THING). Best, Bjoern -- -- Greetings, Rob Snelders __**_ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.**org libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/**mailman/listinfo/libreofficehttp://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
(Apologies if I'm a couple of days late to the party...catching up on emails here) On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Rob Snelders r...@ertai.nl wrote: I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Yes, many of us agree. But we've punted on that in the past for a variety of reasons. Perhaps it's time to revisit the question and see if now is a good time to move to our own Bugzilla. On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote: When they sign up they sign up for both FDO Ask in one go so then they'll never have to worry about this again. Two accounts...same password, or? Also giving them two accounts at the same time might be a bit confusing (but there are two sites, so there might not be a good way around that). What about using OpenID for both sites? (esp. if we ran our own OpenID server for all of this, or otherwise gave them a single identity for their LibreOffice logins) --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi Rob, On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 23:48 +0200, Rob Snelders wrote: My little contribution. Great to hear from you :-) I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Then we can make the bugs less complex and use useful subcomponents. Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) One of the problems though IIRC was directing obvious support questions away from bugzilla to reduce triage load. Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? But of course this is not my world, so I'll butt out :-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 09:35:55AM +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) I guess, the 30% BSA bugs come from the fact that most bugs need a bit of back and forth with the report -- which still happens exclusively on bugzilla. Also I dont think thats bad, if people who come back use bugzilla once they found their way around in it -- actually that is a Good Thing. IMHO we should look at primarily is first-bugs-filed at bugzilla, not those filing their second, third, tenth bug: If even people who never used bugzilla or the BSA also go for bugzilla, we should indeed look at that. However, my suspicion still is: - people go to BSA - BSA tells them to get a fdo bugzilla account - they request one, and wait for the mail they need to confirm - they get some friendly welcome mail from bugzilla telling them they can now start filing bugs (and of course link to _bugzilla_ and not the BSA) The last step is breaking the BSA workflow. Of course, if it were _our_ bugzilla, we could change that. ;) Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? I dont think adding pages would do any good, but we could/should: - have a link to IRC #libreoffice-qa on all pages of the BSA (like we have it in the footer of gerrit) - possibly more work: - trigger on words/phrases like cant find or how and then ask people, if they are needing support and offering a link to ask then(*). Best, Bjoern (*) Although that sucks, too: - go to BSA - create bugzilla account, get no link back to BSA - go there on your own - Start describing your issue - get told you should use ask instead - click link - need OpenID login - describe problem _again_ ... ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:12:34PM -0700, bfoman wrote: I think having separate page for code reviews (gerrit), bugs (own customized Bugzilla with integrated BSA), support (ask-site) and feedback (input) is a good idea. I miss other systems like telemetry data (metrics.mozilla.com) or crash reporting data (crash-stats.mozilla.com). The problem there is deduplication and the amounts of channels. Many devs do not even look at ask, so Im still conflicted on adding mozillas input thingie, which I assume will be even less read by developers, thus possibly ending us in a in space no one can hears you scream situation(*). Best, Bjoern (*) see also: moztrap, which has only resulted in limited feedback to the project so far. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On 07/20/2013 08:31 AM, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi, On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 09:35:55AM +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) I guess, the 30% BSA bugs come from the fact that most bugs need a bit of back and forth with the report -- which still happens exclusively on bugzilla. Also I dont think thats bad, if people who come back use bugzilla once they found their way around in it -- actually that is a Good Thing. IMHO we should look at primarily is first-bugs-filed at bugzilla, not those filing their second, third, tenth bug: If even people who never used bugzilla or the BSA also go for bugzilla, we should indeed look at that. However, my suspicion still is: - people go to BSA - BSA tells them to get a fdo bugzilla account - they request one, and wait for the mail they need to confirm - they get some friendly welcome mail from bugzilla telling them they can now start filing bugs (and of course link to _bugzilla_ and not the BSA) The last step is breaking the BSA workflow. Of course, if it were _our_ bugzilla, we could change that. ;) Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? I dont think adding pages would do any good, but we could/should: - have a link to IRC #libreoffice-qa on all pages of the BSA (like we have it in the footer of gerrit) - possibly more work: - trigger on words/phrases like cant find or how and then ask people, if they are needing support and offering a link to ask then(*). Best, Bjoern (*) Although that sucks, too: - go to BSA - create bugzilla account, get no link back to BSA - go there on your own - Start describing your issue - get told you should use ask instead - click link - need OpenID login - describe problem _again_ ... Hm how about this instead. The landing site starts with the login and a notice on the bottom about needing an account. When they sign up they sign up for both FDO Ask in one go so then they'll never have to worry about this again. From here it asks is this a bug or some such thing (happy/sad face) and depending on that - it goes to the same BSA but the result of submitting goes to Ask or FDO depending on what they put. Then there is no repetition on their side Just thinking out loud here - I think we have a few opinions flying around and it'd be nice to be on the same page (at least kind of?) 1. Landing page/no landing page - seems like Bjoern is very hesitant about any landing page while others think it's an okay idea to let users sort their own bugs. If we can avoid duplication of work by users I think that's the biggest issue for Bjoern while overloading Ask admins or QA personnel in screening bugs/non bugs and directing users is the other fear. 2. At what point should user login or be required to have a login - IMHO they should just get one immediately - then there is no need to deal with it later and ultimately, we want our users to have a login to FDO as it acts as a barrier when they don't for both reporting bugs getting involved. 3. Our own bugzilla - I think QA has decided that this is the long term goal really as we keep having to do workarounds on BSA to deal with the limitations of FDO. I know Tollef said it is probably time for us to have our own as he keeps having to do conditional statements if product = LibreOffice do all these special requests that they keep pouring on. Also lately it seems like the FDO admins might be even more overwhelmed than usual as some of our agreed upon changes are taking a long time to implement. Of course I don't blame FDO as I know they are stretched thin but if we had more control we could just get some of these things done in an hour or less - such as a warning about responding via email updating the text for version. Warm Regards, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote The problem there is deduplication and the amounts of channels. Many devs do not even look at ask, so Im still conflicted on adding mozillas input thingie, which I assume will be even less read by developers, thus possibly ending us in a in space no one can hears you scream situation(*). Hi! I think that every service has its purpose and its own target audience. Ask site is for support heroes, input as a whiteboard and scream at us service could be ideal for marketing, UI and QA guys. All actionable items should be filed in Bugzilla only and it should be the main devs channel to look at to pick up bugs, request QA action, etc. When all info is delivered Gerrit is used when they want to contribute the code. Duplication and misuse of targeted services by users is inevitable. Mozilla for instance had the same problem with bugzillasumo, sumomo. Fortunately you can build dedicated volunteer teams around those services who will clean them up. QA is fighting with unconfirmeds, duplicates and needinfos in Bugzilla, not mentioning a workflow for non English reports setup recently. I am sure there are Ask heroes doing the same triage. Moztrap - I completely forgot about this service. Well, it is advertised on the wiki as a critical part of beta and rc testing, but in real life it is not a blocker before each release or including new features in a stable release (Personas for instance as a late feature). There weren't any Moztrap test day campaigns during 4.1 beta and rc stage. Also during 4.0 test marathon it was mentioned only in one sentence. Even Joel's blog post summarizing the event doesn't mention it, so there is no wonder that only few use it. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Send-Feedback-and-BSA-ideas-tp4065207p4066396.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi All, My little contribution. I think we are going the wrong way totally. When the dev-list found gerrit it wasn't quite what they wanted. But they took it, tweaked it and are now using it, with great success (afaik). And here we are trying to create something new that stands between what we have as bugzilla and the ask-site. Why are we trying to take this hughe detour to get what we want? I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Then we can make the bugs less complex and use usefull subcomponents. But then we can also install plugins we think are usefull. Tweaking bugzilla then so it comes really close with what we need is better then. Yes this is a road that needs time invested. But that is also needed for the other road. Just my €0,02 -- Greetings, Rob Snelders On 16-07-13 00:33, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 05:59:37PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I did that and I was told to stop. One big problem with Ask admins reporting a bug for a user is that the reporter isthe Ask admin. Do you run OSX 10.7? Do you run Windows Vista? I don't, so when a dev comes back and asks me for repro steps, I have to shrug and say Go talk to user XYZ on the Ask site and as you said, the devs don't use the Ask site! Yeah, its probably best to suggest users to file a bug and offer to help them along on #libreoffice-qa once the bug is triaged roughly. I dont think we need to bother with bugs as long as those are obviously not welltriaged. Another problem is that if they haven't provided enough information, we can't tag the question as NEEDINFO and let the Ask system pester them for more information (although this would be a *great* improvement that I'd like to see!) THB, I did something similar with a question recently: Asked a long idle incomplete question if there is an update on the missing info and then closed it as outdated a few days later as there was no reply. Many/most new users on the Ask site do not read old questions. Of the small number that do, most of them either know how to file a bug or learn very quickly. So I don't think that me filing bugs for people will have much value in leading by example (but I could be wrong...). Only file bugs for others when you can reproduce the bug. Otherwise guide them through filing their bug themselves. This also makes the motivation for a reproduction scenario clear to the other guy. So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. It's a novel idea, having people start on Askbot and then having them learn how to use the bugtracker later, and it's not something I'm entirely opposed to, but it's a very drastic change to how we've been using FDO and the Ask site up until now. Note that experienced users will should be encouraged to stay with fdo (and will likely do so all by themselves). So: If you now what bugzilla is, go with it, otherwise better stay with askbot. If you have (experienced users: bugzilla) behind on the feedback page, you can hopefully divide the stream at that point already successfull as those saying oh, I know bugzilla will go for it and those who do not will evade (experienced users: UNKNOWN_THING). Best, Bjoern -- -- Greetings, Rob Snelders ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:42:03AM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: The important part on the mozilla feedback page is not the layout (dont get me wrong: showing a smiley to someone angry at us is a Good Thing for mitigating the pain), but the relevant part is IMHO what to do with the feedback, not some small bandaid for someone who got hurt. Having walked trough the feedback page, after saying you are happy with Firefox, you get to: https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/thanks/#happy pimping new builds, a Contribute page, their Feedback Dashboard, and their twitter/facebook/Mozilla(*). That dashboard is of course the thing that is really doing the work: https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/ but there we are getting closer to what the real purpose of this thing is. You can e.g. enter bookmark and see: - how much feedback you get on that topic (as in relevance) - how much good and bad feedback you get - the locales and OS of those - you even might see if how relevant e.g. some heisenbug is all in all, it seems nifty(**), but might be a bit more work to set up (unless Mozilla is maybe sharing their code with us?). Best, Bjoern (*) and https://input.mozilla.org/en-US/thanks/#sad looks the same. (**) apart from being yet another feedback channel in addition to bugzilla in addition to askbot, thus another area to do deduplication across nonintegrated tools. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi Björn, *, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:18:07PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: So it sounds like some kind of differentiation page (ala Mozilla) could be our biggest win here. I'll try to mock-up an example of how this would look, and perhaps we can test it out at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/ for a bit and see if there's a reduction in bug reports that aren't really bugs. Getting too far with mock-ups is always dangerous, as you risk creating something what the dev waves away as that too complex, I wont start on that -- so going ahead, Id suggest contacting someone willing and able to implement this early on -- in this case maybe Cloph -- to see where the real troubles in implementation are. Well, if there /is/ a mockup, then implementation is not the biggest problem. If the mockup consists of html and css, then even better, then the effort to add it to the site is minimal. The tough part is deciding on what to actually put onto the page. Some initial made me happy/sad feedback-mockups expended to a twitter entry field - so not something I personally would consider appropriate for the page, when the goal is to prevent questions being filed to bugzilla. I'm happy to help out with changing a mockup into html, given any graphical elements (button images) are provided. But the design/content must be done by someone else :-) ciao Christian ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 07:07:36PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: b) Robinson's main point about ask site is that they don't have the man power to be QA's screeners - I think that summarizes his stance in the nicest way possible :) Basically what we are doing is asking the Ask admins to be QA screeners or for QA to get involved with Ask which - if we do that, they might as well just report on FDO and QA can avoid getting used to the dealings over in the Ask world. You might get some accidental confirmation by this though: - people will find dupes - people will post happens to me toos - people will upvote things that they can confirm I'd like to keep as much of the bug lifecycle in FDO. The more that happens on the Ask site, the more that gets lots and Isn't copied-over to a bug report. I've had users on the Ask site continue to ask about the progress of a Question that has a clear bug has been filed here link. The same thing happens with people me-too'ing a Question/bug instead of going to FDO and posting their comments there. I think a move to fdo should not happen for unconfirmed reports there, but only for those implicitly or explicitly confirmed by feedback from others. That sounds like you're asking for bug repro to happen on the Ask site. I really think that repro should happen only on FDO, or else we're going to run into duplication, etc... Never having stuff go in directly via BSA would be bad too and it would block the migration of enduser to slowly turn into contributors. As such, it might be better to do it like this: - LibreOffice made me sad! - Was LibreOffice doing something unexpected or can we help you solving a specific problem? = askbot, unanswered question - Was there a clearly reproducable wrong behaviour (bug) you would like to report? (for advanced users, if unsure use the option above) = BSA - No, I have a different/generic complaint. = these are tricky. Reply to email Thanks for your feedback and then send to some private mailing list, for some poor sob to parse through? So it sounds like some kind of differentiation page (ala Mozilla) could be our biggest win here. I'll try to mock-up an example of how this would look, and perhaps we can test it out at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/ for a bit and see if there's a reduction in bug reports that aren't really bugs. --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi Robinson, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:18:07PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Bjoern Michaelsen I'd like to keep as much of the bug lifecycle in FDO. The more that happens on the Ask site, the more that gets lots and Isn't copied-over to a bug report. I've had users on the Ask site continue to ask about the progress of a Question that has a clear bug has been filed here link. The same thing happens with people me-too'ing a Question/bug instead of going to FDO and posting their comments there. In a perfect world all bugs are on fdo and all support stuff/tips are on ask only. In the real world not everyone will be on both platforms: Most devs are not on ask, many users will not understand bugzilla on their first report. Thus, no matter what you will do, you will have duplication there. Of course, we are aiming for users to get as close as possible to the devs -- thus on bugzilla. Still that cant be learned by telling them you should have filed the bug on that system which you dont understand. Instead let them use a system they feel they understand because its text only (askbot) and if they have provided all the info that is needed, create the bug on fdo for them and link to it. This will show the user (and others walking by) how to file a bug properly with a real world example. So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:18:07PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: So it sounds like some kind of differentiation page (ala Mozilla) could be our biggest win here. I'll try to mock-up an example of how this would look, and perhaps we can test it out at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/ for a bit and see if there's a reduction in bug reports that aren't really bugs. Getting too far with mock-ups is always dangerous, as you risk creating something what the dev waves away as that too complex, I wont start on that -- so going ahead, Id suggest contacting someone willing and able to implement this early on -- in this case maybe Cloph -- to see where the real troubles in implementation are. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: Still that cant be learned by telling them you should have filed the bug on that system which you dont understand Hmm...I think that if someone wants to report a bug, we should send them to the bug tracker. I'd like to head them off before they've already written up a question on the Ask site, but that's just my suggestion. Instead let them use a system they feel they understand because its text only (askbot) and if they have provided all the info that is needed, create the bug on fdo for them and link to it. I did that and I was told to stop. One big problem with Ask admins reporting a bug for a user is that the reporter isthe Ask admin. Do you run OSX 10.7? Do you run Windows Vista? I don't, so when a dev comes back and asks me for repro steps, I have to shrug and say Go talk to user XYZ on the Ask site and as you said, the devs don't use the Ask site! Another problem is that if they haven't provided enough information, we can't tag the question as NEEDINFO and let the Ask system pester them for more information (although this would be a *great* improvement that I'd like to see!) This will show the user (and others walking by) how to file a bug properly with a real world example. Many/most new users on the Ask site do not read old questions. Of the small number that do, most of them either know how to file a bug or learn very quickly. So I don't think that me filing bugs for people will have much value in leading by example (but I could be wrong...). So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. It's a novel idea, having people start on Askbot and then having them learn how to use the bugtracker later, and it's not something I'm entirely opposed to, but it's a very drastic change to how we've been using FDO and the Ask site up until now. One thing I've envisioned (and discussed with Joel) is an upgrade to the BSA that would be as simple to an end-user as submitting a Question on the Ask site. The user could submit just a bug title/subject and a body, and then (optionally) submit OS information, version #, etc. This solution would give them a submission system they feel they understand because its text only, and would solve my concerns about the bug not being on FDO and not being submitted in their name. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to make a big upgrade to the BSA (and neither does Rob), so that's why my suggestion is to start with the differentiation page, which is something I could put together this week. Cheers, --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:18:07PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: So it sounds like some kind of differentiation page (ala Mozilla) could be our biggest win here. I'll try to mock-up an example of how this would look, and perhaps we can test it out at https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/feedback/ for a bit and see if there's a reduction in bug reports that aren't really bugs. Getting too far with mock-ups is always dangerous, as you risk creating something what the dev waves away as that too complex, I wont start on that -- so going ahead, Id suggest contacting someone willing and able to implement this early on -- in this case maybe Cloph -- to see where the real troubles in implementation are. I know that everyone has been very busy, so I was planning to implement the differentiation page myself. If Cloph or someone else would like to do it, I am more than happy to give them the work^H^H^H^H^H glory and go attack the weeds in my garden :-) Cheers, --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 06:05:09PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I know that everyone has been very busy, so I was planning to implement the differentiation page myself. If Cloph or someone else would like to do it, I am more than happy to give them the work^H^H^H^H^H glory and go attack the weeds in my garden :-) Oh, if you want to do the *cough* glory *cough* that would be awesome of course! Still needs some coordination with the infra team for deployment in the end, but we will manage that, I guess. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 05:59:37PM -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I did that and I was told to stop. One big problem with Ask admins reporting a bug for a user is that the reporter isthe Ask admin. Do you run OSX 10.7? Do you run Windows Vista? I don't, so when a dev comes back and asks me for repro steps, I have to shrug and say Go talk to user XYZ on the Ask site and as you said, the devs don't use the Ask site! Yeah, its probably best to suggest users to file a bug and offer to help them along on #libreoffice-qa once the bug is triaged roughly. I dont think we need to bother with bugs as long as those are obviously not welltriaged. Another problem is that if they haven't provided enough information, we can't tag the question as NEEDINFO and let the Ask system pester them for more information (although this would be a *great* improvement that I'd like to see!) THB, I did something similar with a question recently: Asked a long idle incomplete question if there is an update on the missing info and then closed it as outdated a few days later as there was no reply. Many/most new users on the Ask site do not read old questions. Of the small number that do, most of them either know how to file a bug or learn very quickly. So I don't think that me filing bugs for people will have much value in leading by example (but I could be wrong...). Only file bugs for others when you can reproduce the bug. Otherwise guide them through filing their bug themselves. This also makes the motivation for a reproduction scenario clear to the other guy. So: Give the people a smooth migration path towards bugzilla and allow them to test the waters on askbot, instead of a migration scenario that requires a sleep all-in learning curve, which will make a lot of them just turn away. It's a novel idea, having people start on Askbot and then having them learn how to use the bugtracker later, and it's not something I'm entirely opposed to, but it's a very drastic change to how we've been using FDO and the Ask site up until now. Note that experienced users will should be encouraged to stay with fdo (and will likely do so all by themselves). So: If you now what bugzilla is, go with it, otherwise better stay with askbot. If you have (experienced users: bugzilla) behind on the feedback page, you can hopefully divide the stream at that point already successfull as those saying oh, I know bugzilla will go for it and those who do not will evade (experienced users: UNKNOWN_THING). Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 07:07:36PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: b) Robinson's main point about ask site is that they don't have the man power to be QA's screeners - I think that summarizes his stance in the nicest way possible :) Basically what we are doing is asking the Ask admins to be QA screeners or for QA to get involved with Ask which - if we do that, they might as well just report on FDO and QA can avoid getting used to the dealings over in the Ask world. You might get some accidental confirmation by this though: - people will find dupes - people will post happens to me toos - people will upvote things that they can confirm and all of this can happen without breaking the conventions of ask, while e.g. me toos are (rightfully) frowned upon on bugzilla and we have no votes on bugzilla. If we just send people to ask, they report what is a bug but that has to first wait for Ask site admins to clear it as a bug, then either send them over to FDO or if Robinson made a button that just said this looks like a bug but doesn't actually do the confirmation so it just jumps over to FDO as an UNCONFIRMED bug waiting for QA to tackle itthis seems very time consuming. I think a move to fdo should not happen for unconfirmed reports there, but only for those implicitly or explicitly confirmed by feedback from others. I even wonder, if _not_ having a button there would be better. Once a askbot question can be promoted to a bug, we can ask the reporter to do so, offering help along the way. This: - is a positive thing for him/her as it acknowledges the issue he has - as help is offered directly, he/she is more confident to ask back - thus we grow another member how is: - able to use bugzilla - able to teach others about it on ask Give a man a fish and he will have food for a day. Teach a man ... I'm not sure if other Ask admins have an opinion but I think they (whoever you are) should be involved with this conversation if we're asking them to do more work. http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/users/by-group/3/everyone/ Note that while QA members do not see this anymore as they are used to it, askbots free form is a _lot_ easier to understand than bugzilla or even BSA for your average user, were filling out stuff needs you to have understood quite a few concepts about release cycles, software development, QA in general. OTOH, I missed out bugzilla/BSA completely from my proposal at the end of the last mail. Never having stuff go in directly via BSA would be bad too and it would block the migration of enduser to slowly turn into contributors. As such, it might be better to do it like this: - LibreOffice made me sad! - Was LibreOffice doing something unexpected or can we help you solving a specific problem? = askbot, unanswered question - Was there a clearly reproducable wrong behaviour (bug) you would like to report? (for advanced users, if unsure use the option above) = BSA - No, I have a different/generic complaint. = these are tricky. Reply to email Thanks for your feedback and then send to some private mailing list, for some poor sob to parse through? This allows people to go for the BSA(*) when they are reasonably sure about themselves, but also allows them to use askbot as fallback (e.g. run into BSA, dont understand what it says, but remembering is for advanced users, thus going back and go with askbot instead). I think the key here is to have a nicely sloped learning curve with no insurmountable barriers along the way, where you need the tunnel effect to get through. ;) Best, Bjoern (*) And _that_ will lead them to bugzilla, if there is any discussion on the bug. And there almost always is. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
2013/7/12 Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com Hi All, After a long discussion with Robinson we came up with a quasi workable plan for what we hope to be the new setup for send feedback... - I think currently there are a couple problems with the send feedback button within LibreOffice: a) Send Feedback... implies more than just bug reporting but currently it's only linked to BSA b) It is assumed that the increase of user support questions being submitted as bug reports is coming from send feedback... c) BSA requires additional logins - so if a user wants to submit feedback they have to get an account So here was the idea(s): Landing page similar to Mozilla's (smiley face/frowny face) with perhaps 2 or 3 options - user support, bug report, maybe get involved or some such thing If they click bug report it would go to BSA but to address Bjoern's concern about the number of steps required to report a bug (ie. mandatory to get an account, sign in, etc...) we would allow users to report without an account but give the option to get an account and explain how it's helpful to have one. The idea is that if the user chooses to submit without an account, the bug will be reported under a default account (possibly b...@tdfplanet.org), they will be forced to enter an email address and do a captcha - then their email address would go into the bug report as a CC'ed user. So this would affect BSA as a whole - the negative(s): 1. Reporters won't be as accurate any more - but honestly I'm not sure if we care about this 2. Reporters will need an account if they are going to comment on their bug in the future, may result in NEEDINFO's going stagnant butthis is the case anyways probably not going to result in a huge increase. Currently Mozilla (which we discussed during ESC) doesn't force a user account so, if we can emulate this and get to a landing page which avoids having to sign up for accounts - might be a good thing. Before we move forward looking for feedback, Robinson feel free to expand on anything that I missed. Warm Regards, Joel Sounds good to me, Joel, particularly than part about not requiring a user account Henri ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
[Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi All, After a long discussion with Robinson we came up with a quasi workable plan for what we hope to be the new setup for send feedback... - I think currently there are a couple problems with the send feedback button within LibreOffice: a) Send Feedback... implies more than just bug reporting but currently it's only linked to BSA b) It is assumed that the increase of user support questions being submitted as bug reports is coming from send feedback... c) BSA requires additional logins - so if a user wants to submit feedback they have to get an account So here was the idea(s): Landing page similar to Mozilla's (smiley face/frowny face) with perhaps 2 or 3 options - user support, bug report, maybe get involved or some such thing If they click bug report it would go to BSA but to address Bjoern's concern about the number of steps required to report a bug (ie. mandatory to get an account, sign in, etc...) we would allow users to report without an account but give the option to get an account and explain how it's helpful to have one. The idea is that if the user chooses to submit without an account, the bug will be reported under a default account (possibly b...@tdfplanet.org), they will be forced to enter an email address and do a captcha - then their email address would go into the bug report as a CC'ed user. So this would affect BSA as a whole - the negative(s): 1. Reporters won't be as accurate any more - but honestly I'm not sure if we care about this 2. Reporters will need an account if they are going to comment on their bug in the future, may result in NEEDINFO's going stagnant butthis is the case anyways probably not going to result in a huge increase. Currently Mozilla (which we discussed during ESC) doesn't force a user account so, if we can emulate this and get to a landing page which avoids having to sign up for accounts - might be a good thing. Before we move forward looking for feedback, Robinson feel free to expand on anything that I missed. Warm Regards, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, After a long discussion with Robinson we came up with a quasi workable plan for what we hope to be the new setup for send feedback... ... ... Before we move forward looking for feedback, Robinson feel free to expand on anything that I missed. That's a pretty complete summary of our plan, so nothing big from me :-) It might be worthwhile to ping a few of our counterparts at Mozilla and see if they have any suggestions for us -- maybe some lessons learned based on what they've implemented. Or we could just jump in and get started coding, too :-) --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 12:06:00PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: The idea is that if the user chooses to submit without an account, the bug will be reported under a default account (possibly b...@tdfplanet.org), they will be forced to enter an email address and do a captcha - then their email address would go into the bug report as a CC'ed user. Hmm. Two questions: a/ how do you cc an email address that has no bugzilla account? AFAIK, that doesnt work? b/ using unverified emails for such things is icky. How do we know people dont abuse it? (actually a/ is a result of b/) Currently Mozilla (which we discussed during ESC) doesn't force a user account so, if we can emulate this and get to a landing page which avoids having to sign up for accounts - might be a good thing. Before we move forward looking for feedback, Robinson feel free to expand on anything that I missed. I would still let the feedback go to askbot with a easily queriable tag. We could ask people for an OpenID or an email. In the first case we are luring people in (and askbots gamification with badges might do its magic from there on) and for the pure email solution, we would need cronjob polling the generated question on askbot and send updates to the reporter. These updates might lure the reporter back (and _then_ do a OpenID login to keep involved). There are a bazillion problems with the emailing still: - How to unsubscribe (e.g. if the question gets huge activity)? - How to avoid abuse, false and unverified emails etc.? The important part on the mozilla feedback page is not the layout (dont get me wrong: showing a smiley to someone angry at us is a Good Thing for mitigating the pain), but the relevant part is IMHO what to do with the feedback, not some small bandaid for someone who got hurt. So what to do after the happy/sad intro? IMHO it could be something like this: Did LibreOffice made you happy or sad? - LibreOffice made me happy! - Was it something cool, that you might want to share as a tip with others so they can do it too? = askbot, self-answered question (aka knowledgebase entry) - Was it a generic LibreOffice feature you experienced? Describe it below, and click the button, to post this on your twitter/g+/facebook page. - LibreOffice made me sad! - Was LibreOffice doing something unexpected or can we help you solving a specific problem? = askbot, unanswered question - No, I have a different/generic complaint. = these are tricky. Reply to email Thanks for your feedback and then send to some private mailing list, for some poor sob to parse through? Im still uneasy about this without a clearer definition of some poor sob and a good story how to motivate that work. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
I'll wait to respond to the whole email from Bjoern but just two quick points (I'm in heavy moving mode and wife is waiting on me right now ;) ) a) good point about ccindeed an issue that is unresolvable. b) Robinson's main point about ask site is that they don't have the man power to be QA's screeners - I think that summarizes his stance in the nicest way possible :) Basically what we are doing is asking the Ask admins to be QA screeners or for QA to get involved with Ask which - if we do that, they might as well just report on FDO and QA can avoid getting used to the dealings over in the Ask world. If we just send people to ask, they report what is a bug but that has to first wait for Ask site admins to clear it as a bug, then either send them over to FDO or if Robinson made a button that just said this looks like a bug but doesn't actually do the confirmation so it just jumps over to FDO as an UNCONFIRMED bug waiting for QA to tackle itthis seems very time consuming. I'm not sure if other Ask admins have an opinion but I think they (whoever you are) should be involved with this conversation if we're asking them to do more work. Another option (maybe?) is to automatically setup an account for people when they report via BSA - not requiring them to do it but instead when they put in an email address it creates the BSA/FDO account with a random password and instructions on how they can change it. Just thinking out loud. Best, Joel On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: Hi, On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 12:06:00PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: The idea is that if the user chooses to submit without an account, the bug will be reported under a default account (possibly b...@tdfplanet.org), they will be forced to enter an email address and do a captcha - then their email address would go into the bug report as a CC'ed user. Hmm. Two questions: a/ how do you cc an email address that has no bugzilla account? AFAIK, that doesnt work? b/ using unverified emails for such things is icky. How do we know people dont abuse it? (actually a/ is a result of b/) Currently Mozilla (which we discussed during ESC) doesn't force a user account so, if we can emulate this and get to a landing page which avoids having to sign up for accounts - might be a good thing. Before we move forward looking for feedback, Robinson feel free to expand on anything that I missed. I would still let the feedback go to askbot with a easily queriable tag. We could ask people for an OpenID or an email. In the first case we are luring people in (and askbots gamification with badges might do its magic from there on) and for the pure email solution, we would need cronjob polling the generated question on askbot and send updates to the reporter. These updates might lure the reporter back (and _then_ do a OpenID login to keep involved). There are a bazillion problems with the emailing still: - How to unsubscribe (e.g. if the question gets huge activity)? - How to avoid abuse, false and unverified emails etc.? The important part on the mozilla feedback page is not the layout (dont get me wrong: showing a smiley to someone angry at us is a Good Thing for mitigating the pain), but the relevant part is IMHO what to do with the feedback, not some small bandaid for someone who got hurt. So what to do after the happy/sad intro? IMHO it could be something like this: Did LibreOffice made you happy or sad? - LibreOffice made me happy! - Was it something cool, that you might want to share as a tip with others so they can do it too? = askbot, self-answered question (aka knowledgebase entry) - Was it a generic LibreOffice feature you experienced? Describe it below, and click the button, to post this on your twitter/g+/facebook page. - LibreOffice made me sad! - Was LibreOffice doing something unexpected or can we help you solving a specific problem? = askbot, unanswered question - No, I have a different/generic complaint. = these are tricky. Reply to email Thanks for your feedback and then send to some private mailing list, for some poor sob to parse through? Im still uneasy about this without a clearer definition of some poor sob and a good story how to motivate that work. Best, Bjoern -- *Joel Madero* LibreOffice QA Volunteer jmadero@gmail.com ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
