[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||3062

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98
   ||544

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Mihkel Tõnnov  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||6835

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Mihkel Tõnnov  changed:

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 CC||mihh...@gmail.com

--- Comment #29 from Mihkel Tõnnov  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #28)
> (In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #27)
> > That's not just a little glitch, that's a crunchy bug, and also the default
> > presets were wrongly chosen, clearly one normally does not want to ignore
> > diacritics.
> 
> Not in Arabic or in languages where diacritics are not parts of the letters
> (in Arabic خالد and خَالِدْ are the same word). It is just like
> case-insensitive search being the default.

Could we have a per-language/locale default settings for these two options
perhaps, regardless of how they are phrased? There are quite big differences in
the "status" of letters with diacritics (or "diacritics") also among languages
that are written in Latin script.

On the one side, there are languages like English, French, and German, where ä,
ö, ü, é/ê/è/ë etc. are considered variations of the "base" letter (so a/ä, o/ö,
etc. are also collated together in dictionaries).

On the other side are languages like Estonian, Finnish, Icelandic, Swedish,
Latvian, Hungarian, Polish, where ä, å, á, ā etc. are considered to be separate
letters in their own right, and therefore shouldn't be ignored/merged during
searching, at least not by default.

For instance in Estonian, treating a/ä, o/õ/ö, u/ü, s/š, z/ž as equivalent
makes almost* zero sense - when searching for either of the words in pairs like
laas/lääs, too/töö, loog/lõõg, sokk/šokk, the other one should not be matched.
Similar principle applies in the other languages I mentioned, so the current
default setting is completely counter-intuitive for many users.

* "Almost zero" because treating õ/ö as equal might make sense in historical
texts (but that's a rather marginal usecase), and treating z/ž as equal makes
some sense because z/ž could only ever be confused in loanwords and foreign
names, e.g. people might not know without a dictionary if the Croatian capital
is called Zagreb or Žagreb. But that's minutia.

...And then there are cases like Lithuanian, where ą is considered independent
letter, while ã/à are considered variants of a, and are mainly used in
dictionaries to indicate stress/length.

I'll open a new enhancement request about this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #28 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to Eike Rathke from comment #27)
> That's not just a little glitch, that's a crunchy bug, and also the default
> presets were wrongly chosen, clearly one normally does not want to ignore
> diacritics.

Not in Arabic or in languages where diacritics are not parts of the letters (in
Arabic خالد and خَالِدْ are the same word). It is just like case-insensitive
search being the default.

> Additionally having Not-Diacritic-sensitive and
> Not-Kashida-sensitive being the implied defaults for every search adds
> specifically for ignore-diacritic a heavy extra performance penalty
> transliteration decomposing every text first to normalize diacritics.

I didn’t notice any performance difference last I tried this, but I didn’t do
any actual performance testing.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #27 from Eike Rathke  ---
That's not just a little glitch, that's a crunchy bug, and also the default
presets were wrongly chosen, clearly one normally does not want to ignore
diacritics. Additionally having Not-Diacritic-sensitive and
Not-Kashida-sensitive being the implied defaults for every search adds
specifically for ignore-diacritic a heavy extra performance penalty
transliteration decomposing every text first to normalize diacritics.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #26 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Have a little glitch with this change, see bug 116242

Find & Replace searches now break without checking the Diacritic-sensitive
checkbox, but that gets hidden when no CTL language is checked enabled.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||6242

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|easyHack, needsDevEval, |
   |topicDesign |
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #25 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #24)
> The XP XPS Viewer has “Include kashida” and Office 2010 has “Match kashida” 
> [1], 
> which for me are better wording choices.

Include Diacritics/Kashida was the first proposal and rejected here. MSDN
writes about Diacritics Sensitivity and IIRC some other big players too. 

(OT: This topic was like some other for a couple of weeks on the agenda and no
one commented. It's better to discuss beforehand the patch is submitted.)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #24 from Adolfo Jayme  ---
I don’t like the wording used in the patch. The XP XPS Viewer has “Include
kashida” and Office 2010 has “Match kashida” [1], which for me are better
wording choices.

[1]
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/office_global_experience/2010/08/11/find-and-replace-for-the-arabic-script/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #23 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Jim Raykowski committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=d4064927a2e83c974d4ee9538081e8a4fcdb1e34

tdf#111846 Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida options

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:6.0.0

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #22 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We discussed the topic in the design team and decided to use the patch. The
double negation with "[x] Ignore " to disable a function deteriorates the
usability. Suggestion is, however, to rename the function into "[ ]
-sensitive" to improve familiarity.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|102847  |113136


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102847
[Bug 102847] [META] Quick Find, Search and Replace
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113136
[Bug 113136] [META] Find & Replace Dialog
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #21 from Michael Meeks  ---
When it comes to Kashida - Khaled's opinion has the huge up-side of
being from someone who actually uses that -a-lot- ;-) what with being
an expert in this area. I also don't believe that the term 'Kashida'
or 'Diacritic' are going to be instantly obvious to any native English
person (FWIW) - just my 2 cents =)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #20 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #19)
> The 2 main reasons are stated in the initial post. From the UX point of view
> it's worth to discuss that and to take it into consideration.
> 
> Many search results in Google of "ignore diacritics" are developer-related.
> The search functionality of LibO is used by non-developers mostly. Also
> "include" is only a suggestion--a good and better term has to be found by
> English native speakers so that it will be understand immediately.

Inventing new jargon is unlikely to help users, unlike sticking to existing
nomenclature. That is similar to the never ending attempts to replace the
floppy disk save icon with some of thing modern just because someone thinks
this will help users who never saw an actual floppy disk.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #18 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)
> (In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #16)
> > It is also pretty much a standard term:
> > https://www.google.com.eg/
> > search?q=%22ignore+diacritics%22=%22ignore+diacritics%22 ...
> 
> The opposite search reveals a comparable number of results, 

Searching for https://www.google.com.eg/search?q=%22include+diacritics%22 does
not show any thing relevant.

> the same for
> "diacritic-sensitive" vs. "diacritic-insensitive". 
> 
> Would you prefer "[x] case-insensitive" over "[ ] case-sensitive" (we use '[
> ] Match case')? I'm 60/40.

I think the -ve/+ve is a red-herring, whatever popular term should be used.
Consistency just for the sake of it is meaningless.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #16)
> It is also pretty much a standard term:
> https://www.google.com.eg/
> search?q=%22ignore+diacritics%22=%22ignore+diacritics%22 ...

The opposite search reveals a comparable number of results, the same for
"diacritic-sensitive" vs. "diacritic-insensitive". 

Would you prefer "[x] case-insensitive" over "[ ] case-sensitive" (we use '[ ]
Match case')? I'm 60/40. 

(The case-insensitive term could be an alternative to 'ignore' when we decide
to keep the current logic.)

I've put the topic onto the design team agenda.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #16 from Khaled Hosny  ---
I don’t agree with the proposed change here or its rationale. “Ignore
diacritics/kashida” is pretty clear, while ”Include diacritic/kashida” is
ambiguous and it is not clear at all what kind of inclusion is supposed to
happen. It is also pretty much a standard term:
https://www.google.com.eg/search?q=%22ignore+diacritics%22=%22ignore+diacritics%22,
which can not be seen about the proposal here.

I think we are trying to fix a non-issue here.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Jim Raykowski from comment #14)
> Is there an easier way to change the commit message than to amend and commit
> again?

In Gerrit, click the first list item 'commit message' and go into edit mode by
clicking the icon next of 'Patch set x'.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #14 from Jim Raykowski  ---
link to commit

https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/43103/ 

Is there an easier way to change the commit message than to amend and commit
again?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #13 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Jim Raykowski from comment #12)
> Correct? 

Yes, that's the current behavior. Because checkboxes should phrase the action
in a positive way like "[x] Save on Close" instead of "[ ] Don't Save on Exit"
(kind of double negation) the proposal was to rephrase and to invert the logic
accordingly.

> Is this similar to what would be considered a unit test?

I'm not a programmer. Shinnok, is it?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #12 from Jim Raykowski  ---
Heiko your explanation of requirements and clear test cases are much
appreciated.

As originally proposed by Thomas "Include" seems to be the correct word to use
here.

Current behavior of changes made - 

[ ] Include diacritics: Hello is found in "Héllo World"
Hello is found in "Hello World"
[X] Include diacritics: Hello is not found in "Héllo World"
Hello is found in "Hello World" 

[ ] Include diacritics: Héllo is found in "Héllo World"
Héllo is found in "Hello World" 
[X] Include diacritics: Héllo is found in "Héllo World"
Héllo is not found in "Hello World" 

Correct? 

Is this similar to what would be considered a unit test?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The request is to rename the labels and to invert the internal logic so that
everything behaves as before. 

Current situation
[ ] Ignore diacritics: Hello is not found in "Héllo World"
[x] Ignore diacritics: Hello will be found in "Héllo World" 

Changed scenario
[x] Exact diacritics: Hello is not found in "Héllo World"
[ ] Exact diacritics: Hello will be found in "Héllo World"

(first option is the default)

I'm not a native speaker and perhaps someone has better ideas of 'use
diacritics in the search'. Perhaps 'Consider diacritics'.

The same applies to kashida, where 'exact' sounds weird to me.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #9 from Jim Raykowski  ---
Thanks for the tip on how to use the keyboard to enter diacritics. I actually
used the insert special characters from the standard toolbar to do some testing
and also found the insert->special character... in the menu. 

This task has given me appreciation for Ignore.

What follows is an attempt to relate my findings.

Using test document with multiple occurrences of 'Atest' with and without
diacritic above the A.

-'Atest' with diacritic entered in the Find: edit box
--'Include diacritics' checked 
'Find Next' moves to the next occurrence of 'Atest' with diacritic and skips
any 'Atest' without diacritic. 
--'Include diacritics' unchecked
Find Next' moves to next occurrence of 'Atest' with or without diacritic. 

-'Atest' without diacritic entered in the Find: edit box
--'Include diacritics' checked
'Find Next' moves to the next occurrence of 'Atest' without diacritic and skips
any 'Atest' with diacritic.
--'Include diacritics' unchecked
'Find Next' moves to the next occurrence of 'Atest' with or without diacritic.

It seems Include is not the logical opposite of Ignore. 
Looking forward to thoughts on this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #8 from Julien Nabet  ---
nitpick: in French, on "a" there's never acute accent but a grave accent "à"
Idem for "u" -> "ù"
On "e", you can have both : "é" and "è" and even circumflex "ê"

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6)
> use the French accent in á...

"acute" of course

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Jim Raykowski from comment #5)
> I have made the changes and would like to test them before committing but do
> not have a document that contains diacritics and kashida. Could you or
> someone supply a test document?

Great! (Let me check for more tasks if you are so fast *g*)

A simple document wouldn't help much when you want to search. Diacritics are
easy: use the French accent in á (press ' first then a, or just copy/paste).
Another character is the circumflex in ê (^ + e). In a sentence with Hêlló
Wôèrld you should find this term when [x] Ignore Diacritics is checked
(respectively according your changes) but not vice versa. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacritic

More difficult is the kashida. Wikipedia give the example الحمد vs الحمــد
(to me it looks like a straight line). When I enter the latter into a text and
search for the first it is found only when [x] Ignore Kashida is on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashida

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #5 from Jim Raykowski  ---
Heiko,

I have made the changes and would like to test them before committing but do
not have a document that contains diacritics and kashida. Could you or someone
supply a test document?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rayk...@gmail.com

--- Comment #4 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Jim, as you were successful with bug 112437 you may want to continue here.
Should be even more simple. Feel free to ask about UX/design at
#libreoffice-dev (htietze) or regarding development on #libreoffice-dev.

PS: Still in assigned state, is there more work to be done on the other issue?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |easyHack, needsDevEval,
   ||topicDesign
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |mentoring@documentfoundatio
   |.freedesktop.org|n.org,
   ||tietze.he...@gmail.com

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Sounds like an easyhack.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Adolfo Jayme  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|111990  |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111990
[Bug 111990] UX and enhancement issues favored by Thomas.Lendo
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

--- Comment #2 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #1)
> +1, but not just a simple string change. Won't the search logic also need to
> be toggled?
You're right, the logic must be toggled so that "not checkmarked" is the
default of this two options.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||111990
 Depends on|111990  |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111990
[Bug 111990] UX and enhancements enhancement issues favored by Thomas.Lendo
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||111990


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111990
[Bug 111990] UX and enhancements enhancement issues favored by Thomas.Lendo
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 111846] Find & Replace: Rename diacritics and kashida search options

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111846

Julien Nabet  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||serval2...@yahoo.fr

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