Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Malte Meyn]

Am 08.03.2018 um 02:01 schrieb Simon Albrecht:

On 08.03.2018 01:39, Edmundo Carmona Antoranz wrote:

So I asked
around[1] and apparently it's a "harmonic delay" or a prolongation...


There is no reason whatsoever for any fancy words. It’s just a dotted 
note with the dot written at the rhythmic position where it actually 
happens.
I’ve never seen any realisation of this in LilyPond – would be good to 
have an LSR snippet.


There is a thread at the German user forum: 
https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1789.0.html
I don’t have time to read it and explain in English but maybe Simon or 
Harm (who was involved in this thread) can help?


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Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Edmundo Carmona Antoranz]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> Rules that have evolved in the course of the 19th and 20th century and are
> certainly alien to the 18th.

I understand that the rules had changed over time and that back then
it was fine to do it that way.

> If you’re trying to turn this into an ‘authoritative’ representation as
> LilyPond code, fortunately there’s the option of coding it as a dotted note
> and if necessary displaying it with ties using the Completion_heads_engraver
> – a great tool for ancient music.
> And once there is a LilyPond engraver that can produce the original way of
> writing it, there will be no need of adjusting the content.

Talking specifically about using the dot right now, and letting
lilypond figure out that that it "spills" into the following bar, I
don't think that will be fine for my use case because I'm using
polyphony at that point and that would make lilypond think that when I
start writing for the following bar it would start half a beat later
and so I would not be able to write the bass g on the bar before last
(and I'd rather avoid hacking it too hard just to keep it simple...
that's why I try to write bars separately). If a way to write the dot
the way it is written on the original manuscript comes up later on,
I'll be happy to modify the file and push it to the repo so that it
matches the manuscript more closely.

Thank you very much for your feedback.

PS Change is already on the repo, just in case

https://github.com/eantoranz/bwv/blob/master/BWV%201004%20Violin%20Partita%20II%20D%20minor/5-ciaccona.ly

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Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Simon Albrecht]

On 08.03.2018 02:17, Edmundo Carmona Antoranz wrote:

it's written in a way that would break the "normal" rules about
how to use it (it wouldn't fit on the previous bar so a tie to a 8th
note starting the bar is what I would have written)


Rules that have evolved in the course of the 19th and 20th century and 
are certainly alien to the 18th.


If you’re trying to turn this into an ‘authoritative’ representation as 
LilyPond code, fortunately there’s the option of coding it as a dotted 
note and if necessary displaying it with ties using the 
Completion_heads_engraver – a great tool for ancient music.
And once there is a LilyPond engraver that can produce the original way 
of writing it, there will be no need of adjusting the content.


Best, Simon

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Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Guy Stalnaker]

Edmundo,

You've encountered an earlier engraving convention for how to show pitches
that continue from a previous measure. If you look at more autograph and
earlier published scores from the 17th and 18th centuries you'll find this.
It is, essentially, what we today call a "tied" note. I'm sure you know how
that looks. While you can attempt to discover a way to typeset this in
Lilypond, perhaps the better course is to use modern convention unless you
actually intend to use older conventions. But then, you'll likely need to
include an Explanations page for people to explain this unfamiliar
notation. I did a quick review of imslp.org and sure enough the first score
listed for BWV1004 shows this dot-as-tie (the Bach-Gesellschaft Ausgabe,
Band 27 Breitkoph and Haertel from 1879) while the Neue Bach-Ausbgabe from
1958 shows the tied note.

Guy Stalnaker
jimmyg...@gmail.com

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 6:39 PM, Edmundo Carmona Antoranz <
eantor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> You know the chaconne from BWV 1004, right? On the bar before last,
> there's an apparent dot written at the position of the f at the
> opening of the bar. I didn't know if it was a staccato mark or other
> kind of expressive mark for the violin or a mistake but I also found
> it on Anna Magdalena' Bach's manuscrit, not just Bach's. So I asked
> around[1] and apparently it's a "harmonic delay" or a prolongation...
> it's the first time ever I see something like that written on a part
> (though I know the concept of the harmonic delay from the few classes
> of harmony I did "back in the day"). So I looked around how to
> write it on lilypond but i found nothing. What do you think is the
> best way to achieve it?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> [1] https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/67493/bwv-1004-
> is-there-a-pause-by-the-end-of-ciaccona-or-is-it-staccato
>
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Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Edmundo Carmona Antoranz]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> There is no reason whatsoever for any fancy words. It’s just a dotted note
> with the dot written at the rhythmic position where it actually happens.
> I’ve never seen any realisation of this in LilyPond – would be good to have
> an LSR snippet.
> Semantically it would call for an override on the dot.
>

Thanks for your reply, Simon. Oh! So, it's just a simple dot only
that it's written in a way that would break the "normal" rules about
how to use it (it wouldn't fit on the previous bar so a tie to a 8th
note starting the bar is what I would have written) and that's why I
didn't think of it as a dot on the previous f.

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Re: How to write this note from chaconne?

[Simon Albrecht]

On 08.03.2018 01:39, Edmundo Carmona Antoranz wrote:

So I asked
around[1] and apparently it's a "harmonic delay" or a prolongation...


There is no reason whatsoever for any fancy words. It’s just a dotted 
note with the dot written at the rhythmic position where it actually 
happens.
I’ve never seen any realisation of this in LilyPond – would be good to 
have an LSR snippet.

Semantically it would call for an override on the dot.

Best, Simon

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How to write this note from chaconne?

[Edmundo Carmona Antoranz]

Hi!

You know the chaconne from BWV 1004, right? On the bar before last,
there's an apparent dot written at the position of the f at the
opening of the bar. I didn't know if it was a staccato mark or other
kind of expressive mark for the violin or a mistake but I also found
it on Anna Magdalena' Bach's manuscrit, not just Bach's. So I asked
around[1] and apparently it's a "harmonic delay" or a prolongation...
it's the first time ever I see something like that written on a part
(though I know the concept of the harmonic delay from the few classes
of harmony I did "back in the day"). So I looked around how to
write it on lilypond but i found nothing. What do you think is the
best way to achieve it?

Thanks in advance.

[1] 
https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/67493/bwv-1004-is-there-a-pause-by-the-end-of-ciaccona-or-is-it-staccato

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