On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Li Zefan wrote:
> Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>> With 3.2-rc4 (probably earlier), Ext4 seems to remember what areas it
>> trimmed:
>> But BTRFS does not:
> There's no such plan, but it's do-able, and I can take care of it.
> There's an issue though.
> For btrfs
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Tobias wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> My BTRFS-FS ist getting really slow. Reading is ok, writing is slow and
> deleting is horrible slow.
>
> There are many files and many links on the FS.
>
> # btrfs filesystem df /srv/storage
> Data: total=3.09TB, used=3.07TB
this is ...
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:42 AM, Wilfred van Velzen wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Gareth Pye wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:51 AM, Wilfred van Velzen
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (I'm not interested in what early adopter users do when they are using
>>> rc kernels...)
>>
>> Yet your going
On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 5:15 AM, 810d4rk <810d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I plugged it directly by sata and this is what I get from the 3.1 kernel:
> [ 581.921417] sdb: sdb1
> [ 581.921642] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdb] Attached SCSI disk
> [ 660.040263] EXT4-fs (dm-4): VFS: Can't find ext4 filesystem
... and
2011/12/9 Ricardo Bánffy :
> Dec 9 01:06:21 adams kernel: [ 207.912535] usb 1-2.1: reset high
> speed USB device number 7 using ehci_hcd
That's usually a REALLY bad sign.
If you can remove the drive from the USB enclosure, I suggest you plug
it to onboard SATA port. That way at least you won't
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Mike Thomas wrote:
> Hi, I've been using btrfs for a while now, I've been utilizing snapshotting
> nightly/weekly/monthly. During the weekly I also do a backup of the
> filesystem to an ext4 filesystem. My storage is a linux md raid 5 volume.
> I've recently notic
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 09:33:37AM +0700, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Phillip Susi wrote:
>> > On 11/28/2011 12:53 PM, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote:
>> >> Seems I've picked up
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Phillip Susi wrote:
> On 11/28/2011 12:53 PM, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote:
>> Seems I've picked up a wireless regression, and randomly drop my WiFi
>> connection with more recent kernels. While I'd love to try to track down the
>> issue, the sporadic nature makes it diff
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 8:00 AM, Chris Samuel wrote:
> Another possibility I *think* is that you could try 3.1 with
> Chris Mason's for-linus git branch pulled into it. Hopefully
> someone who knows the procedure better than I can correct me
> on this! :-)
My method is:
- use 3.1.1 (latest stabl
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Blair Zajac wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm trying btrfs in a VirtualBox VM running Ubuntu 11.10 with kernel 3.0.0.
> Running fsck I get a message with "err is 1".
> Does this mean there's an error? Is err either always 0 or 1, or does err
> increment beyond 1?
I ca
On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Lubos Kolouch wrote:
> Sorry for possibly OT question - when I have historical btrfs system
> mounted with zlib compression,
>
> can I remount it with lzo ?
yes
> What will happen? Will the COW be broken
> and the files taking duplicate space? Or will the Universe
On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Eric Griffith wrote:
> Edit your
> fstab, remove the compress flag, reboot. Tell btrfs to rebalance the system,
> reboot again. And I -THINK- that'll decompress all the files
I think the original question was how to force uncompressed mode,
whether specific to a fi
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 7:32 AM, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote:
>> some of us make use of snapshot/clone, whether it's using btrfs or zfs :)
>
> No, this is just flat my fault: it doesn't matter what backup method you use
> if
> you do it wrong. (I actually have three snapshots of each of my two
> partit
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote:
> So, I was trying to downgrade my Ubuntu last night, and, before doing anything
> risky like that, I backed up my disk via dd to an image on an external disk.
some of us make use of snapshot/clone, whether it's using btrfs or zfs :)
> So,
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:54 PM, dima wrote:
>>> Hi Fajar,
>>> I think I am doing just this, but my subvolumes are not visible under
>>> /boot. I
>>> have all my subvolumes set up like this:
>>> /path/to/subvolid_0/boot< a simple directory bind-mounted to /
>>> /path/to/subvolid_0/__active< my /
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:00 AM, dima wrote:
> Fajar A. Nugraha fajar.net> writes:
>
>> AFAIK you have three possible ways to use /boot on btrfs:
>>
>> (1) put /boot on subvolid=0, don't change the default subvolume. That
>> works, but all your snapshot/sub
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:24 PM, dima wrote:
> Fajar A. Nugraha fajar.net> writes:
>
>> A problem with that, though, if you decide to put /boot on btrfs as
>> well. Grub uses the default subvolume to determine paths (for kernel,
>> initrd, etc). A workaround is to manu
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:45 PM, dima wrote:
> Phillip Susi cfl.rr.com> writes:
>
>> I created a snapshot of my root subvol, then used btrfs-subvolume
>> set-default to make the snapshot the default subvol and rebooted. This
>> seems to have correctly gotten the system to boot from the snapshot
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:51 PM, bbsposters wrote:
> Hi list,
> I want to create volumes (not subvolumes) on one device.
> Could it work?
> If it works, how can I do by btrfs tools ?
> If it can't, is there any way to create subvolumes which have their
> independent space?
> For example, I want
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Mitch Harder
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> I noticed that "btrfs subvolume snapshot" is now broken. It keeps on
>> saying "Invalid arguments for subvolume snapshot".
>>
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Hugo Mills wrote:
> Fixes or updated patches for any problems you may find are
> welcomed, of course.
I noticed that "btrfs subvolume snapshot" is now broken. It keeps on
saying "Invalid arguments for subvolume snapshot".
Further checking shows it's caused by
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Hugo Mills wrote:
> All -
>
> After a long wait (sorry about that, things have been busy for me
> lately), I've managed to pull together a new integration branch for
> btrfs-progs. This can be pulled from:
>
> http://git.darksatanic.net/repo/btrfs-progs-unstabl
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:20 PM, David Sterba wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 02:30:30PM +0700, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>>> This happens both with natty's 2.6.38-11-generic and kernel 3.0.4
>>> (backp
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:20 PM, David Sterba wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 02:30:30PM +0700, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> This happens both with natty's 2.6.38-11-generic and kernel 3.0.4
>> (backported from oneiric). Does anyone know if this is a know problem,
>
Hi
I have a system with Ubuntu natty i386 which uses btrfs root. It has
worked mostly well, but I have a problem when I want to create new
snapshot.
Current layout looks something like this
$ mount | grep btrfs
/dev/sda6 on / type btrfs (rw,noatime,subvolid=258,compress-force=lzo)
/dev/sda6 on /h
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 4:13 AM, Asdo wrote:
> On 10/07/11 22:19, Diego Calleja wrote:
>>
>> On Viernes, 7 de Octubre de 2011 21:10:33 Asdo escribió:
>>>
>>> failures, but you can always mount by rolling back to a previous
>>> uberblock, showing an earlier view of the filesystem, which would be
>>>
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Maciej Marcin Piechotka
wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 05:16 +0700, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:37 AM, Felix Blanke wrote:
>> > I'm using btrfs since one year now and it's quite fast. I don't feel any
>
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:37 AM, Felix Blanke wrote:
> I'm using btrfs since one year now and it's quite fast. I don't feel any
> differences to other filesystems. Never tried a benchmark but for my daily
> work it's nice.
Your workload must be light :)
> I also never had any issues with the mem
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Swâmi Petaramesh wrote:
> On Monday 5 September 2011 22:25:23 Sergei Trofimovich wrote:
>> I've seen similar problem on Ubuntu-11 + Aspire One (8GB of slow "SSD").
>> More specifically half of ubuntu install went very fast and when
>> disk was ~50% free things sudd
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 4:13 AM, Yalonda Gishtaka
wrote:
> Halp! I was recently forced to power cycle my desktop PC, and upon
> restart, the btrfs /home volume would no longer mount, citing the
> error "BUG: scheduling while atomic: mount /5584/0x2". I
> retrieved the latest btrfs-progs
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 6:38 AM, wrote:
>
> On my system btrfsck runs periodically at boot. When it is run I get the
> error message "unresolved ref root" in reference to a snapshot I
> created. Consequently the fsck gets re-run during the following boot
> repeating a time consuming process. I can
On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 4:12 AM, wrote:
> On Saturday 30 July, 2011 13:46:21 Hugo Mills wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:51:51PM -0700, . wrote:
>> > I just did my monthly dist-upgrade and rebooted, only to have it stall
>> > at Control D. It tried to automatically run fsck.btrfs and of cour
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Mck wrote:
> Knowing very little about zero-log and select-super should i continue
> using my laptop like normal now?
> Or is this filesystem still considered corrupt and i should backup and
> format it all from scratch?
This is my guess:
- since you clear the log
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 3:51 AM, mck wrote:
> My laptop btrfs partition has become corrupt after a power+battery
> outage.
>
> # btrfs-show
> Label: none uuid: e7b37e5d-c704-4ca8-ae7e-f22dd063e165
> Total devices 1 FS bytes used 116.33GB
> devid 1 size 226.66GB used 226.66GB path
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Leonidas Spyropoulos
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:34 AM, Leonidas Spyropoulos
>> wrote:
>>> So any clues for the intel 320 series? I think it doesn't use compression.
--
Fajar
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:58 AM, Leonidas Spyropoulos
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Chris Samuel wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 05:45:17 AM Calvin Walton wrote:
>
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 3:58 AM, Leonidas Spyropoulos
wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Chris Samuel wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 05:45:17 AM Calvin Walton wrote:
>> This LWN article from 2009 explains why it can be problematic
>> (especially on SATA drives where TRIM is a non-queued comm
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Werner Fischer wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> are there any plans that future versions of mkfs.btrfs will do an
> initial pre-discard for SSDs? (AFAIK mkfs.btrfs does not do this
> currently)
It should already have it. That is, if you look in the right place
commit e6bd18d8
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Michael Stephenson
wrote:
> Hello,
> I formatted my home partition with btrfs, not realising that the fsck
> tool can't actually fix errors, as I have just discovered on your
> wiki.
> Had I knew this I would have not used it so early, this detail you
> would think
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Thierry Noret wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Since my computer has switch off with hard reset, I can't mount my home
> directory.
> / is btrfs too and there is no problem
> Kernel-2.6.38-R6
> I've try with 2.6.39 and same problem
>
> Thanks
>
> T.Noret
>
> [ cut he
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Hugo Mills wrote:
> Over the last few weeks, I've been playing with a foolish idea,
> mostly triggered by a cluster of people being confused by btrfs's free
> space reporting (df vs btrfs fi df vs btrfs fi show). I also wanted an
> excuse, and some code, to mess a
nted
# umount /dev/loop0
# btrfs fi la /dev/loop0
new
#===
Not sure if you need if you need a signoff for something as trivial as
this, but here it is just in case.
Signed-off-by: Fajar A. Nugraha
---
btrfs.c |6 ++
1 files changed, 6 ins
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
> Excerpts from Fajar A. Nugraha's message of 2011-06-01 08:22:40 -0400:
>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> > While using btrfs as root on kernel 3.0-rc1, there was some errors (I
>> >
When building from tmp branch I got this error:
mkfs.c: In function ‘main’:
mkfs.c:730:6: error: ‘ret’ may be used uninitialized in this function
mkfs.c:841:43: error: ‘parent_dir_entry’ may be used uninitialized in
this function
make: *** [mkfs.o] Error 1
"git blame" shows the last commit for b
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 6:06 AM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
> While using btrfs as root on kernel 3.0-rc1, there was some errors (I
> wasn't able to capture the error) that forced me to do hard reset.
>
> Now during startup system drops to busybox shell because it's unable
>
While using btrfs as root on kernel 3.0-rc1, there was some errors (I
wasn't able to capture the error) that forced me to do hard reset.
Now during startup system drops to busybox shell because it's unable
to mount root partition.
Is there a way to recover the data, as at least grub2 was still hap
On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Sander wrote:
> Li Zefan wrote (ao):
>> As the lzo compression feature has been established for quite
>> a while, we are now ready to replace zlib with lzo as the default
>> compression scheme.
>
> Please be aware that grub2 currently can't load files from a btrfs
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Swâmi Petaramesh wrote:
> # uname -a
> Linux tethys 2.6.38-8-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Mon Apr 11 03:31:50 UTC
> 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
>
> # mount | grep btrfs
> /dev/mapper/VG1-TETHYS on / type btrfs
> (rw,relatime,subvol=UBUNTU,compress=zlib)
> /dev/mapper/V
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Swâmi Petaramesh wrote:
> Adding to the fact that it comes included with the stock and distro
> kernels... That gives a bit contradictory signals... "Should I stay or
> should I go ?"
>
> Looks a bit like legal babble boiling down to « Yes, it is supposed to
> work
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 4:36 AM, Swâmi Petaramesh wrote:
> However shifting from ext3 to BTRFS has been enough to turn my perfectly
> stable system into a perfectly unstable and crash-prone system :-/
Well, first of all, btrfs is still under heavy development. Add to
that the fact that you use Ub
red
to zlib, so right now I just use separate /boot/grub in ext4 to make
it work correctly.
--
Fajar
>
> On May 8, 2011 7:35 AM, "Fajar A. Nugraha" wrote:
>> Currently using Ubuntu Natty, kernel 2.6.38-9-generic, I have these
>> mount points using btrs subvolumes
>&g
Currently using Ubuntu Natty, kernel 2.6.38-9-generic, I have these
mount points using btrs subvolumes
$ mount -t btrfs
/dev/sda2 on / type btrfs (rw,noatime,subvolid=256,compress-force=zlib)
/dev/sda2 on /home type btrfs (rw,noatime,subvolid=258,compress=lzo)
Yet dmesg seems to show only zlib co
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:20 AM, wrote:
> On Tuesday 3 May, 2011 14:26:52 Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
>> Does Debian (or whatever distro you use) support BTRFS "/"?
>> If yes, you should ask them.
>
> What do you mean 'does Debian support BTRFS'? The kern
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Martin Schitter wrote:
> Am 2011-05-04 02:28, schrieb Josef Bacik:
>>
>> Wait why are you running with btrfs in production?
>
> do you know a better alternative for continuous snapshots? :)
zfs :D
>
> it works surprisingly well since more than a year.
> well the p
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:27 AM, wrote:
>
> Having a failure that may be because grub2 doesn't BTRFS. /boot is ext3 and
> / is BTRFS.
Does Debian (or whatever distro you use) support BTRFS "/"?
If yes, you should ask them.
If no, then you should've already known that there's a risk when using
u
On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Evert Vorster wrote:
> Hi there.
>
> Just a quick question: How do I rename an existing btrfs filesystem
> without destroying all the subvolumes on it?
>
> From mkfs.btrfs it says -L sets the initial filesystem label.
>
> With ext2, 3 and 4 the filesystem label can
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 10:03 PM, wrote:
> Would it be good practice to say, once a year, do a completely new fresh
> snapshot?
There's no such thing as "new fresh snapshot".
You can create a new, empty subvolume.
Or you can create snapshot of existing root/subvolume, which once
created, behav
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
> Excerpts from Christoph Hellwig's message of 2011-04-01 09:34:05 -0400:
>> I don't think it's a good idea to introduce any user visible operations
>> over subvolume boundaries. Currently we don't have any operations over
>> mount boundaries, wh
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Andreas Philipp
wrote:
> I think it is since I upgraded to kernel version 2.6.38 (I
> do not create subvolumes on a regular basis.).
> thor btrfs # btrfs subvolume create 123456789
> Create subvolume './123456789'
> thor btrfs # touch 123456789/lsdkfj
> touch: can
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Stephane Chazelas
wrote:
> AFAICT, compression is enabled at mount time and would
> only apply to newly created files. Is there a way to compress
> files already in a btrfs filesystem?
You need to select the files manually (not possible to select a
directory), bu
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Jérôme Poulin wrote:
> As a sidenote USB converters don't have low level access to the disk
> so it also makes smartctl and stuff not working at all.
That depends on the disk and controller.
I had an old USB controller with PATA disk, smartctl was unusable on it.
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Brian J. Murrell wrote:
> # cp -al /backup/previous-backup/ /backup/current-backup
> # rsync -aAHX ... --exclude /backup / /backup/current-backup
>
> The shortcoming of this of course is that it just takes 1 byte in a
> (possibly huge) file to require that the whol
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, wrote:
>
> On /dev/sda I have sda1 which is my / bootable filesystem for Debian
> formatted ext4. This is 256MB on a 2TB drive.
Really? How do you know it's 256 MB?
> # fdisk /dev/sda
> WARNING: GPT (GUID Partition Table) detected on '/dev/sda'! The util fdisk
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Goffredo Baroncelli wrote:
> And more, it is possible to add a "-R" flag to snapshot recursively a
> subvolume...
Are you saying recursive snapshot creation is aready supportted in
btrfs? Which version?
--
Fajar
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Felix Blanke wrote:
> I tried the newest version 2.19-rc1. There seems to be some kind of "fix":
>
> scooter ~ # /home/fame/tmp/util-linux-2.19-rc1/mount/losetup -a
> /dev/loop0: [0010]:3154
> (/dev/disk/by-id/ata-INTEL_SSDSA2M160G2GC_CVPO939201JX160AGN-pa*), encry
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Helmut Hullen wrote:
>
> Hallo, Carl,
>
> Du meintest am 20.01.11:
>
> >> If you shutdown the system, at the reboot you should "scan" all the
> >> device in order to find the btrfs ones
> >>
> >> # find the btrfs device
> >> btrfs device scan
>
> > This must be don
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 5:01 AM, Hugo Mills wrote:
> There is a root subvolume namespace (subvolid=0), which may contain
> files, directories, and other subvolumes. This root subvolume is what
> you see when you mount a newly-created btrfs filesystem.
Is there a detailed explanation in the wiki
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Alan Chandler
wrote:
>> then create snapshots of these directories:
>>
>> /mnt/btrfs/
>> |- server-a
>> |- server-b
>> |- server-c
>> |- snapshots-server-a
>> |- @GMT-2010.12.21-16.48.09
>> \- @GMT-
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 8:16 PM, Carl Cook wrote:
>
> I'd rather not do the copy again unless necessary, as it took a day.
>
> Directories look identical, but who knows? I'm going to try and figure out
> how to do a file-by-file crc check, for peace of mind.
try "du --apparent-size -slh"
It shou
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 5:29 AM, cwillu wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Andrew Schretter
> wrote:
>> I have a 10TB btrfs filesystem over iSCSI that is currently unmountable. I'm
>> currently running Fedora 13 with a recent Fedora 14 kernel
>> (2.6.35.9-64.fc14.i686.PAE)
>> and the syst
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:26 AM, Carl Cook wrote:
> On Thu 06 January 2011 13:58:41 Freddie Cash wrote:
>> Simplest solution is to write a script to create a mysqldump of all
>> databases into a directory, add that to cron so that it runs at the
>> same time everyday, 10-15 minutes before the rsync
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:35 AM, Carl Cook wrote:
> I want to keep a duplicate copy of the HTPC data, on the backup server
> Is there a BTRFS tool that would do this?
AFAIK zfs is the only opensource filesystem today that can transfer
block-level delta between two snapshots, making it ideal for
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Fajar A. Nugraha wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:51 AM, C Anthony Risinger wrote:
>> i'm on 2.6.36.2
>
> Try 2.6.35 or later. I tested something similar under ubuntu maverick
> (2.6.35-24-generic) and it works just fine.
Sorry, hit &
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:51 AM, C Anthony Risinger wrote:
> in short, everything works fine until you --bind across a subvol via
> the "special" folders created when one takes a snapshot,
> # mount --bind root//home/anthony bind
> # touch bind/TEST
>
>
bind/ is a mounted snapshot, right? if y
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