Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Article about the phone (in hebrew): http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3770875,00.html -- Arie ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: ... Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. Microsoft, but OTOH writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. ... By the way, don't forget that: 1. Android is Linux. 2. WebOS is Linux (Palm left their proprietary OS). 3. iPhone is BSD. 4. ...and not only Nokia's Maemo is Linux/UNIX based (iPhone is half closed, thanks for the liberal license of BSD, but even iPhone is much more UNIXish than the old proprietary OSes - PalmOS, Windows Mobile, etc.). With Microsoft giving up their Mobile (they gave their OFFICE sources to Nokia to help the Maemo to win against Apple/Google), UNIX/Linux is gaining a world domination in a yet another field, with all of the four favorite OSes based on UNIX/Linux (I assume that it's only a matter of time till Symbian is replaced officially by Maemo. Maybe years, but we are not in rush, and can't wait even 2-3 years for the world domination). -- Eli Marmor mar...@netmask.it CEO, Netmask (El-Mar) Internet Technologies Ltd. __ Tel.: +972-9-766-1020 8 Yad-Harutzim St. Fax.: +972-9-766-1314 P.O.B. 7004 Mobile: +972-50-5237338 Kfar-Saba 44641, Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo het...@gmail.com wrote: Umm, actually, pretty open.. Read this: http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/ Also, within the last few days, they signed and sumbitted new drivers to be included in the standard kernel. The technology that they use is open and it's right there on your linux desktop: Xorg, gstreamer, pulse audio, bluez, telepathy, they use upstart instead of sysinit, matchbox window manager, X terminal, busybox, GLX. Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. Microsoft, but OTOH writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. I'm excited about N900 because it's the closest thing in terms of technology to my CentOS and Fedora machines I have here at home. Watch this Flors guy's blog, he'll post some info next week specially for Developers. i quote one of the replys on flor's page: Nokia has an unfortunate track record of marketing Maemo as “open” or “free” and later shipping devices (N770,800,810) with a variety of proprietary (closed source, binary only) drivers (e.g. wifi on the N770) and other components (dsme, bme, etc.) without which the devices won’t even have essential functionality such as basic power management (in the sense of charging the battery). The corresponding bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1584 has been closed as FIXED without an actual resolution. The wiki page http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages indicates that the situation hasn’t changed significantly and won’t change in the foreseeable future for strategic reasons (”differentiation”). when i got my n95, and could download C software development kit from nokia, i was thrilled, until i found there was no ping utility on the phone, or one that i can download from the net (at that time). and nokia blocked me from writing one (privileged packets), so i was left without a basic network debugging tool to check why my wifi didn't work in certain situations ... (and nokia's error messages sucked). also, do you think i will be able to use openvpn on the n900 ? what about iptables ? having a root shell doesn't mean i can use a firewall if i can not build iptables for the kernel. Thanks, Hetz 2009/8/29 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Erez D wrote: nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? In all likelyhood, the system will be more or less open (i.e. - there will be some closed drivers), but the actual phone software will be pretty close. Then again, a port of OpenMoko (or, for that matter, android) to that phone is, likely, not far away. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Eli Marmor wrote: Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: ... Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. Microsoft, but OTOH writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. ... By the way, don't forget that: 1. Android is Linux. 2. WebOS is Linux (Palm left their proprietary OS). 3. iPhone is BSD. 4. ...and not only Nokia's Maemo is Linux/UNIX based While technically true, it is also totally irrelevant. When you write a phone application, you rarely interact with the kernel. Your main interaction is with the GUI. As such, which are the toolkits and what languages can you use: Neo: C/C++/Python/Anything. GUI is ETK, GTK, QT, wxWidgets or whatever. WebOS: I don't know what language (C?). GUI is Palm OS iPhone: I don't know what language (Objective C?). GUI is iPhone Android: Java. GUI is Android Windows Mobile: C, GUI is Win32ish Nokia: C/C++. GUI is QT. Of this list, only the first and the last provide you with a development environment that is the same for the phone and for you (or, at least, my) desktop. In some cases I literally run the same software on my laptop and on the phone. With Windows mobile, the framework is somewhat the same (but it is a horrendous framework to develop desktop applications with, and it's even worse for phones). Then again, after spending the past two months doing Android development, there are also advantages. On the Neo, by far the best environment to actually send and receive phone calls is QTopia, which specifically deviates from the standard your desktop is running. I have two SIMs connected to one number. With most environments, my dumb phone would ring first. The exceptions were QTopia (if the phone was not asleep while the phone call came) and the Android device, both would actually ring before my dumb phone would. In all honesty, I would rather have a phone that works than have a phone that runs my applications. I am much more worried about Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market) than I am about the fact it is running a non-standard environment. I am sad to say that, in that respect, Windows Mobile is better. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
On Aug 30, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: In all honesty, I would rather have a phone that works than have a phone that runs my applications. I am much more worried about Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market) than I am about the fact it is running a non-standard environment. I am sad to say that, in that respect, Windows Mobile is better. The iPhone is similar. While people say that the Mac is UNIX and it is very heavily BSD based, the average user has no contact with it. I have several terminal windows open, run X windows applications (on the Mac and from remote clients), etc. 99% of the users never open a terminal window, never use X windows (except for OpenOffice, which no longer uses it) and their only contact is with the GUI and the closed source (sub)systems it invokes. The iPhone is the same type of thing, with a closed source GUI on top of a BSD kernel. The current iPhone uses an ARM processor, the development environment is X86 based, and while there is a compatability GUI, there is no X86 to ARM emulation. This does two things, one it forces the developer to test on the iPhone itself before release and two it makes a future device with an X86 processor will have a large library of tested applications. Apple also took the path that Nintendo started with the Gameboy and Sony follows with the PSP. You can't sell an application for the iPhone without going to the Apple store. (look up Google voice and the iPhone for the details). According to a friend of mine who is an iPhone user, they can easily be jailbroken to allow you to run non approved applications, but how many people on the street will do it? My point is that while Shachar states that Windows Mobile is a better development enviornment, and I think the iPhone is one too, this is a case where you have to decide if you want to develop a FOSS application or a closed one. 14 years ago when I started using Linux, it was a rare thing, even in free systems BSD was popular, and the GPL was something new and not common or understood. I think that the day after the iPhone is actually released to Israel, there will be 10,000 startups started to make iPhone apps. So if you are looking for fame and fortune, fast return (or fast loss) of your efforts, go with the iPhone. If you are looking to make a contribution to the FOSS family, look for a Linux based phone and stick with it. Geoff. -- geoffrey mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM Jerusalem Israel geoffreymendel...@gmail.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
geoffrey mendelson wrote: My point is that while Shachar states that Windows Mobile is a better development enviornment I said no such thing! I said it was a horrible environment made even more horrid by the move to slim appliance. What I said was that it is a more open one. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Shachar Shemesh wrote: I am much more worried about Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market) than I am about the fact it is running a non-standard environment. What do you mean by Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market)? Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker CTO Codefidence Ltd. Web: http://codefidence.com Cell: +972-52-8260388 Tel: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax: +972-8-9316884 Email: gi...@codefidence.com Check out our Open Source technology and training blog - http://tuxology.net Now the world has gone to bed Darkness won't engulf my head I can see by infra-red How I hate the night. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Hi, You have been severly misinformed. All you need to install using USB is the free as in speech Google SDK and USB cable that comes with the phone. Adb is running on all phones and you don't need to be root to install applications. More important, you can install application by simply downloading an .apk file with the built in browser, assuming you check one checkbox in the GUI settings for security purposes. And last, Google does not validate apps in the market and the developer fee is one time 25$. Not exactly a big barrierr. In other words: what you're talking about, Willis^H^HShahar? Gilad Shachar Shemesh wrote: I am much more worried about Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market) than I am about the fact it is running a non-standard environment. What do you mean by Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market)? I mean that anyone can develop for the android, but if you actually want to install something on the actual phone, you are up to the mercy of whoever sold it to you (unless you root it, of course, in which case even the iPhone is open). I am not sure what is required to be able to do adb install from a PC, but it certainly requires that adb be running, possibly also requires root. Without that, if it's not in the Market (approved by Google, pending a yearly fee), it doesn't exist. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Shachar Shemesh wrote: I am much more worried about Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market) than I am about the fact it is running a non-standard environment. What do you mean by Android's lack of friendliness to third party applications (unless they come through the Market)? I mean that anyone can develop for the android, but if you actually want to install something on the actual phone, you are up to the mercy of whoever sold it to you (unless you root it, of course, in which case even the iPhone is open). I am not sure what is required to be able to do adb install from a PC, but it certainly requires that adb be running, possibly also requires root. Without that, if it's not in the Market (approved by Google, pending a yearly fee), it doesn't exist. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Adb is running on all phones and you don't need to be root to install applications. The Samsung Galaxy, at least as sold by Cellcom, does not run ADB by default. Even when I set USB debugging, I cannot see the phone when I do adb devices, and cannot connect to it (let alone install anything on it). More important, you can install application by simply downloading an .apk file with the built in browser, assuming you check one checkbox in the GUI settings for security purposes. I have to admit I was not aware of that option. After checking, I stand corrected. It is, indeed, possible to install 3rd party applications, fairly freely. Why Samsung (or Cellcom) decided to cripple the installation from PC is beyond me, then. Maybe they thought this will prevent people from rooting the machine (which is strange, because the rooting instructions for the device do not require adb). And last, Google does not validate apps in the market and the developer fee is one time 25$. Not exactly a big barrierr. Enough of a barrier that most of the free (of charge) applications you actually see there are various variations on the crippleware/adware models, and not so many free (speech). In other words: what you're talking about, Willis^H^HShahar? Who is this WillShahar, then? Allow me to sell you a couple of tips: * Ctrl-W erases a whole word. * My name is spelled with a c Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Shachar Shemesh wrote: Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Adb is running on all phones and you don't need to be root to install applications. The Samsung Galaxy, at least as sold by Cellcom, does not run ADB by default. Even when I set USB debugging, I cannot see the phone when I do adb devices, and cannot connect to it (let alone install anything on it). Not sure, but I'm guessing it might be a problem with your setup, rather then a Smasung imposed limit. Are you sure you have set up the ADB udev rules correctly? Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker CTO Codefidence Ltd. Web: http://codefidence.com Cell: +972-52-8260388 Tel: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax: +972-8-9316884 Email: gi...@codefidence.com Check out our Open Source technology and training blog - http://tuxology.net Now the world has gone to bed Darkness won't engulf my head I can see by infra-red How I hate the night. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Shachar Shemesh wrote: Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Adb is running on all phones and you don't need to be root to install applications. The Samsung Galaxy, at least as sold by Cellcom, does not run ADB by default. Even when I set USB debugging, I cannot see the phone when I do adb devices, and cannot connect to it (let alone install anything on it). Not sure, but I'm guessing it might be a problem with your setup, rather then a Smasung imposed limit. Are you sure you have set up the ADB udev rules correctly? I'm connecting to other Android devices without a problem. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Shachar Shemesh wrote: The Samsung Galaxy, at least as sold by Cellcom, does not run ADB by default. Even when I set USB debugging, I cannot see the phone when I do adb devices, and cannot connect to it (let alone install anything on it). Not sure, but I'm guessing it might be a problem with your setup, rather then a Smasung imposed limit. Are you sure you have set up the ADB udev rules correctly? I'm connecting to other Android devices without a problem. That's because the USB vendor/product properties for the Samsung are different then your HTC made ones (different vendor), which means the udev rule needs to be different. You also need to patch the adb client soruces with the different vendor ID. RTFG, for example: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/msg/ae589dcd4ce8810d?pli=1 Gilad :-) -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker CTO Codefidence Ltd. Web: http://codefidence.com Cell: +972-52-8260388 Tel: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax: +972-8-9316884 Email: gi...@codefidence.com Check out our Open Source technology and training blog - http://tuxology.net Now the world has gone to bed Darkness won't engulf my head I can see by infra-red How I hate the night. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Shachar Shemesh wrote: The Samsung Galaxy, at least as sold by Cellcom, does not run ADB by default. Even when I set USB debugging, I cannot see the phone when I do adb devices, and cannot connect to it (let alone install anything on it). Not sure, but I'm guessing it might be a problem with your setup, rather then a Smasung imposed limit. Are you sure you have set up the ADB udev rules correctly? I'm connecting to other Android devices without a problem. That's because the USB vendor/product properties for the Samsung are different then your HTC made ones (different vendor), which means the udev rule needs to be different. That would be true had I needed to do anything to get udev to support the HTC. As things stand, I am mounting the relevant usbfs file system with write permissions for my user, so I can mount USB devices inside my VirtualBox machines. You also need to patch the adb client soruces with the different vendor ID. My adb sources already had the Samsung Vendor ID. RTFG, for example: http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/msg/ae589dcd4ce8810d?pli=1 Just to be sure, I made the udev change and used their binary of adb, and deviec still wouldn't show up. It shows up in lsusb: Bus 004 Device 008: ID 04e8:6640 Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd Usb Modem Enumerator but not in adb: /tmp$ ./adb devices List of devices attached Either I am missing something else (which is possible), or Cellcom did remove adb from the device. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Not sure, but I'm guessing it might be a problem with your setup, rather then a Smasung imposed limit. Are you sure you have set up the ADB udev rules correctly? Of course not :-) All I know is that, on my setup, the HTC worked with me having to actually set up anything (and I explained before why that makes sense, based on my system), and that adb seems to be one that should work. Just to be sure this is not the udev permissions problem, I just tried running adb as root. The phone is still not visible. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
On 08/30/2009 11:52 AM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Eli Marmor wrote: Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: ... Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. Microsoft, but OTOH writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. ... By the way, don't forget that: 1. Android is Linux. 2. WebOS is Linux (Palm left their proprietary OS). 3. iPhone is BSD. 4. ...and not only Nokia's Maemo is Linux/UNIX based While technically true, it is also totally irrelevant. When you write a phone application, you rarely interact with the kernel. Your main interaction is with the GUI. As such, which are the toolkits and what languages can you use: Neo: C/C++/Python/Anything. GUI is ETK, GTK, QT, wxWidgets or whatever. WebOS: I don't know what language (C?). GUI is Palm OS iPhone: I don't know what language (Objective C?). GUI is iPhone Android: Java. GUI is Android Windows Mobile: C, GUI is Win32ish Nokia: C/C++. GUI is QT. Of this list, only the first and the last provide you with a development environment that is the same for the phone and for you (or, at least, my) desktop. In some cases I literally run the same software on my laptop and on the phone. snipped AFAIK, Nokia's (actually Maemo) running Hildon [1] - a gnome/gtk based env for handhelds. One can install Qt and apps from the repos. Next version of maemo will be Qt based (while gtk+ apps still working, but relagated to community). Other languages [2] (e.g: Python) can be used as well. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildon [2] http://maemo.org/development/documentation/programming_languages/ Cheers -- Meir Kriheli ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
an open phone from nokia ?
nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? erez. http://benhamo.org/wp/?p=1628 http://www.h-online.com/open/Nokia-announces-N900-mobile-computer--/news/114106 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Erez D wrote: nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? In all likelyhood, the system will be more or less open (i.e. - there will be some closed drivers), but the actual phone software will be pretty close. Then again, a port of OpenMoko (or, for that matter, android) to that phone is, likely, not far away. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Umm, actually, pretty open.. Read this: http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/ Also, within the last few days, they signed and sumbitted new drivers to be included in the standard kernel. The technology that they use is open and it's right there on your linux desktop: Xorg, gstreamer, pulse audio, bluez, telepathy, they use upstart instead of sysinit, matchbox window manager, X terminal, busybox, GLX. Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. Microsoft, but OTOH writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. I'm excited about N900 because it's the closest thing in terms of technology to my CentOS and Fedora machines I have here at home. Watch this Flors guy's blog, he'll post some info next week specially for Developers. Thanks, Hetz 2009/8/29 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: Erez D wrote: nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? In all likelyhood, the system will be more or less open (i.e. - there will be some closed drivers), but the actual phone software will be pretty close. Then again, a port of OpenMoko (or, for that matter, android) to that phone is, likely, not far away. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
I should make it clear that my previous email was a guess based on my experience with mobile platforms. I may well be surprised yet. Having said that: Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Also, within the last few days, they signed and sumbitted new drivers to be included in the standard kernel. The question is whether all drivers running on the machine will be open? Will I be able to compile, from scratch, my own kernel and have all hardware working? I somehow doubt it, though I would love to be proven wrong. The technology that they use is open and it's right there on your linux desktop: Xorg, gstreamer, pulse audio, bluez, telepathy, they use upstart instead of sysinit, matchbox window manager, X terminal, busybox, GLX. Yes, that is definitely the case, but how about the core services of the phone? Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. I'm a bit confused about that. The guy on his blog says you get simple and easy root. If I have root, what good is a DRM software, closed source or otherwise? I can always just grab the data as it makes its way to the audio driver (or connect as a debugger and grab the raw data from the program's memory, or any number of other techniques). writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. I'm not sure about easier, but it is definitely running a bunch of already existing applications, and has a huge selection of Linux/Unix applications that have an easier port (assuming you don't consider the adaptation of an application to the limitations of a phone the hardest part, which I do happen to). From my limited experience with the Neo, that is a major advantage (not to mention it will natively run all applications written for the Neo, as they share 90% of the technology). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
2009/8/29 Erez D erez0...@gmail.com: nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? The GSM part can't be open as that's an FCC requirements. Open Moko has the same issue. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Lior Kaplan wrote: 2009/8/29 Erez D erez0...@gmail.com: nokia is realeasing the N900 smartphone. which is using maemo (linux) as it's os. will this be a de-facto open phone, or could nokia keep it closed ? The GSM part can't be open as that's an FCC requirements. Open Moko has the same issue. The question remains, will it prevent me from compiling my own kernel? In the Neo, the GSM is a completely different unit, and therefor does not require proprietary drivers in the kernel. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: an open phone from nokia ?
Hi Shachar, 2009/8/29 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz: I should make it clear that my previous email was a guess based on my experience with mobile platforms. I may well be surprised yet. Having said that: Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: Also, within the last few days, they signed and sumbitted new drivers to be included in the standard kernel. The question is whether all drivers running on the machine will be open? Will I be able to compile, from scratch, my own kernel and have all hardware working? I somehow doubt it, though I would love to be proven wrong. The technology that they use is open and it's right there on your linux desktop: Xorg, gstreamer, pulse audio, bluez, telepathy, they use upstart instead of sysinit, matchbox window manager, X terminal, busybox, GLX. Yes, that is definitely the case, but how about the core services of the phone? Will it be totally open? I don't think so because they have to support their DRM'd music/video which you buy, and their DRM is from .. I'm a bit confused about that. The guy on his blog says you get simple and easy root. If I have root, what good is a DRM software, closed source or otherwise? I can always just grab the data as it makes its way to the audio driver (or connect as a debugger and grab the raw data from the program's memory, or any number of other techniques). This is always the case, even on Windows with the DRM. And even if the OS doesn't allow it, simple hardware can be used, for example an Audio sound card with an optical output (quite common on high end systems) being routed into the optical input of an another Audio sound card will circumvent the DRM. The case with DRM, is not whether it can be broken, rather how difficult it would be for the average guy to do. I believe the same is here, Nokia is willing to take a chance with this phone, as they know the average guy, techi or not will be willing to work with something that is more open than others... Of course my feel is that simplicity is the best option, and this phone doesn't look like a simple to use phone :) writing/porting an app to N900, is IMHO way easier then to Android/WebOS/iPhone. I'm not sure about easier, but it is definitely running a bunch of already existing applications, and has a huge selection of Linux/Unix applications that have an easier port (assuming you don't consider the adaptation of an application to the limitations of a phone the hardest part, which I do happen to). From my limited experience with the Neo, that is a major advantage (not to mention it will natively run all applications written for the Neo, as they share 90% of the technology). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
