date:20060614

[WSG]

2006-06-14 Thread sharron




The thread concerning triangles and the link to 
Eric Meyers slant page has reminded me of a test I tried myself about a year 
ago. Eric Meyers curves and such inspired my test back then. However I still 
have not managed to make it work in any browser except IE. Anyone want to hazard 
peek here is the link: http://www.designbyatfb.com/frost/bubbles.html, 
there is also a alternate view and a screenshot of what I want it to do. Circles 
or bubbles as I call them. 
The html and css are also presented. Have fun. I 
hope if anyone figures it out, they let me know :)
 

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Lachlan Hunt


Germ wrote:

png8


It means 8 bit PNG.  Like GIF, it uses a palette to store the colours. 
Whereas PNG24 (24 bit PNG) uses 8 bits per colour (RGB).  PNG32 (an 
alias, used by Fireworks, for PNG-24 + transparency.) uses an extra 8 
bits for alpha transparency.


PNG8 supports index transparency (just like GIF) and is supported by IE. 
 Alpha transparency is not supported by IE 6 or earlier (IE7 supports it).


When exporting the image, in the "Save for web", "Optimize..." (or 
whatever your graphics program calls it) window, they should be listed 
in the format list, along with GIF, JPG and others.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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[WSG] Web Developer Extension for Netscape

2006-06-14 Thread Bojana Lalic









Hi all

 

Is there a web developer extension for Netscape? I am after
the edit CSS option J

 

Thanks

 

Bojana




	
	
		
			

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread David Laakso


Germ wrote:



Im starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given 
me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this 
triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a 
graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to 
upload etc

Anything is possible.

Or, is it?
~dL



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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Germ

png8i also thought it wuld be bifty n be good for my pride if it was possible, think i will just stick to graphics and code...On 6/15/06, 
Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Germ wrote:> Im starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the> first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle> which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic???
You should probably just use an image image, as the box model onlysupports square boxes.  There are some neat tricks using borders tocreate angles that you could try, but the technique is fairly limited
unless you add a lot of extraneous divs, but then that makes it quitecomplicated.div { width: 0; border-bottom: 6em solid green; border-left: 6em solid transparent; border-right: 6em solid transparent;
}> I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etcWhile that's generally true, graphics can be quite small if you use anappropriate format.  If it's just solid colour(s) (which is all that can
be achieved using the above technique) then saving it as PNG8 shouldgive you an image around 2-3KB or less.--Lachlan Hunthttp://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Lachlan Hunt


Germ wrote:

Im starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the
first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle 
which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic???


You should probably just use an image image, as the box model only 
supports square boxes.  There are some neat tricks using borders to 
create angles that you could try, but the technique is fairly limited 
unless you add a lot of extraneous divs, but then that makes it quite 
complicated.


div {
width: 0;
border-bottom: 6em solid green;
border-left: 6em solid transparent;
border-right: 6em solid transparent;
}


I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc


While that's generally true, graphics can be quite small if you use an 
appropriate format.  If it's just solid colour(s) (which is all that can 
be achieved using the above technique) then saving it as PNG8 should 
give you an image around 2-3KB or less.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Germ

I'd suggest a graphic - a GIF for the triangular piece wouldn't need to be more than a few hundred bytes.
OK cool, I will do that then. I just thought if we can do rounded corners and all this other fancy stuff why not be able to do triangles etc
Before starting a starting a web and graphics company spend 1 - 2 years getting a little experiance.Its hard to get experience and so ive figered that the best way is to just go out and get some and earn some money at the same time.
 I have asked several people on clues, tips and charging etcThanks for your help

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Seona Bellamy

On 15/06/06, Germ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HelloIm sorry if this question may seem silly or strange, so if it does please humour meIm starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc
I hope that makes sense and is explainable...Well, from looking at the image I would suggest that the easiest way is to do a bit of both (I seem to remember reading somewhere about a way of making cut-cornered boxes, but I also remember thinking that it was an awful lot of code for such a simple concept). The green area above your navigation bar could easily be coded in as a background colour to the header area. Then make the triangle a graphic and apply it as a background to the content section below. That way you're using the least amount of graphic possible to get the effect.
Of course, someone might now of a simple way to achieve the slanted effect through CSS, in which case I'd love to hear about it too. :)Cheers,Seona.

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Lachlan Hardy

On 6/15/06, Germ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HelloIm sorry if this question may seem silly or strange, so if it does please humour meIm starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc
You could start with this and see what you can build from there:http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/slantastic/demo.html
But, frankly, I'd probably just use an image as Steve suggested ;)

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Mathew Patterson

You *might* be able to hack something like this uphttp://www.howtocreate.co.uk/tutorials/css/slopesbut it would not be worthwhile when you could just usea simple background image. The file size of that image wouldbe miniscule.Mathewhttp://www.signal7.com.auhttp://designersinhouse.comOn 15/06/2006, at 2:29 PM, Germ wrote:HelloIm sorry if this question may seem silly or strange, so if it does please humour meIm starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc I hope that makes sense and is explainable...-- GermWorkshttp://www.germworks.nethttp://germworks.blogspot.com/ http://www.germworks.net/Phantom **The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread del usr

It does circles too :)Before starting a starting a web and graphics company spend 1 - 2 years getting a little experiance.PS Im not trying to be a smart ass. Just trying to save your first clients some money.
On 6/15/06, Germ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HelloIm sorry if this question may seem silly or strange, so if it does please humour meIm starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc
I hope that makes sense and is explainable...-- GermWorkshttp://www.germworks.net
http://germworks.blogspot.com/
http://www.germworks.net/Phantom

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Re: [WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Doc

Germ,You can define polygons in Flash or SVG, but not an HTML div - those are all block (literally) level elements of rectangular shape. I'd suggest a graphic - a GIF for the triangular piece wouldn't need to be more than a few hundred bytes.
SteveOn 15/06/06, Germ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Im starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc
--Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBADirector, User Experience StrategyRed SquareP: +612 8289 4930
M: +61 417 061 292Member, UPA - www.upassoc.orgMember, IxDA - www.ixda.orgMember, Web Standards Group - 
www.webstandardsgroup.org

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[WSG] Can Divs be a triangle shape?

2006-06-14 Thread Germ

HelloIm sorry if this question may seem silly or strange, so if it does please humour meIm starting a web and graphics company with my mate and he has given me the first prototype/ screnshot for our webpage and he has this triangle which Im curious if i can code it or would I have to use a graphic??? I dont really want to use graphics as code is faster to upload etc
I hope that makes sense and is explainable...-- GermWorkshttp://www.germworks.nethttp://germworks.blogspot.com/
http://www.germworks.net/Phantom

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Re: [WSG] Jumping content in Firefox

2006-06-14 Thread Mark Sheppard

It's the lack of the scroll bar in Firefox when the content doesn't go 
past the bottom of the page. It's only there when needed.


You could keep it there all the time with:
html { height:100%;  margin-bottom:1px;  }

You'll have a 1 pixel amount of scroll on all pages.

Not elegant, but it works.

Hope that helps,

Mark

Taco Fleur wrote:

Hello all,
 
Does anyone know why my content jumps in Firefox and not Internet Explorer?

The website is on http://www.apartmentrealty.com.au/site/
When going from page to page the content jumps in Firefox which is very 
annoying and I know the client will complain about it.

Any pointers would be much appreciated.
 
Kind regards,
 


*Taco Fleur *

Free Call /1800 032 982/ or Mobile /0421 851 786/
Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au  
an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …


*
  *Web Design* and Development
*
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*
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*
  Domain Registration, .COM for as low as fifteen dollars a year,
  .COM.AU for fifty dollars two years!

 


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[WSG] Jumping content in Firefox

2006-06-14 Thread Taco Fleur




Hello 
all,
 
Does anyone know why 
my content jumps in Firefox and not Internet Explorer?
The website is on http://www.apartmentrealty.com.au/site/
When going from page 
to page the content jumps in Firefox which is very annoying and I know the 
client will complain about it.
Any pointers would 
be much appreciated.
 
Kind 
regards,
 
Taco Fleur 
Free Call 1800 032 982 or 
Mobile 0421 851 786Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with 
commercial IT experience since 1994 …


  
  Web Design and 
  Development 
  
  Accept online Credit 
  Card payments www.commerceengine.com.au 
  
  
  SMS Solutions, including developer 
  API
  
  Domain Registration, .COM for as 
  low as fifteen dollars a year, .COM.AU for fifty dollars two 
  years!
 

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[WSG] Winner! OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Cole Kuryakin

Thanks to all for their suggestions regarding my issue.

Georg, however DID solved the issue nicely - and without the need for IE
CC's - with his explanation below.

His instruction about adding an empty comment to each of the two divs in
quested eliminated the problem by 80%; when I completed his instruction by
amending the .homePage height from 585px to 580px, the fix was complete.

NOW, here's an interesting side note: I wondered why altering the .homePage
class height to an even number (580px vs the original 585px) would complete
the "fix". So I tried 586px - which also worked - where 587px did not.

Things that make you go "hum": so - I guess for some reason - IE not
only doesn't like empty divs, it also doesn't care for odd numbered height
declarations.

Georg, thanks to you I still have a few hairs left. Your assistance was
great!

Cole

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT - but really need help

Cole Kuryakin wrote:
> http://www.x7m.us/_problems/problem.htm

> Layout displays as per spec in FF, Netscape, Opera. But look at it in
> IE and you'll see the y-repeated background in both the #nav_bar and
> #content divs are increasing the height of the wrapper by about 3px.

IE/win doesn't see "empty divs" as being empty, without "something else"
inside those divs. Thus, IE will add 'line-height' to what it sees as a
space.

So, add a comment in there...

...and even IE/win will get the message.

Then, correct the height slightly, from...
.homePage {height: 585px;}
...to...
.homePage {height: 580px;}
...and it should work.

Of course: fixed heights will easily make content overflow containers,
if anyone ever apply font-resize at the User end. Not part of _this_
problem though.

Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no

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Re: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun


Cole Kuryakin wrote:
So, so-far, IE CC is the way I'll go unless someone can say: "Hey 
Cole, this is what you're doing wrong with your css. Do ***this*** 
and it'll be fixed without the need to use IE CC"


:-)

I just did.

Covering up for one of IE's many whitespace bugs is *not* necessary,
when you can make the whitespace bug go away.

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Matt Fitzwater

why not solve it by adding a surrounding div#nav_footer and the 
#content_footer , I think it's your only option with ie?


IE bites.

Cole Kuryakin wrote:


Thanks Paul. I'll take a look. I try to stay away from hacks as much as
possible, but I'll give it a look. Thanks for the link.

Cole

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

Hi Cole,

I dunno if I can SOLVE it (and I see the problem in IE), but instead of
conditional comments couldn't you use Tanta's box-model hack to serve
the bottom negative margin to IE?

http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

I know it's still a hack, but due to the discrepancies between gecko and
IE box models it may be the only way?

Paul


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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Richard Czeiger

I just like the look of camelCase - it's easier to read and (as pointed out) 
it can be applied to most languages.


But really consistency is the key...

R  ;o) 





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RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Cole Kuryakin

Thanks Paul. I'll take a look. I try to stay away from hacks as much as
possible, but I'll give it a look. Thanks for the link.

Cole

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

Hi Cole,

I dunno if I can SOLVE it (and I see the problem in IE), but instead of
conditional comments couldn't you use Tanta's box-model hack to serve
the bottom negative margin to IE?

http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

I know it's still a hack, but due to the discrepancies between gecko and
IE box models it may be the only way?

Paul

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RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Cole Kuryakin









Del –

 

I have tried IE CC, and it does work for
my purposes. Thanks for weighing in. I was really wondering if I was doing
something wrong in the CSS to cause this, or if it’s just the nature of
the beast (IE) that’s causing the problem.

 

So, so-far, IE CC is the way I’ll go
unless someone can say: “Hey Cole, this is what you’re doing wrong
with your css. Do ***this*** and it’ll be fixed without the need to use
IE CC”

 

Cole

 









From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of del usr
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:42
AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT - but really
need help



 

Have you tried conditional comments??

Place this in the head section of your code and change the div_name to whatever
it should be.





More info:


 http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp
 
 http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html




On 6/15/06, Cole
Kuryakin < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

I know this type of question is off topic for this list, but I've
almost 
pulled the last of my hairs out over this problem.

If anyone can help me solve it, I'd be VERY greatful.

Here's the link: http://www.x7m.us/_problems/problem.htm


Layout displays as per spec in FF, Netscape, Opera. But look at it in IE and
you'll see the y-repeated background in both the #nav_bar and #content divs
are increasing the height of the wrapper by about 3px. 

IE 3px bug? Peekaboo bug? That's what I thought, as the wrapper does contain
2 floated divs. But I've tried every solution I've found on the net for this
problem yet the issue persists.

The only thing that "works" is declaring "bottom: -4px;" to
both #nav_footer 
and #content_footer. Of course, this screws-up footer area big-time in FF,
N, and O.

Is there something I've overlooked and/or am doing wrong? Or is this simply
the perfect scenario to implement IE conditional comments in order to alter 
the rules for the sake of IE?

Great appreciation to everyone in advance,

Cole


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RE: [WSG] New design and safari - neurotic

2006-06-14 Thread Rachel May

Just a separate comment on the design...

I know I'm a minority but I am on a 24 inch monitor - 1920 * 1200 resolution
- and the layout kinda breaks...  The background image isn't wide enough and
sits way off to the right; the content is way at the top; and the navigation
is way at the bottom left on a white background.

Really cool effect and layout for smaller resolutions, but looks very
bizarre for me.  Although not unuseable and better than some other sites
I've seen!

If only min and max widths were widely supported already...

Rachel :o)



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Felix Miata
Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2006 12:29 a.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] New design and safari - neurotic

On 06/06/14 10:17 (GMT+0200) Carlos Rincon Sanchez apparently typed:

> we have redesign our web http://www.neuroticweb.com/

> Someone tell us the web doesn't show well in safari (when you go to
> section menu the content goes down)

> Anyone knows why this happen?

You can see Safari for yourself on http://www.snugtech.com/safaritest/ .

It doesn't necessarily show well in Firefox either, as you can see here
when I enforce a minimum font size equal to my 20px default:
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/carlrs1.jpg
-- 
"All have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun


Cole Kuryakin wrote:

http://www.x7m.us/_problems/problem.htm



Layout displays as per spec in FF, Netscape, Opera. But look at it in
IE and you'll see the y-repeated background in both the #nav_bar and
#content divs are increasing the height of the wrapper by about 3px.


IE/win doesn't see "empty divs" as being empty, without "something else"
inside those divs. Thus, IE will add 'line-height' to what it sees as a
space.

So, add a comment in there...


...and even IE/win will get the message.

Then, correct the height slightly, from...
.homePage {height: 585px;}
...to...
.homePage {height: 580px;}
...and it should work.

Of course: fixed heights will easily make content overflow containers,
if anyone ever apply font-resize at the User end. Not part of _this_
problem though.

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Paul Bennett

 
>conditional comments couldn't you use Tanta's box-model hack to serve

Yes that was originally 'Tantek' - stoopid spellcheck


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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Kevin Futter

Title: Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

On 15/6/06 11:13 AM, "James Laugesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Oooo very cool.
Is the last 'a' pronounced long or short?

On 15/06/06, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
On 15/6/06 10:43 AM, "Adam Burmister (DSL AK)" < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:

PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl, isn't it?
Yes it is, which is why we decided to drop the 'Case'. Pascal is a boy's name in French and means 'passover' in Hebrew apparently. We just thought it was a cool name, even though I failed to find it in any of the W3C specs ...

Short, as I’m not French, or pretentious (pronounced like ‘Paskle’ rather than ‘Pascarl’). Definitely off-topic now, so I think I’ll leave it there before I’m moderated off the list entirely ...

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Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

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RE: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Paul Bennett

Hi Cole,

I dunno if I can SOLVE it (and I see the problem in IE), but instead of
conditional comments couldn't you use Tanta's box-model hack to serve
the bottom negative margin to IE?

http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html

I know it's still a hack, but due to the discrepancies between gecko and
IE box models it may be the only way?

Paul


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Re: [WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread del usr

Have you tried conditional comments??Place this in the head section of your code and change the div_name to whatever it should be.More info:http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.htmlOn 6/15/06, Cole Kuryakin <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I know this type of question is off topic for this list, but I've almost
pulled the last of my hairs out over this problem.If anyone can help me solve it, I'd be VERY greatful.Here's the link: http://www.x7m.us/_problems/problem.htm
Layout displays as per spec in FF, Netscape, Opera. But look at it in IE andyou'll see the y-repeated background in both the #nav_bar and #content divsare increasing the height of the wrapper by about 3px.
IE 3px bug? Peekaboo bug? That's what I thought, as the wrapper does contain2 floated divs. But I've tried every solution I've found on the net for thisproblem yet the issue persists.The only thing that "works" is declaring "bottom: -4px;" to both #nav_footer
and #content_footer. Of course, this screws-up footer area big-time in FF,N, and O.Is there something I've overlooked and/or am doing wrong? Or is this simplythe perfect scenario to implement IE conditional comments in order to alter
the rules for the sake of IE?Great appreciation to everyone in advance,Cole**The discussion list for  
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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Susie Gardner-Brown

Title: Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements



Well, the french way of pronouncing that would be ‘Pascaarl’ with the emphasis on the 2nd syllable ... :)

Nice name!


On 15/6/06 11:13 AM, "James Laugesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Oooo very cool.
Is the last 'a' pronounced long or short?

On 15/06/06, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]   > wrote:
On 15/6/06 10:43 AM, "Adam Burmister (DSL AK)" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]  > wrote:

PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl, isn't it?
 
Yes it is, which is why we decided to drop the 'Case'. Pascal is a boy's name in French and means 'passover' in Hebrew apparently. We just thought it was a cool name, even though I failed to find it in any of the W3C specs ... 







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[WSG] OT - but really need help

2006-06-14 Thread Cole Kuryakin

I know this type of question is off topic for this list, but I've almost
pulled the last of my hairs out over this problem.

If anyone can help me solve it, I'd be VERY greatful.

Here's the link: http://www.x7m.us/_problems/problem.htm

Layout displays as per spec in FF, Netscape, Opera. But look at it in IE and
you'll see the y-repeated background in both the #nav_bar and #content divs
are increasing the height of the wrapper by about 3px.

IE 3px bug? Peekaboo bug? That's what I thought, as the wrapper does contain
2 floated divs. But I've tried every solution I've found on the net for this
problem yet the issue persists.

The only thing that "works" is declaring "bottom: -4px;" to both #nav_footer
and #content_footer. Of course, this screws-up footer area big-time in FF,
N, and O.

Is there something I've overlooked and/or am doing wrong? Or is this simply
the perfect scenario to implement IE conditional comments in order to alter
the rules for the sake of IE?

Great appreciation to everyone in advance,

Cole


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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread James Laugesen

Oooo very cool.Is the last 'a' pronounced long or short?On 15/06/06, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

On 15/6/06 10:43 AM, "Adam Burmister (DSL AK)" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Lachlan Hunt


David Dixon wrote:
The only advice I can really give is be consistent, or you'll just end 
up confusing not just yourself, but anyone else who has to look through 
your code.


I would recommend that one of the following would be most useful (for 
popularity, and understandability):


PascalCase - generally used more for Object/Class declarations 
(especially in Java, PHP etc)


camelCase or underscore_style - probably the two most used styles. Used 
for creating variables, functions etc


PascalCase is just a variant of camelCase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CamelCase

I don't recommend those for use in CSS.  CSS is not a programming 
language, classes and IDs are not variables.  You should be able to 
clearly identify classes and IDs used in JavaScript and distinguish them 
from javascript variable names.  There's little reason to carry a 
programming lanaguage convention across to a markup and style languages.


UPPERCASE_UNDERSCORE - prob best to stay clear of this in general usage, 
but useful for identifying constants, and globalised variables.


That's definately not recommended for use in CSS because there are no 
constants or global variables in CSS.



I would steer clear of the following:

Hungarian Notation - usually seen as oMyObj - using an initial 
identifier to show the type of variables ([o]bject, [i]nt, [s]tring 
etc), in practice however, it can be very confusing.


Actually, that's Systems Hungarian and it illustrates the abuse that led 
to its downfall.  The original Hungarian notation (now called Apps 
Hungarian) was not intended to indicate the data type, it was meant to 
indicate the 'usage type' (i.e. the variables purpose).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation

hyphenated-style - similar to underscore_style - unlike the others, this 
style is not universal (eg. cannot use in PHP). As css uses this style 
for naming its properties, it might seem like a good idea... but avoid 
if possible.


No, use this one for classes and IDs because it's the easiest to read 
and, unlike most programming languages, there's no restriction of the 
use of a hyphen (usually used as the minus operator).  Plus using all 
lowercase means you nicely avoid case sensitivity issues.


As I said, the main thing to consider is consistency, even within 
different languages...


It's important to be consistent, but there's no reason to carry your 
PHP, C++, JavaScript or whatever other programming language conventions 
across to markup and stylesheet langauges.


adopting a single style for css, javascript, php 
etc will make your code much more understandable


That doesn't make sense.  Since there aren't yet any variables in CSS, 
it doesn't make sense to do so.  Classes and IDs are not variables and 
shouldn't be treated as such.


It may make sense to use camelCase if and when 'string-set' gets 
implemented (from CSS3 Generated Content drafts), because that 
effectively is a variable.


e.g.
@page { @top-center { content: string(pageHeader) }}
h1 { string-set: pageHeader "Chapter " counter(chapter) content() }

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Kevin Futter

Title: Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements



On 15/6/06 10:43 AM, "Adam Burmister (DSL AK)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl, isn’t it?
 
Yes it is, which is why we decided to drop the ‘Case’. Pascal is a boy’s name in French and means ‘passover’ in Hebrew apparently. We just thought it was a cool name, even though I failed to find it in any of the W3C specs ...

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread James Laugesen

Adam said:PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl,
isn't it?I was thinking the same thing, hahah.Just think of all the trouble she'll have with people miss-casing her name =8-)On 15/06/06, 
Adam Burmister (DSL AK) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



















PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl,
isn't it?

 









From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Futter
Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2006 12:25
p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about
naming CSS elements



 

On 14/6/06 1:56 PM, "James
Laugesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

LOL hahah I stand corrected, thanks
Kevin =8-)
So I use PascalCase for classes and camelCase for ID's.

PS For a bit of a giggle; when I first read your reply I thought ", no
no, I'm sure it's CamelCase, I'll just fire up wikipedia and chec... oh yes,
Wiki... WikiWiki... PascalCase... bugga". 

I think another term for it might be InitialCaps, but
I'm not entirely sure about that one. I wasn't aware of the term
PascalCase, though I probably should be – it's my daughter's
name!

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

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RE: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Adam Burmister \(DSL AK\)

Title: Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements








PascalCase is a very odd name for a girl,
isn’t it?

 









From:
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Futter
Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2006 12:25
p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about
naming CSS elements



 

On 14/6/06 1:56 PM, "James
Laugesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

LOL hahah I stand corrected, thanks
Kevin =8-)
So I use PascalCase for classes and camelCase for ID's.

PS For a bit of a giggle; when I first read your reply I thought ", no
no, I'm sure it's CamelCase, I'll just fire up wikipedia and chec... oh yes,
Wiki... WikiWiki... PascalCase... bugga". 

I think another term for it might be InitialCaps, but
I’m not entirely sure about that one. I wasn’t aware of the term
PascalCase, though I probably should be – it’s my daughter’s
name!

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

--
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the e-mail and all copies. The College does not guarantee that this e-mail is
virus or error free. The attached files are provided and may only be used on
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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Kevin Futter

Title: Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

On 14/6/06 1:56 PM, "James Laugesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

LOL hahah I stand corrected, thanks Kevin =8-)
So I use PascalCase for classes and camelCase for ID's.

PS For a bit of a giggle; when I first read your reply I thought ", no no, I'm sure it's CamelCase, I'll just fire up wikipedia and chec... oh yes, Wiki... WikiWiki... PascalCase... bugga".

I think another term for it might be InitialCaps, but I’m not entirely sure about that one. I wasn’t aware of the term PascalCase, though I probably should be – it’s my daughter’s name!

--
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/

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RE: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online

2006-06-14 Thread Steven . Faulkner


>Hey great!

>Um Where can we sign up?



see  my next post [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online
(with links this time!!)

with regards

Steve


|-+->
| |   "Paul Bennett"|
| |   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]|
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| |   Sent by:  |
| |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
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| | |
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| |   AM|
| |   Please respond to |
| |   wsg   |
| | |
|-+->
  
>---|
  | 
  |
  |   To:
  |
  |   cc:   
  |
  |   Subject:  RE: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online
  |
  
>---|




Hey great!

Um Where can we sign up?

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online






 Accessible Content magazine

 Is a print magazine available free to subscribers (you need to pay for

 mailing costs)


 Online versions of the magazine are available to subscribers as soon as

 the print version is released and to non-subscribers after the print

 version has been on the streets for 60 days.


 latest issue available online:


 Vol. 2, Num. 1 - Dealing with Change


 Content includes -

   Understanding AJAX. It's the new buzzword in web development, but

   what impact does it have on accessibility?

   Showing Good Form. A two-parter about making complex web forms

   accessible (the first part's in the print version of the magazine,

   but the second part is exclusive to the web).

   CAPTCHA FAQs. How accessible are those tests that are used to tell

   humans from computers? Are there accessible alternatives?

   Best Practices for Big Sites. HP shares their best practices for

   keeping a huge corporate site accessible.



 Previous Issues:

   Vol. 1, Num. 3 - Under the Hood of Accessible Sites

   Vol. 1, Num. 2 - The PDF Issue

   Vol. 1, Num. 1 - The Hidden Text Issue








with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
vision australia - information & library service
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org

Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar
[http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/toolbar/]





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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online (with links this time!!)

2006-06-14 Thread Steven . Faulkner


Sorry forgot the links :-((

Accessible Content
magazine[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/index.php?view=home]

 Is a print magazine available free to subscribers (you need to pay for

 mailing costs)


 Online versions of the magazine are available to subscribers as soon as

 the print version is released and to non-subscribers after the print

 version has been on the streets for 60 days.


 latest issue available online:


 Vol. 2, Num. 1 - Dealing with Change
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v2n1/index.php?view=toc]


 Content includes -

   Understanding AJAX
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v2n1/index.php?view=ajax]. It's
the new buzzword in web development, but
   what impact does it have on accessibility?

   Showing Good Form
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v2n1/index.php?view=forms1]. A
two-parter about making complex web forms
   accessible (the first part's in the print version of the magazine,

   but the second part is exclusive to the web).

   CAPTCHA FAQs
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v2n1/index.php?view=captcha]. How
accessible are those tests that are used to tell
   humans from computers? Are there accessible alternatives?

   Best Practices for Big Sites
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v2n1/index.php?view=HPpractices].
HP shares their best practices for
   keeping a huge corporate site accessible.



 Previous Issues:

   Vol. 1, Num. 3 - Under the Hood of Accessible Sites
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v1n3/index.php?view=toc]

   Vol. 1, Num. 2 - The PDF Issue
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v1n2/index.php?view=toc]

   Vol. 1, Num. 1 - The Hidden Text Issue
[http://www.accessiblecontent.com/online/v1n1/index.php?view=toc]




with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
vision australia - information & library service
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org

Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar
[http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/toolbar/]



|-+-->
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| |   alia.org.au|
| |   Sent by:   |
| |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
| |   rg |
| |  |
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| |   15/06/2006 08:54 AM|
| |   Please respond to wsg  |
| |  |
|-+-->
  
>---|
  | 
  |
  |   To:   wsg@webstandardsgroup.org   
  |
  |   cc:   
  |
  |   Subject:  [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online
  |
  
>---|









 Accessible Content magazine

 Is a print magazine available free to subscribers (you need to pay for

 mailing costs)


 Online versions of the magazine are available to subscribers as soon as

 the print version is released and to non-subscribers after the print

 version has been on the streets for 60 days.


 latest issue available online:


 Vol. 2, Num. 1 - Dealing with Change


 Content includes -

   Understanding AJAX. It's the new buzzword in web development, but

   what impact does it have on accessibility?

   Showing Good Form. A two-parter about making complex web forms

   accessible (the first part's in the print version of the magazine,

   but the second part is exclusive to the web).

   CAPTCHA FAQs. How accessible are those tests that are used to tell

   humans from computers? Are there accessible alternatives?

   Best Practices for Big Sites. HP shares their best practices for

   keeping a huge corporate site accessible.



 Previous Issues:

   Vol. 1, Num. 3 - Under the Hood of Accessible Sites

   Vol. 1, Num. 2 - The PDF Issue

   Vol. 1, Num. 1 - The Hidden Text Issue








with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
vision australia - information & library service
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org

Download the Web Acc

RE: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online

2006-06-14 Thread Paul Bennett

Hey great!

Um Where can we sign up? 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online

 Accessible Content magazine
 Is a print magazine available free to subscribers (you need to pay for 
 mailing costs) 

 Online versions of the magazine are available to subscribers as soon as
 the print version is released and to non-subscribers after the print   
 version has been on the streets for 60 days.   

 latest issue available online: 

 Vol. 2, Num. 1 - Dealing with Change   

 Content includes - 
   Understanding AJAX. It's the new buzzword in web development, but
   what impact does it have on accessibility?   
   Showing Good Form. A two-parter about making complex web forms   
   accessible (the first part's in the print version of the magazine,   
   but the second part is exclusive to the web).
   CAPTCHA FAQs. How accessible are those tests that are used to tell   
   humans from computers? Are there accessible alternatives?
   Best Practices for Big Sites. HP shares their best practices for 
   keeping a huge corporate site accessible.

 Previous Issues:   
   Vol. 1, Num. 3 - Under the Hood of Accessible Sites  
   Vol. 1, Num. 2 - The PDF Issue   
   Vol. 1, Num. 1 - The Hidden Text Issue   

with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
vision australia - information & library service
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org

Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar
[http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/toolbar/]

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[WSG] Accessible Content magazine - available online

2006-06-14 Thread Steven . Faulkner






 Accessible Content magazine
 Is a print magazine available free to subscribers (you need to pay for 
 mailing costs) 

 Online versions of the magazine are available to subscribers as soon as
 the print version is released and to non-subscribers after the print   
 version has been on the streets for 60 days.   

 latest issue available online: 

 Vol. 2, Num. 1 - Dealing with Change   

 Content includes - 
   Understanding AJAX. It's the new buzzword in web development, but
   what impact does it have on accessibility?   
   Showing Good Form. A two-parter about making complex web forms   
   accessible (the first part's in the print version of the magazine,   
   but the second part is exclusive to the web).
   CAPTCHA FAQs. How accessible are those tests that are used to tell   
   humans from computers? Are there accessible alternatives?
   Best Practices for Big Sites. HP shares their best practices for 
   keeping a huge corporate site accessible.


 Previous Issues:   
   Vol. 1, Num. 3 - Under the Hood of Accessible Sites  
   Vol. 1, Num. 2 - The PDF Issue   
   Vol. 1, Num. 1 - The Hidden Text Issue   







with regards

Steven Faulkner
Web Accessibility Consultant
vision australia - information & library service
454 Glenferrie Road
Kooyong Victoria 3144
Phone: (613) 9864 9281
Fax: (613) 9864 9210
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.accessibleinfo.org.au | www.wat-c.org

Download the Web Accessibility Toolbar
[http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/toolbar/]





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Re: [WSG] Webstock conference recordings

2006-06-14 Thread Darren Wood


On 6/15/06, Mike Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We now have all the recordings made at the recent Webstock conference
 available from the site.


Excellent!  Good work Mike!  Now I can relive the goodness! :-D

D


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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread James Laugesen

PascalCase for classes allows for "variables" (or ID's in this case) of the same name.Hungarian Notation is a curse IMO, only of a bit of use in losely typed languages... but even still your member names should be descriptive enough to make it blatently obvious what datatype it would be (relative to the current environment)... obviously something like "loopCounter" or "i" isn't going to be a string.
David said:the main thing to consider is consistencyThat's where I'm coming from too, consistency across all lanauges even.On 15/06/06, 
Adam Burmister (DSL AK) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I use PascalCase for classes and camelCase for ID's.What's the benefits of using PascalCase for classes? It's not as if youdon't know which is which, "id=" and "class=" are pretty apparent.
I'd say camelCase for sure. But I have been brought up on C, C++, Java,and I still insist on it in C#.- AFrom: 
listdad@webstandardsgroup.org[mailto:listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of James LaugesenSent: Wednesday, 14 June 2006 3:56 p.m.To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgLOL hahah I stand corrected, thanks Kevin =8-)PS For a bit of a giggle; when I first read your reply I thought ",no no, I'm sure it's CamelCase, I'll just fire up wikipedia and chec...
oh yes, Wiki... WikiWiki... PascalCase... bugga".On 14/06/06, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On 14/6/06 1:01 PM, "James Laugesen" < 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I use CamelCase or "propper case" for CSS classes; just a habbit(standard?) from OO programming; where classes (should) always be named
using CamelCase.And I use lower-case first letter + upper case for ID's, as they areunique for 1 HTML element only, they (IMO) represent a "variable", soagain, I follow my OO habbits (standards?) of lowerCaseFirstLetter.
Actually, "lowerCaseFirstLetter" is camelCase (not CamelCase - ever seea camel with a hump on its arse?).--Kevin FutterWebmaster, St. Bernard's College
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Re: [WSG] Webstock conference recordings

2006-06-14 Thread Mathew Patterson


Great stuff Mike,
It is heartening to see web conferences actually walking the walk
and using the web to extend their reach. Congratulations.

Mathew Patterson
http://www.signal7.com.au
http://www.deignersinhouse.com

On 15/06/2006, at 8:35 AM, Mike Brown wrote:


Hi everyone

We now have all the recordings made at the recent Webstock conference
 available from the site.




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[WSG] Webstock conference recordings

2006-06-14 Thread Mike Brown

Hi everyone

We now have all the recordings made at the recent Webstock conference
 available from the site.

There's a wealth of wonderful stuff there, including Doug Bowman on a
common structure for webpages, Ben Goodger on Firefox and Tony Chor on
IE7. The Darren Fittler presentation - using the web as a blind person -
is pretty much all you need to convince people of the importance of
accessibility.

And see Russ Weakley blather on about tagging :)

Enjoy :)

Mike Brown
for the Webstock team



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RE: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread Adam Burmister \(DSL AK\)

> So I use PascalCase for classes and camelCase for ID's.

What's the benefits of using PascalCase for classes? It's not as if you
don't know which is which, "id=" and "class=" are pretty apparent.

I'd say camelCase for sure. But I have been brought up on C, C++, Java,
and I still insist on it in C#. 

- A

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Laugesen
Sent: Wednesday, 14 June 2006 3:56 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

LOL hahah I stand corrected, thanks Kevin =8-)

PS For a bit of a giggle; when I first read your reply I thought ",
no no, I'm sure it's CamelCase, I'll just fire up wikipedia and chec...
oh yes, Wiki... WikiWiki... PascalCase... bugga". 
On 14/06/06, Kevin Futter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 14/6/06 1:01 PM, "James Laugesen" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I use CamelCase or "propper case" for CSS classes; just a habbit
(standard?) from OO programming; where classes (should) always be named
using CamelCase. 
And I use lower-case first letter + upper case for ID's, as they are
unique for 1 HTML element only, they (IMO) represent a "variable", so
again, I follow my OO habbits (standards?) of lowerCaseFirstLetter. 
Actually, "lowerCaseFirstLetter" is camelCase (not CamelCase - ever see
a camel with a hump on its arse?). 

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/



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Re: [WSG] Question about naming CSS elements

2006-06-14 Thread David Dixon

I don't think you will ever find a unified agreement on the way naming 
conventions are used. Even after a couple of replies, you can clearly 
see that even people promoting web standards can use different styles.


The only advice I can really give is be consistent, or you'll just end 
up confusing not just yourself, but anyone else who has to look through 
your code.


I would recommend that one of the following would be most useful (for 
popularity, and understandability):


PascalCase - generally used more for Object/Class declarations 
(especially in Java, PHP etc)


camelCase or underscore_style - probably the two most used styles. Used 
for creating variables, functions etc


UPPERCASE_UNDERSCORE - prob best to stay clear of this in general usage, 
but useful for identifying constants, and globalised variables.


I would steer clear of the following:

Hungarian Notation - usually seen as oMyObj - using an initial 
identifier to show the type of variables ([o]bject, [i]nt, [s]tring 
etc), in practice however, it can be very confusing.


hyphenated-style - similar to underscore_style - unlike the others, this 
style is not universal (eg. cannot use in PHP). As css uses this style 
for naming its properties, it might seem like a good idea... but avoid 
if possible.


As I said, the main thing to consider is consistency, even within 
different languages... adopting a single style for css, javascript, php 
etc will make your code much more understandable for you and others (its 
very time wasting to be half way through coding, and then realising 
you've used your php style in javascript etc).


Thanks,

David.

tee g.peng wrote:

Good evening and good morning!

I remember reading an interesting thread about using  lowercase for  
CSS element naming, but I can't seemed to find that thread from mail- 
archive. Vaguely I remember it was something about xml wellformness -  
before reading that thread, I used to use lower uppercase names, and  
thought it was just one's preferences.


I have tried to pick up good habit since I read the thread. Was  
reading CSS Mastery, Advanced Web Standards Solution by Andy Budd,  
and it got me confused a bit. The author used lower uppercases for  
examples throughout the entire book. I crossed check with other CSS  
books I have, they all used lowercases and the only exception is in  
More Eric Meyer on CSS, the last chapter, project 10, Designing in  
the Garden, I said it was an exception because that project was for  
CSS Zen Garden that the code could not be altered.


Not trying to stir up anything here. I simply want to learn the  
correct way, since that the book titled itself 'Advance Web Standards  
Solutions' therefor I would like to confirm what I learned from that  
thread is the 'correct' way, or rather, there isn't anything right or  
wrong as to how one names his CSS.


Thank you!

tee


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RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an example of some accessible forms

2006-06-14 Thread Mike Foskett

Hey Jon,

You are missing the point I think:

"All of the form controls use explicit LABELs so that there is no need for 
a screen reader to go into TITLE or TABLE reading mode to hear the label when a 
control gets focus."

The adding of a title to the whole form means that every untitled element it 
contains has a tooltip that says "Form example 5" which is a hindrance to those 
of us blessed with sight.
Consider mousing over the radio controls and that's the tooltip. Not helpful in 
anyway is it? Possibly adding to the confusion.

I point out that screen-reader users tend to not switch on table header 
associations but some do switch on title.
Therefore on the table example, nice mark-up btw, it would be more appropriate 
to add titles to each of the radios / checkboxes which indicate meaning. Rather 
than relying on associations. Better still would be hidden labels on each as 
this does not rely on users switching on features.


Cometary to your statement the example page does not use explicit labelling 
throughout:
 Ranking option 1 
label

"The two ways in HTML to define a LABEL for a form control are through either 
reference or encapsulation: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL";

Otherwise known as explicit (reference) and implicit (encapsulation and / or 
position)
Even the example you quote demonstrates labels follow radio and checkbox 
controls and precedes type text.


IE does not focus because of the lack of explicit labelling. While this is a 
fault in IE it should not be ignored.
Those with poor motor skills are aided by larger clickable areas.
Explicitly stated:
 Ranking option 1 label
Resolves the issue.


Pragmatically I concur with the use of headers instead of legends.
Though each form section or sub-section should be encapsulated in a fieldset.

I obviously cannot condone the use of inappropriate mark-up; Be it IBM, 
Microsoft, Netscape or Mozilla.
Though I do understand it is only by breaking standards that features improve 
and new ones added.
The form is described as a "best practice" document, as such it should stick to 
W3C formal grammars.
Otherwise you are suggesting that formal grammars are not "best practice", 
dangerous territory indeed.



regards

mike 2k:)2



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Tue 13/06/2006 18:12
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an
example of some accessible forms
 
>
>
> Everything appearing to have a title of "Form example 5" is more confusing
> than helpful especially on Questions 6, 7, 8 where a title would be more
> useful.
> My rather limited experience, with screen reader users, indicates they do
> not switch on the features that read and associate table headers, but some
> (not all) do switch on the "read titles" feature.


All of the form controls use explicit LABELs so that there is no need for a
screen reader to go into TITLE or TABLE reading mode to hear the label when
a control gets focus.

I have a query about the placement of labels on radios & checkboxes.
>
> Response A label id="q63645_1" value="1" name="q63645" type="radio">
>
> I was under an impression that screen-readers expect a label to follow a
> radio or checkbox control.
> Obviously the label is explicitly associated but doesn't it need to follow
> the control or wrap the control to be implicitly associated?
> In IE the label is not clickable either. It is an IE issue but it's still
> the most popular browser and should be supported.



The two ways in HTML to define a LABEL for a form control are through either
reference or encapsulation:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL


As in a previous form control:
>  Radio option 1
> label
>
> For some reason the "Ranking option 1 label " too.

I was under a general impression that implicit labelling is to be dropped in
> favour of the explicit labelling of controls.
> Does anyone know if I'm correct in this impression?


I have not heard of this, would be interested if this is true.

The radio set example given uses a div instead of a fieldset:
> 
> This is the instructions for a radio
> vertical question.
> 5.  This is an example of the radio
> vertical question.
> 
>  Radio option 1
> label
>  Radio option 2
> label
>  Radio option 3
> label
>  Radio option 4
> label
>  Radio option 5
> label
> 
> 
>
> Perhaps the "question" could be a legend?


I don't think screen readers navigate to LEGENDS yet, but I think the
questions should be headers, to allow header navigation to specific
question.  I will update the example with the header technique.

There's an error in the name of the first radio.
>
> The select example should state "Please select from" as a default option
> (option 0).
> Not all disabilities are physical.
>
>
>
> Tabindex as used on the p elements is a novel bending of the W3C spec.
> Personally I wouldn't suggest doing that witho

RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an example of some accessible forms

2006-06-14 Thread michael.brockington

Jon,
If you read that spec yourself you will see:
"To associate a label with another control implicitly, the control element must 
be within the contents of the LABEL element."

However that is the HTML4 spec of what is valid, not the WCAG spec for what is 
advisable (which I have quoted before) and shall paraphrase again:  "Use 
explicit labels with all input elements"  

The purpose of markup is NOT just to convey structure, it is also sometimes 
used to convey functionality, which as I said before is why forms are more 
difficult than plain content.
I agree that the semantic purpose of a label is as a description, but here the 
funtional purpose is more important, and that is (again quoting the HTML spec): 
 "When a LABEL element receives focus, it passes the focus on to its associated 
control."
In Internet explorer, clicking on an explicit label does this, but not for an 
implicit label. Can you explain why you think that you can ignore the behaviour 
of what is (unfortunatly) still the dominant browser, on which plenty of AT 
products rely?

Regards,
Mike



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Jon Gunderson
Sent: Wed 14/06/2006 14:31
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an 
example of some accessible forms
 
Michael,
You may also want to check the W3C specifications on the use of the LABEL
element:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL

There is no concept in the specification of implicit relationship between a
LABEL element being "next to" a form control.  You need to use the FOR
attribute or encapsulate to define the relationship between a LABEL and a
form control.

Jon



On 6/14/06, Jon Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
>  On 6/14/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
> >
> > Jon,
> > I think you mis-understand me, most of your form controls do have a
> > label, just not properly used.
> >
> > What you are calling 'encapsulation' does not work in IE, as another
> > member pointed out after me; the association with the form element is due
> > only to proximity, so is merely 'implicit'.
> > Some of the other labels use what you are referring to as 'label by
> > reference' which tells the browser 'explicitly' which form element the label
> > refers to, but for some reason not all of the labels have been done this
> > way.
>
>
>  I am not sure what you mean "does not work".  What does not work in IE?
>
> The purpose of markup is convey structure and IE is not the only browser
> in the world.  Screen readers use encapsulated labels.
>
> In the case of the checkbox grids for question 10,11,12, the labels have
> > been hidden, which prevents them being useful for anyone not using a sub-set
> > of AT browsers - a tiny percentage of users!
>
>
>  The hidden lables are again for compatibility with screen readers and for
> technologies that do not support stylesheets or tables (i.e. LYNX).
>
>
>
>


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an example of some accessible forms

2006-06-14 Thread Jon Gunderson

Michael,
You may also want to check the W3C specifications on the use of the LABEL element:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#edef-LABEL
 
There is no concept in the specification of implicit relationship between a LABEL element being "next to" a form control.  You need to use the FOR attribute or encapsulate to define the relationship between a LABEL and a form control.

 
Jon
 
On 6/14/06, Jon Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On 6/14/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: 
Jon,I think you mis-understand me, most of your form controls do have a label, just not properly used. 
What you are calling 'encapsulation' does not work in IE, as another member pointed out after me; the association with the form element is due only to proximity, so is merely 'implicit'.Some of the other labels use what you are referring to as 'label by reference' which tells the browser 'explicitly' which form element the label refers to, but for some reason not all of the labels have been done this way. 

 

I am not sure what you mean "does not work".  What does not work in IE?
 
The purpose of markup is convey structure and IE is not the only browser in the world.  Screen readers use encapsulated labels. 

In the case of the checkbox grids for question 10,11,12, the labels have been hidden, which prevents them being useful for anyone not using a sub-set of AT browsers - a tiny percentage of users! 

 

The hidden lables are again for compatibility with screen readers and for technologies that do not support stylesheets or tables (i.e. LYNX). 

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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms - Columnar and Grid Does anyone have an example of some accessible forms

2006-06-14 Thread Jon Gunderson


On 6/14/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
Jon,I think you mis-understand me, most of your form controls do have a label, just not properly used.
What you are calling 'encapsulation' does not work in IE, as another member pointed out after me; the association with the form element is due only to proximity, so is merely 'implicit'.Some of the other labels use what you are referring to as 'label by reference' which tells the browser 'explicitly' which form element the label refers to, but for some reason not all of the labels have been done this way.

 
I am not sure what you mean "does not work".  What does not work in IE?
 
The purpose of markup is convey structure and IE is not the only browser in the world.  Screen readers use encapsulated labels. 
In the case of the checkbox grids for question 10,11,12, the labels have been hidden, which prevents them being useful for anyone not using a sub-set of AT browsers - a tiny percentage of users!

 
The hidden lables are again for compatibility with screen readers and for technologies that do not support stylesheets or tables (i.e. LYNX). 

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Re: [WSG] New design and safari - neurotic

2006-06-14 Thread Felix Miata

On 06/06/14 10:17 (GMT+0200) Carlos Rincon Sanchez apparently typed:

> we have redesign our web http://www.neuroticweb.com/

> Someone tell us the web doesn't show well in safari (when you go to
> section menu the content goes down)

> Anyone knows why this happen?

You can see Safari for yourself on http://www.snugtech.com/safaritest/ .

It doesn't necessarily show well in Firefox either, as you can see here
when I enforce a minimum font size equal to my 20px default:
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/carlrs1.jpg
-- 
"All have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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RE: [WSG] Display Inline Problem

2006-06-14 Thread michael.brockington

This looks to be working okay in IE6 on XP except for note number three, which 
is failing to overlay the text of the following paragraph, making it virtually 
unreadable.

(Screen shot attached)

Mike


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Paula Petrik
Sent: Tue 13/06/2006 19:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Display Inline Problem
 
I am having problem figuring out where I'm going wrong or if I'm  
going wrong. On the following page:

http://www.archiva.net/footnote/csspopup2.htm

with the following CSS:

http://www.archiva.net/footnote/csspopupscreen2.css

The CSS rollovers and inline display work exactly as I want in FF 1.5  
(Mac) in all paragraphs. On Safari 2.0.3, the first paragraph works  
as it should, but the rollovers in the third paragraph display at the  
default position--left top for no discernible reason! In Opera 8.5  
(Mac), the rollovers work pretty much as they should (acceptable)  
except for note 6 which seems to have a mind of its own. No idea  
about the Windows versions of same.

Can anyone explain what is happening in Safari? Is there a CSS fix  
that would solve the problems in Safari and Opera? Does the technique  
work in IE 6? (Incidentally, both XHTML and CSS validate.)

Thank you,
Paula
http://www.archiva.net







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Re: [WSG] New design - safari bug and Opinions

2006-06-14 Thread Carlos Rincon Sanchez

El mié, 14-06-2006 a las 11:44 +0200, David Storey escribió:
> I can reproduce this in Safari 2.0.3 but it works in the latest nightly  
> builds of WebKit, so you clearly hit a WebKit bug.  In a future release of  
> Safari it will work but if you want it to work in the current release  
> you'll have to look into doing a work around.
> 
> 

If someone wants to see it I have a screenshot of the bug 
http://www.neuroticweb.com/imagenes/safari-bug-neuroticweb.jpg


On the other hand, any opinions, suggeriments and visual bugs about the
whole web will be very apreciated.

> 
-- 
Carlos Rincón Sanchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Neurotic, SCP - www.neuroticweb.com
Tel: 938 492 028 | Fax: 938 403 568
C\Can Cabatx s/n 08520
Les Franqueses del Valles



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Re: [WSG] using html elements on javascript

2006-06-14 Thread James Laugesen

Sorry Al,You'd use it like:safeEmailBold("james.laugesen", "gmail.com", "LAUGESEN, ", "James");Notice the 4 values, 1 per parameter of that function...
So "LAUGESEN, " is what you want to be bold, and "James" is the non-bold.Also I think it'd be worth a couple of hours of your time to just play through the JS tutorials on 
www.w3schools.com.JS is just programming, so it'll be knowledge you'll undoubtly be glad to have and I'm sure you're enjoy it - since you're nerdy enough to be posting the WSG after all =8-PCheers
On 14/06/06, Al Kendall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi James,  Yes I did notice the extra parameter, but I don't understand what or how it works.Do I need to add additional script to make that parameter work.    Yes as I said before I'ma 'dummy' when it comes to JS.
AlOn 6/13/06, James Laugesen <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Al, notice I added an extra parameter to your function:safeEmailBold(name, domain, boldDisplay, normalDisplay
)
It's not a perfect solution, I just wanted to make a somewhat cleaner _javascript_ function for you to play with.
JOn 13/06/06, Al Kendall <

[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi James,  Thanks for that, unfortunately it's still not working properly.   It bolds the whole name as well as adding the word 'undefined' after the name which is bold after i added the css .EmailLink {font-weight:bold;}
I'll wait until you get your "nicer" script working... here's the other half of my script