Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 2006/11/12 01:20 (GMT-0500) Christian Montoya apparently typed: > On 11/11/06, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 2006/11/11 22:17 (GMT-0500) Christian Montoya apparently typed: >> Please explain what you mean by bad scaling. > What I meant was that you can scale all of the native windows text > (menus, title bars, icons) to accommodate the laptop's ideal settings > (120 dpi, 1680x1050 pixels), but you can't scale the actual window > text of all apps. That's poor app design, probably due in most cases to inadequate tools in the most commonly used programming apps. > It's a big problem because at this "ideal" setting, > all the text is actually too small to comfortably read. So Internet > Explorer scales text, and Opera does too, as well as some Windows > apps, but Firefox doesn't FF doesn't as a part of a trade off of offering the user the finer grained control of his preference size that px offers over pt. They're one and the same if you're only doing 72 DPI, but at twice that, 144, px gives twice the control. FF doesn't adhere to the everything that can be automatic must be automatic school of design inherent in the windoz way of doing things. FF scales perfectly fine, as long as the user plays his part in determining the scale - actually going into the tools menu and setting a default to suit his own preference. Look at these to get an idea how close FF & IE can be matched up: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/ptdemo-096dpi-XP.gif http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/ptdemo-120dpi-XP.gif http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/ptdemo-144dpi-XP.gif http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/ptdemo-192dpi-XP.gif Note that at 192 DPI FF has a rounding problem, leading it to report an erroneous DPI. > A lot of it has to do with the fact that while these computers come > with support for 120 dpi, they don't come with adequate support for > font-scaling to match 120 dpi at the maximum, factory-shipped display > setting. In the end, the 120 dpi, 1680x1050 screen is pretty, but also > pretty useless. Not with KDE on Linux. Linux desktops continuously evolve, so you could have had it nice since you bought it, as well as long ago, and you still can if you don't mind using a non-monopoly OS that you need not pay any money to get. XP is rather brain dead handling high resolution. It was designed roughly 6 years ago. Vista should catch M$ up, and solve the problem for apps designed with variable resolution and DPI in mind. >> What is "it", and how to you "patch" it? > Well, first step was to go down to 1280x800 pixels, and then install a > Dell patch to turn the poor image-scaling in IE off (which was > terribly pixelated), and then I know there are some more steps that > can be taken to stop font-scaling in IE and Opera altogether, but I > just decrease the zoom in them slightly and they look fine. You can't see a good image displayed from information that doesn't exist. Displaying images closer to their intrinsic size just masks the lack of information (excessive compression for your environment). >> It isn't about 120 DPI. It's about DPIs that vary more than a little >> from whatever the page designer uses or assumes. Average DPIs have on >> their way up for quite some time, and won't be stopping any time soon. > True, but considering how bad Windows XP handles 120 dpi, I'm not > about to put all the blame on the page designer. Web pages need be no problem in this regard, as long as image sizes are adequate. That's a balancing act that works hard against POTS users and sites that are graphics heavy, but pages can be perfectly gorgeous on high quality (e.g. high resolution/tiny px) screens. All it takes is two basic things: adequate image sizes, and CSS sizing using relative measurements exclusively. There's little any OS or a web browser can do to compensate if the designer won't do what he can do that needs doing. -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/12/06, David McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: This may be a dumb question, but what's a conditional statement? David Sorry, I meant "conditional comment" http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
This may be a dumb question, but what's a conditional statement? David On 10/11/2006, at 2:53 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: David McKinnon wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. > Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I thought about this more and came up with a serious solution. Size the text with pixels, and then use conditional comments to give IE relative sizes. Pixel-sized text is mostly accessible on every other browser (and looks better too), while IE is the one that really needs relative (em) sizes. That would be the next best solution to actually removing the comments above the doctype. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/11/06, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 2006/11/11 22:17 (GMT-0500) Christian Montoya apparently typed: > Some users (like me) considered that 20 pixel font default a bug > (because the scaling is sooo bad) Please explain what you mean by bad scaling. What I meant was that you can scale all of the native windows text (menus, title bars, icons) to accommodate the laptop's ideal settings (120 dpi, 1680x1050 pixels), but you can't scale the actual window text of all apps. It's a big problem because at this "ideal" setting, all the text is actually too small to comfortably read. So Internet Explorer scales text, and Opera does too, as well as some Windows apps, but Firefox doesn't, and neither do Java apps (which means jEdit is a lot harder to use). A lot of it has to do with the fact that while these computers come with support for 120 dpi, they don't come with adequate support for font-scaling to match 120 dpi at the maximum, factory-shipped display setting. In the end, the 120 dpi, 1680x1050 screen is pretty, but also pretty useless. > and went about patching it; though > it's still a little buggy. What is "it", and how to you "patch" it? Well, first step was to go down to 1280x800 pixels, and then install a Dell patch to turn the poor image-scaling in IE off (which was terribly pixelated), and then I know there are some more steps that can be taken to stop font-scaling in IE and Opera altogether, but I just decrease the zoom in them slightly and they look fine. > Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; It isn't about 120 DPI. It's about DPIs that vary more than a little from whatever the page designer uses or assumes. Average DPIs have on their way up for quite some time, and won't be stopping any time soon. True, but considering how bad Windows XP handles 120 dpi, I'm not about to put all the blame on the page designer. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On Sunday 12 November 2006 14:17, Christian Montoya wrote: > > > Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; > and yes, I try to stick to Firefox for the consistent font sizing. > Most of the widescreen LCD monitors and laptops actually have 150 DPI, whilst most standard LCD screens are 96 DPI. Most of the problems with LCD monitors are caused by users changing the screen resolution to make screen elements larger with "jaggies" instead of making the screen elements larger with high resolution clarity. The problem is that many people haven't been taught to make screen elements larger - just how to change the resolution as they did on 14" & 15" CRT monitors. Sorry, I just don't have a solution to teaching end users to zoom and use the built in accessibility or themes to make elements larger. Inconsistent zooming in applications and browsers doesn't help either. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0)> ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 2006/11/11 22:17 (GMT-0500) Christian Montoya apparently typed: > Some users (like me) considered that 20 pixel font default a bug > (because the scaling is sooo bad) Please explain what you mean by bad scaling. > and went about patching it; though > it's still a little buggy. What is "it", and how to you "patch" it? > Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; It isn't about 120 DPI. It's about DPIs that vary more than a little from whatever the page designer uses or assumes. Average DPIs have on their way up for quite some time, and won't be stopping any time soon. It used to be that assumed DPI was substantially higher than real DPI. That caused designers to think defaults too big, which most still do, even though that assumption is now quite broken, particularly for those using widescreen displays. Check out the DPI realities on: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/dpi.html and the impact on http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Font/fonts-pt2px-tabled.html . -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/11/06, David Hucklesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One thing you need to be aware of, though, is people like me with high resolution screens on our laptops likely have Windows set to 120 DPI. This immediately creates a difference between point-based agents such as IE and Opera, and pixel based ones like Firefox. Text size defaults to 20 pixels on the point-based agents, 16 pixels on the rest. But I do have to ask, "so what?" Some users (like me) considered that 20 pixel font default a bug (because the scaling is sooo bad) and went about patching it; though it's still a little buggy. Let's just say font-sizes are problematic on these 120 dpi screens; and yes, I try to stick to Firefox for the consistent font sizing. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/12/06, David Hucklesby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (Q. Does IE 7 resize pixel-sized text?)No. Font-sizing in IE7 does not apply to pixel-sized text and there are still only five settings (largest, larger, medium, smaller, smallest). BUT ctrl-scrollwheel - which used to change font-size settings - now activates a zoom feature like Opera's which scales the entire page, images included. It moves in the opposite direction from text-size which threw me a little - scrolling down makes everything smaller, scrolling up makes everything bigger - but is still useful. Ctrl-0 resets zoom back to default like text-size in Firefox. -- Kay Smoljakbusiness: www.cleverstarfish.comstandards: kay.zombiecoder.comcoldfusion: kay.smoljak.compersonal: goatlady.wordpress.com ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
>> David McKinnon wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. >>> Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE >>> declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means >>> that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on >>> Firefox. >>> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 22:53:59 -0500, Christian Montoya responded: > > I thought about this more and came up with a serious solution. Size the > text with pixels, and then use conditional comments to give IE relative > sizes. Pixel-sized text is mostly accessible on every other browser (and > looks better too), while IE is the one that really needs relative (em) > sizes. That would be the next best solution to actually removing the > comments above the doctype. > I think that's a rather good solution, as far as it goes. One thing you need to be aware of, though, is people like me with high resolution screens on our laptops likely have Windows set to 120 DPI. This immediately creates a difference between point-based agents such as IE and Opera, and pixel based ones like Firefox. Text size defaults to 20 pixels on the point-based agents, 16 pixels on the rest. But I do have to ask, "so what?" (Q. Does IE 7 resize pixel-sized text?) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 10/11/2006, at 12:23 PM, David McKinnon wrote:
I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox.
body {
font-size: medium;
}
/* Make sure IE only sees this... use CC's if you want, I prefer *
html */
* html body {
font-size: small
}
/* use your favorite (non-keyword) sizing everywhere else. Example */
h1 {font-size: 1.6em}
no fuss, no muss.
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
David McKinnon wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. > Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I thought about this more and came up with a serious solution. Size the text with pixels, and then use conditional comments to give IE relative sizes. Pixel-sized text is mostly accessible on every other browser (and looks better too), while IE is the one that really needs relative (em) sizes. That would be the next best solution to actually removing the comments above the doctype. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 2006/11/09 21:45 (GMT-0500) ~davidLaakso apparently typed: > Felix Miata wrote: >> Quirks mode = IE5/5.5 emulation mode (bigger fonts): >> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE5.html >> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE6.html > He started off writing "I'm trying to get font sizing consistent > between IE6 and Firefox." What does your emulation mode thing that have > to do with IE6.0? You didn't absorb what I wrote. Quirks mode = IE5/5.5 emulation mode (bigger fonts). The URLs were provided to help anyone who doesn't understand that to emulate with IE6 Firefox requires standards mode. You can't do that in quirks mode. The only material difference between these two pages is quirks (5) and standards (6): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/font-default-IE5-96med.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/font-default-IE96med.html -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/10/06, ~davidLaakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. >>> He started off writing "I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox." What does your emulation mode thing that have to do with IE6.0? ~dL "throwing IE into quirksmode" <-- see OP -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
Felix Miata wrote: On 2006/11/09 20:17 (GMT-0500) ~davidLaakso apparently typed: I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I don't understand that at all. There should be no difference in the font size in IE6.0 and compliant browsers regardless of the doctype. Are you sure you you are not in IE6.0 'accessibility' mode with "ignore font sizes" checked? Are you sure text size "medium" is checked in IE6.0? Quirks mode = IE5/5.5 emulation mode (bigger fonts): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE5.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE6.html He started off writing "I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox." What does your emulation mode thing that have to do with IE6.0? ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 2006/11/09 20:17 (GMT-0500) ~davidLaakso apparently typed: >> I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. >> Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE >> declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the >> default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. > I don't understand that at all. There should be no difference in the > font size in IE6.0 and compliant browsers regardless of the doctype. Are > you sure you you are not in IE6.0 'accessibility' mode with "ignore > font sizes" checked? Are you sure text size "medium" is checked in IE6.0? Quirks mode = IE5/5.5 emulation mode (bigger fonts): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE5.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/IE/absolute-sizes-IE6.html -- "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
David McKinnon wrote: Hi, I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I don't understand that at all. There should be no difference in the font size in IE6.0 and compliant browsers regardless of the doctype. Are you sure you you are not in IE6.0 'accessibility' mode with "ignore font sizes" checked? Are you sure text size "medium" is checked in IE6.0? [trimmed} David Regards, ~dL -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
On 11/9/06, David McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I've tried setting the font-size on the body element as 76% (following Owen Briggs' recommendation: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html) and also font-size:small combined with a box-model hack to account for IE5/Win (Dan Cederholm's bulletproof version) but neither of these work with quirksmode (or at least our version of it). Any thoughts? I've got a deadline looming ... Thanks in advance. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** You could use conditional comments, or just size the text in pixels... or find a way to remove those comments! -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Font-sizing in quirksmode
Hi, I'm trying to get font sizing consistent between IE6 and Firefox. Unfortunately our CMS writes two HTML comments before the DOCTYPE declaration on each page, throwing IE into quirksmode. This means that the default text is too large on IE and much too small on Firefox. I've tried setting the font-size on the body element as 76% (following Owen Briggs' recommendation: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html) and also font-size:small combined with a box-model hack to account for IE5/Win (Dan Cederholm's bulletproof version) but neither of these work with quirksmode (or at least our version of it). Any thoughts? I've got a deadline looming ... Thanks in advance. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
