Re: Templating Solutions
David Cantrell wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:20:37AM +0100, Steve Purkis wrote: > > David Cantrell wrote: > > of course the line > > will never be 100% clear & cut-out... And as for inventing new wheels - > > well we're all coders & scientists & engineers here... That's what we > > do! > > Well yeah, and it's fun too, but in this case the new wheel is not > necessary. And if I'm building this for your company, I think you'd > rather I spent time writing a kick-ass application (which would of > course be maintainable, extensible, scalable and all sorts of other > laudable -ables) rather than spending the same amount of time writing > a kick-ass mini-language (or learning someone else's mini-language) > and a mediocre app. Agreed (though, people will sneak things like this in anyway!). But I think if you can convince your boss that spending 1 mo developing a templating system (or any set of tools, really) that you believe will increase your productivity by a large %, then you should go for it. But I stipulate: only if there's a valid business reason. And it's all the researching into what other people have done that really takes time. (as an aside: Maybe there's a real need for evaluation of modules / systems here which CPAN doesn't [can't?] cover... If I say something like `Certified', how many flames will I get? ;-) > > I see where you're coming from, but think about how this will be abused > > - coders will get lazy and eventually just embed all the business logic > > in the templates. > > Yes, they will. Unless you have proper procedures in place to prevent > it. Luckily, perl makes it rather easy to encapsulate application logic > elsewhere. Unfortunately, Perl's flexibility also makes it hard to develop procedures for ;-) > > I'd argue that embedding code in your templates is on the way out, and > > the sooner it goes the better. > > So how do you think it can be achieved? Mmm. Might have to re-phrase that - "... embedding *native* code in your templates ...". So I'm saying asp, jsp, etc.. are good attempts, but at opposite ends of the spectrum. We need a more central solution. So to answer your question... (Steve gulps at the risk of being shot for not reading the rest of this thread...): In general, I think tools like TT are going down the right path. But I think that, ultimately, this problem can be solved by introducing a simple java/ECMA-script like language into the ``html'' layer purely for presentation logic and access to application data. The language and how the application feeds data into the Somethin-script datastructures would have to be spec'd outside of Perl (for obvious reasons - it's not Perl!). Combine this in some fashion with XSL and you've got yourself a generic [perhaps over generic?] way of delivering what marketeers like to call dynamic content. The quick alternative to this is to build javascript data structures with your application & use JS in combination with DHTML to generate the pages clientside. (disclaimer: i may have been on crack when i wrote this ;-) Anyway, if you combine the scripting idea with something that's been kicking around in my head for the past year - namely that Perl needs a good `Application Server' in order to compete in the high end of the market - then you've got some more `ground breaking technology' (read: SuperCoolWheel v3.0! ;) for the Marketeers to yabber on about, and potentially a useful set of tools for us developers. Of course, as you point out above, who in their right mind would pay for a new wheel when you could be making your company money instead? Even though there's a potentially *huge* market for this, that's still one problem I can't solve. regards, -- Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44 (0) 207 614 8600 Unix Developer red | hot | chilli f: +44 (0) 207 614 8601
Re: Templating Solutions
David Cantrell wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:24:13PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote: > > > > I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no! > > > > (ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy > > > > HTML and thy Perl in the same file). > > > It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application. > > > So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with > > > the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT. Why are > > > those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for > > > other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't? > > > > Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!! > > What am I doing wrong? ;-) > > Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application > from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not > do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save > yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel. That sounds like a contradictory statement there - of course the line will never be 100% clear & cut-out... And as for inventing new wheels - well we're all coders & scientists & engineers here... That's what we do! > You can still stick your business logic elsewhere and have that called > by the perl embedded in the templates. I see where you're coming from, but think about how this will be abused - coders will get lazy and eventually just embed all the business logic in the templates. Then your life will be a living hell. As a worst case scenario you'll end up with (eek!) an inverted Bugzilla! ;-) With the vast array of options we've got on Perl tools for templating & embedding & serving (and other -ings), it seems to me the trend is to create a whole bunch of new wheels. Then everybody talks about them & the better wheel(s) is pointed out, and then maybe then the wheels are improved to become uber-wheels while in the background the cycle repeats itself... I'd argue that embedding code in your templates is on the way out, and the sooner it goes the better. I think it was a necessary step away from embedding templates in your code (eg. cgi scripts), but now it's time to recognize the aforementioned split & revise our models & tools accordingly (and create new ones if necessary). But then again, this has prolly all been said before. Anyways, that's my 2c. -- Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44 (0) 207 614 8600 Unix Developer red | hot | chilli f: +44 (0) 207 614 8601
Re: Introduction to XP
Greg McCarroll wrote: > > * Cross David - dcross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > From: Cross David - dcross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:47 PM > > > > > Interesting stuff... > > > > > > <http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/05/04/xp_intro.html> > > > > Should point out, that's Extreme Programming, _not_ Windows XP :) > > > > which i believe has been renamed to 2002 > > ( according to some dodgy marketting pals who can't be trusted ) Yikes! I don't know anything about these `dodgy marketting pals' ... is there a FAQ somewhere? -- Steve Purkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44 (0) 207 614 8600 Unix Developer red | hot | chilli f: +44 (0) 207 614 8601
Re: Do what I mean!
Matthew Robinson wrote: > > With respect to Quantum::Superpositions and in the spirit of 'Do what I > mean' I think we should be able to write any script and place the following > pragma in the header. > > use constant time; > > Obviously, the constant module would have to be overloaded to allow this > along with a few tweaks to the core. A *few* tweaks to the core? Come on now, you'd have to make the core grok multiple dimensions! (... and that would be about as easy as building an infinite improbrability drive...) But I suppose you might argue that the core already _spans_ multiple dimensions (everything does, until you look at it), so it wouldn't relly need to understand this to make use of it. So maybe it would just be a matter of trying (eg: observing) it and seeing if it works? Well, I did, and I got this error: % perl -e 'use constant time;' Can't define "983277222" as constant (name contains invalid characters or is empty) at -e line 1 BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at -e line 1. I concluded that while it must work in some universe, it isn't ours. regards, -- Steve Purkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unix Developer www.redhotchilli.com
Re: NY invasion, was Re: Conway Hall
Mike Jarvis wrote: > > David H. Adler wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:32:08PM -0500, Mike Jarvis wrote: > > > > > > When looking at cost, remember what hotel rates in NYC are like > > (almost as > > > bad as London). You can easily pay US$250/night for a room > > that you would > > > swear is in a crack house. > > > > But the crack is *great*! > > Rooms actually in a crack house will be significantly more expensive. Depends - sometimes they don't charge you at all! (if you're selling alot of crack, say) It's the whorehouses that are always expensive. -- Steve Purkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unix Developer www.redhotchilli.com
Re: London.pm List Weekly Summary 2001-02-05
Greg McCarroll wrote: > > * Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Leon Brocard wrote: > > > On Thursday, a London.pm Heretic Meeting happened in a lovely > > > pub with a nice warm fire by the Thames. For the uninitiated, > > > a Heretic Meeting happens when the first thursday of the month > > > is the 1st. Heretic meetings thus happen on the 7th, and are > > ^^^ > > 8th. (For the summary in four weeks' time :-) > > > > london.pm meetings happen on the day after the first wednesday > of the month - some misinformed people may have meetings on the > 1st of the month occasionally, but what can i say? they are just > crazy! Absolutely! I mean, does anyone actually *believe* that life is as simple as "The first Wednesday of every month" ?!? C'mon - there's *always* a catch. -- Steve Purkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Unix Developer www.redhotchilli.com
Re: Forwarded : RE: [Tottenham] Preview la-di-da-da
Greg McCarroll wrote: > > * Steve Purkis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Come on you spurs... ;-) > > its the big one soon steven, Spurs vs. the Arse I'll be standing... speaking of, you would not believe the horror the spurs bear sitting on my computer went through! He was taken hostage by a malicious workmate (who shall remain nameless - I don't want to be an accessory to murder!) who proceeded to tie him up with several orange plastic ties before stuffing him headfirst into a desktop pencil holder that was placed strategically on my desk. I returned in time to save him before he suffocated! But fear not, proud Spurs fans, for revenge was exacted that very night when I took this particular individual out to Soho and, together with my stout Canadian flatmate, caused him to consume so much alcohol that he arrived 6 hours late for work the next day. Ha! PS: unsubscribe successful, feel like I've just cut off my leg :-( -- Steve Purkis Technical Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ebookers.com
Re: CiP: firstof.pm
Cool idea...
Having said that: Ye Gods, you're mad!
-steve
Mark Fowler wrote:
>
> Check the bugs section of (the yet unpublished) firstof.pm:
>
> CALLING TYPE BUG
>Rather than doing
>
>use \"Fred", Foo, Wibble;
>
>I'd like to do
>
>use Fred Foo, Wibble;
>
>Akin to what print does. But currently prototypes
>(and import) won't allow me to express this.
>
> And the section of 'perldoc -f use'
>
> use Module VERSION LIST
>
>
>
> If the VERSION argument is present between Module and LIST, then the
> use will call the VERSION method in class Module with the given
> version as an argument. The default VERSION method, inherited from
> the UNIVERSAL class, croaks if the given version is larger than the
> value of the variable $Module::VERSION.
>
> My question is, how evil would it be to override VERSION to do something
> that it was never, ever, designed for...
>
> Later
>
> Mark.
>
> P.S.
>
> http://2shortplanks.com/firstof/firstof.pm
> http://2shortplanks.com/firstof/firstof.html
>
> --
> print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_>6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
>Name => 'Mark Fowler',Title => 'Technology Developer' ,
>Firm => 'Profero Ltd',Web => 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
>Email => '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone => '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
--
Steve Purkis Technical Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ebookers.com
Re: The List
Jonathan Stowe wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Steve Purkis wrote: > > > I have to unsubscribe (I'm leaving ebookers on Friday), but majordomo > > doesn't know about "london.pm": > > > > >>>> unsubscribe london.pm > > unsubscribe: unknown list 'london.pm'. > > Help for [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > > Right, > > Having changed the named has fixed this. > > unsubscribe london-pm > > will work fine now. Kewl - tks. Gonna miss this list for a few weeks, but I *know* my server would crash if I signed up on my home account ;-). ta, -- Steve Purkis Technical Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ebookers.com
Re: Forwarded : RE: [Tottenham] Preview la-di-da-da
Come on you spurs... ;-) Greg McCarroll wrote: > > look what started without my involvement on the spurs mailing list ... > > - Forwarded message > > To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: [Tottenham] Preview la-di-da-da > Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:31:22 -0800 > > > > WHAT?!! God dead?! It can't be true. And I just thought > > he'd gone to Villa! > > > This list was beginning to get boring before SMG was > > brought up... Now, > > > could she be a Spurs supporter? I think so. I can imagine her in a > > > rain-soaked Holsten shirt... Ooh sorry, getting carried away there! > > > > > > > hehehe, the only thing I know about SMG is that she's a New > > York Knicks and Rangers fan and likes pasta and hot sex with > > Spurs' fans.. > > Yippee! I'm a Spurs fan and would just LOVE to have pasta with SMG! Swoon! > > ___ > T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 > Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics > > - End forwarded message - > -- > Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net -- Steve Purkis Technical Architect [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ebookers.com
