Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

Ahh, I was not aware of that, in gmail I just use "Reply to All", but I do
understand some of you dislike Gmail ;-)

(No Flaming me, I'm just getting the education version set up !!! - lol)

Regards,

Phill.

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Steve  wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:13:33 +0100, Goh Lip  wrote:
>
>
>>
>> ps: It has been mentioned before, but may I suggest the administrator of
>> this mailing list add a mechanism so that replies of messages will
>> automatically send to 'lubuntu-desk...@launchpad.net' rather than to the
>> author? Something along the line of 'reply-to'?   Thanks.
>>
>>
>>  I agree, as not all mail clients have a 'reply-to-list' option, and even
> those that do don’t always spot the list address.
>
>
> --
> Steve (Yorvyk)
> http://lubuntu.net
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Steve]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:13:33 +0100, Goh Lip  wrote:




ps: It has been mentioned before, but may I suggest the administrator of  
this mailing list add a mechanism so that replies of messages will  
automatically send to 'lubuntu-desk...@launchpad.net' rather than to the  
author? Something along the line of 'reply-to'?   Thanks.



I agree, as not all mail clients have a 'reply-to-list' option, and even  
those that do don’t always spot the list address.



--
Steve (Yorvyk)
http://lubuntu.net

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/29/2010 08:58 PM, Daniel Hallett wrote:

there should be an easier way to update lubuntu than synaptic.  But if
not there should be an option for auto notify.



Yes, that would be nice. But for me, even for my kubuntu, where it is 
available, I use

sudo aptitude update
sudo aptitude safe-upgrade

In Lubuntu, that will be using leafpad.

This applies for updates in the same version, say in Lucid and upgrade 
in only Lucid. For upgrades to newer versions, and I am quite new to 
Lubuntu, I'll recommend downloading the new iso and do a fresh install, 
though in Kubuntu I'll upgrade using the alternate cd. If others here 
who have more experience in Lubuntu have a different opinion, or I am 
wrong, please add your comments to help Daniel (and me).



Note that for new users, I would not recommend using 'full-upgrade' or 
'dist-upgrade'. for the 2nd line above.


Regards - Goh Lip

ps: It has been mentioned before, but may I suggest the administrator of 
this mailing list add a mechanism so that replies of messages will 
automatically send to 'lubuntu-desk...@launchpad.net' rather than to the 
author? Something along the line of 'reply-to'?   Thanks.



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/28/2010 05:23 PM, Richard Austin wrote:

Yorvyk - I stand corrected on Grub 2 being in Alpha - I hadn't realised it came 
out of beta.
Goh - I wasn't criticising Grub 2 since I have had no problems with it myself. I have 
heard others have and particularly with external drives as you mentioned. Since an awful 
lot of people are going to "give Linux a try" on an external drive it is not 
too good that it will most likely fail.



Yes, I know that, Richard. Thought I add more reading material for you.
And yes, I was very impressed with grub2. The objections to it when it 
was first introduced was high, but I understand the reactions as the 
documentation for it was almost non-existent. And menu.lst is far far 
easier to modify and still is.




I do remember LILO - never did get it to work reliably myself. My first try at 
Linux wasn't successful because of it as I recall and I had to use Windows at 
the time because of a course I was taking. As a result I didn't properly adopt 
Linux until about 3 years ago. Now you wont get me away from it - except at 
work where I have no choice cos everything is flaming Microsoft! When I get my 
own company running it will all be Linux and no Windows in sight thankyou!

Rich


The reason I mentioned LILO is that it is the major reason at that time 
why people trying out linux just gave up. I too almost invariably end up 
with a blinking cursor on a dark screen for any new installation.
With grub-legacy, it is much better but with systems with more than 1 
hard disk, it's usually a guessing game when modifying the menu.lst to 
try to boot. That's why people need to modify it continually. And when 
booting to external disk, it is always (hd0,1) and of course, that is in 
grub-speak, the first partition of the hard disk, never the external, 
and will not boot unless the menu.lst gets modified again.




Just glad to talk to someone who understands.

Regards and take care - Goh Lip

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Richard Austin]

Yorvyk - I stand corrected on Grub 2 being in Alpha - I hadn't realised it came 
out of beta.
Goh - I wasn't criticising Grub 2 since I have had no problems with it myself. 
I have heard others have and particularly with external drives as you 
mentioned. Since an awful lot of people are going to "give Linux a try" on an 
external drive it is not too good that it will most likely fail.

I do remember LILO - never did get it to work reliably myself. My first try at 
Linux wasn't successful because of it as I recall and I had to use Windows at 
the time because of a course I was taking. As a result I didn't properly adopt 
Linux until about 3 years ago. Now you wont get me away from it - except at 
work where I have no choice cos everything is flaming Microsoft! When I get my 
own company running it will all be Linux and no Windows in sight thankyou!

Rich

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:25:12 +0800
Goh Lip  wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 08:42:50 +0100
> Richard Austin  wrote:
> 
> > As Goh Lip said in one of his posts on this subject: Alpha versions
> > are not for newbies. Exactly why Canonical are shipping Grub 2 when
> > they know it isn't a full release I don't personally know. They have
> > their reasons i guess. I haven't had any issues myself with Grub but
> > then I'm not a newbie. I would be hesitant, however, to point a
> > newbie at a system where there is a chance it will break. They sure
> > as hell wont come back to *nix if it does.
> > I think that since there are issues with Grub it would be a good idea
> > to move away from it and use something which doesn't have issues.
> > Moaning at the LUbuntu team does no-one any good, and it really
> > annoys me when people complain about non-production versions of
> > software "breaking" - they haven't broken they have bugs which is why
> > they're in Alpha / Beta releases! If you can't fix it you shouldn't
> > have been using it - simple huh?
> > 
> > Rich
> 
> Richard, some of the reasoning to use grub2 can be found at 
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
> 
> Personally, and on top of these reasons, my take on it is
> o grub-legacy has not been maintained for a long time  (5 years?) 
>note others try to fill the void by super grub, etc.
> o the rescue mode to help boot  when parameters are wrong
> o the setting to (grub) boot by uuid instead of (hd0,x) and /dev/sdax
>where it will always be wrong with multiple disks
> o When booting from external disk, the partition will always be (hd0,1)
>regardless of actual allocation and grub-legacy will fail
> o modular construct where new innovations/additions need not require
>the whole grub system be rebuilt
> o ability to boot iso direct by looping, (useful to test alpha's
>without installing to hard disk) and other utility disks.
> o ability to handle raid and lvm, despite initial problems,
>(grub-legacy and definitely lilo could not.)
> 
> Richard, even at the introduction of grub2, it is far far superior to
> grub-legacy, and the only fault is the lack of documentation to assist
> users. Also many people are already familiar with grub-legacy and the
> ease to modify menu.lst makes using grub2 a harder task. It is always
> easier to learn a new task than to unlearn an old one.
> 
> Since you mentioned you are not a newbie, can you remember using
> LILO?   ;)  [roaring laughter]  LOL
> 
> Take care. Regards - Goh Lip
> -- 
> I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas.
> I'm frightened of the old ones.
> 
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-- 
Richard Austin 


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 08:42:50 +0100
Richard Austin  wrote:

> As Goh Lip said in one of his posts on this subject: Alpha versions
> are not for newbies. Exactly why Canonical are shipping Grub 2 when
> they know it isn't a full release I don't personally know. They have
> their reasons i guess. I haven't had any issues myself with Grub but
> then I'm not a newbie. I would be hesitant, however, to point a
> newbie at a system where there is a chance it will break. They sure
> as hell wont come back to *nix if it does.
> I think that since there are issues with Grub it would be a good idea
> to move away from it and use something which doesn't have issues.
> Moaning at the LUbuntu team does no-one any good, and it really
> annoys me when people complain about non-production versions of
> software "breaking" - they haven't broken they have bugs which is why
> they're in Alpha / Beta releases! If you can't fix it you shouldn't
> have been using it - simple huh?
> 
> Rich

Richard, some of the reasoning to use grub2 can be found at 
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2

Personally, and on top of these reasons, my take on it is
o grub-legacy has not been maintained for a long time  (5 years?) 
   note others try to fill the void by super grub, etc.
o the rescue mode to help boot  when parameters are wrong
o the setting to (grub) boot by uuid instead of (hd0,x) and /dev/sdax
   where it will always be wrong with multiple disks
o When booting from external disk, the partition will always be (hd0,1)
   regardless of actual allocation and grub-legacy will fail
o modular construct where new innovations/additions need not require
   the whole grub system be rebuilt
o ability to boot iso direct by looping, (useful to test alpha's
   without installing to hard disk) and other utility disks.
o ability to handle raid and lvm, despite initial problems,
   (grub-legacy and definitely lilo could not.)

Richard, even at the introduction of grub2, it is far far superior to
grub-legacy, and the only fault is the lack of documentation to assist
users. Also many people are already familiar with grub-legacy and the
ease to modify menu.lst makes using grub2 a harder task. It is always
easier to learn a new task than to unlearn an old one.

Since you mentioned you are not a newbie, can you remember using
LILO?   ;)  [roaring laughter]  LOL

Take care. Regards - Goh Lip
-- 
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas.
I'm frightened of the old ones.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Yorvyk]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 08:42:50 +0100
Richard Austin  wrote:

> As Goh Lip said in one of his posts on this subject: Alpha versions are 
> not for newbies. Exactly why Canonical are shipping Grub 2 when they 
> know it isn't a full release I don't personally know.
>
Grub2 came out of beta in October 2009.

-- 
Steve Cook (Yorvyk)

http://lubuntu.net 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Richard Austin]

As Goh Lip said in one of his posts on this subject: Alpha versions are 
not for newbies. Exactly why Canonical are shipping Grub 2 when they 
know it isn't a full release I don't personally know. They have their 
reasons i guess. I haven't had any issues myself with Grub but then I'm 
not a newbie. I would be hesitant, however, to point a newbie at a 
system where there is a chance it will break. They sure as hell wont 
come back to *nix if it does.
I think that since there are issues with Grub it would be a good idea to 
move away from it and use something which doesn't have issues.  Moaning 
at the LUbuntu team does no-one any good, and it really annoys me when 
people complain about non-production versions of software "breaking" - 
they haven't broken they have bugs which is why they're in Alpha / Beta 
releases! If you can't fix it you shouldn't have been using it - simple huh?


Rich

On 27/06/10 06:33, Phillip Whiteside wrote:
You may want to have a read of my last experience with grub2, from 
moving up from grub-legacy...


http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1331465

it took drs305 to correct that 'simple' problem  (He altered the wiki 
page after it), it has gotten worse. Do not mis-read, the problem it 
has come back to bite *buntu.


This is playing into the hands of certain corporate companies.*buntu 
either works, or it does not. There is no 'gray/ grey' area about 
something something so critical to a computer working. Users are not 
interested in "ahh, but you can do this to make it work", it either 
works, or it does not.


Phill.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Phillip Whiteside > wrote:


Hi Goh,

Grub is in a mess, and has been for a while. When it works, it
works well, when it fails, it fails completely. This has bubbled
along from 9.10 to 10.04 and is becoming a larger issue for 10.10

As per grub / burg and the really big mess that has been made,
along with people who help out on the forum area expressing their
frustrations, can I suggest you have a read of
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 I have not seen
the guys and galz on the testing area having such a heated
discussion, it is quite evident that there is a *major* problem
that needs addressing.

I have only read up on that thread today, Kansassnoob is one who I
rely on for grub issues, if he is exclaiming his in-ability to
support it, then I suggest you read up all you can as he is one of
those I rely on when the tutorials do not work.

I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more
fundamental issue of where he puts his grub. But I don't like
his tone of calling the developers stupid when he himself is
stupid. And if he continues in this manner, I would be
reluctant to help him further.


So, you best have read on there, you will see that they have been
called far worse by people who actually have to deal with the fall
out.

There are always two sides to a coin, it pays to take the time to
see why someone is annoyed, in this case they have every reason to
be so. But it is not a lubuntu fault, it is a grub fault which
means all ubuntu shares it, and from the dev himself, so does debian.

Regards,

Phill.


On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Goh Lip mailto:g@gmx.com>> wrote:

On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:

Dear all,

forwarded a bug report below.

Best,

Mario



Hi!
I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
Environment:
1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD
(and can be
mounted as sdb device).
2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant,
install to SDHD
Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all
device space
without swap.
Result of Install Lubuntu:
1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has
the MBR on FIRST
HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation
Lubintu, not use
it completely!
2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without
having as
plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped
without this
External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display
Diagnostic
Message on this situation.
Resume:
It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who
wrote a code for
use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but
loading Grub
from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as
work (loadable)
Device SEC

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:20:35 +0300
"Abnormal Terminate(R)"  wrote:

> Thanks, I to do it at described night :)
> Sincerely,
> A.T.

> >
> > Boot up the desktop linux distro with the external drive plugged in.
> > At the terminal of that linux distro, type the following...
> > sudo grub-install /dev/sda
> >
> > Done.

Welcome. Regards - Goh Lip

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/28/2010 04:31 AM, Abnormal Terminate(R) wrote:

Hi for all !




Once again, I'm sorry for possibly overly emotional tone of my remarks!
Sincerely,


AT, I am also not a native english speaker, but that does not absolve us 
of the need for correct usage of terminology, and it cannot justify our 
use of profanities or improper manners, but all the same, glad to see 
your post.


Now lets get down to cleaning up the mess, if it is still an issue that 
you need the external drive for booting up your desktop system. If that 
is no longer the issue, you can ignore the rest of this post.


Some summary/assumptions...
o Lubuntu is at external drive and the grub is set to desktop hard drive 
mbr.
o You have at least one linux distro using grub2 boot at the the desktop 
system.


Boot up the desktop linux distro with the external drive plugged in.
At the terminal of that linux distro, type the following...
sudo grub-install /dev/sda

Done.


You will then be able to boot up your desktop system without the 
external drive attached. You will also be able to see an option to boot 
the Lubuntu OS at the desktop grub itself, and it can boot Lubuntu (if 
the external drive is attached).


Hope this clears up the issue, and if you have other issues or if the 
assumptions are not correct, please revert.


Regards - Goh Lip




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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Abnormal Terminate(R)]

Hi for all !
Excuse me, I was not able a time to answer before: yesterday and today
I did not use email... : (
I have reading the entire thread, see the disparity of views, even far
from a complete understanding of the situation that I described in the
topic (my letter, who that triggered this discussion).
I must confess that I wrote this topic in the middle of night -- after
a couple of hours of fucking with my PC; and it's main point,
eliminating the effects of my Install the Lubuntu 10.04 Release.
Hence, because of fatigue and irritation, my definition or formulating
not clearly (addition issue, my English is not my native language).
But it's possible harshness remarks about just stupidity of my
situation. ("Nothing Personally" (c)...)
But I'm sure if every one of you in the middle of the night came in
the same situation, I am "ready to give teeth" :) that you would use
no less harsh vocabulary... ;)
Now, I shall little more speak on the merits.
As first, the main problem is not that, I quote:
"If he wants to permanently attach this external to his system and let
the system select the option to boot, he can boot up the computer OS,
assuming it is a Linus distro, and do a "sudo grub-install /dev/sda"
on it. Then it will detect the Lubuntu OS on the external and make it
one of the option to boot"
The main problem, as basic, in the fact that OS Installer decided for
me automatically record MBR to a defaults choosed device! Write it as
default, it was choosed sda device. Thus is cause to violating for
normally booting of my Boot Manager, which I has remained on the
primary (such is sda) device, uses for booting many OSs on my PC.
When the fact, at the time, my choosing disk to Install Lubuntu, --
and I just chose as a target to install my new OS just sdb device, --
this is not a cause (say it mildly) to recording MBR to primary
device; and this Installer' behavior is strongly surprised for me
(IMHO, and for other users too).
Especially in combination with the completely correct placement of the
Grub -- into sdb device and on the sdb1 partition. (Now, this is just
automatic choising -- it's automatically on Lubuntu 10.04, opposed to
it from Lucid Ubuntu 10.04, which if remember I asked to choose
accommodation boot -- but this choosing for Grub' placement is quite
reasonable and it's predictable for any users.)
Therefore, a statement in this discussion:
"I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue
of where he puts his grub..."
- It is correct not reflection of the understanding 'global' situation
about OS' booting, of this community.
For me, the user never been given a choice: haven't choice of where to
write Grub; nor, especially, the possibility of manual selection
strategy, critical to the successful resolution of a potentially
dangerous and destructive operation - the location (device) to record
MBR...
So, second and most important, IMHO.
If the OS' Installer asks user to manually select a location for
recording MBR or even refuse to record it, then this case did not
there would be described by this "strange" situation (now I'm trying
to soften my expression).
In practice, this might look like this:
(*) Use /dev/sda (default)
( ) Use /dev/sdb
... / / Depend of lenght the list for presents devices...
( ) Not recording the MBR.
For my specific needs, I would choose the last point.
And I remember that several months ago under Xbuntu 10.04 Installer
was be present my this 'true way', and because it I can allowed it not
overwrite my MBR, when I has Installation on my main device. When I
use this OSs on quite complex combination of hard drives on my PC...
Third and last. In the last one year or two, we have rather tendency
to uses "automation" of various operations, including installing and
configuring the OS. This would be very good way, but if it permit
known causes:
(a) always for any users would be choose to left it and uses manually
intervene this process (have an obvious way to do it);
(b) when chooses automatic settings of the algorithm does not rely
just to the "typical" situation, and only typical as standard
"environment" of PCs, but would have investigated the operating PC'
environment to automatically adjust it, and while the algorithm would
continue to exercise it only when collected environmental data on the
PC will only unequivocally accept just correct solutions. For any
other cases, the user should be offered opportunity to make own
choices just manually. But the automatically collected information
would provide extremely to useful for this user's choices!
(By the way, does not wanting to my brag, I'm wrote it unequivocally:
I had programmer and I active PC user with experience almost 20 years.
And I've seen a lot of rich practice. And in my professional work
stick to just those rules that are outlined above. However, I have
been never still just Linux programming experience, haven't common
software developing for Linux, and simply therefore do not have
capabilities --

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/27/2010 09:30 PM, Andrew Woodhead wrote:

I'd just like to add one thing that EVERYBODY is forgettin

GRUB IS NOT THE *ONLY* BOOTLOADER

Try LILO, It is a perfectly fine bootloader, or am I just thinking
outside the box here and being too radical. Just because Grub is default
in Ubuntu doesn't mean it is the best solution. You could also try BURG

-Andy



Good luck?

Goh Lip

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/27/2010 11:04 PM, Quynh Vu Do wrote:

Hi,

2010/6/27 Goh Lip mailto:g@gmx.com>>

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:57:05 +0700

Quynh, first, please read my post on the Lubuntu mailing list.

http://www.mail-archive.com/lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net/msg01347.html


Quynh, if there is any specific thing you want to bring up after
reading my post, please feel free to address it. As of this message, I
do not see any thing specific to address.


The only thing I could add is when I install to an USB stick is to
choose ext2 af file systems. I also don't use swap partitions to
economize disk space on the USB device (usually 4-8 GB).



Yes, I too don't add a swap partition to the usb drive, and generally 
speaking, it's not required for ram of 1 GB and above, except for 
hybernate and sleep. But, I use ext4 in the usb drive for Lubuntu, 
though. A good thing to do for ext4 at external drive is to add 
'noatime' at the fstab for /.




I must add that I'm using Ubuntu Netbook Edition 10.04 (Acer Aspire One
with one 8 GB SSD, ext2 file system) and Ubuntu Desktop (Acer laptops +
clone desktops, ext3 file systems).




That's quite some system you have.

Regards and take care - Goh Lip



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Quynh Vu Do]

Hi,

2010/6/27 Goh Lip 

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:57:05 +0700
>
> Quynh, first, please read my post on the Lubuntu mailing list.
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net/msg01347.html
>
>
> Quynh, if there is any specific thing you want to bring up after
> reading my post, please feel free to address it. As of this message, I
> do not see any thing specific to address.
>
>
The only thing I could add is when I install to an USB stick is to choose
ext2 af file systems. I also don't use swap partitions to economize disk
space on the USB device (usually 4-8 GB).

I must add that I'm using Ubuntu Netbook Edition 10.04 (Acer Aspire One with
one 8 GB SSD, ext2 file system) and Ubuntu Desktop (Acer laptops + clone
desktops, ext3 file systems).

Regards


-- 
Vu Do Quynh (M.)
Hanoi, Vietnam
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Andrew Woodhead]

I'd just like to add one thing that EVERYBODY is forgettin

GRUB IS NOT THE *ONLY* BOOTLOADER

Try LILO, It is a perfectly fine bootloader, or am I just thinking
outside the box here and being too radical. Just because Grub is default
in Ubuntu doesn't mean it is the best solution. You could also try BURG

-Andy



On Sun, 2010-06-27 at 08:33 +0100, Phillip Whiteside wrote:
> hi Goh,
> 
> 
> yes, there is, it is not a dell issue, as is clearly explained, also
> the work around for a bug that one of the
> devs https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/496435/comments/6  
> says is not fully tested, the consensus of those who are dealing with 
> problems over at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 is still to 
> use still to use  "dpkg-reconfigure" and not apt-get etc.
> 
> 
> I'm awaiting the guy who writes up a lot of documentation that we mere
> mortals use to refer to in order to have a chat with him, I have a
> strong sense that he will also shrug his shoulders and say that the
> grub team have messed up (again) and to continue to use the
> dpkg-reconfigure option. I recall that grub2 came out and totally
> broke RAID support. They have been playing catch up ever since. Given
> the chance, I'd use burg as it is more pro-active and re-active to
> problems.
> 
> 
> I really do not know why we are arguing over this? Grub 2 can cause
> major problems when there is more than one hard disk involved - that
> is beyond dispute. In 9.10 it cannot support RAID, with 10.04 we got a
> newer version that gave some RAID support, but they would not back
> port it, when 10.04 came out it had a big fall out with Win7. - that
> is still a 'work around'. 
> 
> 
> Such a basic part of *nix should not need 'work-arounds', n00bs will
> not that there is one - It must be sorted out.
> 
> 
> Should not we be trying to help the OP, it is quite evident there is a
> problem and people get annoyed over having their computer in a non
> booting mode? Regardless of any sleek looking graphics, let us not
> fall into the trap that Microsoft did with Service Pack 2 for XP. When
> we do tempt people over to *nix, if their first introduction to it is
> a broken system they will not only never come back, they will tell
> everyone that *nix breaks computers. That is not acceptable, we are in
> the hands of the Grub people - so people should complain there and we
> should ensure that people asking why lubuntu does not work in such
> situations are clearly told that it is not a fault of lubuntu.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Phill.
> 
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Goh Lip  wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:12:35 +0100
> Phillip Whiteside  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Goh,
> >
> > I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you?
> >
> > Rule #1 You install *buntu it works, if it does not work it
> does not
> > break anything.
> >
> > At present it can totally break things. There is no point
> arguing
> > over it, just go see the forum area for people for whom it
> has broken
> > there is no point saying that it is does not, as there are a
> lot of
> > people saying that it does.
> >
> > The problems with grub2 and Win7 were bad enough under the
> 'older'
> > grub2. You do not seem to have read through that thread
> fully
> >
> > some links to read,
> 
> 
> Phillip, have read your links above. To add, there are some
> problems
> not in your links related to Dell's recovery system, raid, lvm
> and
> others...but not to denigrate your specific issue which is
> the
> failure to install by "install grub-pc" and you have found
> success by "sudo apt-get install grub-pc";  yes, you're right,
> I cannot
> see the point arguing that it should just work with "install
> grub-pc"
> and not just "sudo apt-get install grub-pc". You do not seem
> to have
> read how to use 'sudo' and 'apt-get' rather than understanding
> how to
> install grub.
> 
> Are there any more specific issues with grub you like to bring
> up
> rather than saying I haven't read fully?
> 
> 
> Goh Lip
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/27/2010 04:39 PM, Goh Lip wrote:

On 06/27/2010 03:33 PM, Phillip Whiteside wrote:

hi Goh,

yes, there is, it is *not* a dell issue, as is clearly explained, also
the work around for a bug that one of the devs


A small point not included in my previous post, it is resolved by 
removing Dell DataSafe , refer 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/482757


But then again, I wonder why are we talking about this? Is it affecting 
you? Are you bringing up all these issues to justify why grub is 
unusable to the majority of users? That you want to to remove it? Use 
burg? LILO, anyone?


Goh Lip


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/27/2010 03:33 PM, Phillip Whiteside wrote:

hi Goh,

yes, there is, it is *not* a dell issue, as is clearly explained, also
the work around for a bug that one of the devs
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/496435/comments/6  says
is not fully tested, the consensus of those who are dealing with
problems over at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 is
still to use still to use "dpkg-reconfigure" and not apt-get etc.


First, alpha versions are not for Newbies, these are for people who are 
helping to test and report bugs. Problems with alpha's are to be 
expected. People are always reminded non-final releases are not meant 
for production and tend to break. So if someone complains his alpha 
version is buggy and the developers are not doing their job, you know 
where they should be told to go.





I'm awaiting the guy who writes up a lot of documentation that we mere
mortals use to refer to in order to have a chat with him, I have a
strong sense that he will also shrug his shoulders and say that the grub
team have messed up (again) and to continue to use the dpkg-reconfigure
option. I recall that grub2 came out and totally broke RAID support.
They have been playing catch up ever since. Given the chance, I'd use
burg as it is more pro-active and re-active to problems.





I really do not know why we are arguing over this? Grub 2 can cause
major problems when there is more than one hard disk involved - that is
beyond dispute. In 9.10 it cannot support RAID, with 10.04 we got a
newer version that gave some RAID support, but they would not back port
it, when 10.04 came out it had a big fall out with Win7. - that is still
a 'work around'.


Raid/LVM issues are settled as of...
http://grub.enbug.org/LVMandRAID
and can't you do a simple "grub-install --root-directory=." (with 
sudo of course) instead as 'backport'?




Such a basic part of *nix should not need 'work-arounds', n00bs will not
that there is one - It must be sorted out.

Should not we be trying to help the OP, it is quite evident there is a
problem and people get annoyed over having their computer in a non
booting mode? Regardless of any sleek looking graphics, let us not fall
into the trap that Microsoft did with Service Pack 2 for XP. When we do
tempt people over to *nix, if their first introduction to it is a broken
system they will not only never come back, they will tell everyone that
*nix breaks computers. That is not acceptable, we are in the hands of
the Grub people - so people should complain there and we should ensure
that people asking why lubuntu does not work in such situations are
clearly told that it is not a fault of lubuntu.


Yes, we should always try to help anyone who needs help. Even with 
people on maverick alpha #one#. (That's where it's at, my goodness). But 
to have a problem and to lash out is not acceptable, even with final 
released versions.



Phillip, if you are the 'philinux' at 
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153  you should be in a 
position to understand this more than others. I am surprised that this 
needs even be mentioned.

If you are not, then I reiterate some basic points

o Alpha versions are not meant for production, and tend to break. It is 
*not* recommended for 'normal' use but experienced users are welcome to 
*test* and report any bugs. Bear in mind it may render the whole system 
unusable and a complete reinstall may be necessary.


o A basic code of conduct on *ubuntu's mailing list can be found at
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
I suggest a reread and adherence to it.

o This mailing list is to ask for help and to provide it. Not to rant, 
troll or ...


Phillip, or Quynh, again, is there any specific grub issue affecting you 
that you want addressed? I may not have all the answers and perhaps a 
bug report may indeed needed be filed, but what is it that needs to be 
brought up?


Goh Lip






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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

hi Goh,

yes, there is, it is *not* a dell issue, as is clearly explained, also the
work around for a bug that one of the devs
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/496435/comments/6  says
is not fully tested, the consensus of those who are dealing with problems
over at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 is still to use
still to use  "dpkg-reconfigure" and not apt-get etc.

I'm awaiting the guy who writes up a lot of documentation that we mere
mortals use to refer to in order to have a chat with him, I have a strong
sense that he will also shrug his shoulders and say that the grub team have
messed up (again) and to continue to use the dpkg-reconfigure option. I
recall that grub2 came out and totally broke RAID support. They have been
playing catch up ever since. Given the chance, I'd use burg as it is more
pro-active and re-active to problems.

I really do not know why we are arguing over this? Grub 2 can cause major
problems when there is more than one hard disk involved - that is beyond
dispute. In 9.10 it cannot support RAID, with 10.04 we got a newer version
that gave some RAID support, but they would not back port it, when 10.04
came out it had a big fall out with Win7. - that is still a 'work around'.

Such a basic part of *nix should not need 'work-arounds', n00bs will not
that there is one - It must be sorted out.

Should not we be trying to help the OP, it is quite evident there is a
problem and people get annoyed over having their computer in a non booting
mode? Regardless of any sleek looking graphics, let us not fall into the
trap that Microsoft did with Service Pack 2 for XP. When we do tempt people
over to *nix, if their first introduction to it is a broken system they will
not only never come back, they will tell everyone that *nix breaks
computers. That is not acceptable, we are in the hands of the Grub people -
so people should complain there and we should ensure that people asking why
lubuntu does not work in such situations are clearly told that it is not a
fault of lubuntu.

Regards,

Phill.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:27 AM, Goh Lip  wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:12:35 +0100
> Phillip Whiteside  wrote:
>
> > Goh,
> >
> > I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you?
> >
> > Rule #1 You install *buntu it works, if it does not work it does not
> > break anything.
> >
> > At present it can totally break things. There is no point arguing
> > over it, just go see the forum area for people for whom it has broken
> > there is no point saying that it is does not, as there are a lot of
> > people saying that it does.
> >
> > The problems with grub2 and Win7 were bad enough under the 'older'
> > grub2. You do not seem to have read through that thread fully
> >
> > some links to read,
>
> Phillip, have read your links above. To add, there are some problems
> not in your links related to Dell's recovery system, raid, lvm and
> others...but not to denigrate your specific issue which is the
> failure to install by "install grub-pc" and you have found
> success by "sudo apt-get install grub-pc";  yes, you're right, I cannot
> see the point arguing that it should just work with "install grub-pc"
> and not just "sudo apt-get install grub-pc". You do not seem to have
> read how to use 'sudo' and 'apt-get' rather than understanding how to
> install grub.
>
> Are there any more specific issues with grub you like to bring up
> rather than saying I haven't read fully?
>
> Goh Lip
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:12:35 +0100
Phillip Whiteside  wrote:

> Goh,
> 
> I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you?
> 
> Rule #1 You install *buntu it works, if it does not work it does not
> break anything.
> 
> At present it can totally break things. There is no point arguing
> over it, just go see the forum area for people for whom it has broken
> there is no point saying that it is does not, as there are a lot of
> people saying that it does.
> 
> The problems with grub2 and Win7 were bad enough under the 'older'
> grub2. You do not seem to have read through that thread fully
> 
> some links to read,

Phillip, have read your links above. To add, there are some problems
not in your links related to Dell's recovery system, raid, lvm and
others...but not to denigrate your specific issue which is the
failure to install by "install grub-pc" and you have found
success by "sudo apt-get install grub-pc";  yes, you're right, I cannot
see the point arguing that it should just work with "install grub-pc"
and not just "sudo apt-get install grub-pc". You do not seem to have
read how to use 'sudo' and 'apt-get' rather than understanding how to
install grub.

Are there any more specific issues with grub you like to bring up
rather than saying I haven't read fully?

Goh Lip




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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

You may want to have a read of my last experience with grub2, from moving up
from grub-legacy...

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1331465

it took drs305 to correct
that 'simple' problem  (He altered the wiki page after it), it has gotten
worse. Do not mis-read, the problem it has come back to bite *buntu.

This is playing into the hands of certain corporate companies.*buntu either
works, or it does not. There is no 'gray/ grey' area about something
something so critical to a computer working. Users are not interested in
"ahh, but you can do this to make it work", it either works, or it does not.

Phill.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Phillip Whiteside wrote:

> Hi Goh,
>
> Grub is in a mess, and has been for a while. When it works, it works well,
> when it fails, it fails completely. This has bubbled along from 9.10 to
> 10.04 and is becoming a larger issue for 10.10
>
> As per grub / burg and the really big mess that has been made, along with
> people who help out on the forum area expressing their frustrations, can I
> suggest you have a read of
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 I have not seen the guys
> and galz on the testing area having such a heated discussion, it is quite
> evident that there is a *major* problem that needs addressing.
>
> I have only read up on that thread today, Kansassnoob is one who I rely on
> for grub issues, if he is exclaiming his in-ability to support it, then I
> suggest you read up all you can as he is one of those I rely on when the
> tutorials do not work.
>
> I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue of
>> where he puts his grub. But I don't like his tone of calling the developers
>> stupid when he himself is stupid. And if he continues in this manner, I
>> would be reluctant to help him further.
>
>
> So, you best have read on there, you will see that they have been called
> far worse by people who actually have to deal with the fall out.
>
> There are always two sides to a coin, it pays to take the time to see why
> someone is annoyed, in this case they have every reason to be so. But it is
> not a lubuntu fault, it is a grub fault which means all ubuntu shares it,
> and from the dev himself, so does debian.
>
> Regards,
>
> Phill.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Goh Lip  wrote:
>
>> On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> forwarded a bug report below.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Mario
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  Hi!
>>> I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
>>> Environment:
>>> 1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD (and can be
>>> mounted as sdb device).
>>> 2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant, install to SDHD
>>> Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
>>> 3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all device space
>>> without swap.
>>> Result of Install Lubuntu:
>>> 1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on FIRST
>>> HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation Lubintu, not use
>>> it completely!
>>> 2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having as
>>> plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped without this
>>> External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display Diagnostic
>>> Message on this situation.
>>> Resume:
>>> It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who wrote a code for
>>> use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but loading Grub
>>> from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as work (loadable)
>>> Device SECOND HDD or other device?!
>>> And Setup absolutely have not any position for user's choosing about a
>>> Device, who can be uses as place for the Master Boot Record...
>>> It is absolutely abnormal situation, IMHO.
>>> For example, Ubuntu (or Xbuntu) Installer has an option for choosing a
>>> place for create MBR with choosing place for Grub too.
>>> Thanks for possibility of understanding.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Mario, did not see the OP (abnormal) post on this list. But from what I
>> gather, he has installed the grub to the external disk. Naturally, there is
>> no way the system be able to boot this up.
>>
>> If he wants to permanently attach this external to his system and let the
>> system select the option to boot, he can boot up the computer OS, assuming
>> it is a Linus distro, and do a "sudo grub-install /dev/sda" on it. Then it
>> will detect the Lubuntu OS on the external and make it one of the option to
>> boot.
>>
>> If he doesn't want this to be in that option, or his computer OS is
>> windows, (and that is the impression I get), at start up, select option on
>> boot, either 'esc', F12 or F8 depending on his computer.
>>
>> I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue of
>> where he puts his grub. But I don't like his tone of calling the developers
>> stupid when he himself is stupid. And if he continues i

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

Goh,

I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you?

Rule #1 You install *buntu it works, if it does not work it does not break
anything.

At present it can totally break things. There is no point arguing over it,
just go see the forum area for people for whom it has broken there is no
point saying that it is does not, as there are a lot of people saying that
it does.

The problems with grub2 and Win7 were bad enough under the 'older' grub2.
You do not seem to have read through that thread fully

some links to read,
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/576724

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/2010/06/21#2010-06-21-grub2-boot-problems

and, of course http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=9502020&postcount=16

At which point
did you "detached from "end user reality""

Goh, I really suggest you keep on track with the thread on the maverick
discussion thread, because unless lubuntu ditches grub for burg, (which we
cannot do) we are stuck with what the devs for grub enforce upon us.

Regards,
Phill.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 5:28 AM, Goh Lip  wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:57:05 +0700
> Quynh Vu Do  wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > 2010/6/27 Goh Lip 
> >
> > > On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear all,
> > >>
> > >> forwarded a bug report below.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >>
> > >> Mario
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >> 1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on
> > >> FIRST HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation
> > >> Lubintu, not use it completely!
> > >> 2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having
> > >> as plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped
> > >> without this External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and
> > >> display Diagnostic Message on this situation.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Mario, did not see the OP (abnormal) post on this list. But from
> > > what I gather, he has installed the grub to the external disk.
> > > Naturally, there is no way the system be able to boot this up.
> > >
> > >
> > It's the contray I think.
> >
> > This is a common mistake when you install Ubuntu to a USB device
> > because by default Grub is installed to the first hard disk
> > (/dev/sda). Ont he last screen of the installation process you need
> > to click on the "Advanced" button and select the place where Grub
> > should be installed and -in case of installation to an USB drive, you
> > should choose that USB drive (eg /dev/sdb). In this case you can use
> > that USB device to boot any computer. Failing to do that (i.e. using
> > the default of /dev/sda), you'll need the USB device plugged in the
> > computer for Grub to start (otherwise it will display an error). You
> > can of course re-install Grub on the first hard disk if you want to
> > get rid of the necessity to have the USB device plugged in in order
> > to boot the computer from the (internal) first hard disk.
> >
> > I learned this from several mistakes in the past.
> >
> > I also read somewhere that it's safer to disconnect the internal hard
> > drive before installing to a USB device so that you don't get mixed
> > between hard disks.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --
> > Vu Do Quynh (M.)
> > Hanoi, Vietnam
>
>
> Quynh, first, please read my post on the Lubuntu mailing list.
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net/msg01347.html
>
> I understand what you say and I know it is a very common issue with
> people installing OS on the thumb. I add this is more a problem with
> grub legacy as the (hd0,x) and /dev/sdax will change with every boot -
> the change effected by the bios, not the OS.It is less a problem with
> grub2 as the boot searches for uuid.
>
> However, if the grub is installed at the external drive, and in my
> opinion, is a fatal thing to do, there is every possibility of the
> system not booting up.
>
> Also, the existence of a bug report does not imply there is anything
> intrinsically wrong with it, but could be the result of the
> implementation of the installation, in this case, the setting up of the
> grub of the external disk to the mbr (sda, in our lingo) of the hard
> disk. Again, this must not be done and the fault, if we can call it
> that, of the developers, is to enable it by default. But then, how can
> the system recognize that the grub is from the external and not the
> hard disk and that should be the default if setting grub of a hard disk
> partition? So to call the developers stupid is in my mind, unjustified,
> crass and stupid in itself. Not understanding the way it works is no
> justification for rudeness, and even then, if the developers have
> indeed make a mistake, and they will, it is bad behaviour of any
> culture to be rude.
>
> Quynh, if there is any specific thing you want to bring up after
> reading my post, please feel free to address it. As of this message, I
> do not see any thing specific to addr

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 09:57:05 +0700
Quynh Vu Do  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> 2010/6/27 Goh Lip 
> 
> > On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:
> >
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> forwarded a bug report below.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Mario
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >> 1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on
> >> FIRST HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation
> >> Lubintu, not use it completely!
> >> 2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having
> >> as plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped
> >> without this External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and
> >> display Diagnostic Message on this situation.
> >>
> >
> > Mario, did not see the OP (abnormal) post on this list. But from
> > what I gather, he has installed the grub to the external disk.
> > Naturally, there is no way the system be able to boot this up.
> >
> >
> It's the contray I think.
> 
> This is a common mistake when you install Ubuntu to a USB device
> because by default Grub is installed to the first hard disk
> (/dev/sda). Ont he last screen of the installation process you need
> to click on the "Advanced" button and select the place where Grub
> should be installed and -in case of installation to an USB drive, you
> should choose that USB drive (eg /dev/sdb). In this case you can use
> that USB device to boot any computer. Failing to do that (i.e. using
> the default of /dev/sda), you'll need the USB device plugged in the
> computer for Grub to start (otherwise it will display an error). You
> can of course re-install Grub on the first hard disk if you want to
> get rid of the necessity to have the USB device plugged in in order
> to boot the computer from the (internal) first hard disk.
> 
> I learned this from several mistakes in the past.
> 
> I also read somewhere that it's safer to disconnect the internal hard
> drive before installing to a USB device so that you don't get mixed
> between hard disks.
> 
> Regards
> 
> -- 
> Vu Do Quynh (M.)
> Hanoi, Vietnam


Quynh, first, please read my post on the Lubuntu mailing list.
http://www.mail-archive.com/lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net/msg01347.html

I understand what you say and I know it is a very common issue with
people installing OS on the thumb. I add this is more a problem with
grub legacy as the (hd0,x) and /dev/sdax will change with every boot -
the change effected by the bios, not the OS.It is less a problem with
grub2 as the boot searches for uuid.  

However, if the grub is installed at the external drive, and in my
opinion, is a fatal thing to do, there is every possibility of the
system not booting up. 

Also, the existence of a bug report does not imply there is anything
intrinsically wrong with it, but could be the result of the
implementation of the installation, in this case, the setting up of the
grub of the external disk to the mbr (sda, in our lingo) of the hard
disk. Again, this must not be done and the fault, if we can call it
that, of the developers, is to enable it by default. But then, how can
the system recognize that the grub is from the external and not the
hard disk and that should be the default if setting grub of a hard disk
partition? So to call the developers stupid is in my mind, unjustified,
crass and stupid in itself. Not understanding the way it works is no
justification for rudeness, and even then, if the developers have
indeed make a mistake, and they will, it is bad behaviour of any
culture to be rude.

Quynh, if there is any specific thing you want to bring up after
reading my post, please feel free to address it. As of this message, I
do not see any thing specific to address.

Regards - Goh Lip

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

Hi Goh,

Grub is in a mess, and has been for a while. When it works, it works well,
when it fails, it fails completely. This has bubbled along from 9.10 to
10.04 and is becoming a larger issue for 10.10

As per grub / burg and the really big mess that has been made, along with
people who help out on the forum area expressing their frustrations, can I
suggest you have a read of http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1516153 I
have not seen the guys and galz on the testing area having such a heated
discussion, it is quite evident that there is a *major* problem that needs
addressing.

I have only read up on that thread today, Kansassnoob is one who I rely on
for grub issues, if he is exclaiming his in-ability to support it, then I
suggest you read up all you can as he is one of those I rely on when the
tutorials do not work.

I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue of
> where he puts his grub. But I don't like his tone of calling the developers
> stupid when he himself is stupid. And if he continues in this manner, I
> would be reluctant to help him further.


So, you best have read on there, you will see that they have been called far
worse by people who actually have to deal with the fall out.

There are always two sides to a coin, it pays to take the time to see why
someone is annoyed, in this case they have every reason to be so. But it is
not a lubuntu fault, it is a grub fault which means all ubuntu shares it,
and from the dev himself, so does debian.

Regards,

Phill.


On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Goh Lip  wrote:

> On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> forwarded a bug report below.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mario
>>
>>
>
>  Hi!
>> I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
>> Environment:
>> 1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD (and can be
>> mounted as sdb device).
>> 2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant, install to SDHD
>> Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
>> 3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all device space
>> without swap.
>> Result of Install Lubuntu:
>> 1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on FIRST
>> HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation Lubintu, not use
>> it completely!
>> 2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having as
>> plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped without this
>> External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display Diagnostic
>> Message on this situation.
>> Resume:
>> It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who wrote a code for
>> use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but loading Grub
>> from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as work (loadable)
>> Device SECOND HDD or other device?!
>> And Setup absolutely have not any position for user's choosing about a
>> Device, who can be uses as place for the Master Boot Record...
>> It is absolutely abnormal situation, IMHO.
>> For example, Ubuntu (or Xbuntu) Installer has an option for choosing a
>> place for create MBR with choosing place for Grub too.
>> Thanks for possibility of understanding.
>>
>
>
> Mario, did not see the OP (abnormal) post on this list. But from what I
> gather, he has installed the grub to the external disk. Naturally, there is
> no way the system be able to boot this up.
>
> If he wants to permanently attach this external to his system and let the
> system select the option to boot, he can boot up the computer OS, assuming
> it is a Linus distro, and do a "sudo grub-install /dev/sda" on it. Then it
> will detect the Lubuntu OS on the external and make it one of the option to
> boot.
>
> If he doesn't want this to be in that option, or his computer OS is
> windows, (and that is the impression I get), at start up, select option on
> boot, either 'esc', F12 or F8 depending on his computer.
>
> I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue of
> where he puts his grub. But I don't like his tone of calling the developers
> stupid when he himself is stupid. And if he continues in this manner, I
> would be reluctant to help him further.
>
> Regards - Goh Lip
>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Goh Lip]

On 06/27/2010 01:57 AM, Mario Behling wrote:

Dear all,

forwarded a bug report below.

Best,

Mario





Hi!
I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
Environment:
1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD (and can be
mounted as sdb device).
2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant, install to SDHD
Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all device space
without swap.
Result of Install Lubuntu:
1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on FIRST
HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation Lubintu, not use
it completely!
2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having as
plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped without this
External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display Diagnostic
Message on this situation.
Resume:
It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who wrote a code for
use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but loading Grub
from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as work (loadable)
Device SECOND HDD or other device?!
And Setup absolutely have not any position for user's choosing about a
Device, who can be uses as place for the Master Boot Record...
It is absolutely abnormal situation, IMHO.
For example, Ubuntu (or Xbuntu) Installer has an option for choosing a
place for create MBR with choosing place for Grub too.
Thanks for possibility of understanding.



Mario, did not see the OP (abnormal) post on this list. But from what I 
gather, he has installed the grub to the external disk. Naturally, there 
is no way the system be able to boot this up.


If he wants to permanently attach this external to his system and let 
the system select the option to boot, he can boot up the computer OS, 
assuming it is a Linus distro, and do a "sudo grub-install /dev/sda" on 
it. Then it will detect the Lubuntu OS on the external and make it one 
of the option to boot.


If he doesn't want this to be in that option, or his computer OS is 
windows, (and that is the impression I get), at start up, select option 
on boot, either 'esc', F12 or F8 depending on his computer.


I do not think it is a bug and I think it is a more fundamental issue of 
where he puts his grub. But I don't like his tone of calling the 
developers stupid when he himself is stupid. And if he continues in this 
manner, I would be reluctant to help him further.


Regards - Goh Lip


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Phillip Whiteside]

Hi Mario,

there have been issues with grub and multiple hard drives, this affects all
ubuntu's (and also debian). There is a bug fix out, but that had not been
fully signed off (see Colin Watsons own comments).

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/496435

The solution
/work around does seem to be the one currently advised.

"OK, . it appears that having run "dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc" and making
the proper selections results in defaulting to the proper behaviour

I will however try some different scenarios as time allows, and hopefully we
can all monitor the behavior as development proceeds.

So, if this behavior stands "as-is", I'd guess reinstalling grub 2 needs to
be done with "dpkg-reconfigure" rather than "grub-install" to ensure that
the preferred behavior is saved as default.

That certainly seems simple enough."

I suggest you have a read of that bug report and try what it suggests. If
you still have a problem, then have a read on
http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=333 You are not alone, feel free
to post on there some of the guys are quite skilled in sorting this problem
out.

Regards,

Phill.

On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Mario Behling  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> forwarded a bug report below.
>
> Best,
>
> Mario
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Abnormal Terminate(R) 
> Date: Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:35 AM
> Subject: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)
> To: Mario Behling 
>
>
> Hi!
> I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
> Environment:
> 1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD (and can be
> mounted as sdb device).
> 2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant, install to SDHD
> Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
> 3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all device space
> without swap.
> Result of Install Lubuntu:
> 1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on FIRST
> HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation Lubintu, not use
> it completely!
> 2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having as
> plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped without this
> External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display Diagnostic
> Message on this situation.
> Resume:
> It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who wrote a code for
> use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but loading Grub
> from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as work (loadable)
> Device SECOND HDD or other device?!
> And Setup absolutely have not any position for user's choosing about a
> Device, who can be uses as place for the Master Boot Record...
> It is absolutely abnormal situation, IMHO.
> For example, Ubuntu (or Xbuntu) Installer has an option for choosing a
> place for create MBR with choosing place for Grub too.
> Thanks for possibility of understanding.
>
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> Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
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>
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[Lubuntu-desktop] Fwd: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)

[Mario Behling]

Dear all,

forwarded a bug report below.

Best,

Mario

-- Forwarded message --
From: Abnormal Terminate(R) 
Date: Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:35 AM
Subject: Grub Install Bug @Lubuntu-10.04 (Distribution Release)
To: Mario Behling 


Hi!
I cannot create Bug Report, because it I put it here...
Environment:
1. Using a PC, who can be uses an USB external HDD or SSD (and can be
mounted as sdb device).
2. Install Lubuntu from CD to this USB HDD (as variant, install to SDHD
Flash Card, plugged into PCs CardReader), mounted as sdb1.
3. Using Parted Editing manually, and put "/" for all device space
without swap.
Result of Install Lubuntu:
1. After normally ended Installation Process, my PC has the MBR on FIRST
HDD (!!!), but I _use not_ this device for installation Lubintu, not use
it completely!
2. On my PC cannot be starts none PS' File Systems without having as
plugged External Devices because MBD find it and stooped without this
External HDD or SDD. It has black screen only and display Diagnostic
Message on this situation.
Resume:
It's stupidly situation. And who is this developer, who wrote a code for
use as default FIRST HDD (mounted as sda) for put MBR, but loading Grub
from SECOND HDD (mounted as sdb), if the User set up as work (loadable)
Device SECOND HDD or other device?!
And Setup absolutely have not any position for user's choosing about a
Device, who can be uses as place for the Master Boot Record...
It is absolutely abnormal situation, IMHO.
For example, Ubuntu (or Xbuntu) Installer has an option for choosing a
place for create MBR with choosing place for Grub too.
Thanks for possibility of understanding.

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